View Full Version : Gaelic Expenditure
What percentage of the Scotlands budget should be allocated to Gaelic development ?
As a native Caithnessian, a Gaelic speaker and a tax payer, I am curious as to what orgers mean when they declare that they are not against Gaelic, but whenever it is discussed on a thread, it is frequently in a negative way and accompanied with an objection to money being spent in a specific area, whether local to Caithness or in other areas outside the county.
Rather than waiting for a thread to come up on a specific issue any issue to come up and declare it inappropriate expenditure - now you can declare - free of any other distraction if there is any amount of public money that you would accept as fair and proportionate.
2% of the national population understand the language and 10.5% of the Population in the Highland Council area. 7% Families in the Highland Council Area have chosen to enrole their children in Gaelic Medium Schools.
Should any public recognition / development be given in Scotland to the Gaelic language and its culture ? if so how much ?
I know what the actual budget figures are and will share them with you - later on.
Even Chance
24-Aug-09, 16:11
Expenditure in Scotland is not the issue here.
Expenditure in CAITHNESS is the relevant issue IMHO.
cuddlepop
24-Aug-09, 17:29
The problem is every council decides how they are going to spend their budget so regardless of what Caithness folk want HC decided.
Until we go back to Regional Councils we will continue to be "influenced" as to what Inverness want.:(
None. It is a pointless language, and up hear has no cultural relevance. Norse is, I imagine, the initial language of Caithness.
I have written to HC to steamroller over the wishes of the Caithnessian councillors on bilingual signs, let battle commence.:lol:
If HC doesn't get its way then it is a toothless lame duck council.
Aaldtimer
24-Aug-09, 19:14
None. It is a pointless language, and up hear has no cultural relevance. Norse is, I imagine, the initial language of Caithness.
Really Alan? I suppose, up here, the Picts would have been telepaths then? :eek:
Please remember the poll is not intended to specific to a particular issue or geographic location within Scotland.
I'm keen to see where people stand in principal - on the issue of the langauge and its culture itself.
Is cultural diversity something of value - morally, spiritually, financially ?
Really Alan? I suppose, up here, the Picts would have been telepaths then? :eek:
Yes, yes they were. Either way, Gaelic is a complete waste of money - it is to all intents and purposes a dead language, and there is no point in resurrecting it.
Aaldtimer
24-Aug-09, 19:25
Yes, yes they were. Either way, Gaelic is a complete waste of money - it is to all intents and purposes a dead language, and there is no point in resurrecting it.
Once again you're completely wrong. Try telling that to all the people who use it the course of their normal existance in the west coast and islands. :roll:
None. It is a pointless language, and up hear has no cultural relevance. Norse is, I imagine, the initial language of Caithness.
Strange, as the Norsemen did not appear in the North of Scotland until the latter half of the eighth century, I wonder what language the Picts spoke at that time? Could it have been Gaelic?
But know doubt Alan16. you will direct me to some obscure web site telling me of how the Picts spoke fluent Norse.
What I find most amusing about this, is that I would bet a lot of money that none of you on your high horses can speak more than a phrase or two in Gaelic. There will be more people in Wick who know Polish or Chinese, so why don't we waste money getting those on the road signs as well?
What I find most amusing about this, is that I would bet a lot of money that none of you on your high horses can speak more than a phrase or two in Gaelic. There will be more people in Wick who know Polish or Chinese, so why don't we waste money getting those on the road signs as well?
Tha an MOD Gallaibh 2010 is coming to Caithness in 2010, I see no mention of any Chinese or Polish music festivals being announced for Caithness :(
We have Orgers who are Mod gold medal winners.
Tha an MOD Gallaibh 2010 is coming to Caithness in 2010, I see no mention of any Chinese or Polish music festivals being announced for Caithness :(
Perhaps there should be. There will be more speakers of Polish probably.
A festival of Polish Music and Culture has been organised in the Highlands before - and you may be suprised to know that it was the Gaelic Community that organised it - back at Christmas 2007 and packed out Eden Court Theatre
It was an amazing concert - the polish music was extraordinary.
"Fàilte / Witamy / Welcome is a Gaelic and Polish concert hosted by the award winning, nationally regarded Inverness Gaelic Choir (adult) and groups from the Gaelic community in Inverness - with very special guests The Warsaw Village Band from Poland. This concert extends a Gaelic welcome to our Polish community – embracing the individuality of each culture, whilst celebrating the common language of music."
Cultural diversity lifts and inspires the spirit - particularly important on long dark witer nights.
Its a highland tradition that grew out of necessity - Better to welcome others and share stories and music - than shut them out and both be miserable.
Really Alan? I suppose, up here, the Picts would have been telepaths then? :eek:
Well I'm 62 and I was born in the Glebe. It seems my time on earth and the culture and identity that have permeated my very soul mean absolutely nothing. My Caithness identity means nothing any more.The Picts get priority over the living. It's a bliddy joke. It reminds me of the battle for the Holy land. God gave the Jews the Holy land 4000 years ago and that's that. Another bliddy joke but not so funny.
On your bikes chaps.I'm alive now and this is my county and we speak English here. Gaelic is more than welcome but know your place fellows when you visit someone elses homeland.
Gaelic is dead in Caithess and has been for centuries and should only be kept alive by the enthusiasm of Gaelic speakers like each. More needy organisations than the Gaelic language appreciation society have to rely on charity shops and coffee mornings and voluntary contributions from a willing public. Let Gaelic join that queue in Caithness.
