View Full Version : Funerals
highlander
28-Aug-09, 08:22
Was reading about Ted Kennedy funeral, how people were clapping and cheering when the hearse was going past. I personally find it disrespectful and felt like shouting at the tv when it showed folk clapping at the hearses when our brave men were taken back from afganistan, why are they clapping, is it just me or is this the new trend, this seems to have taken off when Princess Diana died, what are your thoughts? When i was a bairn i remember if someone died in the street you lived, everyones curtains was closed until the hearse left the street and people would stop on the bridge as the convoy of cars went past.
Highlander, I do not think this is disrespectful to our troops coming home in this manner from Afghanistan. It is a tribute to them and their lives, a way of showing how much we respect what they did. The Standard Bearers are there also showing the Military respect of lowering their standards.
Many funerals I have been to recently, have not been solemn occasions, but happy celebrations of the deceased life, I have heard laughter at some. When it comes to my own funeral I do not wish it to be a gnashing of teeth and a weeping occasion.
The meaning is clear, and it is not meant to show disrespect. I, personally, think it should be all black and sad etc, but I can understand why people would rather have funerals like Golach describes.
Clapping and cheering would be an acceptable way of marking the passing of Teddy Kennedy IMHO.
Clapping and cheering would be an acceptable way of marking the passing of Teddy Kennedy IMHO.
Not acceptable.[disgust]
kmahon2001
28-Aug-09, 10:43
Was reading about Ted Kennedy funeral, how people were clapping and cheering when the hearse was going past. I personally find it disrespectful and felt like shouting at the tv when it showed folk clapping at the hearses when our brave men were taken back from afganistan, why are they clapping, is it just me or is this the new trend, this seems to have taken off when Princess Diana died, what are your thoughts? When i was a bairn i remember if someone died in the street you lived, everyones curtains was closed until the hearse left the street and people would stop on the bridge as the convoy of cars went past.
Totally agree. People at such occasions used to stand quietly by and watch in silence as a mark of respect to the departed - no clapping and cheering. All this clapping makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable. To me, clapping makes it too much like a celebration. Yes we should all be grateful for the sacrifice these brave soldiers have made, but clapping seems to belittle that, IMHO.
I can understand the clapping at Ted Kennedy's funeral - the Americans have always done this, just like they applaud a film showing at the cinema (never did see the point if there's no live actors there to take a bow) but in this country we always treated such funeral processions with sombre respect and I personally feel that is the best way.
The person in your street was not a public person. Ted Kennedy, for all his sins and also good deeds, was a public person who had a public funeral. That is the way the public have a chance to express themselves and show their support for this person who died. You might say that the afganistan service men were not public either, but they died in the commission of a very publi (and disputed) war which is probably why people clapped to show their support.
Respect does not need to be expressed in a certain proscribed way. It just needs to be there.
Not acceptable.[disgust]
I think Scotsboy may be alluding to the incident where Kennedy legged it when he crashed his car into water and left a young woman to drown whilst not bothering to inform Police of the incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident
I am aware of the incident ,but still see NO reason for his comments about Ted Kennedy.
I also think the disrespectful comment may involve something else.
RIP Ted Kennedy last of a great dynasty goverened by a father who used the rod rather than spoil the kids and lived his ambition through his sons 2 who were assinated and one who messed up but lived to be a great senator who did mess up but sorted it eventually and proved himself like any kennedy
sassylass
29-Aug-09, 01:19
snip- the Americans have always done this snip
Where ever did you get that idea?
changilass
29-Aug-09, 01:29
If I saw a parade of army lads come home after a stint abroad I would clap them, so why should I not do the same for the unfortunate ones who come back in boxes. I would see it as a mark of thanks and respect.
I was always taught that a funeral should be a celebration of the deceased's life so for this reason I don't have a problem with clapping.
Aaldtimer
29-Aug-09, 03:05
I have only come across this in recent times and I'm not sure if it is a transatlantic influence, but my immediate thought is ...what's the point, they (the deceased) are not going to be hearing it. :confused
I have only come across this in recent times and I'm not sure if it is a transatlantic influence, but my immediate thought is ...what's the point, they (the deceased) are not going to be hearing it. :confused
By that logic why have a funeral at all? They wont be able to see us standing in silence in respect. Personally, my opinion is that the clapping is no different from standing in silence. Both are meant to show respect, so as long as the meaning is there, then that is fine by me. The man certainly deserved it.
