View Full Version : I'm trying to figure this one out ??
Alice in Blunderland
23-Apr-09, 20:23
I am trying to get my head around this thought and have been all day. :confused
Am I right in thinking that until my children are well in their twenties I am responsible, if I can afford it, to pay for their further education ie University including accomodation fees food etc etc.
If on the other hand my girls get pregnant and need help I can refuse to support them and the goverment will step in. :confused I dont have to support them at all after sixteen.
Stupid thought but its been rattling in my head this afternoon.
northener
23-Apr-09, 20:28
Got it it one......
Try to make a go of your life and you'll get very little.
Start pumping out brats from an early age and you will be supplied with a house and money FOC.
Strange you should bring that up Alice. My niece and her partner both work full time, they have a 1 yr old son and live with my sister. My niece has asked the local council, Basingstoke & Deane, about getting a house and they've been refused because with two wages they are expected to rent privately, even though both earn the National Minimum Wage and can't afford too. However, if one of them were to give up work then the council would be able to move them higher up the waiting list, if both gave up work they would get a house as soon as one became available!! The world has truly gone mad.
what is the answer innocent childred cant be made to suffer
[disgust]
Strange you should bring that up Alice. My niece and her partner both work full time, they have a 1 yr old son and live with my sister. My niece has asked the local council, Basingstoke & Deane, about getting a house and they've been refused because with two wages they are expected to rent privately, even though both earn the National Minimum Wage and can't afford too. However, if one of them were to give up work then the council would be able to move them higher up the waiting list, if both gave up work they would get a house as soon as one became available!! The world has truly gone mad.
[mad] don't it just push yr buttons...the whole system just winds me up...when i was younger it was a case of go to school get an education and do something with your life...they never said it was so i could bust a gut to provide for my family ....oh and all those who cant be harrissed to get up an do it for themselves [mad]
Alice in Blunderland
23-Apr-09, 21:10
what is the answer innocent childred cant be made to suffer
How would they suffer ?
There But For The Grace Of God.........
Not every child has the best start in life. If it was me I would be thankful they had the sort of upbringing that encourages them to go to Uni and not get pregnant. As a parent investing in your childs future should be paramount and it's not always in money.
ciderally
23-Apr-09, 21:59
seems the answer is have as many kids as poss...dont do any work...get loads of dosh...
have i got that right???
Alice in Blunderland
23-Apr-09, 22:08
There But For The Grace Of God.........
Not every child has the best start in life. If it was me I would be thankful they had the sort of upbringing that encourages them to go to Uni and not get pregnant. As a parent investing in your childs future should be paramount and it's not always in money.
Oh dont get me wrong my children have not got a silver spoon in there mouth and I in the past have been on benefits.
If I was not as fortunate to be able to afford them Uni then there is a system in place.......loans which they have to pay back once in a good job.
I am truly finding it harder to get my head round how this system encourages the less fortunate without making those who are slightly better off resentfull of trying to do well in their life.:confused
Oh dont get me wrong my children have not got a silver spoon in there mouth and I in the past have been on benefits.
If I was not as fortunate to be able to afford them Uni then there is a system in place.......loans which they have to pay back once in a good job.
I am truly finding it harder to get my head round how this system encourages the less fortunate without making those who are slightly better off resentfull of trying to do well in their life.:confused
It's simple the system doesn't. Our model in Scotland is to put people down or say they are getting ideas above their station this is not a model of encouragement. Personally I think young people are being constantly praised for doing nothing much.:confused
Alice in Blunderland
23-Apr-09, 22:23
I have just worked it out should all three of my oldest kids go to Uni within the nest two years which is a definate possibility. I am looking at paying £1500 a month.
This is to cover mostly everything. :(
I dont mind truly if they want to go they will go but the system to me more and more seems to have got it all wrong.
It is all means tested according to the parents income if you want to go further in Education when they are under a certain age and this doesnt apply when it comes down to claiming benefits when you are under the same age . Honest Im not complaining yet just wondering about it all. :)
It's just the same for children in care. They want to go too but nobody backs them or they have to take loans that makes it impossible. It's swings and roundabouts but I know which I'd prefer.:confused
Alice in Blunderland
23-Apr-09, 22:32
It's just the same for children in care. They want to go too but nobody backs them or they have to take loans that makes it impossible. It's swings and roundabouts but I know which I'd prefer.:confused
This is where its all wrong these children should be recieving as much help as possible to give them a chance. I dont agree with them having to apply for loans in this instance.
The more you look at the system the more you see the failings in it. :(
Lets look at it the other way round just for a moment.
Imagine.......
Until my children are well in their twenties the state will pay for all their further education ie University including accomodation fees food etc etc.
If on the other hand my girls get pregnant and need help the state will refuse to support them and I will have to do it even if i cant afford to. There is no help at all for an unmarried mother with a child other than that which her family provides. If I dont help she is just left to cope alone.