That being said there are Gaelic communities in other parts of Scotland that need to be supported by public money but for the Gael whose first language was English let them roll their sleeves up and use encouragement rather than demands that people learn their language.
I'm fed up with hearing the nonsense that Caithness is against Gaelic or as each politely implies negative toward Gaelic. Gaelic is a wonderful language but you are forcing it on my English speaking homeland. Do you think I should be happy about that?
Are you a native Gaelic speaker Each?
Ooh, that's a clever poll Each. I wonder how many of the one-percenters worked out how much money 1% of the budget is. I wonder if they'll change their minds when they realise they'll be spending a good fraction of a billion pounds per annum on Gaelic! :eek:
Even 0.01% would be way too much for me. Does that mean I have to vote for zilch?
tonkatojo
25-Aug-09, 08:21
Strange, as the Norsemen did not appear in the North of Scotland until the latter half of the eighth century, I wonder what language the Picts spoke at that time? Could it have been Gaelic?
But know doubt Alan16. you will direct me to some obscure web site telling me of how the Picts spoke fluent Norse.
I suppose if we go far enough back in time we all communicated in grunts and sign language. But on this mornings news it was reported primary schools in Portree and Fort William are to be taught Gaelic, is that with or without choice I wonder.
weeboyagee
25-Aug-09, 09:00
None. It is a pointless language, and up hear has no cultural relevance. Norse is, I imagine, the initial language of Caithness.
What absolute garbage. Check your history before you splutter. The initial language of Caithness is unknown.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
25-Aug-09, 09:01
I have written to HC to steamroller over the wishes of the Caithnessian councillors on bilingual signs, let battle commence.:lol:
If HC doesn't get its way then it is a toothless lame duck council.
Very nearly split my sides laughing after reading this one. I said it before, I say it again, spoon award goes to Rheggers when he wants to get things started!
WBG :cool:
The initial language of Caithness is unknown.
Indeed. Even the current language is unknown in some parts. :lol:
northener
25-Aug-09, 09:04
Ooh, that's a clever poll Each. I wonder how many of the one-percenters worked out how much money 1% of the budget is. I wonder if they'll change their minds when they realise they'll be spending a good fraction of a billion pounds per annum on Gaelic! :eek:
Even 0.01% would be way too much for me. Does that mean I have to vote for zilch?
Hit nail on head there. The options are too vague, Each. Sorry.
I can see where you're coming from and it's a good idea for a poll, unfortunately it's a bit too wide and vague for my liking.
So I aint voting.
weeboyagee
25-Aug-09, 09:06
Yes, yes they were. Either way, Gaelic is a complete waste of money - it is to all intents and purposes a dead language, and there is no point in resurrecting it.
Gaelic, to all intents and purposes is very much alive. Outwith the county of Caithness there are others who would take great issue with your statement - and if you are indeed 16 (my apologies if I'm wrong) there are plenty your own age now in Scotland who would take issue with you in a language that you would fail to understand. Your subjection would be your embarassment.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
25-Aug-09, 09:10
What I find most amusing about this, is that I would bet a lot of money that none of you on your high horses can speak more than a phrase or two in Gaelic. There will be more people in Wick who know Polish or Chinese, so why don't we waste money getting those on the road signs as well?
Your sound-bytes are pathetic. You read and listen to other people too much. Have a go at researching yourself and reasonably consider the evidence. I am not on my high horse, I have no need to be, the facts speak for themselves. I speak Gaelic, live in Caithness and could name a good number of folks who are Gaelic speakers living in the county that I know, never mind about the number I don't know. Your ignorance is showing more and more as you continue in this debate. Either contribute at a level that's worthy of consideration or bale out.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
25-Aug-09, 09:13
A festival of Polish Music and Culture has been organised in the Highlands before - and you may be suprised to know that it was the Gaelic Community that organised it - back at Christmas 2007 and packed out Eden Court Theatre
It was an amazing concert - the polish music was extraordinary.
"Fàilte / Witamy / Welcome is a Gaelic and Polish concert hosted by the award winning, nationally regarded Inverness Gaelic Choir (adult) and groups from the Gaelic community in Inverness - with very special guests The Warsaw Village Band from Poland. This concert extends a Gaelic welcome to our Polish community – embracing the individuality of each culture, whilst celebrating the common language of music."
Cultural diversity lifts and inspires the spirit - particularly important on long dark witer nights.
Its a highland tradition that grew out of necessity - Better to welcome others and share stories and music - than shut them out and both be miserable.
Clap, clap, clap, clap...........applause.
You said it before I did. The fact that the Gaels seem to know how to embrace culture may give a clue as to whom we should take lessons from if we wish to show that we can do likewise.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
25-Aug-09, 09:17
I suppose if we go far enough back in time we all communicated in grunts and sign language. But on this mornings news it was reported primary schools in Portree and Fort William are to be taught Gaelic, is that with or without choice I wonder.
Hugely as part of local demand. The people want it and they are getting it. £1.5m contribution is being looked at. A small point of correction - these schools won't be taught Gaelic, they will be Gaelic medium - all subjects taught throught the medium of Gaelic, no English.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
25-Aug-09, 09:24
Gleebers post is the one I admire most on here at the moment. Whilst folks from Caithness cherish what they see as Caithness culture there is a lot that is picking away at it - from ALL angles. Dounreay boom last century, greater integration with Europe etc, even Gaelic fighting for it's slice of the cultural cake. To strike a balance of accommodation at the right level is essential although very much not without difficulty.
