View Full Version : Alternative Therapies
Hi Not sure where to ask this so hope it's in the right place.
Does anyone out there know any local alternative therapies for either lower back pain, for a poor individual who is allergic to so many over the counter medicines it is becoming unbearable. :~(
I have a Homedics Shiatsu cushion which is wonderful for lower back pain and many other sorts of pain. Plug it in, turn the heat up to high, and lie back and enjoy.
Moi x
redeyedtreefrog
05-Sep-09, 23:56
As implied, they are alternative remedies. By definition, they either have not been proven to work, or been proven not to work. You know that they call medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine.
I prefer to call them complimentary to alternative...
Have you tried a tens machine? Works releasing endorphins to "overpower" the pain response. If it can work in early stages of labour I'd say that's pretty conclusive evidence of the effectiveness ;)
NB - and I'm a complete skeptic...
I don't care whether you call my shiatsu cushion an alternative remedy or just plain medicine. All I know is that it not only relieves my lower back pain without taking painkillers but it also expedites my recovery.
Moi x
I've got one of those massage chair things that you put over an office chair/diningroom chair. The rollers move up and down, and round and round plus the seat vibrates. You feel like you have had an hour long massage after 10 minutes on it :) Not quite the same though :(
If its a mild back ache then I would suggest a real massage as compared to an artificial one. If you live in Thurso I would recommend Georgous in Princes Street or if in Wick then Skin & Tonic in Henrietta Street. Have tried both for similair problem and found both excellent.
Bobinovich
06-Sep-09, 10:25
Dunno if this is any use to you but you could try reflexology :). I've not tried it myself but a lassie Laura Durrand has recently started up in Thurso - you can find her details at www.ldreflexology.co.uk (http://www.ldreflexology.co.uk). Good luck.
Dunno if this is any use to you but you could try reflexology :). I've not tried it myself but a lassie Laura Durrand has recently started up in Thurso - you can find her details at www.ldreflexology.co.uk (http://www.ldreflexology.co.uk). Good luck.
Thanks everyone I can't take "medicines" as i am allergic to so many different types and at the moment I couldn't stand a massage as the slightest pressure on my back is unbearable so have looked up Bob's suggestion and think i'll give it a go.
As implied, they are alternative remedies. By definition, they either have not been proven to work, or been proven not to work. You know that they call medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine.
Where did you get that kind of information from? It is simply wrong. Natural problems can easily be cured with natural (or "alternative") remedies or therapies. They have been proven to work for hundreds of years and are called medicines. I presume you are referring to prescription drugs when you are talking about medicines, many of which are proven to be dangerous and addictive. Did you watch the news a couple of days ago ?
Paracetamols with added codeine have been found to be addictive as codeine is a registered narcotic. Millions of them are prescribed every year for head aches, back pain etc etc. Do they help ? Do they remedy ? Or do they harm ?
I prefer to take alternative remedies that have not been proven to work, simply because there is no big industry to pay for studies. But they help. I haven't taken a single painkiller tablet in a decade.
Thanks everyone I can't take "medicines" as i am allergic to so many different types and at the moment I couldn't stand a massage as the slightest pressure on my back is unbearable so have looked up Bob's suggestion and think i'll give it a go.
I am no doctor, but as a first point of call I would make sure that your back pain has no other reason but age and muscle problems. (Lung problem can cause lower back pain, so can spine problems and a whole lot of other things).
If you are (like me) get back pain from sitting, standing and walking.. and even wake up with it, then it's hard to get rid off. I find that exercising helps a lot, as it strengthens the muscles. On bad days a soak in a hot bath is ideal as it relaxes the muscles. I take oil of oregano, as it is an antihistamine (midge bites) and an anti inflammatory (muscle and joint pain) and it really helps.
Active garlic is a natural pain killer, if you aren't allergic to bulb plants.
I used to take conventional pain killers which gave me stomach pains and indigestion and my body got used to them, so they had to be stronger and stronger....
I take oregano oil for 2 weeks then have a week off and it works wonders for me. 20 pounds bought through amazon (extra strength one) and it lasts around 6 months.
Google "natural pain killer", there should be loads of information.
Good luck and feel free to pm me.
redeyedtreefrog
06-Sep-09, 11:53
Where did you get that kind of information from? It is simply wrong. Natural problems can easily be cured with natural (or "alternative") remedies or therapies. They have been proven to work for hundreds of years and are called medicines.
I have no problem with natural remedies that have evidence behind them, like aspirin. I's much rather use medicines that actually work than the ones you describe which can probably be put down to the placebo effect.
I have no problem with natural remedies that have evidence behind them, like aspirin. I's much rather use medicines that actually work than the ones you describe which can probably be put down to the placebo effect.
There are lots of studies out there that show application such as hypnosis, acupuncture etc in cases of pain management have had considerable effects out with the placebo etc. I posted a list of links in regard to homeopathy double blind studies a year or so ago in this forum, so I am not going to tread backwards. The Alexander and Bowen methods (both so called alternatives) can work well on back pain.
In regard to back ache, a lot of people suffer due to a weakened core, and properly guided exercise to work the stabilising muscles such as the erector spinae, Transversus Abdominis etc can resolve a lot of lower back pain, as a lot of pain is due to poor posture derived over loss of active exercise and bad posture in work related areas and home life. The core muscles assist in maintaining the lumbar spine.
One of the reasons why we are setting up exercise on prescription at Dunbeath Surgery is to tackle these type of issues and if anyone wants advice or a wellness program they can contact me at Dunbeath Surgery. I am hoping to have a new interactive website up soon which will have articles and related forum discussion areas on topics such as this.
In the meantime you should go see your GP and see what they can provide and rule out for you.
Andrew Usher
Dunbeath Surgery.
redeyedtreefrog
06-Sep-09, 12:53
There are lots of studies out there that show application such as hypnosis, acupuncture etc in cases of pain management have had considerable effects out with the placebo etc. I posted a list of links in regard to homeopathy double blind studies a year or so ago in this forum, so I am not going to tread backwards.
Homeopathy? Do you know that you'd have to have a tank the size of the Solar System filled with a homeopathic remedy to have one molecule of active ingredient left? Homeopathy is when you dilute something to the point where there's virtually no active ingredient left.