Hmmmm
I dont know what the answer is but i dont think thats the right one. There has to be some sort of balance on the grounds of need. Higher education should be free and the grant system should be brought back on a means tested basis. No one should leave college with a huge debt around their necks. We have to help teenage mums but we need to address why ( or indeed if because im not sure there has ever been proper research into the issue rather than just tabloid tosh pot) some teenage girls seem to beleive that their lives will be BETTER with a baby and on benefits. Why would a teenage girl think living in a flat with a baby on Income support is preferable to their home with their parents and having fun. Until thats resolved we wont reduce teenage pregnancies.
kitty kat
23-Apr-09, 23:07
my 18 year old sister got a full time job got a council house as she was living with me at the time and because she was so young was assigned a helper (just someone to help with forms and shopping) and when the woman turned up she asked if my sister was needing to sign on.
when she said she had a job the woman was shocked and told my sister she would be better off on the brew because she could get loans and grants and what not to help her build up a home because she had a minimum wage job 40 hrs she could pay it herself she moved in with not a thing to her name
imagine that being told she would be better off signing on at 18 !!!
Strange you should bring that up Alice. My niece and her partner both work full time, they have a 1 yr old son and live with my sister. My niece has asked the local council, Basingstoke & Deane, about getting a house and they've been refused because with two wages they are expected to rent privately, even though both earn the National Minimum Wage and can't afford too. However, if one of them were to give up work then the council would be able to move them higher up the waiting list, if both gave up work they would get a house as soon as one became available!! The world has truly gone mad.
How do they get on with ther respective employers. Couldnt they explain the situation to them so they could get "finished". Then when they get a council house re start them. Just a thought.
It's just the same for children in care. They want to go too but nobody backs them or they have to take loans that makes it impossible. It's swings and roundabouts but I know which I'd prefer.:confused
If they are being Looked After By Local Authority at the age of 16 then they are entitled to support, including rent, bus fares, living allowance until they leave full time education.
Highland Council buys this in from Barnardos Springboard.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/springboard.htm
Children in care are still much more unlikely to go on and study further but it is a start.
The whole benefit system is a mess, I think it needs a complete overhaul, so it goes back to being a support system and not a way of life.
Alice in Blunderland
24-Apr-09, 06:51
The whole benefit system is a mess, I think it needs a complete overhaul, so it goes back to being a support system and not a way of life.
Its not just the benefits system its the whole system. :(
The messages sent out by government are all wrong. One section of the population are growing up thinking I dont need to get a job Im better of unemployed get iven a council house rent paid council tax paid and live on minmal money. Not the best way to live but a life.
Another section are thinking what on earth am I doing wrong ?
Get a good education head to Uni possibly coming out with around thirty thousand pounds of debt if mum and dad cant pay.
Get a decent job, pay off your debt, earn a decent wage pay 40 % tax.
Save and watch your savings wipe out if the government get it wrong.
With your nice earnings build a decent house and get hit with higher council tax and the possibility that someone out there thinks nice place to rob.
Buy a decent car and watch some yob on the street with a grudge scratch it or knock off a wing mirror.
Truly get on and earn around 150,000 and the government are saying thankyou very much we've screwed up so now you can hand over half so that it can be sorted. :confused
As you can see Alice is sliding into negative mode...............:~(
The whole system is flawed,you can continue to get child benefit until the child is 20 IF they dont go on to advanced education :eek: in otherwords if they go to college and study anything under a HNC they can get the benefit but if they are "clever" the benefit stops!Surely it would be more like sense to let those who have a chance to better there education to have the extra money?x
I cant help but think ANY further education should be free or goverment funded after all we pay enough taxes,after all once they have finished there education they pay it all back in to the system with the tax on there wages,
Education is one of the best gifts in life, with out it what happens? kids with nothing better to do go out get in to trouble because they cant get a job due to lack of education/qualifications or get pregnant costing the goverment and taxpayer even more money with no end result.
Well said rie and I totally agree!Couldnt rep you for it though as I havent spread it around enough yet :eek: x
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8012362.stm
It seems many youngsters who do qualify for university will have added competition for places.
Alice in Blunderland
24-Apr-09, 13:22
Should it not be one rule for one one rule for all. :)
If Im responsible for my childrens costs until in their twenties if they want to stay in education to eventually give something back into the system via taxes should they get a good job. Should not other parents be responsible for their childrens costs until their twenties ? :confused
Its not just the benefits system its the whole system.
The messages sent out by government are all wrong. One section of the population are growing up thinking I dont need to get a job Im better of unemployed get iven a council house rent paid council tax paid and live on minmal money. Not the best way to live but a life.
Is it the messages by the government though? Is that what your children think Alice? Is that what you thought? Was it what I thought? I would bet no its not. There was never ever any thought in my mind that I would leave school and not work, that i would be pregnant before i was married, that i would live in a council house with my rent paid. what makes you, me and our children aspire to more? is it the government? I doubt it - what is it then that prevents other young people from aspiring to anything more than a life on benefits whilst those like our children work hard to achieve more anddont consider any alternative?
Truly get on and earn around 150,000 and the government are saying thankyou very much we've screwed up so now you can hand over half so that it can be sorted.
Am i the only one that thinks that if you are lucky enough to earn a significant salary then you should be prepared to pay more in tax to hep those who are less fortunate than you? I would doubt that someone earning £150, 000 per year actually pays half their pay in tax - they still get allowances remember so it wont mean they only take home £75 000 cash from their salary. I also wouldnt want to see it go more than 50%
As you can see Alice is sliding into negative mode...............