Aaldtimer
29-Aug-09, 03:42
By that logic why have a funeral at all? They wont be able to see us standing in silence in respect. Personally, my opinion is that the clapping is no different from standing in silence. Both are meant to show respect, so as long as the meaning is there, then that is fine by me. The man certainly deserved it.
You're absolutely right Alan, the deceased can't see (or hear) anything, but having attended too many funerals I've always seen them as a mark of respect not only for the deceased, but also a mark of support and comfort for the bereaved.
I remember as a child on the streets of Dundee that whenever a funeral cortege passed people would stop, salute, bless themselves, bow their heads, whichever they thought an appropriate mark of respect.
Nobody ever applauded.
Mark of the times I suppose.
But I know which I find more appropriate!:confused
Hi, Highlander. I can understand your feelings being of a similar era. However, I think that it is a sign of thanks and respect for the effort and job that they (all mentioned) have done. It depends on the 'accent' of the clapping and cheering - there would be a distinct diifference if they were being disrespectful and applauding the death of Teddy or the soldiers.
It's a sign of the times right enough Aaldtimer. The first time I heard it was when Gearge Best died and I though on that occasion it was appropriate.
I Was uncomfortable with it when I saw the soldiers being applauded. Dont ask me why but I suspect it's related to my own vulnerabilities.
northener
29-Aug-09, 10:04
All Hail the warrior, for he died doing what most wouldn't......
How you mark their passing is immaterial, as long as it is marked with respect.
You're absolutely right Alan, the deceased can't see (or hear) anything, but having attended too many funerals I've always seen them as a mark of respect not only for the deceased, but also a mark of support and comfort for the bereaved.
I remember as a child on the streets of Dundee that whenever a funeral cortege passed people would stop, salute, bless themselves, bow their heads, whichever they thought an appropriate mark of respect.
Nobody ever applauded.
Mark of the times I suppose.
But I know which I find more appropriate!:confused
I also remember that time in Dundee,as a child..........stays in my memory forever.I agree with u also.
If there is anything that I've learned over my life and that is never criticise or judge anyone on how they mourn or react to the death of other people by your own standards. Everyone is an individual and nobody should be dictating to anyone on such a delicate manner.
kmahon2001
29-Aug-09, 12:40
Based on this new trend and how many people here seem to be quite happy with applause at a funeral procession, maybe on Remembrance Day we should have a 2 minute round of applause instead of a 2 minute silence. ;)
Many funerals I have been to recently, have not been solemn occasions, but happy celebrations of the deceased life, I have heard laughter at some. When it comes to my own funeral I do not wish it to be a gnashing of teeth and a weeping occasion.
Respect does not need to be expressed in a certain proscribed way. It just needs to be there.
All Hail the warrior, for he died doing what most wouldn't......
How you mark their passing is immaterial, as long as it is marked with respect.
If there is anything that I've learned over my life and that is never criticise or judge anyone on how they mourn or react to the death of other people by your own standards. Everyone is an individual and nobody should be dictating to anyone on such a delicate manner.
I was always taught that a funeral should be a celebration of the deceased's life so for this reason I don't have a problem with clapping.
Thank you all for expressing your thoughts in such a compassionate fashion. I agree with you all.
northener
29-Aug-09, 17:07
Based on this new trend and how many people here seem to be quite happy with applause at a funeral procession, maybe on Remembrance Day we should have a 2 minute round of applause instead of a 2 minute silence. ;)
That's a different scenario though, KMahon.
Rememberance Day parades are a very formalised event, following set-down procedures and recognised acknowledgements. It would be extremely bad form to step outside of the agreed structure in any way.
Hoewever, if the crowds were to applaud the troops taking part in a Rememberance Day parade, would this really be a problem? I don't think so.
The applause is appreciation and respect for the individual -whether they are marching past or being carried past. The silence and prayers are for all those involved. Regardless of what conflict or where in the world they may lay.
That's the difference.
I am aware of the incident ,but still see NO reason for his comments about Ted Kennedy.
I also think the disrespectful comment may involve something else.