As for acupuncture, all legitimate studies show that it has no more effects than a placebo. The conclusion the acupuncturists drew was that "The placebo works too".
Homeopathy? Do you know that you'd have to have a tank the size of the Solar System filled with a homeopathic remedy to have one molecule of active ingredient left? Homeopathy is when you dilute something to the point where there's virtually no active ingredient left.
As for acupuncture, all legitimate studies show that it has no more effects than a placebo. The conclusion the acupuncturists drew was that "The placebo works too".
Well, this shows you ignorance in regard to homeopathy, as not all homeopathic medicines are diluted beyond Avogadro's hypothesis The main application is in conjunction with the law of similars. BUT, if you had looked at good peer reviewed research papers you would have known this. Homeopathy and its theory and application goes way beyond just diluting an active ingredient, but you know that right?
I would like to see your peer reviewed and tightly run experimentally designed studies in regard to accupuncture.
Andrew.
redeyedtreefrog
06-Sep-09, 13:11
Well, this shows you ignorance in regard to homeopathy, as not all homeopathic medicines are diluted beyond Avogadro's hypothesis The main application is in conjunction with the law of similars. BUT, if you had looked at good peer reviewed research papers you would have known this. Homeopathy and its theory and application goes way beyond just diluting an active ingredient, but you know that right?
I would like to see your peer reviewed and tightly run experimentally designed studies in regard to accupuncture.
Okay, if you can show me one example in the history of the world of a single homeopathic practitioner who has been able to prove under reasonable experimental conditions that solutions made up of infinitely tiny particles of good stuff dissolved repeatedly into relatively huge quantities of water have a consistently higher medicinal value than a similarly administered placebo, then I'll shut up.
As for acupuncture, listen to some science podcasts. I'd recommend The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe. Or just google. I cant really be bothered, I'm having lunch.
I cant really be bothered, I'm having lunch.
Wouldn't it be fabulous if someone invented the homeopathic lunch? The more you dilute it the more nourishing and satisfying it would become and supermarket wars would become a thing of the past. :D
As implied, they are alternative remedies. By definition, they either have not been proven to work, or been proven not to work. You know that they call medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine.
So what has modern medicine evolved from? Centuries of witchcraft/voodoo/alternative/complimentary types of treatment.
I've just had a look at the info leaflet in a pack of Anadin Extra to see what the possible side effects are. They include difficulty in breathing, skin rash, swollen features, runny nose, abdominal pain, nausea, heartburn....the list goes on. Is it any wonder that some people prefer to try 'alternative' remedies?
So what has modern medicine evolved from? Centuries of witchcraft/voodoo/alternative/complimentary types of treatment.
I've just had a look at the info leaflet in a pack of Anadin Extra to see what the possible side effects are. They include difficulty in breathing, skin rash, swollen features, runny nose, abdominal pain, nausea, heartburn....the list goes on. Is it any wonder that some people prefer to try 'alternative' remedies?
Worth also noting is that some conventional medicines on the market have shown not to have any effect better than placebo itself. And the flip side of alternative medicines are that some approaches we have witnessed have been dangerously applied, with some practitioners having no training in Anatomy and Physiology etc.
It just doesnt hold in an alternative therapies though, an example is martial arts, i have come across lots of martial arts instructors who have no understanding of exercise science, yet had their students perform all sorts of stretches and holds without adequate knowledge.
Its a scary world, lol.....
Alice in Blunderland
06-Sep-09, 14:36
One of the reasons why we are setting up exercise on prescription at Dunbeath Surgery is to tackle these type of issues and if anyone wants advice or a wellness program they can contact me at Dunbeath Surgery. I am hoping to have a new interactive website up soon which will have articles and related forum discussion areas on topics such as this.
In the meantime you should go see your GP and see what they can provide and rule out for you.
Andrew Usher
Dunbeath Surgery.
Excercise on perscription:
Who is prescribing the excercise to the patient and who is providing the excercise classes routine or advice. :)
I take it the surgery is then in turn charging the NHS for this service ?
Excercise on perscription:
Who is prescribing the excercise to the patient and who is providing the excercise classes routine or advice. :)
I take it the surgery is then in turn charging the NHS for this service ?
Its odd but I was thinking about this and because of my history with Mr Usher I was reluctant to post. However I'll be nice. :lol:
Whilst I caught the drift on the need for exercise in the recovery of patients I wondered how much more the NHS was embracing alternative therapies. Do other surgeries supply such modern methods?
I'm not knocking it. Just interested, although I have opinions about it and I dont think they are set in stone.
Excercise on perscription:
Who is prescribing the excercise to the patient and who is providing the excercise classes routine or advice. :)
I believe Dr Usher is a GP :)
Alice in Blunderland
06-Sep-09, 15:05
I believe Dr Usher is a GP :)
Dr N Usher is a GP however I believe Mr A Usher is a practice manager.
Its odd but I was thinking about this and because of my history with Mr Usher I was reluctant to post. However I'll be nice. :lol:
Whilst I caught the drift on the need for exercise in the recovery of patients I wondered how much more the NHS was embracing alternative therapies. Do other surgeries supply such modern methods?
I'm not knocking it. Just interested, although I have opinions about it and I dont think they are set in stone.
GP refers to me ( I am about to complete a level REPS certified PT course), and then I and or nutrionist put together program and work with the client.
At present everything out with conventional medicine is funded out of our own money, the NHS dont fund anything. Its been this way since we have had the practice for the last 7 or so years. We invest a lot of our own money into training in order to pass it back to the patients. Ideally something like exercise on prescription would be funded, and ill approach the trust about it when the time is right. Obesity, Heart Disease on the the increase, and anything we can do to reduce it is only a good thing in our view.
Andrew.
Dr N Usher is a GP however I believe Mr A Usher is a practice manager.
Ah never saw the initials... I'm sure as the husband of a GP he is fairly qualified to comment. And as a martial arts expert I'm sure he is qualified to talk about fitness :)
GP refers to me ( I am about to complete a level REPS certified PT course), and then I and or nutrionist put together program and work with the client.