Never mind alice just look up susan boyle on you tube and you'll be smiling in no time:D
Alice in Blunderland
24-Apr-09, 17:47
Is it the messages by the government though? Is that what your children think Alice? Is that what you thought? Was it what I thought? I would bet no its not. There was never ever any thought in my mind that I would leave school and not work, that i would be pregnant before i was married, that i would live in a council house with my rent paid. what makes you, me and our children aspire to more? is it the government? I doubt it - what is it then that prevents other young people from aspiring to anything more than a life on benefits whilst those like our children work hard to achieve more anddont consider any alternative?
Am i the only one that thinks that if you are lucky enough to earn a significant salary then you should be prepared to pay more in tax to hep those who are less fortunate than you? I would doubt that someone earning £150, 000 per year actually pays half their pay in tax - they still get allowances remember so it wont mean they only take home £75 000 cash from their salary. I also wouldnt want to see it go more than 50%
Never mind alice just look up susan boyle on you tube and you'll be smiling in no time:D
No ! I believe it starts within the home and how our children are raised.
If there is a safety net which becomes a comfort blanket then thats when the message percieved by some has become all screwed up. Also the benefits are there to be had easily is that also not why our country has become the target for so many who want to come to our shores because of the easy system. They are not queing up so willingly for other countries Why ?? a different system in place.
What prevents others from aspiring to do better I dont know I am not one of them but I am thinking it may be lack of motivation.
Yes pay more if you earn more but at the end of the day there is a limit to how much you can take out of someone before they decide enoughs enough and they themselves start to dodge the system or even up tacks and go elsewhere to work then you loose their tax altogether. I for one believe that some of the high earners have good accountants getting them off with as much as possible and there are others paying tax through the nose.
I have seen Susan and yes she does help lift ones spirits. :)
Its not just the Government its also the parents and society in general IMHO :)
Its not just the Government its also the parents and society in general IMHO :)
I Absolutely agree!;)
Alice in Blunderland
24-Apr-09, 18:14
I Absolutely agree!;)
Okay lets you and me stand for parliament and we can make a start at trying to put things right ;)
Mrs Bucket
24-Apr-09, 19:14
children dont ask to be born to wothless , useless alchoholic drugie etdc parents the point is someone has to be resopsible for them It is ok if you are in an ivory tower
Gene Hunt
24-Apr-09, 19:44
Nice to see that some people think because I worked my backside off to get where I am that somehow makes me responsible for others. Here's a thought, get off your backside and make the effort yourself. I make a good living and so does my wife. We are well off because we worked hard to get where we are, it had nothing to do with "luck" and a lot to do with sacrifice, dedication and going without. There were a lot of lean times with young children and we struggled until we both got established.
Took me two years to get qualified and my wife a lot longer than that. I have twin daughters and we will put them through University ourselves. They want to go to Cardiff University so they can stay at home and that will save a good bit. We will do our best to see that they graduate with no debt but we will get no help for our kids while paying a LOT more tax than others who will.
Okay lets you and me stand for parliament and we can make a start at trying to put things right ;)
Vote for Squidge & Alice!:D The start of real democracy - we'll all vote for you and you can put everything right - thanks!;)
you wont be expected to pay for your kids education if you cant afford it. student loans/bursarys are means tested (atleast for everything above HNC) so the less you earn the more your kids get from the college/SAAS.
also, since 2007 tution fees have been abolished in scotland so your kids dont pay for that either.
the size of your student debt depends on the person. ive been in further education nearly 5 years and mines is nowhere near 30,000.
hopefully you can sleep a bit easier now!
So really it doesn't matter if your rich or poor. If you want it bad enough you can.
I went to Uni, admittedly about 15 years ago but I paid for it myself.
Nice to see that some people think because I worked my backside off to get where I am that somehow makes me responsible for others.
We are all responsible for others Gene. I dont think that just cos a person earns more they should be hammered but i do think that if we are high earners then we should be taxed a wee bit more to help pay for those less fortunate than ourselves. Not everyone is lazing around on their backside making no effort Some people are working incredibly hard and arenever going to reach the dizzy heights of £20 000 per year never mind anything more.
So really it doesn't matter if your rich or poor. If you want it bad enough you can.
Ah but apparently it does - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7473469.stm
Ah but apparently it does - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7473469.stm
all that report says is that ppl from poorer backgrounds are misrepresented in uni's - not that they are being prevented from going to uni.
and it focuses on the english system which is less accessible than the scottish one. they have to pay things like tuition & topup fees which we dont.
Mrs Bucket
25-Apr-09, 08:39
Thank goodness there are some who dont all think IM all right jack so though. Some are gifted or blessed in life others get a faw deal disabled mentally or physically or just cant make the grade educationally no matter how hard they try or support there parents who for one reason or another are not able to cope but then maybe they should not have been allowed to have children
I am trying to get my head around this thought and have been all day. :confused
Am I right in thinking that until my children are well in their twenties I am responsible, if I can afford it, to pay for their further education ie University including accomodation fees food etc etc.
Don't they get student loans for that?
