View Full Version : Should we bring back the wolf
Should this once native beautiful animal re introduced to scotland. Fearfull of humans and seldom known to take domestic cattle modern proof shows the ballance of nature to be far better where wolves have been brought back to areas where they were hunted out.
:eek: IMHO farmers and land owners are the people to make this decision - not some townie weekend tree hugger with a penchant for saving the planet. (Before you take offence I'm not insinuating that you are a townie weekend tree hugger!) ;). Despite what the government and numerous quangos think it’s the farmers and land owners who are the managers of our countryside and apart from the occasional nudge they should be left to get on with it. They’ve not done too badly so far.
Boozeburglar
17-Feb-10, 08:39
I am not for it. They will predate livestock, as they do elsewhere. I have camped out in a few areas with them and they make it a spooky experience. I love them but I am against the reintroduction in Scotland.
This is being argued on the basis it would add balance?
riggerboy
17-Feb-10, 09:27
yeah bring back wild dogs and let them roam freely thoughout this fine land, who cares if they take out the odd sheep here of there,
northener
17-Feb-10, 10:07
Not a good idea, for the reason outlined by other posters.
The 'natural' terrain of the wolf has changed massively. It is now open to livestock which wolves will target given the opportunity. I heard talk about 'compensation' being given to sheep men for any stock taken.
The fact that many of these people has spent years building up these flocks is totally lost upon anyone who thinks that bunging someone a few quid will make things acceptable.
I like wolves, fantastic creatures. But we have to be pragmatic about reintroducing them.
Bears, anyone?
I think we should bring them back, the odd lamb getting eaten isn't a bad thing. Wolves are higher up the food chain.
Plus, they make cool whiney noises.
I like them both and would love to see them both introduced, shame it will never happen tho. Just imagine a few bears sitting at the salmon pool, lord thurso would love that :).
On that note, wasn't there a wealthy bloke trying to use a huge area of land (that he inherited in the highlands ?) to do something similar, bringing back all the species that have gone missing for one reason or another.?
To lazy to google it [lol]
with the amount of deer we have here... the wolves would more likley ignore the cattle. taking out the sick and weak if any.
northener
17-Feb-10, 14:00
I like them both and would love to see them both introduced, shame it will never happen tho. Just imagine a few bears sitting at the salmon pool, lord thurso would love that :).
On that note, wasn't there a wealthy bloke trying to use a huge area of land (that he inherited in the highlands ?) to do something similar, bringing back all the species that have gone missing for one reason or another.?
To lazy to google it [lol]
Yup, an estate out West. He's got wolves already, I believe. Although they're fenced IIRC.
northener
17-Feb-10, 14:02
with the amount of deer we have here... the wolves would more likley ignore the cattle. taking out the sick and weak if any.
I think that's part of the reasoning behind why introducing them could be a good thing. But we'd have to make our minds up wether we want sheep or wolves in an area....you can't realistically have both.
I am not for it. They will predate livestock, as they do elsewhere. I have camped out in a few areas with them and they make it a spooky experience. I love them but I am against the reintroduction in Scotland.
This is being argued on the basis it would add balance?
They don't predate livestock as a preference.
Why introduce another species to be abused and exploited?
porshiepoo
17-Feb-10, 14:19
Personally I would love to see the return of Wolves to any part of the UK that was deemed able to withstand them with as little impact as possible on the area.
We have to remember that Wolves were not wiped out from the UK by some natural disaster or some inability to survive.
In England they were hunted with dogs and horses and wiped out by the 1500's and Scotland killed its last wolf by sometime in the 1700's.
It would be ignorant of me to suggest that there would be no threat to livestock but mainly I think it would be the weak and ailing that would be targeted.
Should the fact that a few livestock may be taken be the reason that the wolf is not reintroduced? Not in my opinion. Maybe my opinion would be different if my livelihood depended on those livestock but hey ho it doesn't.
Paul Lister has the right idea and personally I think reintroducing them his way would be a great step forward and would help educate people in a more efficient way.
On a more negative side:
As to why the Wolf should be reintroduced, well that's something else. Would there be any real benefit into them being here again? Do we need to reintroduce a species that we once felt the need to wipe out - and we did deliberately wipe this species out.
What exactly are we assuming that they will feast on? And how long will our deer species last if the Wolf is back? I mean we may have plague proportions of them now but how long would it take for that to change and the Wolf to be forced into seeking food elsewhere? Or are we considering the introduction of other species that would be conducive to the Wolf surviving?