At present everything out with conventional medicine is funded out of our own money, the NHS dont fund anything. Its been this way since we have had the practice for the last 7 or so years. We invest a lot of our own money into training in order to pass it back to the patients. Ideally something like exercise on prescription would be funded, and ill approach the trust about it when the time is right. Obesity, Heart Disease on the the increase, and anything we can do to reduce it is only a good thing in our view.
Andrew.
I wasnt questioning your qualifications. I was more interested in what appears to be a modern thing. I grew up with traditional medicine from the 50s until now. There was always an alternative market but it was seperate from NHS by some kind of dividing line. Its interesting to see the 2 coming together.
Ah never saw the initials... I'm sure as the husband of a GP he is fairly qualified to comment. And as a martial arts expert I'm sure he is qualified to talk about fitness :)
Wrong, so very wrong. Just because someone is married to an expert doesn't mean you should trust their advice. Would you trust a heart surgeons spouse to carry out open heart surgery if the surgeon was too busy? :(
Ah never saw the initials... I'm sure as the husband of a GP he is fairly qualified to comment. And as a martial arts expert I'm sure he is qualified to talk about fitness :)
Did you catch that dog yet? :roll:
Alice in Blunderland
06-Sep-09, 15:19
Ah never saw the initials... I'm sure as the husband of a GP he is fairly qualified to comment. And as a martial arts expert I'm sure he is qualified to talk about fitness :)
I am not talking qualifications on this one I am asking about the funding ?
I appreciate and am aware Mr Ushers qualifications and don't question them.
Hi Gleeber,
No i wasnt questioning, you questioining my qualificaitons, i just wanted to make it clear that unlike a lot of PT's out there, our route in has been through governement approved training, in order to provide it.
I think we are the only practice to offer a variety of treatments, and it stems back to Natasah pushing me to study various forms of comp medicine, as after i left Uni i didnt want a career in clinical pyschology. I looked at various forms and left it at that. When we took the practice over several patients mentioend therapy models and comp medicine models and we set out to look at what had viabilty, and the two we adopted was clinical hypnosis and homeopathy.
I disgarded lots, because i am sketpical in a lot of areas myself. Everything out with at the surgery is as above paid out of Natasha and I's own pocket and clinically tried.
One of the reasons i put on workshops on comp medicine is to show the pro's and cons, ask anyone who comes to the workshop. Similarly all the martial arts classes are centred around good fitness practice and regime. I believe its the only way to be.
Alice in Blunderland
06-Sep-09, 15:27
Wrong, so very wrong. Just become someone is married to an expert doesn't mean you should trust their advice. Would you trust a heart surgeons spouse to carry out open heart surgery if the surgeon was too busy? :(
I agree with you on this one. :D
Hi Gleeber,
No i wasnt questioning, you questioining my qualificaitons, i just wanted to make it clear that unlike a lot of PT's out there, our route in has been through governement approved training, in order to provide it.
I think we are the only practice to offer a variety of treatments, and it stems back to Natasah pushing me to study various forms of comp medicine, as after i left Uni i didnt want a career in clinical pyschology. I looked at various forms and left it at that. When we took the practice over several patients mentioend therapy models and comp medicine models and we set out to look at what had viabilty, and the two we adopted was clinical hypnosis and homeopathy.
I disgarded lots, because i am sketpical in a lot of areas myself. Everything out with at the surgery is as above paid out of Natasha and I's own pocket and clinically tried.
One of the reasons i put on workshops on comp medicine is to show the pro's and cons, ask anyone who comes to the workshop. Similarly all the martial arts classes are centred around good fitness practice and regime. I believe its the only way to be.
That may well be admirable aims but consider the changes you are talking about?
Although I understand some of your ideas I am uncomfortable with others.
Maybe this is not the best place to discuss these things because alternative therapies are contraversial and because of your position it would be best left alone.
That may well be admirable aims but consider the changes you are talking about?
Although I understand some of your ideas I am uncomfortable with others.
Maybe this is not the best place to discuss these things because alternative therapies are contraversial and because of your position it would be best left alone.
We like to think we are patient centred, and for Natasha medicine is vocation and not occupation. We offer what we do because there has been an interest and demand for it.
It has to have a medical basis though, and adhere to the general principals of medicine.
We dont offer for example, hot stones, aura reading etc, and we are not alternative in that way. Probably the only thing we offer that makes people stand up is the homeopathy, but even that is in conjunction with the GP adhering the NHS guidelines.
I dont actually see that many patients for homeopathy, Natasha sees patients for that. The bulk of people who come to me are referals for clincal hypnosis or excercise and rehab, as i do a lot of sports work and fitness, one of the reasons why i am intending going deeper with REPS courses into cardio rehab, exercise for special populations etc.
I am more than happy to discuss and take the heat :), i take what is written with a pinch of salt, and have a thick skin (although due to mostly my psoriasis).
Andrew.
I am more than happy to discuss and take the heat :), i take what is written with a pinch of salt, and have a thick skin (although due to mostly my psoriasis).
Andrew.
Isnt it ironic. A man with the cure to lots and he has psoriasis. :confused
Im being flippant forgive me. I had psorasis for years but about 9 years ago I started to get on top of it. I dont heve any now and I never really did anything. Maybe I was just lucky.
Isnt it ironic. A man with the cure to lots and he has psoriasis. :confused
Im being flippant forgive me. I had psorasis for years but about 9 years ago I started to get on top of it. I dont heve any now and I never really did anything. Maybe I was just lucky.
I never said i cured anything, lol.
I never said i cured anything, lol.
Your not going to believe this Andrew, but apparently never did jesus. ;)
Your not going to believe this Andrew, but apparently never did jesus. ;)
Yeah, i always said he was a fake! :)
Alice in Blunderland
06-Sep-09, 16:32
GP refers to me ( I am about to complete a level REPS certified PT course), and then I and or nutrionist put together program and work with the client.
At present everything out with conventional medicine is funded out of our own money, the NHS dont fund anything.
Andrew.