HC are not what I would consider the best advocates of getting the balance right with the majority of their departmental tasks never mind Gaelic but then whatever balance they would seek will have someones nose, somewhere, out of joint.
WBG :cool:
tonkatojo
25-Aug-09, 10:02
Hugely as part of local demand. The people want it and they are getting it. £1.5m contribution is being looked at. A small point of correction - these schools won't be taught Gaelic, they will be Gaelic medium - all subjects taught throught the medium of Gaelic, no English.
WBG :cool:
Forgive my ignorance I quote "they will be Gaelic medium-all subjects taught through the medium of Gaelic, no English."
what does that mean ? :(
Gaelic medium is exactly that
All subjects taught in the school will be taught through the Gaelic Language not through English - (except english as a seperate subject itself)
tonkatojo
25-Aug-09, 13:31
Gaelic medium is exactly that
All subjects taught in the school will be taught through the Gaelic Language not through English - (except english as a seperate subject itself)
The word "medium" is confusing me as the dictionary does not use it in any context you do.
I always understood medium to have a meaning of "a method/form of communication"
Artists work in a pariticular medium - to commuicate.
We have "the media" for a number of different mediums used by the press to commuicate (scuse the bad grammer !)
tonkatojo
25-Aug-09, 13:50
I always understood medium to have a meaning of "a method/form of communication"
Artists work in a pariticular medium - to commuicate.
We have "the media" for a number of different mediums used by the press to commuicate (scuse the bad grammer !)
Perhaps your right, I just googled the word medium.
Gaelic, to all intents and purposes is very much alive.
Let's look at some figures, rather than just making sweeping statements:
Year Scottish population - Speakers of Gaelic only - Speakers of Gaelic and English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) - Speakers of Gaelic and English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) as % of population
1755 1,265,380 289,798 N/A N/A (22.9 monoglot Gaelic)
1800 1,608,420 297,823 N/A N/A (18.5 monoglot Gaelic)
1881 3,735,573 231,594 N/A N/A (6.1 monoglot Gaelic)
1891 4,025,647 43,738 210,677 5.2
1901 4,472,103 28,106 202,700 4.5
1911 4,760,904 18,400 183,998 3.9
1921 4,573,471 9,829 148,950 3.3
1931 4,588,909 6,716 129,419 2.8
1951 5,096,415 2,178 93,269 1.8
1961 5,179,344 974 80,004 1.5
1971 5,228,965 477 88,415 1.7
1981 5,035,315 N/A 82,620 1.6
1991 5,083,000 N/A 65,978 1.4
2001 5,062,011 N/A 58,652 1.2
So basically nobody uses Gaelic only. And around 1% speak Gaelic and English. And apart from the 1971 anomaly it is constantly decreasing. Gaelic may not be dead, but it's losing blood fast.
Outwith the county of Caithness there are others who would take great issue with your statement
Probably in English...
and if you are indeed 16 (my apologies if I'm wrong)
17, 16 is the house number...
there are plenty your own age now in Scotland who would take issue with you in a language that you would fail to understand. Your subjection would be your embarassment.
I'd not be embarrassed, I'd just tell them to get a grip and speak in English, the primary language of both of us. And of course I'd need to be in western Scotland seeing as basically nobody in Caithness has very little Gaelic speakers. (See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/ScotlandGaelicSpeakers2001.gif...)
Your sound-bytes are pathetic. You read and listen to other people too much.
Because all your thoughts are original and have never been thought before...
Have a go at researching yourself and reasonably consider the evidence.
I wouldn't think there is all that much information about me available... Jokes aside, I spot a fallacy. Simply because I've said something which someone else has said before, does not make it wrong. And it isn't. The evidence is that there are around 50-55 thousand Gaelic/English speakers in Scotland: that is the same as the number of Poles in Scotland, and many of them will know less English than the Gaelic/English speakers.
I am not on my high horse, I have no need to be, the facts speak for themselves.
Yes they do, and not in Gaelic.
I speak Gaelic, live in Caithness and could name a good number of folks who are Gaelic speakers living in the county that I know, never mind about the number I don't know.
So all these millions of people didn't bother with censuses did they?
Your ignorance is showing more and more as you continue in this debate.
Don't be ridiculous. I at least went to the trouble of looking for the figures. You just guessed.
Either contribute at a level that's worthy of consideration or bale out.
Either contribute at a level that's worthy of consideration or bail out.
Gleebers post is the one I admire most on here at the moment. Whilst folks from Caithness cherish what they see as Caithness culture there is a lot that is picking away at it - from ALL angles. Dounreay boom last century, greater integration with Europe etc, even Gaelic fighting for it's slice of the cultural cake. To strike a balance of accommodation at the right level is essential although very much not without difficulty.
HC are not what I would consider the best advocates of getting the balance right with the majority of their departmental tasks never mind Gaelic but then whatever balance they would seek will have someones nose, somewhere, out of joint.
