View Full Version : Geert Wilders - in or out ?
percy toboggan
12-Feb-09, 19:20
This Dutch M.P. should have been allowed to present his film to the House of Lords today
percy toboggan
12-Feb-09, 19:31
This Dutch M.P. should have been allowed to present his film to the House of Lords today
Judge for yourself ? - it's called FITNA...and it's available on youtube.
(Fitna means strife in Arabic)
I would let him in but his propeganda is no danger to me.
percy toboggan
12-Feb-09, 19:48
I would let him in but his propeganda is no danger to me.
It's a great pity the 10.000 muslims about to be 'mobilised' by Lord Ahmed can now stand down.
They might take time to consider why they do not direct their ire towards their fellow religionists who DO use verses in the Koran to motivate acts of terror.
Brown and his pathetic bunch of cohorts have proved themselves utterly gutless. I just hope this is yet another nail in the coffin of this uselesss government.
How many 'preachers of hate' have they allowed to remain here for years and years with impunity? How many times are we to appease the Islamic lobby?...lie the Muslim blome on the BBC this morning who tells us we are not allowed to criticise the 'koran' or the Muslim religion. Well I'm sorry mate but yer in Britain.
If this Flying Dutchman had been coming here to tell us to 'burn the Bible' there would not have been an iota of fuss.
Where have you been Percy T ?. In this once Great country of ours it is now de rigeur to bend over backwards for Islam ( no hidden meaning there) but God forbid letting some slightly nutty Cheesehead over the Border.
So far as i know he was going to show his movie in the Upper House of Parasites and then wend his weary way back to Holland without going near the Mosque.
Of course he should be let in the country. Its the thousands of others that come every year that should be sent straight back.
percy toboggan
12-Feb-09, 20:45
I've just watch as much of the film as I can stomach. Seven minutes.
There is absolutely no doubt that Islam needs some kind of period of enlightenment to bring that 8th century manual up to date.
I would not be surprised in the coming weeks to read of Wilders murder..after all Van Gogh went the same way....butchered in the street.
'Throats cut and skulls shattered'...so went one of the milder passages in the film...they were talking jihad. I wonder how many who vote no will bother to watch...or comment upon what they see.
Percy T - I think you are flogging a dead horse/adulterer/thief etc etc with this one. The majority of the oh so politically correct sheeple on this forum do not want to voice an opinion on anything that smells of intolerance or even racism.
Just seen it and I genuinely fear for my kids. Is it any wonder there are so many fanatics/extremists when they are being brainwashed at the age of 3.:mad::mad::mad:
The majority of the oh so politically correct sheeple on this forum do not want to voice an opinion on anything that smells of intolerance or even racism.
Whats more racist, me not wanting that in the UK or the filth and incitement spewing from their mouths?
If you havent seen it I strongly recommend you do before you accuse me of being racist.
Yes yes and yes again!
Can we have this guy running our country please?, with Percy as deputy :D
I think the majority of Muslims are peaceful and the Koran talks of peace but Islam becomes a dangerous religion when passages of the Koran are taken out of context by those spreading the word of Allah. The followers of Islam, who don't believe in democracy and don't think for themselves, let the Imams think for them and blindly follow 'the word'. The word 'Jihad', when used in the Koran, actually means 'Holy struggle', not 'Holy war' but it's been turned about to suit the agenda of anti-westerners, including being used by the western media to suit their news reports.
History has shown of the death and destruction under so many dictators, and democratic Governments the world over have said we mustn't let it happen again, yet it is happening again, under Mugabe. That it can happen under a religion, with close on 2 billion followers worldwide, is something NO Government should ever ignore. The most dangerous side of Islam is the continued appeasement by democracies.
I noticed that the second part of the film lasted for 9 mins 11 secs=9:11, was that meant a subliminal message?
If this Flying Dutchman had been coming here to tell us to 'burn the Bible' there would not have been an iota of fuss.
I don't know about that, I could visualise several "stiff" letters to the Daily Mail and a front page story headlined "Garden of Edam Disgrace"
In an interview with Fox News he calls Islam a retarded religion, can't say i disagree with him, but i feel that way about all religion, his movie is actually pretty tame, i have seen much more shocking footage of acts commited in the name of Allah, one thing that really bugs me is the use of the word 'minority' when describing the fanatical side of Islam, it may not be a 'majority' but it's certainly a hell of a lot more than a 'minority'.
Whats more racist, me not wanting that in the UK or the filth and incitement spewing from their mouths?
