Britain's reputation hits new low.

[fred]

Following this article in the Times yesterday I'm wondering just how the rest of the world sees Britain and the British people.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7114602.ece

It seems that sexual abuse while in British custody in Iraq was the norm, anyone who had been in British custody was automatically assumed to have been sexually abused.

Shouldn't we be seeing trials and stiff sentences handed out to those responsible instead of just paying off the victims? Showing the world Britain is a civilised country and a civilised people who do not condone this sort of abuse.

[Tubthumper]

Someone else running the country down for a change, that should make you feel all warm inside.
Are you complaining about it? Agreeing with it? Or just being smug and 'I told you Britain was terrible!' about it?
Better emigrate Fred, it's getting worse!

[fred]

Someone else running the country down for a change, that should make you feel all warm inside.
Are you complaining about it? Agreeing with it? Or just being smug and 'I told you Britain was terrible!' about it?
Better emigrate Fred, it's getting worse!

I for one do not wish to be associated with these things or have these things done in my name.

Are you saying everyone who doesn't condone physical and sexual abuse should just leave the country because that is what this country stands for?

[Kodiak]

Kodiak settles back in chair ready to watch a big free-fpr-all of Orgers sniping at each other.

Ready....Steady...GO !!

[gleeber]

There doesnt need to be any sniping in this particualr thread.
I think Fred has a point although I havnt got a clue what I would do about it. I presume Fred would know how to change it all. I'm sure most people reading this would wish for a different world.
If he could explain his position and how he would change Britain to a country where things like he brings up on the org, didnt happen any more, then I for one would have a clearer vision of his position.

[fred]

There doesnt need to be any sniping in this particualr thread.
I think Fred has a point although I havnt got a clue what I would do about it. I presume Fred would know how to change it all. I'm sure most people reading this would wish for a different world.
If he could explain his position and how he would change Britain to a country where things like he brings up on the org, didnt happen any more, then I for one would have a clearer vision of his position.

I think I made my position clear. There should be prosecutions and these cases dealt with more seriously than civilian cases because the people committing these crimes are not only abusing the power and authority given to them by the British people but are also representing Britain when they are doing it, bringing an entire nation into disrepute.

[Gronnuck]

Following this article in the Times yesterday I'm wondering just how the rest of the world sees Britain and the British people.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7114602.ece

These stories aren’t really going to have any great effect on how the world already sees us. Pro-British governments and peoples will say these stories are a load of hogwash and anti-British governments will say we’re imperialist bullies that should be attacked at every turn – so no change there.

It seems that sexual abuse while in British custody in Iraq was the norm, anyone who had been in British custody was automatically assumed to have been sexually abused.

As if – well they would say that wouldn’t they. IMHO most squaddies have enough to do without resorting to getting off sexually abusing anyone held for questioning. Most squaddies would probably prefer giving them a good slap and be done with it.

Shouldn't we be seeing trials and stiff sentences handed out to those responsible instead of just paying off the victims? Showing the world Britain is a civilised country and a civilised people who do not condone this sort of abuse.

There have been trials by Courts Marshal. There was only enough evidence to convict a few.
The rest are allegations – whatever happened to being innocent until proven guilty?
There are Regiments of Military Police, including the SIB and civi attached police carrying out investigations. There are FCO civil servants and their lawyers dealing with all these alleged cases.

As I see it everything that needs to be done is being done, albiet slowly and methodically, but there is always going to be a newspaper looking for a story.

[fred]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
There have been trials by Courts Marshal. There was only enough evidence to convict a few.
The rest are allegations – whatever happened to being innocent until proven guilty?
There are Regiments of Military Police, including the SIB and civi attached police carrying out investigations. There are FCO civil servants and their lawyers dealing with all these alleged cases.

As I see it everything that needs to be done is being done, albiet slowly and methodically, but there is always going to be a newspaper looking for a story.

So the British Army, which itself is being accused of serious war crimes, investigates itself and finds itself not guilty.

The witnesses say they were shown photographs of other prisoners being sexually abused. Not only did they sexually abuse people they made sure every one knew about it. Not only did they threaten sexual abuse they threatened to show photographs so after being abused they would then be ostracised by their communities, ashamed to go back to their families.

Does this make people proud to be British?

[Anfield]

My only surprise is that so few UK "Personal Injury" shyster solicitors are operating there.

"..Another British law firm, Public Interest Lawyers, represents 65 clients with similar claims and is expecting “many, many more.."

Paul Rooney& Co from Liverpool would have a field day over there considering that they can get settlements of thousands of pounds for people tripping over pavements etc.

[Gronnuck]

So the British Army, which itself is being accused of serious war crimes, investigates itself and finds itself not guilty.

I didn’t see any reference to the British Army investigating itself in your link. The article says, “Allegations are being investigated by the Ministry of Defence”, which is a government department and so this is a a very different scenario from the one you imply. If you knew anything about the military you would know that there is little love between the MOD and the services. Each has very different roles.

The witnesses say they were shown photographs of other prisoners being sexually abused. Not only did they sexually abuse people they made sure every one knew about it.

Pictures can be staged and abuse implied in order to undermine a subject's reticence in the search for information. To prove abuse actually happened you would need evidence. Clearly this evidence would have to be more than unsubstantiated stories.

Not only did they threaten sexual abuse they threatened to show photographs so after being abused they would then be ostracised by their communities, ashamed to go back to their families.

