Dangerous Immigrants

[JAWS]

How much longer can the Government get away with the pretence that it has Immigration Problems under control before there is a backlash from the public.

It is bad enough that Illegal Immigrants are allowed to come and go almost at will. Those who are caught and are found to have no excuse to be here are rarely removed.

It now comes to light, that the Government have allowed over one thousand Convicted Criminals who's sentence included a deportation order to be enforced at the end of their sentence have been allowed to wander off at the end of their sentence and simply disappear.
Many are violent and very dangerous including murderers, rapists and other sexual offences, paedophiles, drug importers, drug dealers, burglars and people who have committed manslaughter, serious assaults and false imprisonment.

This has been occurring, it would appear, for at least the last seven years. The Governments response is a feeble, "We are going to try and find them!"
Well, I really am glad about that. Who's going to bet against the suggestion that they never find the majority of them and they just drag their feet until the fuss has died down and they can go back to turning their backs on the problem and pretending, once again, that it doesn't exist?

[fred]

It now comes to light, that the Government have allowed over one thousand Convicted Criminals who's sentence included a deportation order to be enforced at the end of their sentence have been allowed to wander off at the end of their sentence and simply disappear.
Many are violent and very dangerous including murderers, rapists and other sexual offences, paedophiles, drug importers, drug dealers, burglars and people who have committed manslaughter, serious assaults and false imprisonment.

There is a lot of concern that these immigrants are putting British criminals out of work but myself I think they are doing the sort of crimes our criminals just don't want to do anymore and are prepared to do them for more hours for less money.

Sometimes I think our government is positively encouraging crime. It allows them to introduce lots of draconian new laws which infringe on everyones civil liberties and removes everyones freedom. Lets them form what looks suspiciously like the UK branch of the FBI. Allows them to introduce compulsory Identity Cards which they said in their manifesto would be voluntary and stop the House of Lords from blocking them without everyone making a fuss.

Maybe a better solution to the crime problem would have been to just give the police the money and resources they needed to do the job but that wouldn't mean Britain edging one step at a time closer to a police state with the full approval of a scared population.

[badger]

One thing puzzled me about this story (well, lots really but one in particular) - if these criminals are marked for deportation after they have served their sentences why don't they cut out a step and just deport them straightaway? Save a lot of our money keeping and feeding them in prison as well as all the admin. and might even act as a deterrent if a certain sector of the immigrant population knew that the punishment for crime was deportation.

I don't know how they decide which criminals are to be deported but presumably there are criteria for this so it shouldn't be difficult. Seems simply silly to keep them in prison at vast expense, not to say adding to huge problem of overcrowding, if they're going to deport them at the end of it. Or am I missing something?

[fred]

I don't know how they decide which criminals are to be deported but presumably there are criteria for this so it shouldn't be difficult. Seems simply silly to keep them in prison at vast expense, not to say adding to huge problem of overcrowding, if they're going to deport them at the end of it. Or am I missing something?

Sounds to me like that would mean having different laws for different people, I don't think that would be a road I'd want us to go down.

[_Ju_]

One thing puzzled me about this story (well, lots really but one in particular) - if these criminals are marked for deportation after they have served their sentences why don't they cut out a step and just deport them straightaway? Save a lot of our money keeping and feeding them in prison as well as all the admin. and might even act as a deterrent if a certain sector of the immigrant population knew that the punishment for crime was deportation.

The family of an abused child or murder victim will not appreciate the miserly sentences to be commuted to deportation so that they can live their lives free back home. Or do you think that removal from British soil is dire, cruel and unusual punishment?

[scotsboy]

How come these illegal immigrant that are released are dangerous - i thought they would have just been rehabilitated. Are they any more dangerous than "our" ones that are routinely released into society to re-offend. It seems to me this is just more Xenophobia.

If they need to be deported, deport them.

[badger]

Sounds to me like that would mean having different laws for different people, I don't think that would be a road I'd want us to go down.

Surely we do though? After all most people don't get deported on release. All I'm saying is, if they're going to be deported anyway why not do it straightaway.

[badger]

The family of an abused child or murder victim will not appreciate the miserly sentences to be commuted to deportation so that they can live their lives free back home. Or do you think that removal from British soil is dire, cruel and unusual punishment?

I think for many deportation would be worse than a spell in one of our prisons. It's not as though they're going to be rehabilitated and these days, apart from loss of freedom and possible abuse from other prisoners, a "miserly sentence" is hardly sufficient punishment from the point of view of the victim's family. How often do we hear families protest at short sentences or early release?

