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Thread: Are you on the fence over Scottish independence?

  1. #21

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    I'm not going to argue with the sentiments you have expressed there for I share most of them.

    I want to live in a nuclear-free, ecologially and socially responsible world too. But, if we keep doing what we are doing we will keep getting what we've got. Westminster governments have repeatedly shown they are not fully committed to the better world you describe.

    It really is time to call a halt to the nonsense and find a new way. I steadfastly believe that in Scotland we have an opportunity to make a difference if only we would grasp the nettle of independence. OK, we may not be able to change the world but if other countries see what we can do they may follow suit. Scotland has already impressed when it comes to matters ecological with many other groups and nations taking heed of what the SG is trying to achieve.

    I am not suggesting that independence is a panacea for every ill but at least it means we won't be stuck with accepting the policies of a government we didn't vote for.

  2. #22

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    If you accept democracy, you accept the results of every election. You don't try and break national results down into 'area' results, because it suits your view. There are many parts of England that never vote in a Tory but accept the result. What's so special about Scotland?

    As for "accepting the policies of a government we didn't vote for", that could apply to a huge chunk of Scottish voters. More voted for Con/Lab/Lib Dem than voted for the SNP/Greens, yet we're forced to live with them governing us.

    That's politics.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodfellers View Post
    You don't try and break national results down into 'area' results, because it suits your view. There are many parts of England that never vote in a Tory but accept the result. What's so special about Scotland?

    You have just put your finger on the problem. You describe Scotland as an area and put it on a par with parts of England.

    What is so special about Scotland is that we are a country and are supposedly an equal partner in the Union. Yet how we vote makes no difference as we get the government the other "equal partner" votes for. Tell me that is democratic.

    Oh, an PS - You don't get to talk only about "National" results because it suits your view.

  4. #24

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    Corky….
    Population of Scotland…5.4 million.
    Population of England…. 56 million…..

    Do you see there is a ‘difference’!

  5. #25
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    Not even remotely near the fence.
    We have had a vote on this less then 10 years ago and it was a fairly clear result.
    We are now in the worst financial crisis we have seen, I cant see how breaking away at this point in time would be a good idea.
    How about respecting the result of the democratic vote we have had already, instead of continually wanting to re run a vote until they get the result they crave.
    Fingers crossed the courts tell the Fuhrer to bolt.
    Last edited by mi16; 22-Oct-22 at 00:14.
    W.A.T.P.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horseman View Post
    Corky….
    Population of Scotland…5.4 million.
    Population of England…. 56 million…..

    Do you see there is a ‘difference’!
    Oh yes, I see the difference. And Becasue of it Scotland has no say whatsoever.

    Population of Malta - 441,543
    Population of Germany - 83,783,942

    Do you see the difference? Only this time Malta has a seat at the table and the power of veto.

    Another big difference is that any member state can leave the EU if it so wishes whereas in the UK no member state can leave unless England wishes.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    Oh yes, I see the difference. And Becasue of it Scotland has no say whatsoever.

    Population of Malta - 441,543
    Population of Germany - 83,783,942

    Do you see the difference? Only this time Malta has a seat at the table and the power of veto.

    Another big difference is that any member state can leave the EU if it so wishes whereas in the UK no member state can leave unless England wishes.

    Yes I see it…But u live in Scotland! It has been ‘The Public’s Choice’!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    Oh yes, I see the difference. And Becasue of it Scotland has no say whatsoever.

    Population of Malta - 441,543
    Population of Germany - 83,783,942

    Do you see the difference? Only this time Malta has a seat at the table and the power of veto.

    Another big difference is that any member state can leave the EU if it so wishes whereas in the UK no member state can leave unless England wishes.
    The rest of the UK did not want Scotland to leave pre 2014, yet we were allowed the choice, we chose to remain.
    And in remaining, we chose to continue with the democratic system of the UK.
    But you know this, you just wont accept it.
    W.A.T.P.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    The rest of the UK did not want Scotland to leave pre 2014, yet we were allowed the choice, we chose to remain.
    And in remaining, we chose to continue with the democratic system of the UK.
    But you know this, you just wont accept it.
    And there we have it folks. I knew it would happen one day and that day has finally arrived.

    "...yet we were allowed the choice.". ALLOWED.

    That one word sums up the nature of the relationship between the countries in the UK. Scotland was allowed to have a vote. Wow.

    The people of Scotland are sovereign and we don't need to be allowed. We will decide.

    The Claim of Right from 1989 quite clearly states the following:-

    We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.

  10. #30

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    Good job The Bill of Rights has never had or claimed any legal force. So worthless.

    I think Alex Salmond is going to try and pursue all sorts of ancient legal routes to try and get a vote. I wouldn't hold your breath.

    We voted to remain in the UK,

    We will vote again to remain in the UK, if, and it is a big if, the highest court in the UK 'allow' us, but that's not looking to promising, and with the news Boris might be making a comeback, getting the UK govt to agree to a vote isn't looking too good either!

