Burkas

[John Little]

It's a simple enough thing in't it?

If a woman wishes to wear something then should she not be allowed to?

It's a question of liberty of the subject really. The new law in France may be aimed at ending oppression of women forced to wear a veil. But what about those who want to?

Or brides?

Or masked balls?

The wee french guy has it wrong I think.

[rob1]

[QUOTE=John Little;839869]If a woman wishes to wear something then should she not be allowed to?[QUOTE]

True, but in many of these cases the woman does not have a choice. Those that do often feels pressured to do so and others feel that it is expected of them.

I was raised to believe that it was rude to talk to someone while covering your face. I still do.

Speach is not necessary just words, the tone of voice, sound of voice, accent and also facial expression play a huge role. With burkas and niqabs you can't see facial expression.

[porshiepoo]

This is one of those topics where the rights and wrongs of it can never be ironed out enough to deliver a result that will make everyone involved happy.

I understand the reason Muslim women wear the Burkha and I know it's a tradition that possibly goes back further than Islam. However, there is a lot of opposition to the wearing of them in our society and I also understand that.
Although the Burkha is a traditional, necessary and religious form of dress for Muslims it also gives a secretive, suspicious and menacing appearance especially with the current state of the War on terror (I'm not suggesting that's a correct way of thinking though).

Like I said I understand both sides and will watch closely the effects this Law has in France.

[John Little]

That is your opinion, and it is your background, race, religion, education that shapes it.

My point is that if a woman wishes to then she should be able to. The state should not have the right to prescribe what she wears.

I went to school in Thurso and I can still remember the indignation I felt when I was taught that the British government banned the wearing of Highland dress after the 45.

These actions come with value added. If a woman wishes to express her comitment to her religion, or her feelings of cultural modesty through wearing a veil then there are many precedents for women doing so throughout history. Nuns 'take the veil' do they not?

On the other hand the only men I can think of who wear veils are the Tuareg nomads of north Africa- to keep sand off their faces. There's the mudmen of Borneo of course but that is a special case.

[Gronnuck]

It's a simple enough thing in't it?

If a woman wishes to wear something then should she not be allowed to?

If only it were that simple,
The practice of covering one’s face using a burka or niqab is not mentioned in the Koran. All that is required under Islamic law is that both genders dress modestly. But you can be sure opinions are going to be polarized as arguments develop.
There will be Muslims at the radical end of the spectrum who will wear the burqa or nijab to make a political statement and cock a snook at mainstream society.
There will be zealots at the other end who will cite any number of reasons why they shouldn’t be allowed to, because it oppresses women or there are security implications.
Hopefully there will be enough opinion in the centre to moderate those on the extremes. The arguments will rage on and people will get quite heated – I shall watch this thread with interest,.

[porshiepoo]

That is your opinion, and it is your background, race, religion, education that shapes it.

My point is that if a woman wishes to then she should be able to. The state should not have the right to prescribe what she wears.

I went to school in Thurso and I can still remember the indignation I felt when I was taught that the British government banned the wearing of Highland dress after the 45.

These actions come with value added. If a woman wishes to express her comitment to her religion, or her feelings of cultural modesty through wearing a veil then there are many precedents for women doing so throughout history. Nuns 'take the veil' do they not?

On the other hand the only men I can think of who wear veils are the Tuareg nomads of north Africa- to keep sand off their faces. There's the mudmen of Borneo of course but that is a special case.

As long as it is her choice.

Shoe on the other foot: How would I feel if I went to a Muslim country and was told that if I wish to live there, work there etc I would have to wear a Burkha?
I'd probably be indignant (understatement) but I would probably head back home if I felt so against it. Having said that, if for whatever reason I had to stay in that country I would abide by their Laws and if that meant covering up in public then I'd do it.

But then I do not have any religious affliction (yes I chose the word as I do believe religion is fast becoming an affliction) that would prevent me from doing otherwise.

Like I said it's a hard one. Rights and wrongs on both sides but will never please everyone.

[gleeber]

If only it were that simple

That's right.
There was a Muslim women on newsnight last night and she never covers her head. She gets a lot of stick from her community but the main problem they have is that she is too westernised. The burka is more than an item of clothing. Its a symbol for isolation. The history of the burka has nothing to do with Islam. It comes from Persian aristocrats who demanded that all women in their court must cover their bodies from the stare of other men. It was an ownership thing. Probably still is.

[starfish]

if you chose to live in another country you should live by their rules not try to make the country live by your if you do not like thier rules why move there

[porshiepoo]

That's right.
There was a Muslim women on newsnight last night and she never covers her head. She gets a lot of stick from her community but the main problem they have is that she is too westernised. The burka is more than an item of clothing. Its a symbol for isolation. The history of the burka has nothing to do with Islam. It comes from Persian aristocrats who demanded that all women in their court must cover their bodies from the stare of other men. It was an ownership thing. Probably still is.

Yes women were considered unimportant and treated like slaves or property in Arabia before Islam.

Islam cam along and dictated a woman to be equal to a man. In fact the "Twin halves of men".

But although they may be considered equal they're certainly not given equal rights.