Gene Hunt
25-Apr-09, 13:58
We are all responsible for others Gene. I dont think that just cos a person earns more they should be hammered but i do think that if we are high earners then we should be taxed a wee bit more to help pay for those less fortunate than ourselves. Not everyone is lazing around on their backside making no effort Some people are working incredibly hard and arenever going to reach the dizzy heights of £20 000 per year never mind anything more
Seems to be a one way street in my view. Mainly consisting of those who don't earn what I do telling me I have a "responsibility" to them because I am somehow "luckier". To quote Northerner .. Get Stuffed.
Both myself and my wife are already in the 40% Tax bracket. I pay in a LOT more than I get back. I am no doubt already helping people through my taxes. Yet my two girls will get no assistance because me and the wife worked our backsides off and are on good money. Its a different system here in Wales than in Scotland with Tuition fees and the like, we will get zero help for our daughters.
I am not "Lucky" I worked hard and got the job I wanted at the cost of not a few sacrifices. Nice to see that all that means is that I get no help while those who haven't paid in as much as me just complain about what I have left.
Alice in Blunderland
25-Apr-09, 14:31
Don't they get student loans for that?
Yes its means tested. :D I dont mind paying I have no problem. I find it hard to wonder why this is applied to children going into further education but not to other children who when under a certain age can recieve many benefits from the system.
Seems to be a one way street in my view. Mainly consisting of those who don't earn what I do telling me I have a "responsibility" to them because I am somehow "luckier". To quote Northerner .. Get Stuffed.
Both myself and my wife are already in the 40% Tax bracket. I pay in a LOT more than I get back. I am no doubt already helping people through my taxes. Yet my two girls will get no assistance because me and the wife worked our backsides off and are on good money. Its a different system here in Wales than in Scotland with Tuition fees and the like, we will get zero help for our daughters.
I am not "Lucky" I worked hard and got the job I wanted at the cost of not a few sacrifices. Nice to see that all that means is that I get no help while those who haven't paid in as much as me just complain about what I have left.
I have to agree with you Gene the harder you work the more the government want, my wife and I both work hard pay a shed load of money every year in income tax and national insurance. I like you do not consider myself to be lucky, I started with nothing and had to work bloody hard to get what I have today. There is a man I know we shall call him Mr X who lives a few streets away who has 5 children,neither he or his wife have ever worked a day in their lives and what's more he has publicly stated on a number of occasions that he has no intention of getting a job as he says it wouldn't be worth his while working, he has a car which he uses for shall we say wheeling and dealing, he lives in a council house he pays no rent and little or no council tax and can afford to go out to the pub most weekends and what's more recently returned home from a holiday abroad. As he quite often points out to people everything that he has is paid for by the state and it does not bother him one bit. It is this type of person who gets me annoyed, when I see my taxes going to keep him in the life style to which he has become accustomed . I for one have no problem helping those who are in need and are less fortunate or are just starting out in life but to hell giving to those who have no intention giving anything back...
I for one have no problem helping those who are in need and are less fortunate or are just starting out in life .
And thats the important bit..... No one is suggesting that people who are milking the system should be given a free ride. Its the bit that allows people to get away with doing nothing all their lives and encouraging their children to do nothing that needs to be changed but hey... didn't we come in to this discussion here? Its not the fact that people need help but that they EXPECT it all done for them? What makes them like that - it isnt the benefit system per se it is other things as alice said in the post a wee while ago. In fact in my 20 years of experience i have found that there are far fewer true "wasters" than the man in the street or the Daily Mail would have us beleive.
I am no doubt already helping people through my taxes. Isn't that my point though? You earn more therefore you are paying more in tax to help those who are less able, fortunate, or otherwise less well off than you.
and Yet my two girls will get no assistance because me and the wife worked our backsides off and are on good money. nope its because you have enough residual income to be able to afford to help them yourself. people who earn less than you dont work less hard than you Im sure.
I am not "Lucky" I worked hard and got the job I wanted at the cost of not a few sacrifices. Nice to see that all that means is that I get no help while those who haven't paid in as much as me just complain about what I have left. who is complaining about what you have left? I am sure you aren't suggesting that the sacrifices you made, and the hard work you did is more valuable than the sacrifices and the hard work the hospital cleaner made or the school janitor, or the classroom assistant or the road sweeper or other low paid jobs. You dont get help because you earn enough to not NEED help, people on low incomes get help because they NEED help otherwise there is no way their children could afford university.
And i think you ARE lucky.... lucky enough not to have had been seriously injured in your work, lucky enough to be healthy enough to be able to work, lucky enough to have a marriage that has weathered the storms that some marriages cant weather and lucky enough to earn a good wage. I dont begrudge you any of that in any way, i dont doubt that you worked hard and made sacrifices along the way but so did a lot of other people who now sit on incapacity benefit or as a single parent or in a low paid job. If i had my way ALL young people would get a free university education if they wanted it however I dont have my way. Therefore it is absolutely right that the support should go where it is needed most. Thats rightly to the children of the less well off. Betterthat way that to say " well im sorry you didnt apply yourself or work hard enough or make enough sacrifices to have the sort of job that pays you good wages so your children can pay the price for your lack of ambition by not being able to go to university".