Is this not financial suicide ? :eek:
All GPs have to be funded from somewhere they also have to pay the bills and salaries of the staff. :confused
I was under the impression that prescribed exercise was refundable ? The Gym in Wick can provide this on GP prescription also can they not ? :confused
Is this not financial suicide ? :eek:
All GPs have to be funded from somewhere they also have to pay the bills and salaries of the staff. :confused
I was under the impression that prescribed exercise was refundable ? The Gym in Wick can provide this on GP prescription also can they not ? :confused
We get income from list size, dispensing income etc, and use that for the day to day running of surgery. wages, staff etc. Enhanced Services are funded through a different pot of cash. Different PCT's have different options available and divide the funding in different ways. As far as we are aware personal training is not available up here as an option.I am not sure if the Gym in Wick can provide exercise on prescription. I think some wellness options are available such as healthy walks, but i am not 100 percent on this. I am pretty sure no one offers exercise on prescription, and if they do i would love to hear from them. REPS and other professional bodies for accreditation expect those offering the service to be REPS level 3 and have completed the exercise on prescription course, irrespective of medical qualification.
There has never been money available for homeopathy to be offered via our surgery, nor hypnosis, so we have always offered these services to our patients free of charge, picking up the cost on time via our income. We have invested the money for REPS accredited training and will offer to our patients free as normal, but i am hoping we can develop the service Caithness wide.
Alice in Blunderland
06-Sep-09, 18:24
There has never been money available for homeopathy to be offered via our surgery, nor hypnosis, so we have always offered these services to our patients free of charge, picking up the cost on time via our income.
So indirectly someone is paying for it. :confused
So indirectly someone is paying for it. :confused
Yes, me, either out my private income through my other work, or my salary from the Surgery, but not the NHS.
Similarly the same with workshops we have put on over the last few years, no pennies where taken, all expenses covered by my own cash.
Margaret M.
06-Sep-09, 18:28
I am delighted that many doctors in the U.S. are seeing the value of a combination of traditional and alternative medicine. What I love about the natural medicine approach is the effort that goes into finding the cause. One will get something to bring comfort if in pain but their emphasis is still on eliminating the cause of the problem. Due to time constraints, mainstream doctors seldom look at the total picture of a patient.
As for the back pain, from my personal experience, I would recommend acupuncture or a trip to an osteopath.
Redeyedfrog: tell my dog that acupuncture is not supposed to be effective. He gets a treatment once a month and has difficulty walking right before his treatment is due. Immediately after he gets it, he runs around like a puppy. Why acupuncture? The regular vet had prescribed medication for him with a long list of side effects one of which was death. I chose a safer path.
George Brims
06-Sep-09, 18:33
In regard to back ache, a lot of people suffer due to a weakened core, and properly guided exercise to work the stabilising muscles such as the erector spinae, Transversus Abdominis etc can resolve a lot of lower back pain, as a lot of pain is due to poor posture derived over loss of active exercise and bad posture in work related areas and home life. The core muscles assist in maintaining the lumbar spine.
But how do you help someone already in so much pain they can't take the slightest exercise? The longer they are forced to be sedentary, the worse the muscle weakness is going to get.
I unfortunately have some experience with this vicious circle, as I have a congenital problem with my lower back, spina bifida occulta.
But how do you help someone already in so much pain they can't take the slightest exercise? The longer they are forced to be sedentary, the worse the muscle weakness is going to get.
I unfortunately have some experience with this vicious circle, as I have a congenital problem with my lower back, spina bifida occulta.
Hi George,
In the case you mentioned then exercise in the first instance isnt going to be applicable, you would be looking at a longer more progressive case of GP and Consultant intervention, some physio and slower exercise periods.
Subtle exercise with less range of movement and joint loading etc, but that would be further down the line and would have to be scheduled and worked in accordance with GP etc.
Alice in Blunderland
07-Sep-09, 11:39
Yes, me, either out my private income through my other work, or my salary from the Surgery, but not the NHS.
Similarly the same with workshops we have put on over the last few years, no pennies where taken, all expenses covered by my own cash.
This service which you are providing is it outwith your normal 9-5 hours which your salary is covered by from funding from the Goverenment. I must be missing the point somewhere. The Government funds the surgery wages as stated in your earlier post, which you are usng to provide the time for this service so indirectly they are part funding what you are offering....no. :confused
If there is one thing in lfe I have learned you get nothing for nothing maybe Im just a sceptic.
PCT's is this in England not in Scotland.
You could try reflexology
http://www.reflexory.co.uk
This service which you are providing is it outwith your normal 9-5 hours which your salary is covered by from funding from the Goverenment. I must be missing the point somewhere. The Government funds the surgery wages as stated in your earlier post, which you are usng to provide the time for this service so indirectly they are part funding what you are offering....no. :confused
If there is one thing in lfe I have learned you get nothing for nothing maybe Im just a sceptic.
PCT's is this in England not in Scotland.
Your nitpicking. Im not going to discuss personal income and how i obtain it on this forum. Ive made it clear that to date no training or services outwith normal NHS provisions have come from money for the day to day runing of NHS services provided via our surgery. If you want a break down of my involvement as a partner in the practice then PM me or call me at the surgery, but some matters, such as my personal income wont be discussed here. At the end of the day how i choose to spend my income is my matter and not yours Alice.
Alice in Blunderland
07-Sep-09, 12:09
I seem to have hit a nerve with you here.
I dont care about your personal income and what you do with it. Post on an open forum and people will ask questions of your claims and statements its natural. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. :)
I seem to have hit a nerve with you here.
I dont care about your personal income and what you do with it. Post on an open people will ask questions of your claims and statements its natural. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. :)
Well you obviously do care about my personal income as ive made it clear what i do with it, and your nitpicking. If you are unsure about what we do or provide, or how we provide it then you are more than welcome to contact me personally via telephone or email off the forum. I think ive made it fairly clear that we have given our own time and personally derived income in order to provide extra services to our patients, and that are commited to the continual development of our little practice in order to give as much service to our patients that we can. I think i have been fairly open on this forum over the years as to what i do.
Andrew.
I think i have been fairly open on this forum over the years as to what i do.Andrew.
You certainly have and thats why your opinions attract the attention of those of us with an interest in the same things as yourself.