WBG :cool:
Thanks WBg. I appreciate your respect for my opinion. Until now i wasnt sure whether my opinion was anything more than a deeply held prejudice against a community who are without doubt a credit to Scotland or alternatively a kind of entertainment of a night in front of the computer. Maybe a bit of both are at work for me but Ive discovered a third option. That is A deeply held conviction that the Gaelic bill is wrong and was created as a by product of the newly created Scottish parliament as a stamping of the Scottish identity on the psyche of Scotland and the cheque books of the world. :(
What newly elected members of the Scottish parliament didnt take into consideration, nor I would suggest would many of them be aware of its prescence, was the depth and evolutionary timespan of the Scottish psyche. Language, and in particular the remnants of the traditional language of Scotland play only a minor part in that evolutionary progress which is evident by it's decline but the Gaelic bill has given it an equal status. This has kindled a deep and meaningful and I would suggest resentful resurection of the Scottish identity but an identity that now speaks English as it's first language and struggles to co-habit with a newly created culture and language for the benefit of the vanity of our kilted ambassadors and the powers bestowed by its leaders for its consruction.
I dont know where this road leads but I suspect unless someone cleverer than me takes exception to this modern invasion of Scotland by a fantasy inducing leadership, then the chips are down for my English speaking homeland.
So far Each hasnt answered my question as to whether he is a native Gaelic speaker. Are you a native Gaelic speaker WBG?
So far Each hasnt answered my question as to whether he is a native Gaelic speaker.
I'm not sure whether I'm included in that, but in case it isn't obvious enough, I am not. I can say "Hello", but I'd forget that if I could, so it doesn't really matter.
Clap, clap, clap, clap...........applause.
You said it before I did. The fact that the Gaels seem to know how to embrace culture may give a clue as to whom we should take lessons from if we wish to show that we can do likewise.
WBG :cool:
To be honest WBG you sound like a seal clapping it's flappers after it's balanced a beach ball on the end of it's nose. :lol:
Music is a universal communicator and not an exclusivitivity of the Gaelic culture you so admirably represent.
So far Each hasnt answered my question as to whether he is a native Gaelic speaker. Are you a native Gaelic speaker WBG?
The question isn't relevant - the poll is whether people consider gaelic of value and whether they consider public support/expenditure is justifiable and what amount they consider to be reasonable.
It is intended to be free of personalities, geography, or any other issue such as road safety, etc.
Its a valid position to hold where you might vote in favour of expenditure on Gaelic in principle while having seperate reservations about a particular issue, etc where the gaelic expenditure is being currently prioritised.
By some historical accident some may have Gaelic as a first language, others may come to the language, others may learn both simoultaneously others may support the language but have no intention of ever learning it. There are many instances where gaelic has skipped a generation - where parents dont speak it but grandchildren do. (perhaps the grand parent feel guilty for not passing it on to their own kids so are making more of an effort for their grand kids) This is particularly relevant today where there has been a rapid decline over a short period for this very reason - because many of my grand parents generation were shamed / pressurised into not passing on the language. Now in hindsight, they deeply regret that decision.
The implication of your question is that there is only one ideal Gaelic specimen - unless someone can demonstrate a continuous and unbroken line of gaelic speakers back though umpteen generation, somehow neither they nor their point of view is valid.
This is demeaning to the many people support the language.
I think you said yourself that this is not an issue about history. (Well its not about me or my history, thats for sure). Its about people who speak the language, or want to speak and even those that dont want to speak the language - today - however they got to where they are now.
I will welcome any one who supports Gaelic, whatever their background.
The question isn't relevant
Lots of Blah, Blah, Blah.....
I will welcome any one who supports Gaelic, whatever their background.
Should we take that as a 'no'?
The question isn't relevant...
That's lucky, isn't it?
Anyone who wants to learn Gaelic should be encouraged to do so, but I strongly object to the way it is being forced into everything by the Scottish Government. We are more in need of roads, schools, enough teachers etc and in the NHS we need more doctors, nurses, essential drugs and other treatments. When all that that has been dealt with, then spend money on the promotion of Gaelic but at the moment it is not essential.[disgust]
Should we take that as a 'no'?
You shouldn't infer it either as a yes or a no.
The question isnt relevant and I have tried my best to explain;
why I think it isn't relevant.
why any answer given to the question would immediately demean/devalue the contribution that many supporters of the language have made and exclude them from participating in the debate and having their points of view properly considered.
For that reason I wont be answering the question.
The poll is intended to be open and neutral - its not about me or other peoples opinions of me.
You shouldn't infer it either as a yes or a no.
The question isnt relevant and I have tried my best to explain;
why I think it isn't relevant.
why any answer given to the question would immediately demean/devalue the contribution that many supporters of the language have made and exclude them from participating in the debate and having their points of view properly considered.
For that reason I wont be answering the question.
The poll is intended to be open and neutral - its not about me or other peoples opinions of me.
Ok, that is now a definite no.
I voted zero money but only because I think as a country we should decide where our roots really belong.
You shouldn't infer it either as a yes or a no.
The question isnt relevant and I have tried my best to explain;
why I think it isn't relevant.
why any answer given to the question would immediately demean/devalue the contribution that many supporters of the language have made and exclude them from participating in the debate and having their points of view properly considered.
For that reason I wont be answering the question.
The poll is intended to be open and neutral - its not about me or other peoples opinions of me.
So it is a 'no' then?
Anyone who wants to learn Gaelic should be encouraged to do so, but I strongly object to the way it is being forced into everything by the Scottish Government. We are more in need of roads, schools, enough teachers etc and in the NHS we need more doctors, nurses, essential drugs and other treatments. When all that that has been dealt with, then spend money on the promotion of Gaelic but at the moment it is not essential.[disgust]
The gaelic budget is quite a bit less than Scottish Government pays out annually to the National Performing Arts Companies - Scottish Opera, The National Orchestra, Chamber Orchestra and National theatre.