Mrs Bucket
25-Apr-09, 17:25
Some people have not got the ability or the luck if you dont like the system do something about it other than moan and whinge I am working and paying taxes and I choose to live in this country the alternative is to move
i think the benefits system is pretty fair if anything theyve clamped down lately. ppl seem to forget that you only get something like £90 a week to live on. doesnt stretch that fair these days!
Gene Hunt
25-Apr-09, 18:44
Squide,
Will you stop calling me "lucky" .. I only have one testicle. I am not that lucky. I resent your patronising tone and condescending attitude towards my position in life by claiming I am somehow "lucky" because I have what I have. My job and marriage are succesful because I work at it, damn hard. Both myself and my wife pay a higher percentage of our wages in Tax than most. Our reward for that is that we get nothing out of a system that we fund more than most. I see that as unlucky.
You talk as if everyone has an automatic right to go to University. It has to be earned, I did and I payed my own way through. You want every child to go to University but who is going to pay for it .. You ??, its all well and good volunteering the taxes of those of us who actually earn them isn't it ??, are you in the 40% Tax bracket by chance and funding your grand ideas through your efforts or are you just wanting to spend the taxes of others ??
Its a big bad world out there and not everyone will get to the Top. And you know what ??, if parents haven't worked hard enough, haven't had the ambition, haven't applied themselves or sacrificed enough to give their children the opportunities mine had then as far as I am concerned that is their fault. Mine didn't and I still made it because I worked my backside off, or do children need everything handed to them these days ?? Telling me that I have an obligation to make up for the shortcomings of other people is a non starter in my view.
People used to work for what they wanted. Now if they haven't got it they just claim it is someone elses job to provide it.
Squide,
Our reward for that is that we get nothing out of a system that we fund more than most. I see that as unlucky.
right so your private healthcare then? when you go to the chemist you pay for your prescriptions (even though there free in wales)? kids all at private schools?
you get plenty out of the system. if your not happy in the 40% bracket then you could always move to dubai or monaco
Alice in Blunderland
25-Apr-09, 19:44
i think the benefits system is pretty fair if anything theyve clamped down lately. ppl seem to forget that you only get something like £90 a week to live on. doesnt stretch that fair these days!
Thats maybe from one persons view.
When I was in receipt of benefits a good few years ago I was recieving on top of my part time wage around £1000 in benefits a month.This was not including family allowance and maintenance from my ex. Total all my monies up and in one month my income was over £2000.
I worked with someone who was a single parent with two children whose ex did not pay her maintenance for the kids and she earned too much to recieve any benefits.......... her take home pay was £1800. Now thats another one hard to get your head around. :)
Thats maybe from one persons view.
When I was in receipt of benefits a good few years ago I was recieving on top of my part time wage around £1000 in benefits a month.This was not including family allowance and maintenance from my ex. Total all my monies up and in one month my income was over £2000.
I worked with someone who was a single parent with two children whose ex did not pay her maintenance for the kids and she earned too much to recieve any benefits.......... her take home pay was £1800. Now thats another one hard to get your head around. :)
im signing on in that case! nothin better than sitting around drinkin super lager and watchin jeremy kyle - beats workin for a living anyways!
not that im suggesting thats what you were doing tho lol:lol:
Alice in Blunderland
25-Apr-09, 20:06
Another point on the subject off putting your kids through Further Education.
My earnings are a pittance in comparison to my husband who is in the 40% tax bracket and if this Goverment keeps it up he will soon be in the 50% bracket.
It is also the rule that its the income of the house the child is living in that is assessed for the child going to University not the income of the parents if they are seperated.
My husbands salary means that my oldest cannot recieve any benefits and should her dad not want to pay he doesnt have to although this is not the issue with me just another point to ponder. Truly we are willing to pay as this is for the benefit of the kids. I am not complaining just drawig attention to rules in place to make sure you pay if you can afford it for your children so should this not be applied in a wider area other than education
As with Gene Hunt my husband works very hard putting in, in excess of ninety hours some weeks in his work. He has instilled into the children a good attitude towards education and striving to do the best they can do and only time will tell if they take this on with them into life. :)
right so your private healthcare then? when you go to the chemist you pay for your prescriptions (even though there free in wales)? kids all at private schools?
you get plenty out of the system. if your not happy in the 40% bracket then you could always move to dubai or monaco
if every tax payer had to pay 40% tax that would be fair, its the system that is wrong, the harder you work the more you have to pay ,the system penalises you for hard work, free prescriptions are available to every one in Scotland and Wales as is education and the Health Service no matter how much you earn, people who are in the 10% - 20% tax band often qualify for family and working tax credits which allows them to apply and receive rent rebates and council tax rebates along with other benefits like free school meals for their children etc. People who are in the 40% tax band have to pay mortgages, full council tax, no rebates available no matter how many children you have. If every 40% tax payer cleared of to Monaco or Dubai who would be left to foot the bills then?
Squide,
Will you stop calling me "lucky" .. I only have one testicle. I am not that lucky. I resent your patronising tone and condescending attitude towards my position in life by claiming I am somehow "lucky" because I have what I have. My job and marriage are succesful because I work at it, damn hard. Both myself and my wife pay a higher percentage of our wages in Tax than most. Our reward for that is that we get nothing out of a system that we fund more than most. I see that as unlucky.
