View Full Version : another case of offending muslems
I just recieved an email stating that the holocast is to be dropped from school curriculums because it offends muslems who claim it never happened. Surely this cannot be true? What about offending jews by allowing it to be forgotten? Or is ir only the muslims whose oppinion counts in this country?
teenybash
25-Mar-09, 13:24
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-445979/Teachers-drop-Holocaust-avoid-offending-Muslims (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-445979/Teachers-drop-Holocaust-avoid-offending-Muslims)
This is an absolute disgrace and Britain needs to get it's act together and realise it cannot re write history in order not to offend...fact is fact, the holocaust did happen and the story should be told.
The whole world is going mad!This is an important part of history and NEEDS to be told,if the muslims feel offended well tough! x
If you check snopes this story has been rearing its ugly head for a couple of years now and has been widely shown to be a HOAX!!!!! Schools are still teaching about the holocaust - my son did this specific subject last term!!!!
Teenybash i cant find the story on the link you posted and when doing a search on that site the only story i can find is from 2007.
Steady on, before you start bashing the Muslims - I heard a fantastic speech last night at the Rotary Speechmaking Competition in Thurso. A young lady who was a pupil at Thurso High School spoke very eloquently about what it's like to grow up in the Muslim faith in Britain in the face of a wave of Islamophobia. Her speech touched my heart - I'll not be making any sweeping statements about "the Muslims" ever again. To get respect, you must give respect. Always.
bloody daily mail....as soon i saw that pop on the screen I closed it down
I think this goverment should take a leaf out of the Australian presidents book.
teenybash
25-Mar-09, 16:19
If you check snopes this story has been rearing its ugly head for a couple of years now and has been widely shown to be a HOAX!!!!! Schools are still teaching about the holocaust - my son did this specific subject last term!!!!
Teenybash i cant find the story on the link you posted and when doing a search on that site the only story i can find is from 2007.
You are right this link does not take you to what I read.............I just copied the link....glitch somewhere.
Hopefully it is a hoax and there is no truth in history being tampered with...
You are right this link does not take you to what I read.............I just copied the link....glitch somewhere.
Hopefully it is a hoax and there is no truth in history being tampered with...
Just trying to paste the link in again, it seems to work for me.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-445979/Teachers-drop-Holocaust-avoid-offending-Muslims.html
Spoof or not then?
Gene Hunt
25-Mar-09, 17:18
The story is a Hoax, it pops up every now and then. It is just like the hoax story about the Red Arrows being banned from the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony because they are "too British" in that both are complete fiction.
percy toboggan
25-Mar-09, 18:13
The Mail today tells me that Primary school children are being taught to blog, but taught nothing about the second world war.
This seems fair enough. I did not learn anything about the second world war at school, and I had a good and rounded education.
The holocaust story is an obvious hoax. However we should not be easily swayed by headlines and soundbites which ever newspaper we read.
Make up your own mind and see through the nonsense.
That 'lass' saying how hard it was to grow up a Muslim in Caithness might try being a Christian in Lahore or some such similar Pakistani metropolis - then she might have something to complain about - if she still had her head on.
The Mail today tells me that Primary school children are being taught to blog, but taught nothing about the second world war.
This seems fair enough. I did not learn anything about the second world war at school, and I had a good and rounded education.
The holocaust story is an obvious hoax. However we should not be easily swayed by headlines and soundbites which ever newspaper we read.
Make up your own mind and see through the nonsense.
That 'lass' saying how hard it was to grow up a Muslim in Caithness might try being a Christian in Lahore or some such similar Pakistani metropolis - then she might have something to complain about - if she still had her head on.
Why is lass in inverted commas? Where does it say she grew up in Caithness? Where does it say that she was complaining? Do try improve your reading skills Mr Toboggan.
Or is ir only the muslims whose oppinion counts in this country?
At this moment in time, yes.
Why is lass in inverted commas? Where does it say she grew up in Caithness? Where does it say that she was complaining? Do try improve your reading skills Mr Toboggan.
She was a pupil at Thurso High School, so Im guessing PT assumed she was brought up in Caithness?
She was a pupil at Thurso High School, so Im guessing PT assumed she was brought up in Caithness?
Assume= making an Ass out of you and me.
Mr Toboggan assumes alot, patronizes many, diaparages more and invents facts. The individual posting said the young girl grew up in Britain. The person also said she described what it felt like growing up in Britain, not that she was complaining.
To get respect, you must give respect. Always.
Tell it to the Taleban. A woman in the Taleban run part of Pakistan, yesterday received 40 lashes because the man who delivered her bread was not a family member. Yes, youre right, to get respect, you do have to give it.
piratelassie
25-Mar-09, 18:44
Like you Percy T.. in school I cant remember being taut much about the Holocust. It was only through TV that I realised what went on, which is still unbelievable and should never be forgotten. Hope that email is a hoax..:~(
The article is dated 2.4.2007 and is a hoax.
All my boys - the older two at keiss primary were taught about WW2 and the younger one at school here in inverness was also taught about WW2. In addition last term his high school class did a project on WW2 AGAIN and this included the holocaust.
Melancholy Man
25-Mar-09, 19:02
They're coming for our women and children... woof! I'm the only one who knows the truth abo... woof!
I was at school from 1975 to 1986 and was never taught about the holocaust.What i learned about the Holocaust I learned from books and documentaries.The single biggest act of inhumanity SHOULD be taught in ALL schools to ALL faiths to show them what fanaticism does to people,maybe it is more apt in muslim schools due to the fact that they have a fanatic element?