Maybe it was just aimed at that unfortunate incident? Or maybe it was because Ted kennedy was an IRA sympathiser who helped fund the killing of many of OUR soldiers and Citizens?
Anyways back to the applause thing, My opinion is that the funeral should be whichever the deceased would've wanted. If they wanted a celebration and happy memories then thats what they should have, if they would rather a solemn quiet passing then that is to be respected too. After all its your last journey and a last chance for people to say "Goodbye" so it should be done how they want.
Maybe it was just aimed at that unfortunate incident? Or maybe it was because Ted kennedy was an IRA sympathiser who helped fund the killing of many of OUR soldiers and Citizens?
Anyways back to the applause thing, My opinion is that the funeral should be whichever the deceased would've wanted. If they wanted a celebration and happy memories then thats what they should have, if they would rather a solemn quiet passing then that is to be respected too. After all its your last journey and a last chance for people to say "Goodbye" so it should be done how they want.
As I remember...there were killings on BOTH sides.................undeserved by the innocents on BOTH sides.
As I remember...there were killings on BOTH sides.................undeserved by the innocents on BOTH sides.
Do you sympathise with the IRA as well ?
I watched Ted Kennedys funeral this aft noon on fox news live what a eulogy but above all of that he was a family man loved by all his siblings very much loved and always fought for the underprivilged please let his health service bill for all Americans pass through congress be a great tribute to him
I watched Ted Kennedys funeral this aft noon on fox news live what a eulogy but above all of that he was a family man loved by all his siblings very much loved and always fought for the underprivilged please let his health service bill for all Americans pass through congress be a great tribute to him
Have to agree with u,Anne.............great man,great family.May he rest in peace.
Or maybe it was because Ted kennedy was an IRA sympathiser who helped fund the killing of many of OUR soldiers and Citizens?
Gosh, I'd forgotten his attitude towards the IRA was at best ambiguous, the years since 9/11 have dimmed my memory. The world has changed since that day in ways the 9/11 hijackers would never have anticipated.
oldmarine
30-Aug-09, 06:04
Was reading about Ted Kennedy funeral, how people were clapping and cheering when the hearse was going past. I personally find it disrespectful and felt like shouting at the tv when it showed folk clapping at the hearses when our brave men were taken back from afganistan, why are they clapping, is it just me or is this the new trend, this seems to have taken off when Princess Diana died, what are your thoughts? When i was a bairn i remember if someone died in the street you lived, everyones curtains was closed until the hearse left the street and people would stop on the bridge as the convoy of cars went past.
It's a change of the time we live in. It used to be considered disrespectful during my youth to do those type of things. But oh how times have changed. Now, it's anything can go and disrespect is a forgotten thing. I am having difficulty in keeping up with the changing times. I guess I am getting too old at 84 years of age.
It's good to keep up with the changes and sometimes change ourselves. So much of how we are is down to societys indoctrination of what we should be rather than what we really are.
Based on this new trend and how many people here seem to be quite happy with applause at a funeral procession, maybe on Remembrance Day we should have a 2 minute round of applause instead of a 2 minute silence. ;)
Remembrance Day is not a funeral but gives the opportunity for both silence and applause. There is the service with the 2 minute silence which is always respectfully observed for those who want to remember the dead. Once the service has ended those who survived and those currently serving march to Horse Guards Parade and are applauded all the way.
I have no problem with applause at a funeral procession - in fact I rather like it as it's the normal expression of appreciation. Not likely to happen to me but I would love it for my family if that's how people felt. Funerals might be easier occasions if they were celebrations of life rather than mourning death.
northener
30-Aug-09, 12:39
There'll be lots of clapping and cheering when I snuff it..........
Have to agree with u,Anne.............great man,great family.May he rest in peace.
I suppose it depends on what you class as “great”. Ted Kennedy was a serial adulterer, a drunk, a murderer and someone who used “his family” to his advantage. Politically he was an incredible lightweight, and his oratory skills ranged from somewhere short of mediocre to embarrassingly dire.
Those who wish to indulge in sycophantic delusions are more than welcome, it does not change the facts.
I suppose it depends on what you class as “great”. Ted Kennedy was a serial adulterer, a drunk, a murderer and someone who used “his family” to his advantage. Politically he was an incredible lightweight, and his oratory skills ranged from somewhere short of mediocre to embarrassingly dire.