[golach]

I went to school in Thurso and I can still remember the indignation I felt when I was taught that the British government banned the wearing of Highland dress after the 45.

John, the Act of Proscription came in in 1747, you were not listening to your history teacher lol, it was not just the banning of wearing tartan, it included that Highland Scots could no longer bear arms, or own a Gaelic Bible, punishable by 6 months in jail, second offence was hanging or transportation.
This was a much harsher penalty than the few Euro's that the French and the Belgians too have imposed.

[nicnak]

Well me I am really gonna stick ma neck out here and probably cause a reaction but hey ho, I think that the burka should be banned, they complain about kids wearing hoodies and in many places they aren't allowed the hood up, they complain about motorcyclists wearing helmets and must take them off before entering many banks, petrol stations etc, so why not ban the burka in public areas too , if they want to wear them in their temples , churches or homes so be it but why should we have it imposed on the rest of us? I for one never trust someone who cant show their face, that is my opinion and not only that how do you know when you are in the middle of manchester it is a woman that seems to be following you in that burka? it could be a man? Feeling intimidated isnt nice either? So my choice is Ban the burka in public places, to me that seems fair and just.

[John Little]

if you chose to live in another country you should live by their rules not try to make the country live by your if you do not like thier rules why move there

Depends on the country surely? We pride ourselves on our freedoms and our tolerance.

Why should a free and democratic society be making laws about what people may and may not wear?

Acid test is whether we believe in the freedom of individuals to choose or not.

If we do not then we are no better than the tinniest of tin-pot dictators in the developing world.

[pmcd]

Here's one to throw into the pot (I'm a great fan of the burka, by the way, it cover s up a good number of things I'd rather not see!)

What's the difference between the anonymity provided by the burka, and the anonymity provided by an avatar and a pseudonym?

And which is the more frightening?

[golach]

if you chose to live in another country you should live by their rules not try to make the country live by your if you do not like their rules why move there

Fully agree with you starfish, as an ex Merchant Seaman, one of the first things we did when arriving at a new or never visited country, was to learn the do's and dont's, then try to abide by them.

[gleeber]

Here's one to throw into the pot (I'm a great fan of the burka, by the way, it cover s up a good number of things I'd rather not see!)

What's the difference between the anonymity provided by the burka, and the anonymity provided by an avatar and a pseudonym?

And which is the more frightening?

One big and obvious difference is the orgs anonymity is equal whereas Islams isnt.
Both can be equally frightening though.

[theone]

The banning of the Burka is obviously going to cause some debate.

But regardless of what side of the argument you are on, I think it's important to see this has little to do with the oppression of women, the removal of choice or even a security issue.

The ban is the result of the problems in France, and elsewhere, where integration hasn't worked as well as it might. Instead of being one happy society the population is increasingly categorised and segregated.

Wherever there are people who define themselves based on religion, race, or creed, then the society as a whole will be divided. Unless all these religions, races and creeds can come together under a single "banner" there will always be an us and them mentality.

I think the Burka ban is a manifestation of this, and an early one at that. The banning of minarets by the Swiss was another. I'm sure there will be more.

[Kells]

I went to school in Stirling where I was taught that the English invaded Scotland and banned the wearing of Highland dress to try and remove the threat of the Scottish identity through the clan system; so very far from being a British goverment decision.

[Gronnuck]

The banning of the Burka is obviously going to cause some debate.

But regardless of what side of the argument you are on, I think it's important to see this has little to do with the oppression of women, the removal of choice or even a security issue.

The ban is the result of the problems in France, and elsewhere, where integration hasn't worked as well as it might. Instead of being one happy society the population is increasingly categorised and segregated.

Wherever there are people who define themselves based on religion, race, or creed, then the society as a whole will be divided. Unless all these religions, races and creeds can come together under a single "banner" there will always be an us and them mentality.

I think the Burka ban is a manifestation of this, and an early one at that. The banning of minarets by the Swiss was another. I'm sure there will be more.

My goodness theone when you say, "Wherever there are people who define themselves based on religion, race, or creed, then the society as a whole will be divided." It sounds as if many people might want to live together in their own communities or ghettos, heaven forbid, .

[Doreen]

Well me I am really gonna stick ma neck out here and probably cause a reaction but hey ho, I think that the burka should be banned, they complain about kids wearing hoodies and in many places they aren't allowed the hood up, they complain about motorcyclists wearing helmets and must take them off before entering many banks, petrol stations etc, so why not ban the burka in public areas too , if they want to wear them in their temples , churches or homes so be it but why should we have it imposed on the rest of us? I for one never trust someone who cant show their face, that is my opinion and not only that how do you know when you are in the middle of manchester it is a woman that seems to be following you in that burka? it could be a man? Feeling intimidated isnt nice either? So my choice is Ban the burka in public places, to me that seems fair and just.

Well said i can agree with everything you said .

[theone]

My goodness theone when you say, "Wherever there are people who define themselves based on religion, race, or creed, then the society as a whole will be divided." It sounds as if many people might want to live together in their own communities or ghettos, heaven forbid, .

I'm not so sure about the ghettos, but yes, people do decide to live in their own communities, and that is where the multi-cultural society starts to fail.