After all how can we teach tolerance if we ignore mass genocide of a race in the attempt to wipe them out? It may make Abdul or Ahmed think twice about strapping on explosives and heading for the "infidels".
Melancholy Man
25-Mar-09, 19:10
Steady on, before you start bashing the Muslims - I heard a fantastic speech last night at the Rotary Speechmaking Competition in Thurso. A young lady who was a pupil at Thurso High School spoke very eloquently about what it's like to grow up in the Muslim faith in Britain in the face of a wave of Islamophobia. Her speech touched my heart - I'll not be making any sweeping statements about "the Muslims" ever again. To get respect, you must give respect. Always.
Not wishing to agree one jot with Toboggan, and not having heard the speech, while there will be individual cases of unpleasantness or inconvenience, being a practising Muslim in Britain confers on the individuals liberties and opportunities unparalleled in human history as well is one of the most relaxed statuses for specific minorities *and* practising Muslims in general anywhere in world now. The greatest threat to British Muslims come from the self-appointed community gatekeepers, and the likes of Beardy Williams calling for the communalisation of their affairs.
Some people should grow up and stop playing the victim. Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Hindus have all suffered under colonialism and current events. None - except maybe Armenians and Darfuris, and definitely Jews - are uniquely persecuted.
I was at school from 1975 to 1986 and was never taught about the holocaust.What i learned about the Holocaust I learned from books and documentaries.The single biggest act of inhumanity SHOULD be taught in ALL schools to ALL faiths to show them what fanaticism does to people,maybe it is more apt in muslim schools due to the fact that they have a fanatic element?
After all how can we teach tolerance if we ignore mass genocide of a race in the attempt to wipe them out? It may make Abdul or Ahmed think twice about strapping on explosives and heading for the "infidels".
Well said, Hotrod, they are taking over, how is life in Britain difficult for them? I am sure Thurso High School accomodates all types of religion so why does one have to make a speech at the rotary club telling them of the difficulties of growing up in Britain??? Its not Sheffield or Leeds or wherever. In some ways I suppose the difficulty is that there won't be a lot of fellow buddies in this part of the world , thank goodness. I for one did have WW2 at school and did study history.
The Holocaust should never be forgotten. We have several religions in Britain and all live in harmony except a few Muslims whom it is past time we stopped pussy-footing around and kicked them out. If they don't like it here, they should go to a country which practises Sharia law etc, but then they won't have such a cushy time as in Britain.
I quite agree that History should not be censored or distorted in any way, and that the following, amongst many others, should be included into every nations History books:
Why the Allies never destroyed death camps like Auschwitz when we knew of existence in 1941/42. By taking action at this time allies would have prevented millions of lives being saved.
Why the catholic church (and I am a catholic) ignored the plight of Jewish & other groups.
Why we destroyed Dresden
How America through CIA sowed the seeds for the downfall of Communism
How USA & UK invaded Iraq
The real truth behind the events at WTO on 9/11.
Hiroshima
Every country and religion has secrets which they would like to remain hidden.
changilass
26-Mar-09, 00:31
But who's versions of those events are to be taught?
DeHaviLand
26-Mar-09, 00:46
I quite agree that History should not be censored or distorted in any way, and that the following, amongst many others, should be included into every nations History books:
Why the Allies never destroyed death camps like Auschwitz when we knew of existence in 1941/42. By taking action at this time allies would have prevented millions of lives being saved.
Really? Perhaps you need to re-phrase that statement. :confused
But who's versions of those events are to be taught?
Good point.
I remember whilst doing English at school that we were given a sheet of paper with 2 different football match summaries. One from the paper covering game for home club, and one from paper from away club.
You could have been reading about two different games.
Have spent last couple of minutes thinking about this, but can offer no solutions as to who we use as arbitrator
Melancholy Man
26-Mar-09, 01:27
Why the Allies never destroyed death camps like Auschwitz when we knew of existence in 1941/42. By taking action at this time allies would have prevented millions of lives being saved.
Wansee wasn't until Janurary 1942. Satellite camps of Auschwitz were bombed in August 1944. It's a bit anachronstic to expect Biggles to have unleashed smart-missiles onto the camps.
Why we destroyed Dresden.
Because it was a centre of the military-industrial complex of the Nazis, and 'we' killed less than 10% of the figure I bet you're about the cite. You know why? Because you are almost certainly basing your argument on David Irving's utterly discredited 1963 work, the Destrcution of Berlin.
How America through CIA sowed the seeds for the downfall of Communism
And that was a bad thing?
How USA & UK invaded Iraq
What's this got to do with the Holocaust?
The real truth behind the events at WTO on 9/11.
There is not 'real' truth. Not even if you're a 9/11 Troofer.
You're going to loose this argument.
Wansee wasn't until Janurary 1942. Satellite camps of Auschwitz were bombed in August 1944. It's a bit anachronstic to expect Biggles to have unleashed smart-missiles onto the camps.
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Because it was a centre of the military-industrial complex of the Nazis, and 'we' killed less than 10% of the figure I bet you're about the cite. You know why? Because you are almost certainly basing your argument on David Irving's utterly discredited 1963 work, the Destrcution of Berlin.
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And that was a bad thing?
What's this got to do with the Holocaust?
There is not 'real' truth. Not even if you're a 9/11 Troofer.
You're going to loose this argument.
OK where do I start, your posts are not easy to read, but I will try my best.