Lots of questions that need answering me thinks.
:eek: IMHO farmers and land owners are the people to make this decision - not some townie weekend tree hugger with a penchant for saving the planet. (Before you take offence I'm not insinuating that you are a townie weekend tree hugger!) ;). Despite what the government and numerous quangos think it’s the farmers and land owners who are the managers of our countryside and apart from the occasional nudge they should be left to get on with it. They’ve not done too badly so far.
your right not a tree hugger from the city just someone who has a keen interest in these animals and who has spent many years in doing research as a hobby into this very thing !
your right not a tree hugger from the city just someone who has a keen interest in these animals and who has spent many years in doing research as a hobby into this very thing !
You have my respect. If your extensive research shows that reintroduction is practical and farmers and landowners are in agreement then I would support it. However I'm very much against the diktat of a faceless goon in Westminster or Holyrood who makes their decision based upon the flimsiest of evidence. :)
Boozeburglar
17-Feb-10, 14:48
They don't predate livestock as a preference.
The will take whatever they can get. Period.
I have no objection to them in fenced off parks, (who would?), but I see no point at all in reintroduction in general.
What next? Bears?
;)
The will take whatever they can get. Period.
I have no objection to them in fenced off parks, (who would?), but I see no point at all in reintroduction in general.
What next? Bears?
;)
sorry but in general wolves will stay away from livestock and humans because they have since long learnt that interaction with humans or their live stock will result in their death, they were once resident accross scotland and only wiped out due to human miss understanding, and unfounded fears, the last wolf killed in scotland was infact killed near Helmsdale!
Boozeburglar
17-Feb-10, 15:04
sorry but in general wolves will stay away from livestock and humans because they have since long learnt that interaction with humans or their live stock will result in their death, they were once resident accross scotland and only wiped out due to human miss understanding, and unfounded fears, the last wolf killed in scotland was infact killed near Helmsdale!
Why sorry?
What you are saying does not contradict what I have said.
No wolf will leave alone a hill sheep because it anticipates retribution from the keeper.
Once again, wolves will kill whatever they can access.
If you intend to argue the case for reintroduction, that is up to you.
I don't hear a convincing one so far.
they were once resident accross scotland and only wiped out due to human miss understanding, and unfounded fears, the last wolf killed in scotland was infact killed near Helmsdale!
What makes you think anything has changed?
Dog-eared
17-Feb-10, 15:15
The memorial for the last wolf killed in Scotland is in the big layby/parking area near the Loth turnoff.
found this.. its for america but gives you an idea.. of a much larger wolf population
The U. S. Department of Agriculture confirmed 66 complaints of wolves killing livestock on 53 farms in 2004. Eight cattle, adult and yearling, 58 calves, 15 sheep, and 101 turkeys were verified as killed by wolves, and 105 wolves were killed by controllers to prevent further loss. While this is a great loss to some farmers, it affects only around 1% of the farms in wolf range. (See Summary)
How many deer do wolves kill? (top)
On average, each wolf kills an estimated 15-20 adult-sized deer or their equivalent per year. Wolves also prey upon beavers, moose, and in some cases, livestock.
Invisible
17-Feb-10, 15:22
I would like to see the Wolf back, Gladiators just hasn't been the same without him or just a Silverfox
Boozeburglar
17-Feb-10, 15:22
. . . and by the way, if they were reintroduced they would have to be 'protected'. Leaving those who might suffer losses powerless to do anything about it.
We all know that is not where it would end. They would be wiped out just as fast as they were reintroduced.
Either that or money would need to be allocated to protecting them actively, is that expense justified?
In an ideal world I would love to see them, I camped wild in areas full of them when I was younger and they are one of my favourite animals, but I just cannot see it happening except in controlled areas. Is that not a compromise that would work?
Boozeburglar
17-Feb-10, 15:24
I would like to see the Wolf back, Gladiators just hasn't been the same without him or just a Silverfox
Lol, and I think right now with the return of the evil Tories looking an even bet, we need Wolfie.
Question is, come the revolution will I be one of the first up against the wall?
;)
this is some info on the wolf.. that i found online.. has some goof Q&A
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/intermed/inter_mgmt/faq_mgmt.asp#9
Boozeburglar
17-Feb-10, 15:27
The memorial for the last wolf killed in Scotland is in the big layby/parking area near the Loth turnoff.
Yes, and Glen Loth has hill sheep on it.
