Independance now certainly handed over on a plate

**rob murray** · 01-Oct-12, 12:02

Does anyone else think that "new" Labour announcements challenging the concept and affordability of universal benefits ( free bus passes, prescriptions education etc ), starting with Johan Lamont on Thursday, re endorsed over the week end by Ed, "Mr Bean", Milliband, has handed over the keys to independence to the SNP's...a simple arguement....

1 Who delivered universal non means tested benefits to the Scottish populace...answer the SNP
2 WHo wants this ahem " re evaluated"...almost every other party
3 Which way will people vote...for parties who will take, or for the party who gave ( never mind on going costs )

Game set and match Id say. Well played Alexi and co....and I am chocking as I write this....what were labour playing at ???????

**sids** · 01-Oct-12, 12:14

Certainly can't argue with free money.

**John Little** · 01-Oct-12, 12:25

You are not wrong Rob. Bread and circuses is a very powerful argument.

Reminds me of John Smith wanting to raise income tax.

Unless Labour has a radical re-think then the secessionists may very well carry the day.

**ducati** · 01-Oct-12, 12:28

Luckily, no-one in their right mind listens with any seriousness to Ed M.

**RecQuery** · 01-Oct-12, 13:54

I'm really surprised there aren't factions within the other parties that are supporting if not campaigning for independence or maximum devolution. I notice that even the Guardian is criticising johann lamont and the Labour Party.

**Corrie 3** · 01-Oct-12, 14:27

Originally Posted by ducati

Luckily, no-one in their right mind listens with any seriousness to Dave and George!!!!

You are right there Duke, what a pair of Wallies!!

C3.

**RecQuery** · 01-Oct-12, 14:35

I find it difficult to actually tell some people on the front benches apart at times. Cameron. Clegg and Miliband especially. They all have similar backgrounds and career progressions with just different colour ties. I'm pretty sure you could randomise the front benches and be hard pressed to tell the difference.

**Alrock** · 01-Oct-12, 17:06

Originally Posted by rob murray

1 Who delivered universal non means tested benefits to the Scottish populace...answer the SNP

Correct

Originally Posted by rob murray

2 WHo wants this ahem " re evaluated"...almost every other party

Plus Me

Originally Posted by rob murray

3 Which way will people vote...for parties who will take, or for the party who gave ( never mind on going costs )

Depends who they give & take from

For example... Is it right that a pensioner on a £600pw pension gets a free bus pass, free TV licence, winter fuel payment... etc... when someone struggling on £65pw JSA doesn't?

**Corrie 3** · 01-Oct-12, 17:14

Originally Posted by Alrock

. Is it right that a pensioner on a £600pw pension

Let me know how they get that much will you Alrock? I struggle on my £130 pw pension and would love to know how to get £600pw!!!

C3.

**Alrock** · 01-Oct-12, 17:18

Originally Posted by Corrie 3

Let me know how they get that much will you Alrock? I struggle on my £130 pw pension and would love to know how to get £600pw!!!

C3.

Be a lucky b... that had a very well paid job when retiring with a final salary pension paid by the government.

**Rheghead** · 01-Oct-12, 17:18

Wasn't Nicola Sturgeon asked how she reconciled getting free prescriptions when £200,000 was coming into her household?

**weezer 316** · 01-Oct-12, 19:58

Originally Posted by rob murray

Does anyone else think that "new" Labour announcements challenging the concept and affordability of universal benefits ( free bus passes, prescriptions education etc ), starting with Johan Lamont on Thursday, re endorsed over the week end by Ed, "Mr Bean", Milliband, has handed over the keys to independence to the SNP's...a simple arguement....

1 Who delivered universal non means tested benefits to the Scottish populace...answer the SNP
2 WHo wants this ahem " re evaluated"...almost every other party
3 Which way will people vote...for parties who will take, or for the party who gave ( never mind on going costs )

Game set and match Id say. Well played Alexi and co....and I am chocking as I write this....what were labour playing at ???????

1: Who has a £10bn hole in their vague post independence budget that donest have to worry right now about non means tested benefits......The SNP
2: Who has not explained how they will pay for these benefits, or eve what currency they would pay it in.....the SNP
3: Who has to yet to explain what they are going to do about any of this......the SNP

**Oddquine** · 01-Oct-12, 22:46

Originally Posted by RecQuery

I'm really surprised there aren't factions within the other parties that are supporting if not campaigning for independence or maximum devolution. I notice that even the Guardian is criticising johann lamont and the Labour Party.

There is a Labour for an Independent Scotland on the internet, and a Labour Voters for Independence on FaceBook. In fact here are lots of groups ranging from football fans of some teams to women in favour...but unfortunately for Scottish choice at elections after Independence, no LibDem or Tory equivalents (though I may have missed them.)