If someone really wants to live in this country, the least they can do is not commit violent crimes. Presumably they had good reason to come here so returning to their homes might be a worse option than prison. It would also reduce the risk of re-offending which seems all too common now. I'm not suggesting it for anyone other than those who will be deported anyway.

[fred]

Surely we do though? After all most people don't get deported on release. All I'm saying is, if they're going to be deported anyway why not do it straightaway.

No, we have one law for all. If you rob a bank then the penalty is prison, if you enter the country illegaly or break the conditions of entry then the penalty is deportation, as who you are.

Suppose a British person robbed a bank and was found guilty but the Group4 driver was new and dropped him off at Heathrow instead of the Scrubs by mistake and he hops on a plane to the Ukrain? Should we leave him there or should he be extradited and put in prison? How about the British criminals sunning themselves on the beach in Spain or South America? Is that punishment enough?

[badger]

No, we have one law for all. If you rob a bank then the penalty is prison, if you enter the country illegaly or break the conditions of entry then the penalty is deportation, as who you are.

Suppose a British person robbed a bank and was found guilty but the Group4 driver was new and dropped him off at Heathrow instead of the Scrubs by mistake and he hops on a plane to the Ukrain? Should we leave him there or should he be extradited and put in prison? How about the British criminals sunning themselves on the beach in Spain or South America? Is that punishment enough?

Fred - I don't think you're hearing me! I'm talking about immigrants who are supposed to be deported on release from prison. Until all this blew up I had no idea this happened but that's what all this fuss is about - a large number of foreign criminals who due to administrative bungling were released back into the community at the end of their sentences instead of being deported. I'm not talking about British criminals or indeed immigrant criminals who are entitled to remain in the country. I'm talking about the ones whose sentence was that they be deported when they had served their time (see Jaws' opening post). That's all.

[scotsboy]

There are bigger criminals who will cause you more damage that will never do time.

[fred]

Fred - I don't think you're hearing me! I'm talking about immigrants who are supposed to be deported on release from prison. Until all this blew up I had no idea this happened but that's what all this fuss is about - a large number of foreign criminals who due to administrative bungling were released back into the community at the end of their sentences instead of being deported. I'm not talking about British criminals or indeed immigrant criminals who are entitled to remain in the country. I'm talking about the ones whose sentence was that they be deported when they had served their time (see Jaws' opening post). That's all.

No, they arn't sentenced to be deported, there is no legal sentence of deportation. It may be that someone is deported as a result of committing the crime, if the crime was connected with terrorism, if it was a serious crime committed by someone who was not a national or within five years of becoming a national then these are reasons why a person can be deported but the deportation is not a punishment for the crime, it is completely seperate from the sentencing for the crime.

When it comes to the sentencing for the crime everyone must be treated equally, their nationality can't influence the judge when he decides on the sentence, British or foreign they must all be treated the same.

[mysophales]

There are bigger criminals who will cause you more damage that will never do time.

Your spot on there, they are called the government.

[JAWS]

To clarify, the criminals concerned have all been tried, convicted, sentenced and recommended for deportation as soon as they have served their sentence.
It matters not if they are illegal immigrants or not, they are people who are not British Citizens or Citizens of an EU Country.

What makes matters worse is the blatant evasions and lies being told in order to move the blame from the politicians concerned.
The situation is not one which has come out of the blue, it is one which the Home Office and several Home Secretaries have been well aware of for some time.

The previous Inspector of Prisons reported the problem to the Home Secretary as far back as 2001 as a matter needing urgent attention. He made the very sensible suggestion that all the requisite enquiries and paperwork should be completed whilst the criminal was still in custody rather than incur the additional problems and expense of releasing them into the Community and then having to find them in order for that to be done.

Those who have been convicted of murder will have received the mandatory life sentence and on release will be "On License form Prison", those convicted of crimes involving sex or paedophilia should be on the various Offenders Registers. Both those categories alone mean the appropriate authorities should be aware of their whereabouts which they obviously are not.

In the period since the current Home Secretary admits he has been aware of the problem in excess of 200 more have been allowed to disappear completely.

The details of some of them are so sketchy that they seem not to appear on the Police National Computer as having been convicted of a crime.

What makes matters more disgraceful was the suggestion made on the day this was dragged out of the Government that it was a wonderful example of how well the Public Accounts Committee and the Parliamentary Committee systems were working.

Should I ever have to appear in Court I shall be using the defence that I have appeared there as proof that the Police and the Justice System is working effectively so nothing further needs to be done with me and I should be allowed to go free.

Is anybody else willing to try that as a defence or do you suspect that the court might not see the joke?

