Lost after Independence

[ducati]

Scottish Questions BBC last night.

Categorical confirmation that Type 26 Destroyer would not be built in Scotland.

Further, it is unlikely that any UK defence procurement will go to Scotland. That relates to 40,000 jobs in 800 Companies. I can see the 800 firms, rather than losing significant work, will move south.

This is not scaremongering, it will happen.

Next!

[Gronnuck]

Why would anyone be surprised? Under EU regulations all shipbuilding contracts have to be open to competitive tender across the member states, except defence shipbuilding contracts. Since Scotland would no longer be part of the UK then the UK Government can, quite legitimately award UK naval contracts to UK shipbuilders.
IMO the SNP have yet to appreciate the impact of the loss of defence related work when we separate. The impact will be felt not just by those directly employed but the many other businesses that run alongside.

[Corrie 3]

Surprisingly I can find no news links to this statement on the BBC site. If it were true I would have thought it would have at least made headline news in Scotland at the very least!
Perhaps you have a link Duke?

C3.

[RecQuery]

This just in, independence will cause cancer and punch babies!

This is not a lie, it's true, honest... no really

[gerry4]

Two current orders for naval ships have gone aboard, not sure which country. So why not after an independent Scotland? Also have you heard that BAE is hoping to merge with EADS on a 40-60 basis. That means UK won't have a arms company.

[Gronnuck]

Two current orders for naval ships have gone aboard, not sure which country. So why not after an independent Scotland? Also have you heard that BAE is hoping to merge with EADS on a 40-60 basis. That means UK won't have a arms company.

The MOD chose the South Korean firm Daewoo to build four new Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker ships in a contract worth £452m. There is no doubt these are crucial to the Navy’s ability to project influence around the world.
But it is the building of future fighting ships that should give us cause for concern. With Barrow building submarines, Glasgow, Rosyth and Portsmouth are the only places left that can build complex fighting ships. If Scotland goes independent it is perfectly feasible that Glasgow and Rosyth could lose out to Portsmouth. The future is bleak given the cuts to the navy budget and the delays to the building of the proposed new frigates; I can see why Glasgow and Rosyth could lose out.

[ducati]

Surprisingly I can find no news links to this statement on the BBC site. If it were true I would have thought it would have at least made headline news in Scotland at the very least!
Perhaps you have a link Duke?

C3.

No. I watched it on the bloomin' telly. I thought you people would be interested. Scottish Questions is only on once a month!

[ducati]

This just in, independence will cause cancer and punch babies!

This is not a lie, it's true, honest... no really

Doesn't anyone watch the telly?

[ducati]

And don't underestimate the vindictivness the UK will be capable of. Alex thinks he will be gaining a trading partner. Yeh right!

Watch the fall off of UK Gov. contracts now, just in case.

[squidge]

Are you surprised no one watched Scottish Questions Ducati? It is a DREADFUL thing to watch - sycophantic and confrontational and rarely do we hear anything other than "does the RH gentlemen not agree that Scotland is stupid to want indpendence?" or variations on that theme. I watch it every month in the hope that it will get better but it never does!

This is a concern without a doubt and it was discussed here in May http://www.defencemanagement.com/new...y.asp?id=19777. Quite how this squares with Philip Hammond when he said "It's explicitly not our decision where BAE builds the Type 26s. It's a commercial decision they will have to make." which suggests that the type 26 may actually BE able to be built in Scotland. The article is here - http://www.defencemanagement.com/new...y.asp?id=19613 and was reported int he Daily Record http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/po...urvive-1116594 on the 13th February. BAE also say that if they were to close any shipyard it would likely be Portsmouth. the other thing is that although EU procurement rules allow for strategic defence contracts to be restricted the rules do not require that these contracts are restricted and so it could very well be that contracts ARE opened up simply because the rest of the UK does not have the capabilty to take on these large projects.

We do however need to hear more about how an Independent Scotland would secure work for the Scottish shipyards but there is clearly work out there. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...rigates-06268/ says that Australia, Brazil, Canada, India, Malaysia, New Zealand, and Turkey are all expressing interest in the Type 26 and so there may very well be other options open to allow Scotland to secure contracts from these countries. There are also the plans which have been floated by the SNP which says that "A Scottish defence industrial strategy and procurement plan will fill UK capability gaps in Scotland, addressing the lack of new frigates, conventional submarines and maritime patrol aircraft." so, if the SNP take us into Independence there may very well be new works to fill the gaps and address the different needs of a Scottish Defence force. If however there is a delay between independence and contracts being awarded then that is likely to cause problems.

[RecQuery]

And don't underestimate the vindictivness the UK will be capable of. Alex thinks he will be gaining a trading partner. Yeh right!

Watch the fall off of UK Gov. contracts now, just in case.

You'd be surprised how many things are internally 'exported' by Scotland to the rest of the UK, so they'd just be shooting themselves in the foot. There will be ongoing discussions for 5 years at least so any such action would really weaken their position and possibly violate EU law and regulations.