I have never been to any of their perfomances, neother has anyone in my immediate family - I dant anticipate I ever will - but you never know.
Nevertheless - I am glad that they exist and that they are supported by the government. An that there is always the possibility that I could see them one day.
Spiritually & emotionally - Scotland would be a poorer bleaker place without them.
The implication in your argument is that their funding is also "non-essential" and should be cut to pay for other services.
kmahon2001
26-Aug-09, 00:09
I'm not a Gaelic speaker and in fact I'm not even Scots (I'm English by birth, of mixed English, Irish, Scots and Welsh blood) so I'm not sure that I'm fully qualified to have an opinion on whether trying to preserve and revive the Gaelic language is a good thing or not.
For what it's worth, however, I do have an opinion. I disagree with the way that the Highland Council and the Scottish Nationalists are trying to railroad the majority population here with a minority language, particularly in areas where the language is not even appropriate, based on past history. I think these people are handling the whole thing very badly. Trying to force the issue down everyone's throats is bound to cause resentment and difficulties, and diverting money from important mainstream issues to pay for the promotion of Gaelic is quite simply wrong.
Having said all that, at a time where the Westminster Government injects masses of cash into promoting multi-cultural Britain, and local authorities throughout the UK spend loads of money on setting up facilities for the various different immigrant communities and translating information into dozens of different languages, surely we cannot begrudge money being injected into the promotion of the Gaelic culture, which after all is actually native to this country and which certainly shouldn't be considered any less significant or important than any of the other minority cultures in Britain today.
I do not object to the promotion of Gaelic, simply the heavy handed way in which it is being carried out by the minority who now find themselves in positions of power. The Gaelic language and culture should definitely not be lost, it should be helped to thrive, just not at the expense of other native cultures, who may have lost their own distinctive language and now speak English, but are nonetheless valid cultures in their own right.
If you went round all the places that are supposed to be Scottish (or affiliate themselves with Scotland) and asked them this question you would get a myriad of answers.
weeboyagee
26-Aug-09, 10:13
Gaelic is ... to all intents and purposes a dead language, and there is no point in resurrecting it.
Gaelic may not be dead
Make up your mind.
rather than just making sweeping statements
When I have some time, you'll understand that any statements that I make are not sweeping when it comes to Gaelic.
I have often taken a back seat in many of the Gaelic topics on here for reasons of keeping a positive profile about it in the community, which I still intend to do. Caithness is a cracking county that has managed to embrace the many, varied cultures that has sought fit to visit it.
You have an enthusiasm to be admired but you haven't convinced me in the slightest by your research. Seriously, research it with an open mind young Alan. And I mean open. I still believe that your opinions are based on listening to others and basing it on what you believe is the strongest argument, rather than the strongest case. There is a difference. I am not for one minute telling you that Gaelic's case or argument is strongest in Caithness - far from it.
I'm going to leave that with you atm. PM me if you want to discuss, happy to do so. I admire the youth that are prepared to debate - it's good for you - and good for the older contributors too! (There's a few folk on here that have seen me disect a post like you tried to do to mine my friend - I got tired of it.)
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
26-Aug-09, 10:29
To be honest WBG you sound like a seal clapping it's flappers
Hahaha - you know this gleeber - it was precisely that vision that was in my head when I posted! I just forgot to add the arf,...arf,...arf.... after it!
Seriously, I have seen your posts over the years (remember the days when we really COULD debate without the threat of a thread closure!!!!) and it's the non sarcastic, heart felt posts which firmly believe in their conviction that have the best effect - regardless of which side they argue from.
In this county, I find it difficult to even enter into a reasoned discussion about Gaelic without the other party taking offence very quickly and it's over a period of time you get to understand what it is that's the issue.
I'm a learner, always have been, always will be - my spoken ability ahead of my reading which is ahead of my writing! But even though I've lived in this county most of my life, with a family whose generations go back many years in the county, I've come to know the culture of the county and it's incorporation in the greater Highland community from a more (I don't know if this is the right word) open point of view. The unfortunate thing is that view is not by any manner of means represented by any aspect of operation by the HC! A point I think most of us share! There is room for enough of all cultures in our home county - we just all need to understand how we accommodate each other at the right level. Beyond that, we start considering the bigger aspect - the Gaelic Language Act, the ring-fenced spends, the disproportionate (as we see it) spend or cut as an opportunity cost to Gaelic (whether it is understood or not) and then we allow that to interfere with how we focus and shape our own local community, which to date and in a larger way, is unaffected.
We have no bilingual roadsigns (yet!), new schools are being built because they are needed, with cash that will never be spent on anything else, Gaelic is being incorporated in literature that at the end of the day will be in English and the cost of which is assured not to affect the delivery of service - yet we find this all so alienating? At the end of the day it all (to my mind) boils down to one of two or three things - fear, jealousy or ignorance.
It becomes a mess.
With no-one in a position to grasp enough of it with any credability and in a manner that it can be sorted out. Locally or otherwise.
And it's unlikely to change.....soon.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
26-Aug-09, 10:39
The question isn't relevant - the poll is whether people consider gaelic of value and whether they consider public support/expenditure is justifiable and what amount they consider to be reasonable.
It is intended to be free of personalities, geography, or any other issue such as road safety, etc.
Its a valid position to hold where you might vote in favour of expenditure on Gaelic in principle while having seperate reservations about a particular issue, etc where the gaelic expenditure is being currently prioritised.