Were things working as they should be the convicts concerned should have been taken straight from prison on their release and put on the first plane back to their country of origin.

How many other countries would be so pathetically lax in their handling of such people?

[_Ju_]

I think for many deportation would be worse than a spell in one of our prisons. It's not as though they're going to be rehabilitated and these days, apart from loss of freedom and possible abuse from other prisoners, a "miserly sentence" is hardly sufficient punishment from the point of view of the victim's family. How often do we hear families protest at short sentences or early release?

If someone really wants to live in this country, the least they can do is not commit violent crimes. Presumably they had good reason to come here so returning to their homes might be a worse option than prison. It would also reduce the risk of re-offending which seems all too common now. I'm not suggesting it for anyone other than those who will be deported anyway.

Your take is "interesting", for want of a stronger term. Returning home to their families, in a country where they speak their own language, and with the option of living their lives free there, or even in another country as immigrants would be a punishment worse than imprisonment in the UK? Ok...if you say so (but I think you hold the standard of life in the UK very, very high above the mere rest of the world).

Still,you did not adress the basic question: however short, inadequate and lenient, are the family members of victims not entitled to AT LEAST that punishment before deportation? I think that letting them get on with their lives, albeit out of the country, is re-victimizing the families and victims of crime.

[badger]

Your take is "interesting", for want of a stronger term. Returning home to their families, in a country where they speak their own language, and with the option of living their lives free there, or even in another country as immigrants would be a punishment worse than imprisonment in the UK? Ok...if you say so (but I think you hold the standard of life in the UK very, very high above the mere rest of the world).

Still,you did not adress the basic question: however short, inadequate and lenient, are the family members of victims not entitled to AT LEAST that punishment before deportation? I think that letting them get on with their lives, albeit out of the country, is re-victimizing the families and victims of crime.

I am assuming, and I could be wrong, that the people we are talking about had very good reason for leaving their own country and do not want to return there so forced return would be punishment. They could be returning to persecution or poverty but I think it's highly unlikely they will be welcomed back with open arms to a comfortable life. If that were the case, why did they come here in the first place?

If I were a victim, or relative, I would infinitely prefer that the criminal be safely out of the country, hopefully never to be seen again - although with our lax immigration procedures I'm afraid that's not a certainty. One complaint heard often from families is that someone who has hurt them has been released back into their own community and they have to risk meeting them.

[badger]

To clarify, the criminals concerned have all been tried, convicted, sentenced and recommended for deportation as soon as they have served their sentence.
It matters not if they are illegal immigrants or not, they are people who are not British Citizens or Citizens of an EU Country.

Exactly - just what I was trying, but obviously failed, to say.

[scotsboy]

I "thought" that they had not even been considered for deportation, and that the mechanism for doing so was not established.

[JAWS]

I "thought" that they had not even been considered for deportation, and that the mechanism for doing so was not established.

That is the whole problem. The reason for them not having been considered for deportation is that, despite the Government having been warned at least as early as 2001 that the situation was spiralling out of control, they have done exactly nothing.
This is just another example of their idea of "Joined up Government", the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing and do not even know that they are attached to the same body in the Home Office.

Everybody has assumed it was somebody else's responsibility and as a result of that nobody has taken any action.
All the parts are there but have been left scattered all over the place.

The Home Office, who have responsibility for all the different parts have never bothered to create a workable system to solve the problem.
They have simply kept quiet and taken no action in the hope that nobody would notice that the situation even existed.

Now they have been cornered and forced to admit the debacle exists and it has since become obvious they were trying to hide it they are trying to wriggle out of the situation by pretending it could not be helped.

Can anybody believe that if one of us went to Burma or Brazil and were recommended for deportation after serving a prison term that we would be allowed to walk out of prison and simply wander off?
I rather suspect that once the sentence was served we would not even to be able to enjoy the view on the way to the airport to catch our free flight back to Britain.

The Government are trying to wriggle out of their responsibility by pretending that nothing could be done to prevent the situation.
How pathetic can they get? They even make Basil Fawlty look competent by comparison.

[fred]

I am assuming, and I could be wrong, that the people we are talking about had very good reason for leaving their own country and do not want to return there so forced return would be punishment. They could be returning to persecution or poverty but I think it's highly unlikely they will be welcomed back with open arms to a comfortable life. If that were the case, why did they come here in the first place?

If they were returning to persecution we wouldn't be able to deport them anyway, that would contravene the European Convention on Human Rights.

If they were in the country illegally then they could be deported anyway, even if they were found not guilty of the crime.