Those who wish to indulge in sycophantic delusions are more than welcome, it does not change the facts.Good grief, I thought the young whippersnapper had problems distinguishing his opinions from well-established facts...............
Could you enlighten us, especially on the murderer front?
Good grief, I thought the young whippersnapper had problems distinguishing his opinions from well-established facts...............
Could you enlighten us, especially on the murderer front?
What would you call someone who knowingly left a passenger in their car to die while they went home to sober up?..............and then tried to blame it on someone else?
What would you call someone who knowingly left a passenger in their car to die while they went home to sober up?..............and then tried to blame it on someone else?I'd call it your opinion. :)
You never answered the question Crayola.
Oh yes I did!
I'll leave you or someone else to shoot your straw man.
I suppose it depends on what you class as “great”. Ted Kennedy was a serial adulterer, a drunk, a murderer and someone who used “his family” to his advantage.
He made mistakes, like everybody does, but "murder" was not one of them. According to Sky News more than 300 bills he created became part of law. For all his mistakes he did a lot more good.
Politically he was an incredible lightweight, and his oratory skills ranged from somewhere short of mediocre to embarrassingly dire.
Odd, how you say that yet all the news networks say he was an excellent orator. Who to trust...?
Those who wish to indulge in sycophantic delusions are more than welcome
Oh the irony...
it does not change the facts.
It does not. You should try reading them some time.
My word, you are incredibly self-righteous Alan16. Every single opinion given by people on here garners a cocky or arrogant reply from you, each individual quote is scrutinised. I suppose us mere mortals must bow down to the feet of the 17-year-old who knows so much more about the world than the rest of us...
My word, you are incredibly self-righteous Alan16. Every single opinion given by people on here garners a cocky or arrogant reply from you, each individual quote is scrutinised. I suppose us mere mortals must bow down to the feet of the 17-year-old who knows so much more about the world than the rest of us...
You sure you can't find any other threads that I've posted on, to make some statement about my age?
Every opinion that people on here give that I disagree with, I will pick apart and explain why I disagree with it. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, then you really shouldn't post on here.
Bow if you want. I'll be able to live with it.
He made mistakes, like everybody does, but "murder" was not one of them. According to Sky News more than 300 bills he created became part of law. For all his mistakes he did a lot more good.
Odd, how you say that yet all the news networks say he was an excellent orator. Who to trust...?
Oh the irony...
It does not. You should try reading them some time.
Yes, everyone makes mistake Alan, but a "great" person would not use their name and position to worm out of them. I actually call leaving the scene of an accident (whilst under the influence) resulting in the death of a young woman, and trying to blame it on someone else - more than a mistake.
I would be interested to see ANY link or reference you have that states that Ted Kennedy was a good orator he was dire. Trust who you like - have you heard any of his speeches? If so feel free to tell me which one inpressed you so much.
Actualy not sure if you realise that you have used a double negative in your last part.........but I'll put that down to youth and inexperience.
I would be interested to see ANY link or reference you have that states that Ted Kennedy was a good orator he was dire. Trust who you like - have you heard any of his speeches? If so feel free to tell me which one inpressed you so much.
I have heard many of his speeches. If you've heard his 1980 DNC speech, you would not be saying the rubbish you are now. Watch, and tell me he is not a great orator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPB1aJ2RPt8
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/opinion/x1349325707/Costa-Recalling-Kennedy-as-a-great-orator This link is to an article written by a man who was actually there. Have a look at some of the links here: http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&source=hp&q=ted%20kennedy%20orator&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn I'll trust these people rather than some guy on caithness.org if you don't mind.
Actualy not sure if you realise that you have used a double negative in your last part.........but I'll put that down to youth and inexperience.
My last part was fine. Double negatives are an accepted part of the English language by the way.
I have heard many of his speeches. If you've heard his 1980 DNC speech, you would not be saying the rubbish you are now. Watch, and tell me he is not a great orator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPB1aJ2RPt8
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/opinion/x1349325707/Costa-Recalling-Kennedy-as-a-great-orator This link is to an article written by a man who was actually there. Have a look at some of the links here: http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&source=hp&q=ted%20kennedy%20orator&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn I'll trust these people rather than some guy on caithness.org if you don't mind.