    Long live the union!
    Last edited by Goodfellers; 22-Oct-22 at 15:16. Reason: too many rrr's!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    And there we have it folks. I knew it would happen one day and that day has finally arrived.

    "...yet we were allowed the choice.". ALLOWED.

    That one word sums up the nature of the relationship between the countries in the UK. Scotland was allowed to have a vote. Wow.

    The people of Scotland are sovereign and we don't need to be allowed. We will decide.

    The Claim of Right from 1989 quite clearly states the following:-

    We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.
    Oh shut up Corky you massive throbber, its a figure of speech, the sex pest requested a referendum and he was told that he could have one.
    Why does it not just throw a referendum then?
    Why is the Fuhrer wasting my money at the Supreme Court if it does not need the sanction from Westminster?
    Last edited by mi16; 22-Oct-22 at 13:21.
    W.A.T.P.

  12. #32

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    You go on and on about respecting democracy and yet you can barely conceal your glee because you think you have all the so-called legal angles covered to prevent democracy actually happening.

    Just sit back for a couple of minutes and really think about what you have just said.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    Oh shut up Corky you massive throbber, its a figure of speech, the sex pest requested a referendum and he was told that he could have one.
    Why does it not just throw a referendum then?
    Why is the Fuhrer wasting my money at the Supreme Court if it does not need the sanction from Westminster?
    I'm preserving this just in case you are thinking of deleting it. I want everyone to see this.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    I'm preserving this just in case you are thinking of deleting it. I want everyone to see this.


    Ps you almost always 'preserve' what others say....Quite sinister really, do you plan to hold us all to account at some time in the future?
    Last edited by Goodfellers; 22-Oct-22 at 13:41.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    You go on and on about respecting democracy and yet you can barely conceal your glee because you think you have all the so-called legal angles covered to prevent democracy actually happening.

    Just sit back for a couple of minutes and really think about what you have just said.
    What are you on about now Throbby McThrobberson?
    We had a vote, the majority said they wanted to remain, it was sold to us all as a once in a generation thing. Yet here we are well under a decade later debating the next time (which we have been doing since 2016), when we vote to remain again, it will leave office and the next General will step up and continue to try and deliver the mission.
    W.A.T.P.

  16. #36

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    It seems like "fence sitters" might be more inclined to vote Yes if Scotland follows a social responsibilty agenda following independence. A recent Panelbase survey found that 61% of voters would choose Yes in such circumstances.

    One thing is for sure: HMG has no social responsibility agenda. If you want to live in a fairer society then you won't find that by remaining in the Union.

    Independence for a fairer Scotland.

  17. #37

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    The latest Panelbase survey also shows a slight lead for the 'No' vote. This is despite everything that's going on in Westminster and the cost of living crisis. 'Fence sitters', in my opinion are more interested in their own financial position rather than social responsibility at this time.

    Vote for stability, vote for Scotland within the UK.

    https://www.nationalworld.com/politi...2-vote-3885712

    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodfellers View Post
    'Fence sitters', in my opinion are more interested in their own financial position rather than social responsibility at this time.

    Any thoughts Fulmar?

  19. #39

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    I wasn't going to continue posting as I thought it was all going to turn nasty on here again! Random thoughts, that is all they are:
    I don't think that there is an appetite for an Indyref 2 on Nicola Sturgeon's timescale as recent polls suggest otherwise but I don't think anyone who believes in democracy should be saying that it ought never to be held, ever again.
    I do not think that an enormous change like that should be implemented unless there is a commanding yes vote. At present there is a fifty fifty spilt pretty much and all that will lead to is continuing and possibly worse division and I don't want to see that, personally. I can remember when referendum votes were supposed to only be taken notice of if there was a 2/3 majority for change.
    I believe in being united with as many peoples and nations as possible and not being separated off. I certainly wanted to remain in Europe and think that Brexit has brought nothing but trouble. The people in England and Wales and N.I are the same as me- I don't want to feel that I've rejected them.
    I think that if Labour get in next time round- and I believe that they will- then there will be so much change for the better.
    I am not sure if I will vote even if there is an Indyref 2 because although I'll be affected by the outcome of independence, of course. But because I am older now, I am not going to be affected for as long as the young people who want it and will probably vote for it. The argument that it is the old who have brought about the mess the world is in (even though we did not understand that we were doing it at the time) has resonance with me.
    But I can't bring myself to vote for what I see as yet more economic chaos and hardship for people (and I think that is what independence will bring)- even though I recognise the desire for it by so many and the ideological 'pull' behind it. But I am ideologically attracted to being united with people and not split off from them- as said above.
    Is that fence sitting? I dunno.

  20. #40

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    For anyone who is sitting on the fence might I suggest you spend some time looking at Believe in Scotland who present a vision for Scotland that you will never find in the Unionist press.

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