By some historical accident some may have Gaelic as a first language, others may come to the language, others may learn both simoultaneously others may support the language but have no intention of ever learning it. There are many instances where gaelic has skipped a generation - where parents dont speak it but grandchildren do. (perhaps the grand parent feel guilty for not passing it on to their own kids so are making more of an effort for their grand kids) This is particularly relevant today where there has been a rapid decline over a short period for this very reason - because many of my grand parents generation were shamed / pressurised into not passing on the language. Now in hindsight, they deeply regret that decision.
The implication of your question is that there is only one ideal Gaelic specimen - unless someone can demonstrate a continuous and unbroken line of gaelic speakers back though umpteen generation, somehow neither they nor their point of view is valid.
This is demeaning to the many people support the language.
I think you said yourself that this is not an issue about history. (Well its not about me or my history, thats for sure). Its about people who speak the language, or want to speak and even those that dont want to speak the language - today - however they got to where they are now.
I will welcome any one who supports Gaelic, whatever their background.
Each, if they are clever enough, they will find you on the internet in the other forums you post in (anns a' Ghaidhlig!!!) and they will soon find out your background. I did a while ago! But having the language gave me a bit of an advantage!
On the .org, what does it matter if you are native, learner, etc? I would answer the question. If others have at, so what? Are you not proud enough to be satisfied with how you are, or have become, a Gaelic speaker?
WBG :cool:
Although my blood was boiling last night – I had no intention of responding, however, prompted by your support WBG….
While may seem like a simple question for the likes Crayola, it isn't for me.
My relationship with Gaelic is as much about my relationship with my father as it is with the language and I cannot separate the two. Thinking back about it provokes a range of very personal emotions including a mixture of pride, sadness bitterness and deep regret.
My grandparents all had Gaelic and for their trouble were belted and beaten as five and six year olds when they went to school. My father and his brothers had some Gaelic, but they rarely saw each other when I was growing up.
My father gave my some Gaelic when I was little, it was one part of my life mixed up with many others and as I grew up our relationship became more difficult and we rarely spoke. I left Caithness as soon as I left school and lived abroad for many years.
It was only at my fathers funeral, that I learned about the part Gaelic had played in our lives, like a guilty secret which nobody would talk about. After he had passed away I came to realise the value of what he had given me and even though when as an adolescent I had been completely indifferent to it, what he had taught me, had stayed with and is a fundamental part of who I am today.
I have many Gaelic speaking friends and through conversation with them my faltering, broken Gaelic has improved immeasurably.
There you have it – make of it what you will – not that its anybody elses business anyway.
And while they pick through the distressing periods of my life casting their judgment upon me – so shall I judge them – not on their background / religion / family whatever – but on the quality of their contribution to the argument.
I find the attempts to hijack the discussion by smearing my character and credibility juvenile and very insulting personally.
In a wider sense I find it insulting to anyone who believes in the principles of equality and democracy that - people should be accepted for what the say and what they do – rather than their personal or family background.
Who else are you going to exclude from the discussion on this basis...
People born in Scotland but who have moved away
People not born in Scotland but have come to live here
People who were born in Scotland but whose parents come from somewhere else.
People who are out of work and don’t pay taxes
I don’t intend to exclude anyone – and hope to continue on that basis and will continue to work with however is here today - however they got here – and on todays issues rather than constantly dragging up the past.
At this stage, it maybe worth drawing some conclusions from the poll
Before personal issues start to overtake the underlying priciples.
44 Submissions having been made by lunchtime today.
70% of orgers believe that some sort of Public support for Gaelic Language and culture is appropriate.
Of those in favour of support
– 40% believe the amount allocated to Gaelic should be in the region of 0.01% to 0.05%
– 45% believe the amount allocated to Gaelic should by more than 0.1%
The actual Budget allocation for this year is 0.05% falling to 0.047% over the next couple of years.
Thank you and Good Day !
The Pepsi Challenge
26-Aug-09, 12:53
Councilors worries about their seats, perhaps?
I know if my children were going to be forced into an educational system I didn't like, I'd certainly look harder at job offers elsewhere. And how would a Gaelic education prepare these children for life? I guess it would help them understand music and poetry a bit more, but it is it really the case that the survival of Gaelic be placed upon children's sholuders?
Although my blood was boiling last night – I had no intention of responding, however, prompted by your support WBG….
While may seem like a simple question for the likes Crayola, it isn't for me.
My relationship with Gaelic is as much about my relationship with my father as it is with the language and I cannot separate the two. Thinking back about it provokes a range of very personal emotions including a mixture of pride, sadness bitterness and deep regret.
My grandparents all had Gaelic and for their trouble were belted and beaten as five and six year olds when they went to school. My father and his brothers had some Gaelic, but they rarely saw each other when I was growing up.
My father gave my some Gaelic when I was little, it was one part of my life mixed up with many others and as I grew up our relationship became more difficult and we rarely spoke. I left Caithness as soon as I left school and lived abroad for many years.
It was only at my fathers funeral, that I learned about the part Gaelic had played in our lives, like a guilty secret which nobody would talk about. After he had passed away I came to realise the value of what he had given me and even though when as an adolescent I had been completely indifferent to it, what he had taught me, had stayed with and is a fundamental part of who I am today.
I have many Gaelic speaking friends and through conversation with them my faltering, broken Gaelic has improved immeasurably.
There you have it – make of it what you will – not that its anybody elses business anyway.