What's the point? There's enough snarly creatures that are quick to bite on here. :roll:
northener
17-Feb-10, 15:43
Yes, and Glen Loth has hill sheep on it.
Exactly. And lots of red deer. Without expensively fencing in huge areas of livestock-free land, I cannot see how it would be possible to effectively seperate wolves from livestock and human habitation.
I've just done a quick search and one hunting site states that in North America, packs can cover about 1000 square miles. That's an area of 31 miles by 31 miles...which would effectively put the wolves easily into conflict areas anywhere in Scotland by my reckoning.
We still have idiots willing to poison birds of prey, steal osprey eggs and shoot endangered species. Can you imagine what would happen to the wolves? Especially when some hysterical profiteering attention seeker goes wailing to the press claiming they were 'hunted down' by a pack of wolves...or Tiddles gets nailed by a fox.[disgust]
northener
17-Feb-10, 15:44
What's the point? There's enough snarly creatures that are quick to bite on here. :roll:
Oooh, get you.:p
Boozeburglar
17-Feb-10, 15:45
this is some info on the wolf.. that i found online.. has some goof Q&A
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/intermed/inter_mgmt/faq_mgmt.asp#9
Difference is of course that any reintroduction here outwith physically isolated locations would only be attempted hand in hand with giving legal protection to the wolves.
This is another case of only thinking of the money lost when animals are killed. Is the human world so obessed with money that we fail to see the bigger picture?
northener
17-Feb-10, 18:23
This is another case of only thinking of the money lost when animals are killed. Is the human world so obessed with money that we fail to see the bigger picture?
You could take that statement a couple of ways, V.
Could you elaborate?
You could take that statement a couple of ways, V.
Could you elaborate?
Aye and even though anyone only seeing things from a farmers point of view will not like it ;)
On reading the thread so far i have noticed mostly the biggest argument against bringing the wolf back is that they will kill farmers lifestock. Now as much as i understand how frustrating it is to lose their lifestock as it has reparcunces(sp) on their farm and their income, it does not mean that the money is much more important than animals lives.
Animals are not ruled by conscious, it is instinct. If for example a person's cat killed a bird, the owner may be get annoyed and maybe if they were a bird lover very upset but the cat would not be blamed for it as the cat can not help it as it is part of their genetic make up as a predator.
So for me hearing that we should not do something just because the animals involved may kill farmers lifestock is just another example of how consumed and obessed humans are of money. Hence why this case of bringing back the wolves is nothing but a battle over loss and profit.
Forget about the USA (which has 40% of the world'd Wolf population), but a bit nearer to home:
Spain and Italy were the only countries in western Europe with surviving wolf populations. Now their wolf numbers are growing (totalling around 3,000) they have attracted research on depredation.
Researchers conclude that the main factor influencing sheep depredation in both countries is the style of sheep management.
Sheep in Spain roam the mountain region largely unshepherded (like the Scottish Highlands) and depredation is ten times higher than in the lowlands, where sheep traditionally are guarded by day by shepherds and enclosed at night; twenty per cent of wolves live in the Spanish mountains but cause eighty per cent of losses.
Similarly, in the Tuscany region of central Italy, most sheep depredation involves flocks unattended by shepherds.
http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/depredation.html
roadbowler
17-Feb-10, 20:27
yea, i kind of agree with vistravi to a point however, there are a few more issues to it i think. Apparently, highland cattle are the best breed to fend off wolves, in fact they import them in russia for this reason. The problem is that farming in this country has evolved to work with wolves out of the picture and i suspect a move to reintroduce them would harm the cattle and sheep farming in this country even worse which means more dependence on imported food. Brandys' snippet from the link doesn't mention horses or goats. They kill horses too. I've witnessed it and the aftermath. This isn't the first i've seen them either. I lived in a place that just recently in the past 20 years or so reintroduced wolves. They kill plenty of dogs and breed with them too. Boozeburgler is right they will then give them protection status and landowners and farmers will be powerless to do anything. However, where i used to live most people lived on wild game for a large portion of their meat diet and the wolves really decimated the populations of deer and elk. So, the hunters and farmers i hear have now adopted a policy of, "shoot, shovel and shut up" there now. You see foxes all over the cities in scotland so, i wonder what happens when the wolves meet an imbalance in the food chain, then what? Why do they want to reintroduce them anyways except for the reasons gronnuck highlighted?
Before we reintroduce the wolf to Scotland we should remember the difficulty involved in making the wolf extinct in the first place.