As for Alice. I dont think she is nit-picking. This is a very interesting thread for more reasons than one. NHS and funding is a very relevant topic. Mind you my interpretation of your posts lead me to believe that the NHS contributes absolutely nothing to the system you have set up in Dunbeath. There does appear to be a slight hesitation to address Alices point though. ;)
The power of your knowledge took over this thread and I for one find it very interesting for a differnt reason than Alice. I have a very traditional view of medicine although over the years Ive fiddled with most of the alternative therapies and found them lacking in depth. Just my opinion. I dont have the same knowledge as you but I'll tell you one thing. Your knowledge is controversial and there's not many professional bodies would support some of your claims about alternative therapies. Nor for that matter let them in the door.That's what I find so fascinating about this thread. Controversial therapies being used and encouraged in a NHS setting.
Unless I've missed something recently you will have to admit its at the very least, unusual.
Hi Gleeber,
No i wasnt questioning, you questioining my qualificaitons, i just wanted to make it clear that unlike a lot of PT's out there, our route in has been through governement approved training, in order to provide it.
I think we are the only practice to offer a variety of treatments, and it stems back to Natasah pushing me to study various forms of comp medicine, as after i left Uni i didnt want a career in clinical pyschology. I looked at various forms and left it at that. When we took the practice over several patients mentioend therapy models and comp medicine models and we set out to look at what had viabilty, and the two we adopted was clinical hypnosis and homeopathy.
I disgarded lots, because i am sketpical in a lot of areas myself. Everything out with at the surgery is as above paid out of Natasha and I's own pocket and clinically tried.
One of the reasons i put on workshops on comp medicine is to show the pro's and cons, ask anyone who comes to the workshop. Similarly all the martial arts classes are centred around good fitness practice and regime. I believe its the only way to be.
You are beginning to worry me. Apart from your spelling and grammar, does your (presumably) NHS registered G.P. wife, practising in the Caithness area, know what you are posting on an open forum?
©Amethyst
07-Sep-09, 21:33
Exercise on prescription....
Now there's a thought - only, so many people know that there are council funded gyms that they just can't be bothered to go and use.
I hope the original poster has found something that works for their back pain. Just over 3 months on and I am still struggling with pain, although once my back is better I hope to further improve the strength of my "pathetically weak" back through exercise... Something like prescription exercise might be a help.
I'll not go into funding etc... as I am useless when it comes to NHS (or otherwise) financial stuff. lol
WickWitch
07-Sep-09, 21:42
Do you know what is causing the pain? If it is muscular then you could try gentle stretching. Kneel on all fours and alternatively raise and lower your back by arching like a cat. Try supporting your back by pulling in your tummy. It is difficult to suggest anything without knowing the cause. Pineapple and ginger can help with inflammation.
I'm sorry that I can't be more helpful but I hope that you find some relief soon
Alice in Blunderland
07-Sep-09, 21:43
Ideally something like exercise on prescription would be funded, and ill approach the trust about it when the time is right. Obesity, Heart Disease on the the increase, and anything we can do to reduce it is only a good thing in our view.
Andrew.
Yes heart disease and other such illnesses are on the increase but in times of budget constraints and constantly increasing costs I feel there may never be a right time to approach for funding for alternative medicine or exercise. These I feel are not top priority when it comes to funding and as such should be kept within the private sector. IMHO Funding is a fine balance you tip the scales in favour of one thing then another is bound to suffer.
Your nitpicking. Im not going to discuss personal income and how i obtain it on this forum. Ive made it clear that to date no training or services outwith normal NHS provisions have come from money for the day to day runing of NHS services provided via our surgery. If you want a break down of my involvement as a partner in the practice then PM me or call me at the surgery, but some matters, such as my personal income wont be discussed here. At the end of the day how i choose to spend my income is my matter and not yours Alice.
No not nitpicking just challenging some of your statements regarding how you claim to self fund this treatment for your patients. :) Open forum I thought that was allowed.
Well you obviously do care about my personal income as ive made it clear what i do with it, and your nitpicking. If you are unsure about what we do or provide, or how we provide it then you are more than welcome to contact me personally via telephone or email off the forum. I think ive made it fairly clear that we have given our own time and personally derived income in order to provide extra services to our patients, and that are commited to the continual development of our little practice in order to give as much service to our patients that we can. I think i have been fairly open on this forum over the years as to what i do.
Andrew.
I already stated I dont care about your personal income nor what you spend it on. I will pass on the contacting you personally on this issue as I feel at present you could be rather busy
< looking for the dummies you seem to have spat on the floor because I questioned you>.
Take a good long hard look at your replies some of them are quite aggressive/ angry have you considered anger management to help you stay calm. ;)
Can I just finish by adding that I have nothing against complimentary medicine in its rightful place.
I do hope that stigy in the end finds some relief to his pain. :)
©Amethyst
07-Sep-09, 21:58
Do you know what is causing the pain? If it is muscular then you could try gentle stretching. Kneel on all fours and alternatively raise and lower your back by arching like a cat. Try supporting your back by pulling in your tummy. It is difficult to suggest anything without knowing the cause. Pineapple and ginger can help with inflammation.
I'm sorry that I can't be more helpful but I hope that you find some relief soon
Thank you. The Physio has me doing all sorts of exercises. It seems that if I were to bend backwards, compressing my spine one way it worsens so the cat-like exercise sounds similar to one of the exercises I've been doing (as my last physio was getting me to compress rather than stretch) and I think it's helping a little.
We don't know the cause of it, although I suspect it started as one thing and turned into something else. Got an appointment with a doctor tomorrow - thinking about asking (or begging) to see if anything else can be done.
Pineapple and ginger sounds nice... will give it a try!
You certainly have and thats why your opinions attract the attention of those of us with an interest in the same things as yourself.
As for Alice. I dont think she is nit-picking. This is a very interesting thread for more reasons than one. NHS and funding is a very relevant topic. Mind you my interpretation of your posts lead me to believe that the NHS contributes absolutely nothing to the system you have set up in Dunbeath. There does appear to be a slight hesitation to address Alices point though. ;)
The power of your knowledge took over this thread and I for one find it very interesting for a differnt reason than Alice. I have a very traditional view of medicine although over the years Ive fiddled with most of the alternative therapies and found them lacking in depth. Just my opinion. I dont have the same knowledge as you but I'll tell you one thing. Your knowledge is controversial and there's not many professional bodies would support some of your claims about alternative therapies. Nor for that matter let them in the door.That's what I find so fascinating about this thread. Controversial therapies being used and encouraged in a NHS setting.