No disputes about Wansee but if we could identify strategic sites in Dresden why could we not do the same in Poland.
I do not know death rate in Dresden, and I have not read any of David Irving's books. From what I can remember about him, he denied holocaust ever took place so in my opinion all credibility has gone.
If Communism had been allowed to flourish in the way that it was set out by Marx, and not corrupted by Stalin and certain other east European leaders then it could have worked.
This thread is not about the Holocaust on its own.
With regards to 9/11 there are a lot of unanswered questions about this disaster, such as why members of the Bin Laden family were allowed out of USA whilst other planes were grounded, what were the business links between Bush Snr and the Bin Ladens.
As I understand it, the forum is about debate and not "losing" or winning arguments.
The world is not black or white
Alice in Blunderland
26-Mar-09, 02:01
That 'lass' saying how hard it was to grow up a Muslim in Caithness might try being a Christian in Lahore or some such similar Pakistani metropolis - then she might have something to complain about - if she still had her head on.
With particular refference to this can I say my husband was brought up and educated in Pakistan. He is a muslim and attended Christian missionary schools.These educational institutions run by missionary nuns are highly popular.The Christian missionarys are highly respected in Pakistan.
My husband has, as a muslim great respect for the nuns who taught him. Whenever he visits Pakistan he goes to his school and some of the nuns are still teaching there. He gives them such a respect that we dont even see in Britian towards our teachers.
My husband was taught about the wars and the holocaust in the school in Pakistan.
He has also read other religions. He believes knowledge is power. He has respect for other religions he can do a comparative annalysis of different views.
The bottom line of all the religions is peace and love for humanity. :)
In history the bloodshed in the name of religion has its roots into the political hunger for power.
Many of the headlines and horror stories in the press are the minority of muslims who are doing things against the teachings of Islam.
The two main religions in Pakistan are Muslim and Christianity.
Christmas is a public holiday and Christians can legally buy alcohol in a muslim country. :)
buddyrich
26-Mar-09, 02:10
Good grief. What do you suggest Britain could have done in 41/42 about the camps?
Given that they were all deep in occupied territories?
If a flight of aircraft could have made it unscathed to the camps, do you suggest bombing them????
That would have been helpful. Or rather it wouldnt.
Aaldtimer
26-Mar-09, 04:01
Good grief. What do you suggest Britain could have done in 41/42 about the camps?
Given that they were all deep in occupied territories?
If a flight of aircraft could have made it unscathed to the camps, do you suggest bombing them????
That would have been helpful. Or rather it wouldnt.
Actually, I think the Jews are on record of asking Churchill to do exactly that!:(
Melancholy Man
26-Mar-09, 08:07
No, it was mostly Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler, Aaldtimer. The reports coming out were so fantastic - mass-gassings and incineration/burials!!! - that many disbelieved them. In fact, even after the camps' openings in early 1945, it wasn't until the likes of World at War in 1969 which the concept finally sank home in the Western public mind.
OK where do I start, your posts are not easy to read, but I will try my best.It's easy. You look at the letters, they form words, these form concepts in your mind. You combine these concepts to form bigger concepts called sentences. These represent coherent ideas. Got it?
No disputes about WanseeThe snag being you'd previously implicitly denied it, but let's leave that.
but if we could identify strategic sites in Dresden why could we not do the same in Poland.Think about this very carefully. You'd previously suggested Dresden was destroyed. You're now suggesting it would have represented a model to follow over Auschwitz. Which is it?
And, of course, on 24 August 1944 a satellite camp was bombed. Did you know that? Hundreds of prisoners were killed, demonstrating the inaccuracy of aerial bombing.
I do not know death rate in Dresden,Well, perhaps you should find out this elementary piece of information before claiming it was destroyed.
and I have not read any of David Irving's books. From what I can remember about him, he denied holocaust ever took place so in my opinion all credibility has gone.Not until almost 40 years after his 1963 book, during which time it had formed the basis of much of the idea of Dresden being an arbiter of brutality. Ghoulishly, children in Coventry will be far more likely to know of Dresden than vice versa, even though their city formed the basis of a German neologism meaning aerial bombing of a city.
If Communism had been allowed to flourish in the way that it was set out by Marx, and not corrupted by Stalin and certain other east European leaders then it could have worked.If Communism had been allowed to flourish in the way that it was set out by Marx, we'd all be boffing the maids and gloming money off Engels and plagerizing other people's ideas.
This thread is not about the Holocaust on its own.Yes it is. Try to learn the difference between what a discussion is about and what you wish it to be.
With regards to 9/11 there are a lot of unanswered questionsNo there are not. There are inconsistencies in the crazed reporting of the day the world fell out of our bottoms in real time and on our television screen, just as there have been in every mass-event in the history of humanity. It's called the Rashomon Effect.
about this disaster,It was not a disaster. The Boxing Day Tsunami was a disaster. Hurricane Katrina was a disaster (unless you're about to go for gold and tell us you've read reports of 5,000 prisoners with single gunshot wounds to their heads). On 11/9, a group of mass-murderers hijacked aeroplanes, butchered crew members and then flew them - with hundreds of passengers - into buildings containing thousands more humans.
such as why members of the Bin Laden family were allowed out of USA whilst other planes were grounded,Have you got a link for that? Besides, Osama was only loosely connected to a large family - over 50 siblings and half siblings - and, given what had just happened, I would have welcomed any official efforts to prevent reprisal attacks on perceived family members.
what were the business links between Bush Snr and the Bin Ladens.Which bin Ladens? Oligarchs have business links with useful political figures. There'd also be links between him and Chinese businessmen. Hey, wait a minute, d'you think he had something to do with Tianamen Square?