I have always gone on the principle that you hope for the best but prepare for the worst....which does not appear to be a consideration by UK Political Parties who appear to have decided that Independence is just not going to happen, so are not inclined to do what the SNP, the Greens, the SSP and the SDA are doing....preparing just on the off-chance that Scotland votes yes..

**Oddquine** · 02-Oct-12, 01:03

Originally Posted by weezer 316

1: Who has a £10bn hole in their vague post independence budget that donest have to worry right now about non means tested benefits......The SNP
2: Who has not explained how they will pay for these benefits, or eve what currency they would pay it in.....the SNP
3: Who has to yet to explain what they are going to do about any of this......the SNP

Why would you expect the SNP to be the government in 2016, that you are so fixated on what they will do and do not worry about what every other political party will do? Out of interest, care to link me to the site you got your figures from? I haven't seen any SNP figures for a post-independence budget..... and I kinda think if they existed, I'd have found them.

1. Who has an ever increasing borrowing requirement and a reducing level of debt repayment..DESPITE having 100 % of the oil/gas revenues and Scottish tax income? Who hasn't balanced a budget in my lifetime? Whose black hole is structural and one helluva sight bigger than 10 billion you quote for Scotland....why..the UK, that's who.

2. I should think, If I were to accept your assumption that the SNP will be the Government of Scotland after Independence, they would pay for them the same way the UK does..by borrowing, or is that too obvious? But having a smaller population, we would need to borrow a lot less. The same people will pay a large proportion of those benefits as pay for them in the UK, mostly the taxpayer on PAYE, without the ability to take advantage of tax avoidance/evasion schemes..but hopefully the richest taxpayers in Scotland will be obliged to start paying their fair share. You shouldn't assume that the way the UK political parties pee our money into the buying votes drain automatically equates to what a Scottish Government will do anyway.Re currency, we will use sterling at least until it is more bother to us than it is worth....and nobody can stop us, however much they throw tantrums. Have you never noticed the intention to stick with sterling being regularly mentioned in the media.....because I have.

3.The SNP don't have to explain anything...what makes you think they have that obligation? Before 2016 and that election, the SNP's vision of how an an independent Scotland will work is no more valid or definitive than mine, or Squidge's or Recquery's....or the opinions of any other pro-independence supporter. The SNP vision is only valid if the SNP are in a position to implement it...and there are no guarantees of that..so there is no requirement to produce a costed manifesto four years ahead..particularly when we don't know our financial situation. We can probably assume that the precedents in International Law, if they exist, will prevail if negotiations break down...but negotiations and a mutually agreed outcome would be by far the best and most sensible option...but we haven't had them yet.

Given the fact that 2014 is only going to be the day of the vote on Independence.....not the day that Scotland will achieve Independence if we do vote for it, the SNP doesn't actually have to do anything about how an Independent Scotland will work..all the SNP have to do, and all they have been elected to do,as the Scottish Government until 2016, is negotiate with the rUK on the division of assets and debts if we vote for Independence. That will more than likely take us up to the election in 2016, if the rUK is going to be a bad loser (and it is currently giving the impression it will be just that). The SNP will only have any say in anything if the negotiating teams get their fingers out and get everything done and dusted before 2016, while they are still the Government..and even then, come 2016 if another party gets elected there may well be change.

Even if your wishes were an obligation on the SNP, there is no way that, before the end of negotiations with the rUK over Independence, they or any other party will be 100% sure of the finances involved in costing a manifesto...so whistling for the moon has more chance of success...have fun trying it!

**Oddquine** · 02-Oct-12, 01:07

Originally Posted by Rheghead

Wasn't Nicola Sturgeon asked how she reconciled getting free prescriptions when £200,000 was coming into her household?

The same way millionaires in the UK reconcile getting child benefit, bus passes and heating allowances?

**ducati** · 02-Oct-12, 08:33

What is rUK? I keep seeing it but can't find it on Google.

**ducati** · 02-Oct-12, 08:40

Originally Posted by Oddquine

There is a Labour for an Independent Scotland on the internet, and a Labour Voters for Independence on FaceBook. In fact here are lots of groups ranging from football fans of some teams to women in favour...but unfortunately for Scottish choice at elections after Independence, no LibDem or Tory equivalents (though I may have missed them.)

I have always gone on the principle that you hope for the best but prepare for the worst....which does not appear to be a consideration by UK Political Parties who appear to have decided that Independence is just not going to happen, so are not inclined to do what the SNP, the Greens, the SSP and the SDA are doing....preparing just on the off-chance that Scotland votes yes..

Why waste the time, effort and more importantly Money. The SNP a doing enough of that for everyone...

I hope after the resounding No! vote, the yes voters will be sent the bill because I ain't paying for it.

**pmcd** · 02-Oct-12, 08:59

Ducati - "rUK" is secessionist flimflam for "The remainder of the UK after Scotland has braveheartedly declared total independence" (apart from Queen, custom and practice, and sterling). Imagine, if you like, a disembodied tail trying to wag a dog. That's it. Impressive, huh?