North Highland (Thurso) College to stop teaching computing

[RecQuery]

http://www.facebook.com/notes/comput...e/455849079194

This seems like a really stupid idea to me, I didn't attend UHI/NHC but computing courses always seem popular and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing you should cut.

[PantsMAN]

This seems like a really stupid idea to me, I didn't attend UHI/NHC but computing courses always seem popular and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing you should cut.

There are lots of schools that no longer run a computing department. They reckon that IT and computing use is embedded throughout all of the curriculum.

[Serenity]

There are lots of schools that no longer run a computing department. They reckon that IT and computing use is embedded throughout all of the curriculum.

But computing courses don't just teach you how to use a computer.

I guess you'll still be able to do the online courses via Lews Castle etc.

[*Martin*]

There are lots of schools that no longer run a computing department. They reckon that IT and computing use is embedded throughout all of the curriculum.

As someone who is at college, I can assure you that the amount off people who have gone through High School (both Thurso and Wick) that can barely switch a computer on is shocking!

[RecQuery]

There are lots of schools that no longer run a computing department. They reckon that IT and computing use is embedded throughout all of the curriculum.

(Apologies if any of this seems hostile, I realise it's not you making these points, just stating them.)

The same argument could be made for english or mathematics and a lot of other things and professions. Trust me it's not embedded, this bash.org quote sums it up rather well. Essentially all that high school seems to teach is how to use websites and office packages and some multimedia stuff, beyond that they teach stock answers to stock questions and how to pass computing exams. Hell you're lucky if you get a computing teacher and not a maths or business teacher substituting. If anything most of todays high schoolers are even less tech savvy than previous generations, they treat computers as magic boxes; as appliances never going below the surface or understanding how it works. Sure they can use them in a blind ritualist way but they don't understand them. I agree with *Martin* on this and I've experienced the same thing he has.

Even if you have a degree in another subject and have been working with computers for years in a non-IT field then you barely know 1-2% of computing and IT. Even if you're a computer hobbyist or a gamer and have built your own PC etc and have your own little network then you're better than 2% but no where close to professional computing. There are tons of things I could list in even just one speciality of computing.

Anyway cutting computing seems like a stupid idea when in my opinion there are lots of other things they could cut.

[sinclairbay]

There are lots of schools that no longer run a computing department. They reckon that IT and computing use is embedded throughout all of the curriculum.

The "curriculum for excellence" explicitly states the difference between ICT (which should be embedded in all aspects of the curriculum) and computing science, which in my opinion can only be taught by a computing science graduate. With the introduction of the new upper stages curriculum only a few years away, it seems very short sighted of the college to be shutting down the department, when new avenues, such as games design could be looked at.

[RecQuery]

The "curriculum for excellence" explicitly states the difference between ICT (which should be embedded in all aspects of the curriculum) and computing science, which in my opinion can only be taught by a computing science graduate. With the introduction of the new upper stages curriculum only a few years away, it seems very short sighted of the college to be shutting down the department, when new avenues, such as games design could be looked at.

Ah that makes more sense but even then I'd say it's not enough to expect ICT to picked up or embedded in other parts, I'd hope they teach it in a dedicate form if even just in the early years (BTW IT guys really hate that C). On the subject of new avenues, I have several friends who teach at colleges and universities, they're actually expanding their computing courses and teaching specific programmes in things like:

• Game design and development
• Forensic computing
• Penetration testing and hacking
• Smart systems

[ducati]

http://www.facebook.com/notes/comput...e/455849079194

This seems like a really stupid idea to me, I didn't attend UHI/NHC but computing courses always seem popular and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing you should cut.

Surely supply and demand is the deal here. Afterall NHC is primarily a commercial organisation in as much as they have to sell the courses. So if not enough people buy them..........

Of course they are part of UHI, maybe computing is done better, more cost effectively in other colleges?

[RecQuery]

Surely supply and demand is the deal here. Afterall NHC is primarily a commercial organisation in as much as they have to sell the courses. So if not enough people buy them..........

Of course they are part of UHI, maybe computing is done better, more cost effectively in other colleges?

I know from friends who run and teach HNC and HND programmes at other colleges that they get tuition, money for each module a student passes and a bonus if they pass the whole course. I'm not sure what the student numbers are, I think or rather I've heard there are 11 people taking the HNC this year, which seems like a reasonable amount to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to say that IT teaching needs to be reformed at every level but this isn't the way to go about it.