All sorts of methods will have been used to undermine the individual's integrity if that's what it takes to gather information. Such is war. However these are still only allegations

Does this make people proud to be British?

Until the evidence proves otherwise and convictions follow - I will continue to support our troops.

I have to say I'm disappointed in you fred. You have clearly decided that members of the British Army are guilty even before investigations have been completed and justice allowed to take its proper course. Your ramblings are spiteful mischief making. I'm not so niave as to think that squaddies don't break the law or bend the rules but until they are found guilty you should keep an open mind and await the results of a thorough investigation.

[fred]

I have to say I'm disappointed in you fred. You have clearly decided that members of the British Army are guilty even before investigations have been completed and justice allowed to take its proper course. Your ramblings are spiteful mischief making. I'm not so niave as to think that squaddies don't break the law or bend the rules but until they are found guilty you should keep an open mind and await the results of a thorough investigation.

Read the article, substantial payments have already been made, they would not have been made without guilt.

So where are the prosecutions?

There isn't going to be a thorough investigation because there isn't going to be an independent investigation.

And no, there is no excuse for sexual abuse, war or no war, there is no excuse.

[Gronnuck]

Read the article, substantial payments have already been made, they would not have been made without guilt.

The only reference I can find says, “The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has already paid millions of pounds to claimants who alleged physical and sexual abuse in detention in southeast Iraq, where British forces were based between 2003 and 2009”. This sentence is so nebulous as to be meaningless. Compensation can be paid for a multitude of things.

So where are the prosecutions?

So far only allegations have been mentioned except in the case of Baha Musa the hotel receptionist.

There isn't going to be a thorough investigation because there isn't going to be an independent investigation.

Says you - wait and see. Investigations are ongoing and the investigators are not all involved in the military.

And no, there is no excuse for sexual abuse, war or no war, there is no excuse.

Agreed - however there is no excuse for implying guilt without substantiated evidence before any trial.

I can see you are determined to find anyone and everyone guilty so be it - I ain't going to argue with you. Good night.

[Anfield]

Gronnuck, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[The Drunken Duck]

Or on the other hand Anfield .. none so stupid who blindly back accusations as the truth that they cannot prove themselves.

Gronnuck I would just bug out now, this will just go round in circles. I had a run in with a student on Friday night stating similar claims as "fact" and had all sorts of sick abuse thrown at me because my girlfriend told him I was ex RAF, when I invited him outside to repeat it suddenly it was ME threatening HIM. That's the crux of it, big at shouting the odds, bigger at crying and playing victim when they get called on their own words. People of a certain mindset are going to think what they want. They will twist whatever they want until it fits their own views that they have chosen to believe as fact. Jesus could come down and tell them they were wrong and it wouldn't make any difference.

If people dug a little bit about PIL, the biggest handler of these cases, they would uncover a history of accusations being made and not proved, cases being brought and thrown out of court through unreliable witnesses and downright liars. One recent case had an Iraqi female witness being asked if she was lying and answering "Yes", case was dismissed. This is all done on Legal Aid by PIL who go to Iraq touting for business and then come back and feed at the trough of public money. It probably hasn't occurred to people that if Legal Aid is funding the Prosecution and the MOD the defence out of the Defence Budget its the public purse all the way, perhaps its cheaper to settle rather than a fight an expensive case and spend money needed by guys on the ground from the ever shrinking Defence Budget. Maybe it escapes them that this then encourages more claims and allows us to be milked for cash while our troops are seen as guilty because it is deemed as cheaper to settle than to defend them under the full force of the law. Or they could wonder how a detainee would be wandering around to (allegedly) see two soldiers kissing. Detainees are locked up. Or perhaps wonder how on earth sexual abuse as claimed would be seen as shameful in a country in which men will have sex with boys, other men and even Donkeys if times are tough. I have seen that for myself. These claims are designed to be shocking to the British populace, you only have to spend a while around Arab men to know that man love is MUCH more widespread than the Brtish men. I know a guy who did a TA tour in Afghan and told me about "Man Love Fridays", for instance. Besides anyone who thinks Squaddies go round lusting after smelly Iraqi detainees is deluding themselves. Been on some long Det's but could never get that desperate. I reckon some detainees and prisoners have got a slap and a boot on occasion, as hard as that is to understand it has gone on. Its a war zone not Butlins. But guys HAVE been prosecuted for stepping over the line, a Marine SNCO was booted out for smacking an Afghan about recently. That Afghan is now free to most probably go on making the IED's he was caught red handed planting. Justice ?? .. yup. Break the rules and you get bounced. Does it leave a bad taste .. yup.

Anyway, on with the show.

[ducati]

I've said this before, some people will always believe the worst of the armed forces and some people will always defend them. The first group won't post anything positive when they come across it and the second group won't post anything negative when they come across it. Me? I don't search for stuff then I don't have to worry about it.

[oldmarine]

Following this article in the Times yesterday I'm wondering just how the rest of the world sees Britain and the British people.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7114602.ece

It seems that sexual abuse while in British custody in Iraq was the norm, anyone who had been in British custody was automatically assumed to have been sexually abused.

Shouldn't we be seeing trials and stiff sentences handed out to those responsible instead of just paying off the victims? Showing the world Britain is a civilised country and a civilised people who do not condone this sort of abuse.

These problems seem similar to what the Catholic church is currently suffering. Fortunately during WW2 we did not have these problems advertised because we did not have civilian reporters and photographers with us in combat. We had our own military reporters and photogragpers embedded in our units who did not report to the civilian press.