My last part was fine. Double negatives are an accepted part of the English language by the way.
I have heard him speak on many occassions, you can search youtube and find some if you care. I am familair with much of his "style".......the dream lives on (sic). I am not asking you to trust me, or even agree with me Alan.
Actaully just read an article by Christopher Hitchins which references the speech you admire so much, just goes to show that different people see things different ways:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/26/edward-kennedy-death-christopher-hitchens-on-why-teddy-s-closing-years-were-his-best-115875-21624931/
And if you read your double negative you will see that it alludes to you agreeing with me.......which you don't;)
There'll be lots of clapping and cheering when I snuff it..........
From Mrs N? :eek:
Actaully just read an article by Christopher Hitchins which references the speech you admire so much, just goes to show that different people see things different ways:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/26/edward-kennedy-death-christopher-hitchens-on-why-teddy-s-closing-years-were-his-best-115875-21624931/
Christopher Hitchins is an intelligent man who I always have time for, although I do not agree with everything he says. Those are his opinions on Ted Kennedys' oratory abilities, but he does seem to be in the minority in that area. None the less, the whole thing is subjective, and we are clearly at polar opposites on the scale.
And if you read your double negative you will see that it alludes to you agreeing with me.......which you don't;)
Ah, right. I understand what you are saying now. What you need to do, though, is read it carefully. You said: "it does not change the facts" and I said "It does not". I was agreeing with the statement not the sentiment. Hence why I said "You should try reading them some time." So in essence I was saying: "You are right, it does not change the facts. However your reading of the facts is incorrect." So, you'll find, there was no mistake there. ;):D
oldmarine
30-Aug-09, 19:00
What would you call someone who knowingly left a passenger in their car to die while they went home to sober up?..............and then tried to blame it on someone else?
I believe I read that about Teddy Kennedy and Mary Jo Kepechnik when he left her in his car after he drove it into a river and then went home. Did I read incorrectly on this?
My word, you are incredibly self-righteous Alan16. Every single opinion given by people on here garners a cocky or arrogant reply from you, each individual quote is scrutinised.
And we're lovin' it. :D
northener
30-Aug-09, 21:39
From Mrs N? :eek:
Oh yes indeedy.
I think I'd rather stick rusty pins in my eyeballs than bow down to someone so self-involved, try and find a specialist who can remove your head from your backside.
I think I'd rather stick rusty pins in my eyeballs than bow down to someone so self-involved
Hey, you started this bowing malarkey, not me.
try and find a specialist who can remove your head from your backside.
We might not have a maternity department for much longer, so I'm not sure they'll be able to afford a Head-removed-from-butt-ologist... :D
In my eyes Ted Kennedy was a master debator!!!!.
He was a leech who played on his family name, anyone who leaves a woman to die in their car just to save your own skin is lower than low.
The world is a better place without him.
randomuser2349
12-Jun-10, 22:37
It's been happening way before Princess Diana's funeral.
In 1968, at Martin Luther King's funeral, the majority didn't clap at the motorcade but some clapped at Robert Kennedy in the crowd.
In 1987, a French Canadian separatist died and when the coffin was carried out, the crowd clapped and sung simultaneously. Again in 2000 at a former prime minister's funeral in Montreal, but it was very sparse and scattered. In 2009, a boxer was carried out of a Montreal church and the crowd burst into cheers. Seems to be a French-Canadian custom. In the English parts of Canada, you'd probably get a nasty stare.
Koreans clap at the big screen televising the funeral, but the cortège is always silent or involves people crying out loudly.
As for America, it doesn't happen in most cases. They never clap when the hearses of fallen soldiers come past. They simply stand. In one case a hate group cheered and got fined, big time. Edward Kennedy was probably a request of some sort, or it was started by the excitement of seeing Michael Jackson's coffin at memorial service a month earlier.
If you ask me, I don't find it disrespectful to the deceased, but to the surviving family and the event (unless it was requested or don't mind it). Nevertheless I find it to be incredibly tacky and inappropriate, for the deceased can no longer hear you do anything. You wouldn't do it at a funeral for someone close to you, and people need to bear in mind that they're (or they were) all humans and not superior to you in any way. If I was a soldier I wouldn't want that at my procession.
Just my 2 cents worth on it.
[smirk][smirk][smirk]
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