For the very last wolf in Scotland was shot at Lochaber, hoping for a safer life and friendlier neighbours it then moved to Brora where some years later it was shot once again by a man called Poulson. Mortally wounded the wolf managed to crawl as far as Findhorn only to be shot yet again.
I believe that last wolf in Scotland was shot many more times and in many other places before it eventually died, can we really risk reintroducing an animal so hard to get rid off?
northener
17-Feb-10, 22:39
Before we reintroduce the wolf to Scotland we should remember the difficulty involved in making the wolf extinct in the first place.
For the very last wolf in Scotland was shot at Lochaber, hoping for a safer life and friendlier neighbours it then moved to Brora where some years later it was shot once again by a man called Poulson. Mortally wounded the wolf managed to crawl as far as Findhorn only to be shot yet again.
I believe that last wolf in Scotland was shot many more times and in many other places before it eventually died, can we really risk reintroducing an animal so hard to get rid off?
[lol][lol][lol]
I dont think we are taking this far enough. Maybe we should reintroduce all the species that have died out and then humans should all move back out of scotland completely? That way, give if a few decades, things can return to the way they were before we were either here eh?
I reckon its the only way. . . . . .
I believe they are trying to bring back wolves and other original native species, lynx and wild cats etc to Alladale an estate near Ardgay. The area will be entirely enclosed, there are already wild boar and elk there, but the ramblers are up in arms because of "the right to roam" I think the owner has applied for a zoo licence but is being opposed by said ramblers. Seems to me the owner should be able to bring these animals back as he has fenced the estate to keep them in and keep them out of other areas. It's his estate, not the ramblers but that is probably infringing their human rights.
I remember reading that the problem at Alladale was that the owner had to enclose a large reserve area so that adjoining estates could protect their game etc., but to enclose an area requires a zoo license, and having a zoo license means you can't keep prey and predators in the same enclosed area. Also, wasn't the guy at Alladale the heir to MFI or something and MFI has gone bust? Not sure of that, but too late at night to be looking stuff up.
Aaldtimer
18-Feb-10, 04:03
Simplest solution to this is to let the ramblers lash at it, carry on rambling...at their own risk!:)
I think that before re-introducing wolves and the like we should concentrate of preserving the species that we do have, such as red squirrel, polecat, wild cat, capercaille, etc. I wouldn't think that re-introducing wolves in modern UK would be such a good idea - they need such large ranges of territory that is heavily wooded. Do such places still exist in 'tamed' UK?
Boozeburglar
18-Feb-10, 12:34
Good point, where is all the spare money to start reintroducing such a beast?
I would rather see that money used to get rid of the species that are damaging our own.
I would rather see that money used to get rid of the species that are damaging our own.[/quote]
there goes the ballence of nature again then.
are views like that not the reason this beautiful animal has now been wiped out from many parts of the world.
Mr. Lister is heir to the M.F.I furniture business and has the wealth to pusue his hobby but it might be more worthwhile for him to support wolf populations in the countries where they still exist in their own habitat and coexist to a degree with domestic livestock.
I beleive there are all sorts of bureaucratic problems over feeding live prey to an animal which is kept in an enclosure under a zoo licence. What they may do au natural in the wild is another matter. Lister's ambition was to buy up neighbouring estates to accumulate 50,000 acres, put a ring fence around it and charge everyone to come in despite there being several historic rights of way and our recent formalisation of rights of access from the Land Reform Act 2001.
P.R. has not been his strong point. A press release went out on the big plan for Alladale estate long before he got round to speaking to anyone in Ardgay, Bonar Bridge or Strathcarron. Understandably this was a public relations disaster and thing have run on from there.
No they shouldnt be introduced back, They were killed for a reason way back. a fine example is the people that wanted sea-eagles introduced back again and they got them. Now its the poor farmers and fishermen that suffer and in turn the food chain which will affect all of us in time.
People way back were not stupid/cruel they did what was needed for human survival and as much as I love all animals some just dont work together specially when the food chain and peoples lively hoods are involved.
People just need to look at the bigger picture, The Goverment pays money to farmers etc for animals lost to the sea eagles:confused where as if they werent introduced back in the first place then theres would be more money available for helping people/companys that have been hit in the recession.
Meaning more jobs less unemployment.
Some people just dont think things through enough.
It had been thought that the last wolf in Scotland was shot in the Trossachs - but it was actually shot between the eyes.
Boom-tish.
he was my favourite gladiator boom tish.
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