You talk as if everyone has an automatic right to go to University. It has to be earned, I did and I payed my own way through. You want every child to go to University but who is going to pay for it .. You ??, its all well and good volunteering the taxes of those of us who actually earn them isn't it ??, are you in the 40% Tax bracket by chance and funding your grand ideas through your efforts or are you just wanting to spend the taxes of others ??
Its a big bad world out there and not everyone will get to the Top. And you know what ??, if parents haven't worked hard enough, haven't had the ambition, haven't applied themselves or sacrificed enough to give their children the opportunities mine had then as far as I am concerned that is their fault. Mine didn't and I still made it because I worked my backside off, or do children need everything handed to them these days ?? Telling me that I have an obligation to make up for the shortcomings of other people is a non starter in my view.
How is calling someone lucky patronising???? what is absolutley patronising and actually quite insulting Gene is to suggest that you worked harder, sacrificed more to get where you are than someone who isnt earning enough to put them in a higher tax bracket. Your assumption that you are somehow so much better than other people is something i dont understand. As though a hospital cleaner or a care assistant somehow doesnt work as hard or have to sacrifice things to get where they are. Why on earth would you think that???? I think every child who has the ability and the work ethic and the desire to go to university should be able to go.
You ask about my personal circumstances ok here you go... i dont work - you know that very well - i stay at home and look after my sons. I am 45. I worked every day from leaving school at 18 until 18 months ago. I had a career that moved me across country and as a result of that I have been in the 40% tax bracket. I may very well be there again. I have also been on benefits after i threw the towel in on my marriage which i didnt care enough about apparently - according to you my compassionate friend - to work hard enough to save and which in ending my marriage meant the end of my career because i couldnt be a mum to my children and run all over the country so maybe you and other higher tax bracket earners dont have a monopoly on sacrifice. My husband earns a good wage so I will have to pay for my children should they choose university - just like you and Alice. They will have to get a job to support themselves and we will work it out because we can do that.
You dont get it though do you? I am not telling YOU - Mr Gene Hunt (or is that inspector?) that you are solely responsible for everyone. I am saying we Are ALL responsible for other people, for society, for equality of opportunity and i am saying that help should be there for people less fortunate because there are people who are less fortunate not who somehow failed because they couldnt be bothered. People who didnt have the breaks, didnt have the nouse, didnt have the health to do what you are doing and what i did for however many years - earn plenty cash so we dont NEED help. We cant all make it to the top - thank goodness for that eh!!!! Someone has to empty the bins but that isnt to do with not working hard enough. And just because WE dont need help it doesnt mean that we shouldnt give it to those who DO need it.
People used to work for what they wanted. Now if they haven't got it they just claim it is someone elses job to provide it.
And people used to look out for one another. Now as long as I'm all right Jack some look no further than their noses. Lets hope these people never have to find out what life is REALLY like when no matter how hard they work, how many sacrifices they make they cant find a cure for the cancer that means they have to stop work and rely on benefits, or they cant find a way to forgive their spouse when they have slapped them so hard they dont think they will ever hear properly again and they find themselves out on their ear with nothing but the clothes they stand up in and their children to look after.
Gene Hunt
25-Apr-09, 22:30
How is calling someone lucky patronising???? what is absolutley patronising and actually quite insulting Gene is to suggest that you worked harder, sacrificed more to get where you are than someone who isnt earning enough to put them in a higher tax bracket. Your assumption that you are somehow so much better than other people is something i dont understand. As though a hospital cleaner or a care assistant somehow doesnt work as hard or have to sacrifice things to get where they are. Why on earth would you think that???? I think every child who has the ability and the work ethic and the desire to go to university should be able to go.
You ask about my personal circumstances ok here you go... i dont work - you know that very well - i stay at home and look after my sons. I am 45. I worked every day from leaving school at 18 until 18 months ago. I had a career that moved me across country and as a result of that I have been in the 40% tax bracket. I may very well be there again. I have also been on benefits after i threw the towel in on my marriage which i didnt care enough about apparently - according to you my compassionate friend - to work hard enough to save and which in ending my marriage meant the end of my career because i couldnt be a mum to my children and run all over the country so maybe you and other higher tax bracket earners dont have a monopoly on sacrifice. My husband earns a good wage so I will have to pay for my children should they choose university - just like you and Alice. They will have to get a job to support themselves and we will work it out because we can do that.
You dont get it though do you? I am not telling YOU - Mr Gene Hunt (or is that inspector?) that you are solely responsible for everyone. I am saying we Are ALL responsible for other people, for society, for equality of opportunity and i am saying that help should be there for people less fortunate because there are people who are less fortunate not who somehow failed because they couldnt be bothered. People who didnt have the breaks, didnt have the nouse, didnt have the health to do what you are doing and what i did for however many years - earn plenty cash so we dont NEED help. We cant all make it to the top - thank goodness for that eh!!!! Someone has to empty the bins but that isnt to do with not working hard enough. And just because WE dont need help it doesnt mean that we shouldnt give it to those who DO need it.
And people used to look out for one another. Now as long as I'm all right Jack some look no further than their noses. Lets hope these people never have to find out what life is REALLY like when no matter how hard they work, how many sacrifices they make they cant find a cure for the cancer that means they have to stop work and rely on benefits, or they cant find a way to forgive their spouse when they have slapped them so hard they dont think they will ever hear properly again and they find themselves out on their ear with nothing but the clothes they stand up in and their children to look after.