If you havent seen it I strongly recommend you do before you accuse me of being racist.
??. Where/how/when have I accused you or anyone else of being racist ???
I didnt mean you. That was for the benefit of anybody who was reading my post and thinking that about me who havent seen the film.;)
I think the majority of Muslims are peaceful and the Koran talks of peace but Islam becomes a dangerous religion when passages of the Koran are taken out of context by those spreading the word of Allah.
I know where youre coming from but what part of killing the non believers can be taken out of context or misinterpretated. Seems pretty clear to me.
It's a great pity the 10.000 muslims about to be 'mobilised' by Lord Ahmed can now stand down.
They might take time to consider why they do not direct their ire towards their fellow religionists who DO use verses in the Koran to motivate acts of terror.
Brown and his pathetic bunch of cohorts have proved themselves utterly gutless. I just hope this is yet another nail in the coffin of this uselesss government.
How many 'preachers of hate' have they allowed to remain here for years and years with impunity? How many times are we to appease the Islamic lobby?...lie the Muslim blome on the BBC this morning who tells us we are not allowed to criticise the 'koran' or the Muslim religion. Well I'm sorry mate but yer in Britain.
If this Flying Dutchman had been coming here to tell us to 'burn the Bible' there would not have been an iota of fuss.
Must admit I have not seen the film, but I totally agree with what you have said.
And then someone gets offended by the word Golliwog..........Jeeez!:confused
I know where youre coming from but what part of killing the non believers can be taken out of context or misinterpretated. Seems pretty clear to me.
The Imams have taken the passages in the Koran out of context to mean 'kill non-believers'. I watched a program about the Koran and according to it nowhere in the Koran does it say to kill non-muslims.
This Dutch M.P. should have been allowed to present his film to the House of Lords today
Percy, your original post and your poll question don't quite equate.
I've not voted nor will I expand on your original post.
Suffice it to say that us Caithness folks are safe for now. We can close the gates on the Ord. ;)
brokencross
13-Feb-09, 07:37
As per the BBC NOT showing the Gaza charity appeal, this chap has got more press inches and TV time out of his NON visit. AND the Lords watched the film anyway.
The Home Secretary made a typically knee-jerk overreaction and has succeeded in doing exactly the opposite of what it intended. They, and that is all Governments, never learn. Somebody wishes to visit here, for probably a matter of a few hours, to say something the Government objects to. They immediately ban him.
What makes it worse is that he is an elected representative in another EU Parliament and as a result of that they have succeeded in dragging the Dutch Government into the issue because they are virtually obliged to support the man because he was democratically elected. This is not a Government giving support to a member of it’s own party because he is a member of their opposition and they themselves disagree with his ideas.
Had our Government simply allowed him to come the whole matter would probably have passed virtually uncommented on and his ideas unmentioned. The film he has made was shown in the House of Lords to a massive audience of 30.
The film, which I doubt very few of us had even heard of, is on the web, is freely available and has now, in effect, been widely advertised throughout almost all the press and media.
By trying to silence him in the manner they have the Government have, by their actions, done more to encouraged the very fear and suspicions about Islam than Wilders could ever have done in coming here, talking to a virtually empty room and then going away.
Alice in Blunderland
13-Feb-09, 10:31
Of course he should be let in the country. Its the thousands of others that come every year that should be sent straight back.
Thats a bit of a wide sweeping statement. Would you like to elaborate a little please. :)
This is a country of free speech, we fought for this right so should be allowed to use it. I don't agree with what he has to say but I also feel that he should be allowed to express HIS opinions.
Relgion causes so many problems for the PC brigade these days....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4590870/Primary-school-receptionist-facing-sack-after-daughter-talks-about-Jesus-to-classmate.html
Thats a bit of a wide sweeping statement. Would you like to elaborate a little please. :)
How about "asylum" seekers whove passed through several safe countries
before landing here.
The Imams have taken the passages in the Koran out of context to mean 'kill non-believers'. I watched a program about the Koran and according to it nowhere in the Koran does it say to kill non-muslims.
The non believers are the non muslims.
Quran Surah 8 Verse 60
Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering. To strike Terror. To trike terror into the hearts of allah and your enemies.
Surah 4 Verse 56
Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire. Whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them, that they may feel the punishment verily. allah is sublime and wise.
Surah 47 Verse 4
Therefore when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them bind a bond firmly on them.
Surah 4 Verse 89
They that wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they, so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of allah. But if they turn renegades, sieze them and kill them wherever ye find them. And take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
Surah 8 Verse 39
Fight them until there is no dissention and the religion is entirely allahs.
