Will this heaven be open to atheists who don't spend their Sundays doing productive things, but stay in bed with a hangover instead?
The Pope has said that there is a Heaven waiting for atheists regardless of having faith or not.
That means you can spend your Sundays doing more productively and you do not now have to wrestle your concience over what the Church says what you must or mustn't do.
Erm? Didn't Jesus say you've got to believe in him to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...n-8810062.html
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Will this heaven be open to atheists who don't spend their Sundays doing productive things, but stay in bed with a hangover instead?
Is that a case of The Pope hedging his bets?
"Erm? Didn't Jesus say you've got to believe in him to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?"
Christ knows.
Well we would appear to have a useless god, if we didnt already!
Still astonishes me anyone argues for this nonsense. They argue its the word of god, then ignore almost all of it in the same breath.
Just imagine what a book written by the creator of the universe could contain?!?!
There are basically 3 type of people in this world, those who can count and those who cant
Lol!
It's good to see the Rheg and Weezy show on the road again.
I'd suggest that the Pope is getting desperate for recruits....
... mind you, if the needle is large enough, even Susan Boyle could pass through it !
(just saying the needle size was never specified!)
Last edited by Green_not_greed; 13-Sep-13 at 23:19.
Green but not brainwashed
Using the sun to provide hot water.
Driving a car that gets 73 miles per gallon.....
I wouldn't use that argument. He would appear to be a master of fine tuning.
Perhaps too many religious zealots ignore the Word of God, but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist, or that He didn't create our Universe.
I hope He would explain how He did the fine tuning.
Or are you a Believer in the Squidzillions of universes paradigm - we exist in this fine-tuned Universe because it's the only one we can exist in?
Perhaps you're right - I don't know....
But the modern argument for God is the most powerful one we've ever had - in my humble opinion, of course.
Last edited by secrets in symmetry; 16-Sep-13 at 22:57. Reason: slot of spoty
Modern agument could you please explain I just dont get it. Maybe its just me being a bit slow on the uptake.
I think you'll find the answer lies with Schrodinger's Cat. Sadly, I don't know what the question is. But I'm sure one of you will!
I personally cannot find a modern arguement for god, if there is one please enlighten me as talking to imaginary beings from story books is making me look a bit mad....
The modern argument? What that? Prove he doenst exist? Intellectual honesty is required to have a debate and that is something the devout dont have.
Anyway, fine tuned for life. I assume your referring to things like the plank constant and the strength of the nuclear forces and the like and how if they were different life wouldnt exist. I would say firstly it took science to discover this stuff, and that our understanding is never complete. Anyone who argues life wouldnt exist is talking nonsense as we have no idea how a universe with differnt laws of physics would play out, especially as we have not even the faintest idea about the breadth of life in our own. Remember that. Fine tuning aint that if you have a zillion guitars. Many of them will still play a fine tune.
Secondly, the thigns a god could reveal would be astonishing. not crap like you kill a bird and dip another bird in its blood to cure leprosy!
There are basically 3 type of people in this world, those who can count and those who cant
Modern argument for god = take one learned book from millennia ago spend all that time arguing its the word of god then once challenged by science invent story about how it's not quite meant how its written and needs to reinterpreted for modern times ! Excuse me for not grasping this idea with both hands and shouting hallelujah!
Yes indeed. That's certainly the case for most of the devout on this forum. I thought they needed a little help.
Yes, fine tuning. I should perhaps have said it was the scientific argument from physical science.
It's not just fine tuning for life, it's a lot more than that. It's fine tuning for most of the features of our universe!
You don't have to change much for the proton (and hence hydrogen) to be unstable, for the deuteron not to exist, for atoms not to exist, for biological molecules not to exist, ..., (all the usual "life" stuff goes here), ..., for stars not to exist, for the universe itself to be the size of a pea, etc....
The zillion guitars form part of the escape from God via a multiverse. Perhaps the latter is the right idea. Perhaps there's some sort of self-organised criticality that we don't understand.
I don't know....
You dont know......thats the point. Religion is ignorance by another name.
Quite possible there is a supreme creator. It must remain in the realms of unicorns though until it can be shown, and by definition anything that cant be disproven isnt science. Such honesty is beyond the devout, and when it strikes them to a man you have an athiest.
Again I wouldnt et itno the arguemnt about the make up of atoms and how things could change. We havent the foggiest about what could then be possible, and such speculation is just a 21st century form of the semi barbarians who sat and pondered god in the 6th century.
There are basically 3 type of people in this world, those who can count and those who cant
Thank you all for comments. Much appreciated. Now all is clear as mud but interesting mud.
We know much more now than we did in the sixth century, which makes today's discussions so much more meaningful.
Your definition of science is too narrow in my opinion. There are many hypotheses that can't be tested - and hence disproven - yet.
The "yet" is important.
Some may be disproven in a decade. Some may take longer. Others we're not sure about. They're still part of science - of a sort - albeit of the theoretical ilk.
The fine-tuning problem concerns the constants of nature. If you change them just a tiny bit, then just about everything in the universe (including the universe itself) changes so much that human life can't exist. How can that happen by accident?
There are two popular explanations of this effect:
One is that we live in one of a squidzillion universes, each of which has different constants (and perhaps laws) of Nature. We live in this one because it's the only one we can live in. This is sometimes called the (weak) anthropic principle.
A second is that "God done it".
Weezy might explain why he believes the second answer is no answer at all.
Last edited by secrets in symmetry; 19-Sep-13 at 23:07.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
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