As I understand it, the forum is about debate and not "losing" or winning arguments. The refuge of a Troofer... you must believe some of what I say! I'm only asking questions and don't wish to be entirely right! No, you're the equivalent of string-theory... you ain't even wrong.
The world is not black or white Flat Earthist: "I think the world is flat."
Round Earthist: "I think the world is round."
Platitudinous One: "I think it's a little bit more complicated than that. I think it's oval."
percy toboggan
26-Mar-09, 09:58
Why is lass in inverted commas? Where does it say she grew up in Caithness? Where does it say that she was complaining? Do try improve your reading skills Mr Toboggan.
First of all I'll take no lessons in English from you thank you very much. Though I am willing to listen to certain other orgers if my standards nosedive. For now I think I'm holding my own.
I should however, be pleased if you could tell me how to highlight quotes from two seperate posts within the same message. Because I now have to open another little box to respond to your subsequent missive.
(look it up)
percy toboggan
26-Mar-09, 10:04
With particular refference to this can I say my husband was brought up and educated in Pakistan. He is a muslim and attended Christian missionary schools.These educational institutions run by missionary nuns are highly popular.The Christian missionarys are highly respected in Pakistan.
My husband has, as a muslim great respect for the nuns who taught him. Whenever he visits Pakistan he goes to his school and some of the nuns are still teaching there. He gives them such a respect that we dont even see in Britian towards our teachers.
My husband was taught about the wars and the holocaust in the school in Pakistan.
He has also read other religions. He believes knowledge is power. He has respect for other religions he can do a comparative annalysis of different views.
The bottom line of all the religions is peace and love for humanity. :)
In history the bloodshed in the name of religion has its roots into the political hunger for power.
Many of the headlines and horror stories in the press are the minority of muslims who are doing things against the teachings of Islam.
The two main religions in Pakistan are Muslim and Christianity.
Christmas is a public holiday and Christians can legally buy alcohol in a muslim country. :)
I have noticed from phorographs that your Husband is of Asian origin Alice and I respect that and your wish to defend the culture as best you see fit. However, are you honestly claiming that Christians are as safe i9n all parts of Pakistan as Muslims are in Britain. Of course there are sections of society and parts of the country where Christians are tolerated, perhaps even welcome. I shall neve rget close enough to find out.
As one who follows international events to a modest degree though I am of no doubt that areas of Pakistan are virtually outwith normal conventions and that open hostility toward Christians does rise above the surface.
Melancholy Man
26-Mar-09, 10:07
I'm going to cry if Toboggan says something else I agree with. The only thing which is stopping me is his exchange with _Ju_.
percy toboggan
26-Mar-09, 10:08
Not wishing to agree one jot with Toboggan......
It appears you went on to do so.
This must clearly have been a mistake and you are absolved. Although I do have a certian reputation to maintain please don't let it happen very often Mr.Man.
percy toboggan
26-Mar-09, 10:21
Assume= making an Ass out of you and me.
Mr Toboggan assumes alot, patronizes many, diaparages more and invents facts. The individual posting said the young girl grew up in Britain. The person also said she described what it felt like growing up in Britain, not that she was complaining.
You got that definition wrong Ju but it's understandable.
The subtle use of English in it's written form means it's really difficult to 'invent' facts. Concoct, perhaps. This is a risky business as concoctions can be shown up as fiction, which is I think, the opposite of fact - though I might be wrong in my assumption (a word which I use deliberately to demonstrate the meaning of 'assume'
In my attempts to spread a little light around the net I do generate heat occasionally. Often from you . You're one of my most avid followers and never fail to point out my failings.
Might I interest you in my upcoming autobiography? Or perhaps a copy of my assembled, and bound ramblings at a very attractive price?
You may 'assume' I'm taking the Mick, though as you don't think in those colloquial terms (some would consider it a racist expression) I might be wrong in my assumption. It happens.
This thread is not about us though Ju - could there ever be an 'us' :eek:
I'm assuming not, so let's get back on topic.
The kid went to school in Caithness so my assumption she grew up there is not unfathomable to a balanced poster. She was probably 'complaining' because so few younger Muslims have positive things to say about Britain at the moment.
As one who follows international events to a modest degree though I am of no doubt that areas of Pakistan are virtually outwith normal conventions and that open hostility toward Christians does rise above the surface.
Swat valley by any chance?
I quite agree that History should not be censored or distorted in any way, and that the following, amongst many others, should be included into every nations History books:
Why the Allies never destroyed death camps like Auschwitz when we knew of existence in 1941/42. By taking action at this time allies would have prevented millions of lives being saved.
Why the catholic church (and I am a catholic) ignored the plight of Jewish & other groups.
Why we destroyed Dresden
How America through CIA sowed the seeds for the downfall of Communism
How USA & UK invaded Iraq
The real truth behind the events at WTO on 9/11.
Hiroshima
Every country and religion has secrets which they would like to remain hidden.
You forgot Zionist factions like the Stern Gang competing for the honor of allying to Hitler.
You forgot that the United Jewish Appeal Funds could have bought the lives of thousands of Jews.
You forgot that the Zionists believed that having a state in Palestine was much more important than rescuing their fellow Jews from the Holocaust.