And while they pick through the distressing periods of my life casting their judgment upon me – so shall I judge them – not on their background / religion / family whatever – but on the quality of their contribution to the argument.
I find the attempts to hijack the discussion by smearing my character and credibility juvenile and very insulting personally.
In a wider sense I find it insulting to anyone who believes in the principles of equality and democracy that - people should be accepted for what the say and what they do – rather than their personal or family background.
Who else are you going to exclude from the discussion on this basis...
People born in Scotland but who have moved away
People not born in Scotland but have come to live here
People who were born in Scotland but whose parents come from somewhere else.
People who are out of work and don’t pay taxes
I don’t intend to exclude anyone – and hope to continue on that basis and will continue to work with however is here today - however they got here – and on todays issues rather than constantly dragging up the past.
Right, let's play a simple game. It is called answer in precisely 10 characters with either 7 or 8 of them being fullstops (snappy title). Why 7 or 8 fullstops? Because the answer is either "yes" or "no" followed by the appropriate number of fullstops.
You may not think so, but it is a simple and relevant question. You obviously support giving money to the promotion of Gaelic, so having it on road signs and other such nonsense. So if we spend all this money on that sort of stuff, will you be able to understand the collection of letters people call Gaelic? And it has nothing to do with your father who I'm sure is a gentleman of the highest calibre.
... and on todays issues rather than constantly dragging up the past.
Remind me again when Gaelic was most prominent...
At this stage, it maybe worth drawing some conclusions from the poll
Before personal issues start to overtake the underlying priciples.
44 Submissions having been made by lunchtime today.
70% of orgers believe that some sort of Public support for Gaelic Language and culture is appropriate.
Of those in favour of support
– 40% believe the amount allocated to Gaelic should be in the region of 0.01% to 0.05%
– 45% believe the amount allocated to Gaelic should by more than 0.1%
The actual Budget allocation for this year is 0.05% falling to 0.047% over the next couple of years.
Thank you and Good Day !
What is perhaps more important is that 6 people voted for greater than 1% of the budget. Do they have any idea how much money that equates to?
I cannot vote on this poll because it does not have a option for voting in favour of Gaelic teaching when we can afford it.
The Courier today http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/7127/Fears_over_cash_crisis_fallout.html states that HC will have to cut £80m. from its budget over the next 3 years, most of which will come from education, culture and sport. Education is in a parlous enough state now and I dread to think what further cuts will do so this is not the time for any unnecessary spending. Pensioners apparently no longer get free classes at college.
The same page tells us that maternity services up here are still under threat and last week there was an article about the shortage of junior doctors in Wick - yet the NHS are determined on spending money translating into Gaelic (having already thrown away £80k on "consultants").
No doubt this winter there will be more complaints about the state of the roads - but who cares so long as the signs are in Gaelic.
The Arts are already having their budgets cut and that is from existing organisations. This is not the time to be spending on new, non-essential projects.
Let's have Gaelic schools, classes etc. when we can afford them - right now, we just can't. That doesn't mean we can't appreciate the culture, welcome the Mod., enjoy the choirs etc.
cuddlepop
26-Aug-09, 13:59
Well said Badger.:D
I bet the gaelic budget isnt cut.:(
The question isn't relevant
We have no bilingual roadsigns (yet!), new schools are being built because they are needed, with cash that will never be spent on anything else, Gaelic is being incorporated in literature that at the end of the day will be in English and the cost of which is assured not to affect the delivery of service - yet we find this all so alienating? At the end of the day it all (to my mind) boils down to one of two or three things - fear, jealousy or ignorance.
It might not be relevant to you but if you ever consider the plight of those of us who are English speakers in an English speaking country perhaps you will begin to understand why we despair when outsiders and hobbyists are given the power to change the nature of our homeland and the way and language we communicate within it. My bloods not boiling yet but it's getting that way. I think what I think and I have a valid moan, just like you, without being accused of prejudice towards Gaelic and dont say you never said I was prejudiced because all the stuff you've writen is pointed in that direction.
WBG says there can only be 3 reasons why someone should be against gaelic and all of them make me out to be agaionst Gaelic for purely individual and personal reasons. Jealousy fear and ignorance he suggests. Thats demenaning too because I'm not the only one against the Gaelic bill. I feel I am defending something that took centuries to form and now The Scottish Parliament in it's wisdom has given the Gaelic Quango the power to stop that natural process. On reflection maybe there is a hint of fear but if I didnt address my fears then my opinion would be worthless.
I understand my perception of Gaelic culture and there is little of that in Caithness.Theres no reason it cant co-exist with the local community without taking it over becuase equal rights is the power bestowed on it and take over it really wants to do. The Melvich Gaelic choir is an integral part of the Caithness community and unfortunetly I dont get the chance to see enough of them, but its their uniquenss that gives it its power. Fast forward 50 years and Gaelic still has equal powers there will be a Gaelic choirs everywhere. but maybe thats not a bad thing either I can hear you think.
Coucillor Flear in the article in the Courier was right to raise the question of Gaelic roadsigns as a way of saving a few bob but the issue is way beyond that. Its about the Gaelic bill itself, thats the problem not the Gaelic language.
If councillor Rosie is an orger and hes reading this then, surely your resistance to the Gaelic bill is similar to mine? There are plenty other reasons too but fundamentally theres something wrong with the bill. Surely as councillrs you should be addressing that problem and not niggling away at the Highland council who are only puppet masters of Edinburghs laws.