Unless I've missed something recently you will have to admit its at the very least, unusual.
Hi Gleeber,
I think i have addressed Alice's points, so i dont think i need to go back through that. I wouldnt say my knowledge is controversial, no one has ever said that to me before, lol. I havent made a lot of claims in regard to alternative therapies either, ive expressed an opinion on the two that we offer, namely Homeopathy and Hypnosis, both of which are used widely within the NHS. We dont, as mentioned previously offer stone heating, slug juice or other, the two that we offer are in many places available via the NHS. Natasha is trained in homeopathy via the homeopathic hospital, and NHS hospital. Homeopathy is available via an NHS referal, although has a long waiting list i believe. So the therapies that we offer are actually within the NHS framework, and really therefore not alternative.
Moira, i will confess to bad grammar and spelling, unfortunately as mentioned in threads previously i have dyslexia, which gets me bad on then there forums :)
As for my wife knowing what i post, then i am pretty sure she does.
Alice:
Yes heart disease and other such illnesses are on the increase but in times of budget constraints and constantly increasing costs I feel there may never be a right time to approach for funding for alternative medicine or exercise. These I feel are not top priority when it comes to funding and as such should be kept within the private sector. IMHO Funding is a fine balance you tip the scales in favour of one thing then another is bound to suffer.
Exercise on prescription is being widely accepted by the NHS as a cost saving way to work towards preventative medicine, and exercise on prescription is not an alternative form of medicine. It has a strong case for being an available option for health care, and an option widely being adopted by many practices south of Caithness.
Andrew.
<snip>
Moira, i will confess to bad grammar and spelling, unfortunately as mentioned in threads previously i have dyslexia, which gets me bad on then there forums :)
As for my wife knowing what i post, then i am pretty sure she does. <snip>
Andrew.
Thanks for that Andrew. I had no idea you had dyslexia so therefore apologise for picking you up on that earlier. Am I right in thinking that some folk with dyslexia can actually learn how to spell certain, frequently used words and have the ability to memorise them?
Your "pretty sure" answer is not quite sure enough for me, sorry. :confused
Hi Moira,
yes my wife does know what I post, sometimes I'll even get her to spell check for me. :)
With respect, Andrew, that's not what you said earlier.
Can I suggest your wife finds a better spell-checker? ;)
Hi Moira,
I said pretty sure in jest, as obviously she knows what I am posting.
We obviously work closely together. She doesn't spell check that often, lol as she hates forums as it's devoid of the subtlties of verbal communication, case in example my comment of "pretty sure".
Alice in Blunderland
07-Sep-09, 23:21
she hates forums as it's devoid of the subtlties of verbal communication,
I dont know it has its advantages.
She wont be the first doctor to find it an interesting place to be. :)
Hi Moira,
I said pretty sure in jest, as obviously she knows what I am posting.
We obviously work closely together. She doesn't spell check that often, lol as she hates forums as it's devoid of the subtlties of verbal communication, case in example my comment of "pretty sure".
Several things may be obvious to you Andrew, but you really have to be careful when posting on a public forum. If the partner of my GP started to post here with a similar agenda to your own, I'd have to move countries.
Your wife is right - forums are devoid of feeling and/or "subtlties" as you put it.
Good luck with your practice management but I fear you are treading a very fine line.
Several things may be obvious to you Andrew, but you really have to be careful when posting on a public forum. If the partner of my GP started to post here with a similar agenda to your own, I'd have to move countries.
Your wife is right - forums are devoid of feeling and/or "subtlties" as you put it.
Good luck with your practice management but I fear you are treading a very fine line.
Hi Moira,
I am not sure what you mean by agend i am only stating what is available at our practice, and as stated what is available as an enhanced services through out the UK on the NHS. Ive posted this information on and off over the last 5 or so years on this forum, highlighting our free workshops and health promotions. I am not sure what you mean by a very fine line.
If it is to do with us offering homeopathy, then you should understand that Scotland has quite a few GP homeopaths, in fact a considerable number, most of which have trained through the faculty of homeopathy. I am not sure if they are still contracted by the NHS but a few years ago a couple of lay homeopaths where taking NHS referals in Inverness. So the service at one point has been funded by the Highland PCT, although i am not sure if it still funds that service.
starflower
08-Sep-09, 09:45
Hi Stiggy just wanted to share my experience of back pain I too find taking painkillers a struggle. I have had back pain for numerous years and have tried several ways to ease my pain, the two which have helped me have been the doctor referring me to the physiotherapist and also visiting the osteopath, who both also gave me good exercises to follow, on top of that swimming has helped. I feel it is all down to you as an individual what works for you quite often I have tried various alternative therapies which just haven't worked, but for me I found the osteopath the best option.
Hope this helps:)
annthracks
08-Sep-09, 12:54
Originally Posted by redeyedtreefrog
As implied, they are alternative remedies. By definition, they either have not been proven to work, or been proven not to work. You know that they call medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine.
Got anymore of Dara O'Briain's Jokes?
weeboyagee
08-Sep-09, 14:26
....I am only stating what is available at our practice, and as stated what is available as an enhanced services through out the UK on the NHS. Ive posted this information on and off over the last 5 or so years on this forum, highlighting our free workshops and health promotions. I am not sure what you mean by a very fine line.
I think what is being meant is the fine line between professional promotion and social engagement. In my experience the two do not often go comfortably together. I think you have definitely proved that on this thread. My advice would be to dis-engage from similar topics once you have to explain the mechanics of your business or where you have to justify it and absolutely where you end up referring to financing or cost.
I would think that you acutally did cross the professional line on this thread. Purely my opinion but how does your business look after you have fairly unneccesarily had to defend it? Questions only get fired at you when you have given ammunition suffice to have them posed. If you don't want the question asked, don't give rise to it by giving cause. If you do give rise to it, answer. Not to, as you took the position of earlier in this thread, can give rise to suspicion.