But the Zionists achieved their aims........as Greenbaum said
For the rescue of the Jews in the Diaspora, we should consolidate our excess strength and the surplus of powers that we have. When they come to us with two plans - the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe or the redemption of the land - I vote, without a second thought, for the redemption of the land. The more said about the slaughter of our people, the greater the minimization of our efforts to strengthen and promote the Hebraization of the land. If there would be a possibility today of buying packages of food with the money of the 'Keren Hayesod' (United Jewish Appeal) to send it through Lisbon, would we do such a thing? No! And once again No!"
It wasn't just the Catholics or the allies who ignored the holocaust..many of the first Israeli Government did as well.
It wasn't just the Catholics or the allies who ignored the holocaust..many of the first Israeli Government did as well.
Well seeing as we are all getting along swimmingly with religions!;) At least my protestant brethren helped out our jewish colleagues and acknowledge the holocaust!!!!![lol]
"Viva palestine-Vauxhall viva more like,clapped out and passed its sell by date"
Dresden was the headquarters and main factory of the Zeiss Optical company - they made bomb aiming equipment.
I see David Jason has offended people with a supposed "racist" joke:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7965058.stm
Mahatma Coat, wow that is so outrageous.
Some people are quicker to take offence than Red Rum ;)
Talking of horses, it is just as well that certain people were not watching the Channel 4 coverage of Cheltenham. Leading jockey Ruby Walsh's father Ted was part of the commentary team and they were discussing Ruby's easy 20 length win in the previous race. As commentators are wont to do when discussing a person's success with one of the parents, lavish praise was doled out in spades. "Oh Ruby's given this fellow a great ride here Ted"
Ted's reply was typical of a straight-talking Irishman:-
"Ah come off it now boys, this harse has bolted in here. Mahatma Ghandi's Mother could have ridden this and he'd have won today!!"
A quick faux memory of Ghandi's Mother winning a few point-to-points at Bangalore racecourse followed, and a harmless bit of fun was had by all.
Only Fools and Horses eh?
Melancholy Man
26-Mar-09, 21:57
You forgot Zionist factions like the Stern Gang competing for the honor of allying to Hitler.
The Stern Gang, a.k.a. Lehi, was one small faction out of many in the Zionist milieu (basically, any Jewish group with links in the then Mandate). You are referring to overtures from the likes of Yishak Shamir - because this is a well-trod road - *pre* Wansee when the Nazis were thought to be just another bunch of European Jew-haters.
But, of course, Lehi was small and not involved in the first government of Israel. In fact, they were so distrusted by the first government, led by David ben Gurion and the Hagenah faction, that a coup attempt was made during the 1948 war and arms/men landed at Tel Aviv port.
Whilst Arab armies were raging about, ben Gurion was required to divert troops to quell this and the main ship, the Atalena, sunk resulting in the loss of many Jewish lives on either side.
All colonial insurrections have their unpleasant characters and less than shining moments, but those of one in particular are held up as representative of the members of the subsequent independent state individually whilst others (e.g. the Mau Mau, Algeria, Cyprus) are judged as individuals and not representative.
You forgot that the United Jewish Appeal Funds could have bought the lives of thousands of Jews.They could also have tap danced with Fred Astair, but they didn't, because there's also the concept of practicality.
You forgot that the Zionists believed that having a state in Palestine was much more important than rescuing their fellow Jews from the Holocaust.Of course "the Zionists" didn't.
But the Zionists achieved their aims........as Greenbaum said {...}Greenbaum, who's he? Are you aware of the providence of that quotation?
Melancholy Man
27-Mar-09, 01:44
You forgot that the United Jewish Appeal Funds could have bought the lives of thousands of Jews.
Actually, having gone back over this remark I've found it quite unsettling. For a start, even many thousands of Jews would have represented a fraction of one percent of the total dead. Secondly, there's the notion that Jews have lots of money but they'd even be prepared to sacrifice their own to save some or accrue political power.
Finally, there's the notion that the Nazis would have actually be doing Jews a favour instead of murdering them en masse. Basic ethics would place blame on the murderers but, instead, these parties are exculpated and blame transferred to a Jewish organization (which didn't come into being until 1949).
percy toboggan
27-Mar-09, 07:46
Dresden was the headquarters and main factory of the Zeiss Optical company - they made bomb aiming equipment.
Dresden was the headquarters and main factory of the Zeiss Optical company - they made bomb aiming equipment.
I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make here.
Germany sewed the wind and reaped the whirlwind according to Churchill. No place were the effects so devastating as Dresden, I read. While I do not condemn the British for razing it to the ground it's not the most glorious chapter in our history. The utter destruction wreaked upon civillian areas cannot be justified by the presence of one factory. Wehad our own 'aiming equipment' and could have been more specific with targetting.
You say Dresden was 'not so innocent' and of course you are right. Though even as one who vaunts British action in overcoming the Nazi machine in any way possible , I do see Dresden as a black mark for Bomber Command who were 'following orders' from people so remote from the harsh realities of bombing from the air and the consequences of it on the ground. The Luftwaffe also had black marks of course but two or more wrongs cannot make a right in the mind of a thinking, rational person.
From this distance in time Dresden's destruction was an error of judgement for the lack of tactical advantage which ensued. It cannot be compared, for instance with the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs in my opinion.
I just recieved an email stating that the holocast is to be dropped from school curriculums because it offends muslems who claim it never happened. Surely this cannot be true? What about offending jews by allowing it to be forgotten? Or is ir only the muslims whose oppinion counts in this country?