You should go on Jeremy Kyle with that.
And please .. quote up the parts of my posts where I say I work harder and sacrificed more than others. My point was based on your soap box proposal that those of us who fought our way to our goals somehow owe something to those who didn't get there for whatever reason. Well Boo Hoo. Life is tough and unfair and you dont always get what we want, is that really a shock for you ??, I certainly havent got everything I want out of life, who does ??
Bottom line is that its all well and good wanting something but how are we going to pay for it ?? .. that was my point. Well that and this attitude today that if you want something and cant manage it yourself that someone else should be responsible for making sure you get it.
And you seem to think I know you. You said I "know very well" you are not working and you didnt care enough about your marriage "according to me", and what do you mean by "just like you and Alice" .. :eek: .. I live in South Wales for the record. I think you have your wires crossed in a major way.
You should go on Jeremy Kyle with that. These things happen to people Gene - they happen every day to ordinary people.
And please .. quote up the parts of my posts where I say I work harder and sacrificed more than others.
Thats how i interpreted these comments you made
My job and marriage are succesful because I work at it, damn hard. (and) ... if parents haven't worked hard enough, haven't had the ambition, haven't applied themselves or sacrificed enough to give their children the opportunities mine had then as far as I am concerned that is their fault (and )...my two girls will get no assistance because me and the wife worked our backsides off and are on good money.
The inference appeared to be that you have worked harder and made more sacrifices than others who dont earn as much as you
My point was based on your soap box proposal that those of us who fought our way to our goals somehow owe something to those who didn't get there for whatever reason. Well Boo Hoo. Life is tough and unfair and you dont always get what we want, is that really a shock for you ??, I certainly havent got everything I want out of life, who does ??
My soap box proposal is not that we owe things to people but that we owe to society in general the chance for equality of opportunity. As i said - I would prefer free higher education for all but thats not available. Therefore in this context- as an alternative to higher education being only available to those who can afford to pay I beleive that help for those who need it should be available and those of us who can pay should pay.
Bottom line is that its all well and good wanting something but how are we going to pay for it ?? .. that was my point. Well that and this attitude today that if you want something and cant manage it yourself that someone else should be responsible for making sure you get it.
We pay for it through our taxes - we cant afford free higher education for all whichis why we means test the help available to ensure that those in NEED get it. No one should be denied an education ( which is the subject we are discussing) because they cant afford it or their parents are on national minimum wage and cant support them.
And you seem to think I know you. You said I "know very well" you are not working and you didnt care enough about your marriage "according to me", and what do you mean by "just like you and Alice" .. I live in South Wales for the record. I think you have your wires crossed in a major way.
LOL Gene, I have discussed at length on here that i am a stay at home mum which is why i assumed you asked the question about my income because.... oh goodness me I havent got one!!!! :roll: You suggested your marriage is successful because you work damn hard at it and i used an illustration that suggests even when you work hard there isnt a guarantee of success. Anyone can find themselves making difficult and decisions and living on a much lower income than they planned or expected but then you seem to think thats only the people that appear on that dreadful show - jeremy Kyle!!!! And finally... you and alice..........:lol: nope lol you and alice share simply the ability to pay for your children's education - just like i do. i was suggesting nothing else.
Well said squidge...we too struggled to put our son through university and cursed the government when they changed the rules.
My arguement is that some one else paid for my education and I am quite happy to pay towards the next generation.
Education is the only equaliser that we have and any one that has the ability to benefit from it is to be encouraged to achieve their aims in life.
If we give nothing to society then we do not have the right to gripe when it turns on us.
I'm sorry but I do not understand the "I'm ok " brigade..I did live through the Thatcher years and although she did make certain reforms that we're needed it lead to a very selfish, uncaring society.
Aaldtimer
26-Apr-09, 03:24
I'm sorry but I do not understand the "I'm ok " brigade..I did live through the Thatcher years and although she did make certain reforms that we're needed it lead to a very selfish, uncaring society.[/quote]
By jings , ye hit the nail on the head there Lizz!
That's when it all started. "There's no such thing as society", to quote the Baroness, (would be monarch..."We are a grandparent")
The creator of mass unemployment, the removal of Hope from any school-leaver, a generation that couldn't find work, followed by a generation who didn't know what work was,the Destructor of the manufacturing base of the country, the Poll Tax, a paranoid hater of the working class and the Unions because her Dad lost his seat on a Council!
That's when the drugs epidemic started.
Well done Maggie, your Dad would be proud of you!
Until she was savaged by her own "Dead sheep" .(thanks Denis Healey) Geoffey Howe...and then the Men in Grey Suits stepped in.
That woman is the root of this county's woes today.
Michael Heseltine had it dead right! "That damned woman")
I'm not gonna go the road to the way she arranged a certain little war to boost her ratings.[disgust]
Alice in Blunderland
26-Apr-09, 08:21
They will have to get a job to support themselves and we will work it out because we can do that.
This is a good point.