WBG :cool:
Hi Moira,
I am not sure what you mean by agend i am only stating what is available at our practice, and as stated what is available as an enhanced services through out the UK on the NHS. Ive posted this information on and off over the last 5 or so years on this forum, highlighting our free workshops and health promotions. I am not sure what you mean by a very fine line.
If it is to do with us offering homeopathy,by the Highland PCT, ......
It's been a few days but I do feel that I owe you the courtesy of a reply. As a practice manager I would have expected you to know the meaning of the word "agenda". Similarly, I would have expected you to know how a business plan works. My own understanding is that the NHS are in financial crisis so I am intrigued by the "enhanced services" which you mention.
No, this has nothing to do with you "offering homeopathy, by the "Highland PCT", though you do need to update your terminology.
It has more to do with me feeling decidedly ill at ease with a local GP practice advertising alternative therapies on a widely-read local forum.
I've had experience of both interventions, the medical and the alternative kind - both worked out well, thankfully. I think I was lucky. :)
It's been a few days but I do feel that I owe you the courtesy of a reply. As a practice manager I would have expected you to know the meaning of the word "agenda". Similarly, I would have expected you to know how a business plan works. My own understanding is that the NHS are in financial crisis so I am intrigued by the "enhanced services" which you mention.
No, this has nothing to do with you "offering homeopathy, by the "Highland PCT", though you do need to update your terminology.
It has more to do with me feeling decidedly ill at ease with a local GP practice advertising alternative therapies on a widely-read local forum.
I've had experience of both interventions, the medical and the alternative kind - both worked out well, thankfully. I think I was lucky. :)
Moira,
Thank you for your concern regarding my understanding of a business plan, but i can assure you i know how to run my business.
Enhanced services are thing such as minor surgery, minor injuries, anticoagulation, coil insertions, specialist diabetic care, near patient testing (i.e. taking bloods of behalf of the hospital) and extended opening hours. Previously many of the above services were part of day to day General Practice, but unfunded, then the new GP contract was negotiated and day to work was broken into core essential areas and enhanced services. These core essential services are the provision of care to those who are ill or who consider themselves to be ill. Now not all practices provide enhanced services. For example our practice doesn’t provide coil fitting. Minor Injuries is another area that some practices no longer offer. Practices who offer an enhanced service receive payment for it. It is outwith the scope of this post or forum to thoroughly explain income streams, and as previously stated something i won't discuss online., which is why i keep those discussions brief. I hope that explains enhanced services as provided by the Health Board (local enhanced services) and Scottish Government directed (directed enhanced services). The Health Board can negotiate local enhanced services for specific needs, eg the current diabetes service for patients on insulin.
As per your feeling about a practice offering and advertising alternative therapies, then i appreciate your concerns, but as explained time and time again those services work alongside patient care and not as an alternative. Homeopathy works as per the NHS framework, as also explained it is available on the NHS, although has a waiting list. Many practices offer this service in areas such as Grampian. Inverness has one GP Homeopath and one lay homeopath who take referrals, and this has been available for many years. Services such as we offer are not alternative, they work in conjunction with clinical care, in many of these threads i have pitched in and commented when people have misunderstood "alternative medicine", and have failed to understand that many of those services have been available within the NHS network, be it north of the border or south for some time. I have highlighted this, the only real advertising, if you want to call it that has been the workshops i have offered, again which have been based around the premise of informing individuals what has been available globally within the NHS, what has and hasn’t had evidence based practice etc. If you look back over the forum, those workshops have been available for several years. Likewise we have provided stress management workshops etc.
Moira, I take your thoughts on board, as i do with everyone who posts, i may not agree, nor you with me, but i wouldn’t post on this forum, or have done over the years if i were not comfortable with posting. I also like to be fairly transparent about what we provide and will continue to do so. What we provide is not out with what other practices elsewhere offer or NHS guidelines. What we do like to do is to assist patients where we can, take on ideas and suggestions, look at the provision of care and enhanced services and provide where possible. Likewise we appreciate our patient feedback, and continually monitor for developments. My idea of a rural practice is that its community led, and if the provisions we offered were not acceptable or unwanted, we wouldn’t have been offering them for the last 5 or so years. This is my last comments on this thread.
Andrew.
Whenever there is a discussion on the radio between conventional and alternative medical practicioners I have noticed the conventional tend to be rude and arrogant whereas the alternatives sound more reasonable. Of course this could just be due to choice of interviewees but the conventionals usually state that because alternative cannot be proved it is worthless. They are never asked about the huge numbers of people who are made ill or die by the drugs they are prescribed. I avoid drugs of any kind like the plague as I have seen what they do to my friends and acquaintances. I'm sure they have their place but they are over-used and often carelessly prescribed with disastrous effects.
I read recently that pharmaceutical companies are in disarray because they are forced to test their new products against placebos and the placebos are increasingly winning - no-one quite knows why. Can't find the original article but this is a similar one
http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo_effect?currentPage=all
The only problem I have with this is that a placebo works if you believe in it and it seems the body heals itself. If drugs are replaced by placebos, so you know what you're taking, will they still work?
Moira,
Thank you for your concern... <snip>
This is my last comments on this thread.
Andrew.
Thanks for your comprehensive reply - much appreciated.
redeyedtreefrog
15-Sep-09, 22:03
Hi Moira,
I am not sure what you mean by agend i am only stating what is available at our practice, and as stated what is available as an enhanced services through out the UK on the NHS. Ive posted this information on and off over the last 5 or so years on this forum, highlighting our free workshops and health promotions. I am not sure what you mean by a very fine line.
If it is to do with us offering homeopathy, then you should understand that Scotland has quite a few GP homeopaths, in fact a considerable number, most of which have trained through the faculty of homeopathy. I am not sure if they are still contracted by the NHS but a few years ago a couple of lay homeopaths where taking NHS referals in Inverness. So the service at one point has been funded by the Highland PCT, although i am not sure if it still funds that service.
Please link me to some legitimate peer-reviewed studies that suggest homeopathy works?