I was taught about the Holocaust in Primary School with more in depth study of it in Secondary School and it's wrong for it to be dropped as a subject just because a section of society find it offensive. I find Muslims who stand up and protest openly in my country, against the British Government and British soldiers, offensive. If I was to protest against them I'd be labelled as racist.
I was taught about the Holocaust in Primary School with more in depth study of it in Secondary School and it's wrong for it to be dropped as a subject just because a section of society find it offensive. I find Muslims who stand up and protest openly in my country, against the British Government and British soldiers, offensive. If I was to protest against them I'd be labelled as racist.
Here Hear ,Jox
I may be completely wrong, but IMO the plot of this thread has become lost, the original poster was alerting us all to an e-mail doing the rounds, this has proven to be a bit of nonsense, why are we all getting so hot an bothered about a silly e-mail.
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/uk-holocaust-removal.shtml
percy toboggan
27-Mar-09, 10:36
I was taught about the Holocaust in Primary School with more in depth study of it in Secondary School and it's wrong for it to be dropped as a subject just because a section of society find it offensive. I find Muslims who stand up and protest openly in my country, against the British Government and British soldiers, offensive. If I was to protest against them I'd be labelled as racist.
I don't think you'd let that stop you...I know I wouldn't.
Those who throw the 'r' word about willy-willy know nilly.
Anyway, Islam is not a racial group.
Melancholy Man
27-Mar-09, 11:38
Like all myths, this has a kernal of truth. It originates from the decision starting in 2001 by the Muslim Council of Britain to boycott Holocaust Memorial Day; not because, as it subsequently claimed, because of Israel or Kashmir, but because of the original inclusion of the 'pink' and Armenian genocides. But, no, there never were any moves to exclude it from schools.
Incidentally, the Deputy Chairman (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/26/hazelblears-islam?commentpage=4&commentposted=1) of the Council has been in the news recently. Silly billy.
Gene Hunt
27-Mar-09, 12:56
I was taught about the Holocaust in Primary School with more in depth study of it in Secondary School and it's wrong for it to be dropped as a subject just because a section of society find it offensive. I find Muslims who stand up and protest openly in my country, against the British Government and British soldiers, offensive. If I was to protest against them I'd be labelled as racist.
Or a lot worse.
I worked in a Muslim country for almost a year in a training role. I was treated as and often called an "infidel" and an "unbeliever" and had to adhere to local customs that even the locals flouted, their rules didnt apply to them apparently. Our training was blatantly ignored and to cap it all our trainees blamed us for the fact that they knew nothing. During my time there I witnessed anti-israeli protests with placards bearing slogans that I wont repeat here. I flipped out one night and beat the living daylights out of two Muslims who had been taunting me for weeks, they spat in my face as I walked into a room and I took issue in a physical manner. I was deported a few days later after a very pleasant few days in jail.
I don't bear Muslims any ill will though, at the end of the day there are idiots everywhere. But I get hacked off at the victim mentality of some Muslims in Britian, some of them will turn up at the opening of an envelope if it means they can be "outraged" and call people racist etc etc, The simple fact is that if Muslims had the same religious and personal restrictions placed on them here and were treated the same way in Britian that non Muslims are treated in Muslim countries they would have a lot more to complain about.
The story in the first post is a hoax though.
Percy, the point I made about Zeiss is that Dresden was not the innocent little city making pretty porcelain figurines - Dresden was a major communiciations centre for the Reich defences. This is a fact that gets overlooked by breast-beating amateur historians.
Frederick Taylor has the best book on the subject and is well worth a read.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,607524,00.html
Melancholy Man
27-Mar-09, 16:43
Dresden represented as viable a target as Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and resulted in as little as 10% of their combined death tolls. The fact that Europeans and Japanese died respectively does not change this. Although it probably did affect the rationale of high command who'd have been far more willing to blocade the Japanese Home Islands and shell them from the sea, potentially resulting in many more deaths, than they would have been Western Europe.
Dresden represented as viable a target as Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and resulted in as little as 10% of their combined death tolls. The fact that Europeans and Japanese died respectively does not change this. Although it probably did affect the rationale of high command who'd have been far more willing to blocade the Japanese Home Islands and shell them from the sea, potentially resulting in many more deaths, than they would have been Western Europe.
Viable target?. We are talking about the deaths of over 250,000 people!
If any location could be called a justifiable target, it should have been the death camps
Viable target?. We are talking about the deaths of over 250,000 people!
If any location could be called a justifiable target, it should have been the death camps
Why kill innocent prisoners?
Viable target?. We are talking about the deaths of over 250,000 people!
If any location could be called a justifiable target, it should have been the death camps
If they targetted the camps then they would have been targetting the very people they wished to protect. How would that have helped?
If they targetted the camps then they would have been targetting the very people they wished to protect. How would that have helped?
Yes, bombing camps would have killed prisoners but in the long run it would have saved more lives. That is assuming that bombing took place as soon as Allies had evidence that these were no ordinary POW camps.
A few detractors will add that we did not have the accuracy to accomplish this but, most camps were away from areas of large populations
Yes, bombing camps would have killed prisoners but in the long run it would have saved more lives. That is assuming that bombing took place as soon as Allies had evidence that these were no ordinary POW camps.
A few detractors will add that we did not have the accuracy to accomplish this but, most camps were away from areas of large populations
Why would the Allies, do Hitlers dirty work, by bombing Jews?
Percy, the point I made about Zeiss is that Dresden was not the innocent little city making pretty porcelain figurines - Dresden was a major communiciations centre for the Reich defences. This is a fact that gets overlooked by breast-beating amateur historians.