Universities and colleges are commercial institutions, that's part of the problem in my opinion but it's a side point for now. I would guess they're still going to be paying wages for lecturers to teach IT modules in other programmes, NC courses, ECDL and the Microsoft Academy stuff etc. Inverness is too far to travel for some people and would not be cost effective for some students or viable for people studying part-time. There are parts of IT that really don't lend themselves to distance learning either.

It would also be difficult to attract some companies to the area without an IT skills base.

[sinclairbay]

You should try contacting the Scottish Institute for Computing Educationalists at chair@sioce.org (David Coull) to see what they can do

[torisdale]

It's a real shame the HNC is having issues as many schools don't offer computing (Even at standard grade in the one i'm in).
I know things are coming a lot more user friendly but there will always be computing areas that can't be covered inside a normal school curriculum.

Best of luck to the Fiona & Carol and hopefully it gets to stay.

[EDDIE]

It's a real shame the HNC is having issues as many schools don't offer computing (Even at standard grade in the one i'm in).
I know things are coming a lot more user friendly but there will always be computing areas that can't be covered inside a normal school curriculum.

Best of luck to the Fiona & Carol and hopefully it gets to stay.

I think it would be a lot more practical to have computing class in school considering computers are part of everyday life and thats the future computer software and so on a lot more practical thing to have than learning french or german or even R.E or history or geography things like that that are no use to u in the real world.

[crayola]

I think it would be a lot more practical to have computing class in school considering computers are part of everyday life and thats the future computer software and so on a lot more practical thing to have than learning french or german or even R.E or history or geography things like that that are no use to u in the real world.

Well I suppose you might believe that if all you ever want is a job for which you don't need to write properly or to travel or to talk to anyone outside Caithness or if you don't ever work with French or German Volk.

It was suggested earlier in this thread that recent school leavers are less computer savvy that their predecessors of a decade or so ago. This is undoubtedly the case. Most of our new recruits could set up their own web pages 10 years ago. Today's recruits wouldn't know where to start yet they think they are experts because they use Facebook every day.

[orkneycadian]

As someone who is at college, I can assure you that the amount off people who have gone through High School (both Thurso and Wick) that can barely switch a computer on is shocking!

I thoroughly agree. The number of folk that can't use Google these days is appalling.

[ducati]

I know from friends who run and teach HNC and HND programmes at other colleges that they get tuition, money for each module a student passes and a bonus if they pass the whole course. I'm not sure what the student numbers are, I think or rather I've heard there are 11 people taking the HNC this year, which seems like a reasonable amount to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to say that IT teaching needs to be reformed at every level but this isn't the way to go about it.

Universities and colleges are commercial institutions, that's part of the problem in my opinion but it's a side point for now. I would guess they're still going to be paying wages for lecturers to teach IT modules in other programmes, NC courses, ECDL and the Microsoft Academy stuff etc. Inverness is too far to travel for some people and would not be cost effective for some students or viable for people studying part-time. There are parts of IT that really don't lend themselves to distance learning either.

It would also be difficult to attract some companies to the area without an IT skills base.

Also the costs of specialist tutoring. You mentioned Forensic and Ethical Hacking for instance. The people that work in these disciplines command enormous rates. IMO this type of learning is best dealt with in the private sector. Incidentally, I have employed peeps with degrees in computing in the past and they weren’t anything like as practical and knowledgeable as some that were working through MS accreditations in the private sector.

[RecQuery]

Also the costs of specialist tutoring. You mentioned Forensic and Ethical Hacking for instance. The people that work in these disciplines command enormous rates. IMO this type of learning is best dealt with in the private sector. Incidentally, I have employed peeps with degrees in computing in the past and they weren’t anything like as practical and knowledgeable as some that were working through MS accreditations in the private sector.

I sort of agree with you on this point, I wouldn't hire a good 80% of my graduating class, yet a fair chunk of them got 2:1's. About 10 people graduated that year. They just failed to grasp some pretty basic concepts and didn't seem to have a passion for the subject. I know people studying those enormous rate subjects both at bachelors and masters level and I'd say the numbers break down about the same, with about three people who actually know what they're doing. The only half way decent certifications in them also is the SANs stuff, CEH etc is crap.

My time at university taught me nothing, it did give me time to learn stuff on my own, too many of my class expected to be hand held. If I were to put together a course I'd teach the stuff I was taught in 4th year in 1st year and accept a lot less people onto the course. The lecturers are part of the problem also but that's a different discussion.

I'd say all employers, if viable need to run some tests (both practical and theory) on applicants or hire them on an initial three month contract.