Please link me to some legitimate peer-reviewed studies that suggest homeopathy works?
You need to contact Specsavers redeyedtreefrog or at least invest in some Optrex. I can personally recommend the latter.
Meantime, try reading this part again :-
....<snip>
This is my last comments on this thread.
<snip>
Andrew.
redeyedtreefrog
16-Sep-09, 17:02
You need to contact Specsavers redeyedtreefrog or at least invest in some Optrex. I can personally recommend the latter.
Sorry, didnt notice that. My mistake.
PM sent to both of you with a brief list of some studies.
Andrew.
redeyedtreefrog
16-Sep-09, 18:34
Originally Posted by redeyedtreefrog
As implied, they are alternative remedies. By definition, they either have not been proven to work, or been proven not to work. You know that they call medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine.
Got anymore of Dara O'Briain's Jokes?
Actually, I heard it from Tim Minchin
I have no problem with natural remedies that have evidence behind them, like aspirin. I's much rather use medicines that actually work than the ones you describe which can probably be put down to the placebo effect.
And does it matter if it is the placebo effect, if the person feels the effect?
And does it matter if it is the placebo effect, if the person feels the effect?
Especially if, as I said earlier, placebos are now being scientifically proved to work better than drugs.
Think of the savings that could be made - no nasty side effects causing more illness, no massive wastage of unused drugs to say nothing of the huge cost of drugs themselves. The money could be spent on good, healthy food properly administered to all, more nursing staff so better care. Drugs would still be needed no doubt in certain cases but in nothing like the quantity they are prescribed now. Could be a revolution.
And does it matter if it is the placebo effect, if the person feels the effect?
Whilst I agree that it doesnt really matter whether it's homeopathy or the placebo effect that cures people paradoxically it matters a lot.
The way I understand the placebo effect is, someone is given a medicine for an illness they have, thinking it contains some magical potion that will make them better, only to discover after it made them better the pill was nothing more than sugar. I read recently (sorry no link but probably in the independant a few weeks ago) that cures as a result of placebos being given instead of bona fide medicine have doubled in the past 20 years.
In my opinion it's more important to find the mechanisms behind the placebo effect than to spend time and money on deciding whether homeopathy is genuine. Surely it is no more genuine than the sugar pill a person takes and then cures them. The real cure is lurking somewhere in another realm.:eek: Just dont call it homeopathy.
Whilst I agree that it doesnt really matter whether it's homeopathy or the placebo effect that cures people paradoxically it matters a lot.
The way I understand the placebo effect is, someone is given a medicine for an illness they have, thinking it contains some magical potion that will make them better, only to discover after it made them better the pill was nothing more than sugar. I read recently (sorry no link but probably in the independant a few weeks ago) that cures as a result of placebos being given instead of bona fide medicine have doubled in the past 20 years.
In my opinion it's more important to find the mechanisms behind the placebo effect than to spend time and money on deciding whether homeopathy is genuine. Surely it is no more genuine than the sugar pill a person takes and then cures them. The real cure is lurking somewhere in another realm.:eek: Just dont call it homeopathy.
I think that the reason a person feels better with homeopathy, rheiki and other forms of treatment is that they believe it will work, which is a positive thing. It is, in (ONLY) my opinion, being positive and believing it will work that actually makes it work.
I am allergic to touching certain chemicals, onions and garlic. But only when I am down does this allergy manifest. If I am stressed miserable, etc, I have weeping sores on my hands if I touch raw garlic. If I am not stressed, miserable, I can peel and finely chop heads of the stuff no problem. The mind and associated "mood" hormones work wonders.
It is, in (ONLY) my opinion, being positive and believing it will work that actually makes it work.
I agree and it's in that positivity that the placebo effect lurks.
redeyedtreefrog
17-Sep-09, 16:05
And does it matter if it is the placebo effect, if the person feels the effect?
Of course it matters. Nothing's actually happening, and the moment the person finds out its a placebo it stops working. The effect is purely psychological and does nothing about any illness. That's why it's used as a control in tests.
Of course it matters. Nothing's actually happening, and the moment the person finds out its a placebo it stops working. The effect is purely psychological and does nothing about any illness. That's why it's used as a control in tests.
It is not true that once people stop taking the placebo, or whatever it is that makes them feel that they are improving, that they will revert to having symptoms.
And also, since when is psychological effect nothing? The psychological effect in any treatment, traditional or not, is the most important factor that can influence how well a person recuperates. There are studies of the psychological effects on the immune system, that are being used treatment of HIV, for example.
redeyedtreefrog
17-Sep-09, 20:16
And also, since when is psychological effect nothing? The psychological effect in any treatment, traditional or not, is the most important factor that can influence how well a person recuperates. There are studies of the psychological effects on the immune system, that are being used treatment of HIV, for example.
I dont want to debate placebos, but...
Placebos are not cures, and create dishonesty between the doctor and the patient, which cant be good. I'm arguing against homeopathy, which is, plainly, a scam. If you like placebos so much, dont pay for homeopathy, get some sugar pills instead.
You equated homeopathy to "a placebo effect".
redeyedtreefrog
18-Sep-09, 16:22
You equated homeopathy to "a placebo effect".
Homeopathy/placebos have no physiological effects
Homeopathy/placebos have no physiological effects
I never said they did. I said they had psychological effects (if you believe in them) that influence the physiology of the body.
David Banks
18-Sep-09, 21:09
If you were in Canada, I'd suggest that you try a chiropractor (similar to/same as an osteopath ??) - even though I personally think they are not much better than witch doctors - yet many people, including members of my family, think they are wonderful for back problems !
redeyedtreefrog
18-Sep-09, 21:18
If you were in Canada, I'd suggest that you try a chiropractor (similar to/same as an osteopath ??) - even though I personally think they are not much better than witch doctors - yet many people, including members of my family, think they are wonderful for back problems !
Chiropractice (?) is good for backs, but not much else. Simon Singh has dome well with chiropractors.
David Banks
18-Sep-09, 21:35
Chiropractice (?) is good for backs, but not much else. Simon Singh has dome well with chiropractors.
I don't quite follow you. Didn't this string start on the subject of lower back pain ??
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