Frederick Taylor has the best book on the subject and is well worth a read.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,607524,00.html
I have heard the same. Scientific instruments, radios and compasses etc were the sort of goods made in dresden, all vital components for making war.
Aaldtimer
28-Mar-09, 04:13
Why would the Allies, do Hitlers dirty work, by bombing Jews?
A bit of lateral thinking, by bombing the gas chambers, they would have removed the Nazi capabilty to kill the Jews.
Initial casualties would have been the sacrifice to save the many.
Melancholy Man
28-Mar-09, 14:05
Viable target?. We are talking about the deaths of over 250,000 people!Go back and read what I wrote, paying especial attention to the use of the word "as".
Yes, bombing camps would have killed prisoners but in the long run it would have saved more lives.The double-standard of this is, of course, that Harray would have been prepared to have killed a great many Jewish and other prisoners (see the 24 August 1944 bombing of an Auschwitz satellite camp), but gets squeamish at the thought of German and Japanese civilians, who were part of the societies and state killing programmes, dying.
Certainly Hiroshima and Nagasaki, by foreshortening the war in the Pacific, saved many *millions* of lives.
That is assuming that bombing took place as soon as Allies had evidence that these were no ordinary POW camps.January 1945?
A few detractors will add that we did not have the accuracy to accomplish this but,No, anyone who's read any academic history on the subject.
most camps were away from areas of large populationsUm... there were large populations inside them.
January 1945?
No, anyone who's read any academic history on the subject.
Can you give us some references?
Thanks.
Melancholy Man
28-Mar-09, 14:26
January 1945 was when Auschwitz was opened. As for references, I can cite whole books, but it is Garray who has made specific allegations so it his responsibility to reference.
January 1945 was when Auschwitz was opened. As for references, I can cite whole books, but it is Garray who has made specific allegations so it his responsibility to reference.
Opened in 1945? I think you have the date seriously wrong my friend as the following suggests that Allies knew about camp's role in Final Solution in 1940:
"..
For more details on this topic, see Auschwitz bombing debate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Birkenau25August1944.jpg/220px-Birkenau25August1944.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Birkenau25August1944.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Birkenau25August1944.jpg)
Picture of Birkenau taken by an American surveillance plane, 25 Aug. 1944.
Information regarding Auschwitz was available to the Allies during years 1940–1943 by accurate and frequent reports of Polish Army Captain Witold Pilecki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki). Pilecki was the only known person to volunteer[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#cite_note-22) to be imprisoned at Auschwitz concentration camp, spending 945 days at Auschwitz not only actively gathering evidence of genocide and supplying it to the British in London by Polish resistance movement but also organizing resistance structures at the camp.
His first report was smuggled outside in November 1940. He eventually escaped on April 27, 1943, but even his personal report of mass killings was dismissed as exaggeration by the Allies, as were his previous ones.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#cite_note-ac-23) This changed with receipt of the very detailed report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrba-Wetzler_report) of two prisoners, Rudolf Vrba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vrba) and Alfred Wetzler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Wetzler) who escaped on April 7, 1944 which finally convinced most Allied leaders of the truth about Auschwitz in the middle of 1944. [25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#cite_note-24)
Detailed air reconnaissance photographs of the camp were taken accidentally during 1944 by aircraft seeking to photograph nearby military-industrial targets, but no effort was made to analyze them. In fact, it was not until the 1970s that these photographs of Auschwitz were looked at carefully.[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#cite_note-25)
Starting with a plea from the Slovakian rabbi Weissmandl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Michael_Dov_Weissmandl) in May 1944, there was a growing campaign to persuade the Allies to bomb Auschwitz or the railway lines leading to it. At one point Winston Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill) ordered that such a plan be prepared, but he was told that bombing the camp would most likely kill prisoners without disrupting the killing operation, and that bombing the railway lines was not technically feasible.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Later several nearby military targets were bombed. One bomb accidentally fell into the camp and killed some prisoners. The debate over what could have been done, or what should have been attempted even if success was unlikely, has continued heatedly ever since.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Allies.27_knowledge_o f_the_camp)
Yoda the flump
28-Mar-09, 18:25
OMG, not this chestnut again.
Desden, ok well 250,000 casualties, you certainly have been reading Irvine - the accepted figure is between 25,000 and 40,000 although most experts agree that it is probably at the lower end of the scale. The 250,000 figure comes from a memo that was later found to have been altered by adding an extra '0'.
As for a military target - at that point in the war probably not, it was not a centre of heavy industry like Silesia or the Ruhr and the Soviets were only 30miles away anyway (not that they were known for sledgehammer tactics).
The firestorm was down mainly to the weather, ok the RAF did use a mix of bombs that was intentionally designed to cause fires but they used this quite regularly, Dresden was bombed very lightly in comparison to most other German cities.
As for the death camps, you have to remember that they were all in Eastern Europe and that fully laden bombers are a very easy target and the Allies did not have complete control of the skies. Range was also a problem - the Soviets were not exactly happy with western aircraft landing in there territory and until mid 1944 they were just as far away as the west were. Added to that, the gas chambers were not that difficult to construct and would have been erected again in quick order.
Yoda the flump
28-Mar-09, 18:50
Opened in 1945? I think you have the date seriously wrong my friend as the following suggests that Allies knew about camp's role in Final Solution in 1940:
Wrong end of the stick my friend, possibly though it should say liberated instead of opened.