While may seem like a simple question for the likes Crayola, it isn't for me.Did you really think it was a simple question? It was a cutting question and as such it solicited your long reply about your relationship with Gaelic and your father.
You should try attending performances by our national performing arts companies. They would introduce you to some of our Scottish culture that you are missing.
weeboyagee
27-Aug-09, 13:52
you will begin to understand why we despair when outsiders and hobbyists are given the power to change the nature of our homeland and the way and language we communicate within it
Don't you think gleeber, that this is the way that the Gael's see it in their homeland? English becoming a more dominant language and those with no Gaelic that move into the area with no Gaelic and contribute to the dilution of the community percentage, see this as a way to sustain the language and re-establish it in the same way as the years have seen fit to dilute and debase it?
Not so in modern day Caithness but certainly in other areas that we are now part of - the Highlands and Island. You look at the stages of the various island heritages - Mull with little native Gaels and whole host of non-indigenous people, families and cultures. Skye hanging on to it's pockets (rural) of indigenous Gaels but still affected by the same. Lewis, less so but still affected. The West Coast also. All these areas at various stages of loosing their heritage bit by bit.
As I said previous, here in Caithness we have every right to hang on to what we believe our heritage is - the only thing is, we really haven't a clue yet what that is we just "know" (or "think") that it's just "not Gaelic". We have a lot of prejudice in our modern day thinking against our past heritage and it isn't beyond the modern Caithnessian to realise that they can shape the county to reflect their true heritage - all of it, inclusive of it's Gaelic history.
...without being accused of prejudice towards Gaelic and dont say you never said I was prejudiced because all the stuff you've writen is pointed in that direction.
I know that you didn't aim that at me but for the record, I don't think that you personally are prejudiced but I do think that there is an "air" of prejudice that we don't even realise when we are not considerate about the contributions of cultures to our own land and heritage - internal and external influences both - since nearly ALL of them have been external influences, as the other areas in the Highlands.
WBG says there can only be 3 reasons why someone should be against gaelic and all of them make me out to be against Gaelic for purely individual and personal reasons. Jealousy, fear and ignorance he suggests. Thats demeaning too because I'm not the only one against the Gaelic bill.
All your posts strike me as fear. Fear of Gaelic taking over, fear of Gaelic taking a spend away from something that you would otherwise spend it on, fear of Gealic coming into "your" area and homeland. I don't think I am far wrong on that one. You may take this to be demeaning but I think that I have struck a sensitive area.
I feel I am defending something that took centuries to form
If Gaelic was a part of Caithness culture, like it or not, in the whole or not, how can you be defending the heritage (if indeed that is what you are referring to)?
The Scottish Parliament in it's wisdom has given the Gaelic Quango the power to stop that natural process.
In as much as the Education Act was employed to stop the natural process of the deriliction of Gaelic. It is a reality that if we didn't employ legislation to affect or effect natural process then mankind would have the strongest surviving and the richest getting richer. There are decisions that have to be made in all aspects of life to preserve it - economically, culturally, humanely. The fact that this is legislation that affects your point of view, your own bit of territory and in your time is all that you have against it. It's nothing to do with natural process.
On reflection maybe there is a hint of fear but if I didnt address my fears then my opinion would be worthless
Sorry - just came across this in my answer to your post as I read it bit by bit! I'm not going to say I was right but I will say I agree with you.
I understand my perception of Gaelic culture and there is little of that in Caithness.
Could it be that it's because the perception is not correct (I didn't say wrong there btw!)?
There's no reason it cant co-exist with the local community without taking it over becuase equal rights is the power bestowed on it and take over it really wants to do.
Not that I am aware of. You haven't got your road-signs yet and even if you had, is this really a takeover? Since there is damn-all Gaelic in Caithness as it is, is it not the case that no Gaelic is the only way for the community? Surely this isn't an embrace of co-existance? This is a non-existance. What's a wee bit of Gaelic on a leaflet going to do to you if you can read it also in English? Is it really THAT bothering?
The Melvich Gaelic choir is an integral part of the Caithness community and unfortunetly I dont get the chance to see enough of them, but its their uniquenss that gives it its power. Fast forward 50 years and Gaelic still has equal powers there will be a Gaelic choirs everywhere.
Help ma boab!!! However, take Wales. And I'm afraid you would be absolutely right about this. Is it going to be a bad thing (with the exception of Melvich Gaelic Choir not being so unique) - as you say - maybe not :p ?
Surely as councillrs you should be addressing that problem and not niggling away at the Highland council who are only puppet masters of Edinburghs laws.
Statement of the day and I whole-heartidly agree with it - the context and the sentiment.
And I apologise if it looked as though I set out for that to be a systematic destruction of your post. It had a lot of good points in it and I just wanted to address them as fairly as I could from my point of view. Anyway - it passed my lunch away fine!
WBG :cool:
Alice in Blunderland
27-Aug-09, 13:59
Anyway - it passed my lunch away fine!
WBG :cool:
Now get back to work then :p
We are seeing just another chapter in Scotland's history. We've changed our language so many times over millenia, this is just the latest. In a 100 years from now our grandchildren will be thinking (in gaelic) what all the fuss was about, it wasn't as if what was before had any real identity anyway.:Razz
And I apologise if it looked as though I set out for that to be a systematic destruction of your post. It had a lot of good points in it and I just wanted to address them as fairly as I could from my point of view. Anyway - it passed my lunch away fine!
WBG :cool:
Your clapping your flappers again WBG. ;)
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