Post-UK: One side can not dictate to the other in this thing and act like petulant children, they will - despite media rhetoric - have to cooperate, discuss, compromise and generally act like reasonable adults. Each side has a variety of things it could be vindictive about, but they won't despite posturing.

Still the UK is just one trading partner from many, Scotland already exports a fair bit outside the UK.

[Rheghead]

I see that one option in the P&J is that Dounreay, Faslane etc could become sovereign enclaves of the UK after independence. Face/palm

[gerry4]

I see that one option in the P&J is that Dounreay, Faslane etc could become sovereign enclaves of the UK after independence. Face/palm

That could never legally happen. They are part of Scotland. full stop.

[Corrie 3]

Since the 1960's Scottish ship building has been run down to barely non existence by UK Governments. It will end in time anyway even if we stay in the UK IMHO.

Plenty of land locked and non land locked Countries manage without ship building and there is no reason why we cant! It is not the be all and end all of a Country by a long chalk!

C3.............

[Rheghead]

Since the 1960's Scottish ship building has been run down to barely non existence by UK Governments. It will end in time anyway even if we stay in the UK IMHO.

Plenty of land locked and non land locked Countries manage without ship building and there is no reason why we cant! It is not the be all and end all of a Country by a long chalk!

C3.............

I can see how you see that but I don't think it was a deliberate attempt by successive governments to run down shipbuilding. Perhaps you are making a political point to put the UK in a bad light but I do think we need to read history before making such sweeping judgements. First we need to seperate the two sides of shipbuilding in the UK, defence and commercial.

If they run down shipbuilding then they ran down other industries as well.

First let us deal with commercial shipbuilding. Fierce competition was faced from the rising economies after WW2 from Japan and Korea. I do not know how they did it but costs were reduced and efficiency was improved which British companies failed to keep up. You could say that the UK government let that happen but unions were reluctant to bear the sweeping changes that were needed to make British companies competitive. It was a 2 way street of blame. You could argue that privatisation was not encouraged by the immediate post war British politics that might have made the necessary changes.

Defence shipbuilding was primarily hit by the UK governments obsession with nuclear weapons. Why do you need expensive ships when a nice mushroom can do the work for you? We still needed ship to a certain level but not to the extent of pre-war levels. Now here is where you need to study carefully before making any judgements if defence shipbuilding in Scotland has been treated harshly. If you study where defence boats were built then it just cannot be supported that work in relation to building and maintenance was being denied to Scottish shipbuilders. If anything, I think Scottish shipyards were treated favorably with respect to allocation of work.

[ducati]

You'd be surprised how many things are internally 'exported' by Scotland to the rest of the UK, so they'd just be shooting themselves in the foot. There will be ongoing discussions for 5 years at least so any such action would really weaken their position and possibly violate EU law and regulations.

Post-UK: One side can not dictate to the other in this thing and act like petulant children, they will - despite media rhetoric - have to cooperate, discuss, compromise and generally act like reasonable adults. Each side has a variety of things it could be vindictive about, but they won't despite posturing.

Still the UK is just one trading partner from many, Scotland already exports a fair bit outside the UK.

Aw, I like your world, is there ice cream?

[joxville]

What you all seem to forget is that everyone loves Scotland, it's the English they hate, and since no-one is going to attack us then we have no need for warships. And if we are attacked we can line the coast with people and throw deep-fried Mars Bars at them, any country that does deep fried chocolate bars really isn't worth invading. :-)

[piratelassie]

[Why should Glasgow or Rosyth lose out to Portsmouth or any other shipyard if the contract price is right? QUOTE=Gronnuck;976072]The MOD chose the South Korean firm Daewoo to build four new Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker ships in a contract worth £452m. There is no doubt these are crucial to the Navy’s ability to project influence around the world.
But it is the building of future fighting ships that should give us cause for concern. With Barrow building submarines, Glasgow, Rosyth and Portsmouth are the only places left that can build complex fighting ships. If Scotland goes independent it is perfectly feasible that Glasgow and Rosyth could lose out to Portsmouth. The future is bleak given the cuts to the navy budget and the delays to the building of the proposed new frigates; I can see why Glasgow and Rosyth could lose out.[/QUOTE]

[Gronnuck]

To answer piratelassie’s question the MOD/Royal Navy has never in its history awarded a contract to a foreign shipyard to build a fighting ship. The RFA Tankers are not fighting ships. Contracts are due to be issued for the Type 26 Global Combat Ship in 2015; that is after Scotland decides. If Scotland chooses independence it effectively becomes a ‘foreign country’ and so it is very possible that these contracts will go to shipyards elsewhere in the UK.
Why would any Westminster government, of any hue, want to give contracts for new complex fighting ships to workers in another country?

[Alrock]

One question....

Will an Independent Scotland be ordering new ships for itself at any point in the near future & if so will they not be ordering from Scottish yards?