Of course on the other hand I think IT certifications (CCNA, MCSE etc) which are mainly employer led are equally crap, with the exception of the RHCE which seems to be the only certification to get it right, it's tested by having a 9-5 practical exam on actual equipment... if you're about to say the CCIE does that also I'm going to counter by saying it keeps it's numbers artifically low by charging a small fortune. I know quite a lot of people with these certifications who are equally useless, they just bought TestKing books etc and gave stock answers to stock questions. I've met CCNP's who can't turn on IP accounting, MCSEs who just don't understanding Group Policy. That's not to say there aren't some good people with certifications just as there are some good people with degrees.

Again, testing at each point of the application process is probably the best way to weed out the bad ones.

The problem with commercialising IT education is you have institutions teaching Cisco and Microsoft stuff instead of being agnostic on the choice of vendor and teaching concepts, if you want to teach Cisco also teach Juniper and running Linux as a router etc. Also places will just accept people they shouldn't because they're paying.

Recruiters are equally to blame by just spamming buzzwords on job applications, I saw one a few years back that wanted a CCIE (voice) with 6 years experience when the certification or equipment hadn't even been out that long.

Anyway in closing I'd say the best idea for employers is to hire geeks, those with a passion for the subject.

EDIT:

That's not to say we shouldn't require degrees for some parts of IT, we need to try and professionalise the field more. I'm an advocate of adopting something similar to the Medical industry, with there being a sliding scale.

[ducati]

Somewhere in there you hit the nail on the head Req, Passion for the subject.

The people I have most respect for are the ones prepared to fund themselves through very expensive accreditations (in many cases just to get a commercially recognised accreditation to prove the skill and knowledge they have already taught themselves).

However there are many employers out there prepared to fund an employees accreditation, these are the people that attract the very best.

On the subject of vender accreditation I have to differ, as far as an employer or buyer of support services is concerned, they want someone accredited by the vender they use.

The people we are talking about here though are primarily software engineers. We still need the real boffins to develope the next generations of software and hardware.

[RecQuery]

Somewhere in there you hit the nail on the head Req, Passion for the subject.

The people I have most respect for are the ones prepared to fund themselves through very expensive accreditations (in many cases just to get a commercially recognised accreditation to prove the skill and knowledge they have already taught themselves).

However there are many employers out there prepared to fund an employees accreditation, these are the people that attract the very best.

On the subject of vender accreditation I have to differ, as far as an employer or buyer of support services is concerned, they want someone accredited by the vender they use.

The people we are talking about here though are primarily software engineers. We still need the real boffins to develope the next generations of software and hardware.

Yeah I agree and I'd hire people with passion for the subject. Though we are primarily talking about a software development or general computing course as they've already cancelled the others at NHC.

On the topic of certifications, I'm kind of have the opposite opinion, I've met quite a few people with certs and there are two types. The first is in the minority and are competent people who have to get them to be competitive in the job market because employers and recruiters are too lazy to write a proper job specification and just spam buzzwords and certifications. The second type which are in the majority are people who think they can learn some computing and make a lot of money (kind of like those dodgy computeach adverts), these people are the problem with IT in so many ways (they drive down standards and salaries to name but two). That's where the term paper-[certification] comes from. People in the late 90's would quit jobs, go through certification bootcamps with promises of high salaries, get (at the time) MCSEs, get hired and then screw up or not know what to do. In some situations people pass the certifications without even touching the technology or product, just by reading. in others they hire people to take the exams for them or just pay a dodgy test centre.

There's a reason MCSE has taken to mean Must Consult Someone Experienced and for the old joke 'How to do you get a CCNA out of your building... pay for your pizza.'

Certifications are a false economy in a way. Perhaps if each vendor had 3 exams (beginner, intermediate and advanced or something) and maintained standards but they don't and the exams sprawl I think MS has somewhere near 120 different exams now.

I'd would be okay with something akin to a legal bar exam, provided practical elements were tested also. Possibly with vendor neutral certifications also, I mean there's Comptia but it's very basic. Like I said earlier the RHCE is the only one I've seen to get it right, they don't sub contract to testing centres, they run the exams themselves and it's a day long affair and entirely practical.

Most of the bigger employers, when I was looking at graduate programmes seemed to want basically business guys and managers who know what a computer and could do some office and social media stuff. Though I take your point that support and funding for continued training is vital.

[ecb]

I will be sorry if they stop the HNC Computing at the College. I did the HNC Computing course at the College some years ago and then came South to do a second year to get an HND. As a student, that was a cheaper option than going away to do the whole course. Things are getting more difficult for the students of tomorrow.