The kids will have to possibly get a job to help put them though university and the parents will have to step in and help financially. This is because of their age and our salary there is no benefits / loans (unless you call 700 pound a year enough) on offer for them. This is my point why only in this one area are parents held accountable for their children. This should be more widespread should it not ?
This is what Im finding hard to figure out or am I missing something.
Should one of my kids at sixteen go out and say fall pregnant tomorrow no matter what my or my husbands income the system is set up to financially support them should I decide not to. That option is not there for further education its a case of laid down by the government you will support them. Which before anyone thinks otherwise I have no problem with I am just noticing what appears to be a one rule for one area one rule for another. :confused
And just because WE dont need help it doesnt mean that we shouldnt give it to those who DO need it.
True those in need should recieve help support and training if needed to help them get back to work. This is where some of our taxes come in. Fairly, it isnt right if it becomes a case of well they have lots of money they should give lots back. A fair system where a everyone pays a percentage whether slightly more than others fine but if somone who does get on well and sees the fruits of their hard labour starts to feel unfairly penalised for doing well this is wrong it send out all the wrong signals.
And people used to look out for one another. Now as long as I'm all right Jack some look no further than their noses. Lets hope these people never have to find out what life is REALLY like when no matter how hard they work, how many sacrifices they make they cant find a cure for the cancer that means they have to stop work and rely on benefits, or they cant find a way to forgive their spouse when they have slapped them so hard they dont think they will ever hear properly again and they find themselves out on their ear with nothing but the clothes they stand up in and their children to look after.
This is where we have in this country an excellent social system which is a wonderful safety net for those who need it. I am sure no-one would deny this to anyone 'There but by the grace of God go I' is a saying that has been quoted. However its when the safety net becomes a security blanket that someone doesnt want to let go or looks for straight away then thats when we have it all wrong. Like all childen the safety blanket needs to be taken away gradually to allow the child to move on and see that life is possible without it.:)
Should one of my kids at sixteen go out and say fall pregnant tomorrow no matter what my or my husbands income the system is set up to financially support them should I decide not to.
Because the government recognises that when you have a young baby and you are a teenager yourself you are ill equipped to find work and therefore NEED support.Childcare costs and availability are just the first point. never mind lack of qualifications etc. In addition parents will not be supporting one person but two and also the benefits system recognises that the vast majority of single parents are not teenage mothers but menand women who have suffered a breakdown in a relationship which has led them to being alone with their children.
True those in need should recieve help support and training if needed to help them get back to work.
The whole benfits system is geared up to do this. Help for lone parents kicks in when the child is five i think although it is available on request before that. Jobseekers allowance system is set up to ensure that people get help to return to work and the government is now targetting people on incapacity benefit to see if they need help to get back to work. Under previous governments a girl could have a child at 16 and not be spoken to about finding work until her child ws 16 and she was 32!!!!! That doesnt happen now.
This is where some of our taxes come in. A fair system where a everyone pays a percentage whether slightly more than others fine but if somone who does get on well and sees the fruits of their hard labour starts to feel unfairly penalised for doing well this is wrong it send out all the wrong signals.
Isnt that what happens though? 40% and 50% to be? No one is suggesting a return to 90% tax bills and No one has talked about NI contributions. Its interestingto note that had the government removed the upper earnings limit it might have been able to generate £8.5 billion. Its interesting to note thatwhilst someone on £20 000 pays almost 8% NI conts someone on £500 000 pays only around the 4% mark. ( This info came from hansard see http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200708/ldhansrd/text/80521w0003.htm and are figures for 2008/9 tax year. )
Like all childen the safety blanket needs to be taken away gradually to allow the child to move on and see that life is possible without it.:)
I agree however life and opportunity have to remain available to all. Therefore education has to remain accessible and people with low incomes have to be supported to ensure their children are not denied the opportunity to go to university because they or their parents cannot afford it.
cuddlepop
27-Apr-09, 08:27
Alice,the system of financing your child through further education is a mess and needs to be overhauled.
IMO education further or otherwise should be "free for all" secondary education is so why not further.I'm sure its not as simple as that but in an ideal world....:roll:
I'm sure your X is financialy responsible for his own chiildren until their 25 if they are studying Higher education.
Contact the CSA.
It is unfair but your new husbands income is taken into account and not their "real" dads when accessing your family income.:mad:
Alice in Blunderland
27-Apr-09, 17:49
It is unfair but your new husbands income is taken into account and not their "real" dads when accessing your family income.:mad:
I did wonder but this is how it is. Her stepdads income prohibits her from accesssing any funds but he is more than willing to pay.
My point is why is it only in Education this rule according to age and being responsible for them financially comes in. I am not responsible for my children should they leave school at eighteen and go out and get a council house and sign on for benefits :confused even if I could afford to set them up in their own house and provide for them I dont have to because the Government will, however because they want to live away and attend University I am to pay because I can afford it. Its stupid or is it just me :confused
cuddlepop
27-Apr-09, 19:44
. Its stupid or is it just me :confused[/quote]
No your not stupid, its government policy thats cuckoo.:lol:
Alice in Blunderland
27-Apr-09, 19:52
. Its stupid or is it just me :confused
No your not stupid, its government policy thats cuckoo.:lol:[/quote]
Thanks CP I truly thought I was going loopy..........:eek:
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