Whilst indeed Aushwitz existed in 1940 the Final solution was only agreed in July 1941 at Wannsee and Aushwitz Birkenau did not start construction until October 1941.
Melancholy Man
28-Mar-09, 18:57
It is arrant nonsense to compare those who fought the Nazis or the Shintoists to those racist, right-wing monsters, but you just have.
Opened in 1945? I think you have the date seriously wrong my friend as the following suggests that Allies knew about camp's role in Final Solution in 1940:
The term Final Solution was pushed by the Wannsee Conference which took place on 20 January 1942. How many times does this have to be explained to you? At this point in time, there were just a few tens of thousands present, and those murdered had been predominately Soviet prisoners.
When you quoted 250,000, I thought you were referring to the combined totals of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden because I had already explained to you that the Dresden dead was about 10% of that. Do you read other individuals' posts?
Now it appears you believe the discredited David Irving line, in which case you have lost all credibility.
Contradicting yourself my chum.
What is to be 1945 1942 when Aushwicz started.
As mentioned before I have not read David Irving, the source of my info is taken from Wiki
Yoda the flump
28-Mar-09, 19:48
Harray, please read this:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,581992,00.html
Any reason as to why this is incorrect?
Please re read my post. 250,000 was combined figure for Dresden/Hiroshima and Nagasaki. but does it really matter whether 1000 10000 or 100 million died?
By saying that Dresden was "viable" target, you are also saying that London, Coventry and other UK cities that suffered war damage were legitimate targets for German bombing because they contributed to war effort.
Yoda the flump
29-Mar-09, 16:01
Please re read my post. 250,000 was combined figure for Dresden/Hiroshima and Nagasaki. but does it really matter whether 1000 10000 or 100 million died?
By saying that Dresden was "viable" target, you are also saying that London, Coventry and other UK cities that suffered war damage were legitimate targets for German bombing because they contributed to war effort.
In the terms of that war regretably yes.
The germans foolishly began this type of terror bombing and Bomber command perfected it. The German civilians paid a lot higher price that the British ever did for this tactic
Yes, we certainly did perfect mass bombing, ask any remaining citizens of aforementioned locations. You can also add Iraq, Afghanistan and any other country who the Western world has interfered with.
Puzzles me why, we can place a spacecraft on the moon (over 250,000 miles away) with pinpoint accuracy, yet we can not find a system that enables bomber planes pilots to tell the difference between a hospital, school, private house or indeed their own men from a terrorist hideout.
Where is the West when there is conflict, and cries for help are ignored
i.e. Bosnia, Sudan etc.
Puzzles me why, we can place a spacecraft on the moon (over 250,000 miles away) with pinpoint accuracy, yet we can not find a system that enables bomber planes pilots to tell the difference between a hospital, school, private house or indeed their own men from a terrorist hideout.
Because Harray, Hamas and the Taliban use hospitals , schools & private houses to hide in [disgust]
Yoda the flump
29-Mar-09, 21:06
Yes, we certainly did perfect mass bombing, ask any remaining citizens of aforementioned locations. You can also add Iraq, Afghanistan and any other country who the Western world has interfered with.
Puzzles me why, we can place a spacecraft on the moon (over 250,000 miles away) with pinpoint accuracy, yet we can not find a system that enables bomber planes pilots to tell the difference between a hospital, school, private house or indeed their own men from a terrorist hideout.
Where is the West when there is conflict, and cries for help are ignored
i.e. Bosnia, Sudan etc.
And the point of this post is? You are damned if you do and damned if you don't!
The Iraqi Kurds and Marsh Arabs were ruthlessly persecuted by Saddam and now? how about women under the Talaban? But of course we are interfering there are we not? No cries for help there then.
Yes, we helped in Bosnia eventually but who's to say what would of happened if we had gone in earlier? Interfering again? How welcome do you think NATO would really be in Sudan?
Because Harray, Hamas and the Taliban use hospitals , schools & private houses to hide in [disgust]
And of course the West do not use such underhand tactics?
"..The Iraqi Kurds and Marsh Arabs were ruthlessly persecuted by Saddam and now? how about women under the Talaban? But of course we are interfering there are we not? No cries for help there then..."
Well known and documented fact that more people die in Iraq today than ever under butcher Hussein.
It is not just the Taleban that deny people basic human rights.
Try being a non-white muslim in any major UK city, and you will soon see that the civility and respect that white christians expect, does not extend to you.
DeHaviLand
29-Mar-09, 23:37
Try being a non-white muslim in any major UK city, and you will soon see that the civility and respect that white christians expect, does not extend to you.
So, are we to believe that you've tried this?
Yoda the flump
30-Mar-09, 00:00
And of course the West do not use such underhand tactics?
"..The Iraqi Kurds and Marsh Arabs were ruthlessly persecuted by Saddam and now? how about women under the Talaban? But of course we are interfering there are we not? No cries for help there then..."
Well known and documented fact that more people die in Iraq today than ever under butcher Hussein.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't! I am sure if Saddam was still in control of Iraq and still gassing minorities you would be complaining.
It is not just the Taleban that deny people basic human rights.
Try being a non-white muslim in any major UK city, and you will soon see that the civility and respect that white christians expect, does not extend to you.
Hardly a fair comparison one would suggest. Several months old I give you, but the point is made fairly well here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7681495.stm and here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7416536.stm with regard to human rights in some countries.
Whilst there is certainly a problem in inner cities i would venture that it is not state sponsored as above but due to unfair prejudice on both sides.
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