What parts of these can be taken out of context or misinterpreted.
Somehow the religion of peace has just blown its cover.
I watched the video too and recognise the passages you quote that were 'translated' into English, but unfortunately I can't read Cyrillic so I'm going under the assumption that the Imam was putting his own spin on the words. Also, a great majority of Muslims have had little or no schooling and therefore can't read, so take the word of the Imam. Does anyone know whether the literal translation of the Koran is what was shown on the video?
I watched the video too and recognise the passages you quote that were 'translated' into English, but unfortunately I can't read Cyrillic so I'm going under the assumption that the Imam was putting his own spin on the words. Also, a great majority of Muslims have had little or no schooling and therefore can't read, so take the word of the Imam. Does anyone know whether the literal translation of the Koran is what was shown on the video?
TBH I dont know but I suspect Geert Wilders would have done his research on the subject or else he would have been found out and to my knowledge nobody has refuted what the passages in the film have been translated to. I suspect that if they wre translated wrongly we would of heard of it by now.
Alice in Blunderland
13-Feb-09, 18:57
The non believers are the non muslims.
Quran Surah 8 Verse 60
Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering. To strike Terror. To trike terror into the hearts of allah and your enemies.
I believe there is a bit more to this...........the Koran goes on to explain that you should be ready to fight for justice but you must always be ready for peace. 'There is no merit in fighting for its own sake rather it is a sin'. Taken from the footnote after surah 61.
Surah 4 Verse 56
Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire. Whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them, that they may feel the punishment verily. allah is sublime and wise..
This verse has been taken out of context if you read the Koran this verse is talking about the nonbelievers and the fire of hell they will be roasted in eventually. I believe that I could quote you similar from the bible about the people who will be cast into the fires of Hell.
Surah 47 Verse 4
Therefore when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them bind a bond firmly on them.
Again a small bit taken from a larger passage with a footnote to explain................the disbelievers who follow falsehoods have to be smited by their necks when they are faced in the battlefield.When they are crushed or subdued completely,they have to be bound tight. At the end of the war they can either be freed by grace or exchanged for ransom. That is the command of Allah.
Surah 4 Verse 89
They that wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they, so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of allah. But if they turn renegades, sieze them and kill them wherever ye find them. And take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
This paragraph is described in the footnote which tells you that the people being discussed are disbelievers located outside Medina. These people stayed in Makka and collaberated with the idolaters of Quarish. These people were enemies of Islam and fought ruthlessly against them so it was necessary to fight them back. The footnote goes on to explain the story in more detail.
Surah 8 Verse 39
Fight them until there is no dissention and the religion is entirely allahs.
What parts of these can be taken out of context or misinterpreted.
Somehow the religion of peace has just blown its cover.
To expand on this bit.... If they cease then assuredly Allah is seer of what they do. Then know that Allah is your befriender. The best to befriend and the best to help.
I could also quote many passages in the Bible which are equally bloodthirsty and brutal followed by nice loving notes.
I am not a muslim I was raised a Christian however when left down to us mere mortals I feel we all interperate things differently and this is where the troubles begin. :)
Alice in Blunderland
13-Feb-09, 19:06
Does anyone know whether the literal translation of the Koran is what was shown on the video?
I will let you know later if you like. I havent had a chance to watch it with hubby yet. :)
Alice in Blunderland
13-Feb-09, 20:16
Judge for yourself ? - it's called FITNA...and it's available on youtube.
(Fitna means strife in Arabic)
FITNA ia an Arabic word and the best translation that I have been given is that its a negative word which loosely means stirrer.
It was explained to me as ....... If I and my sister had a mutual friend and this person went between us causing ill feeling and gossiping from one to another negatively then this would be described as FITNA.
Arabic is a very difficult language to translate into any other language. :confused
Some words cannot be translated and the nearest sounding or like word will be used which then causes translations to become incorrect as its down to individual interpretation. :)
Thanks for your help Alice. As you and Baz will have noted, I'm far from knowledgable on Islamic beliefs I was just using my understanding of Islam from a programme I watched about 5 years ago, presented by Prince Naseem Hamed, explaining the Koran and Muslim way of life.
I'm as worried as everyone else about the threats from terrorism, but don't dwell on it. If we all took it to heart then nobody would venture out of doors.
percy toboggan
13-Feb-09, 21:29
I'm not too fussed about the films title, or whether 'strife' is a literal translation or not. What intrigues me more Alice is your point about 'bloodthirsty references' in the Bible. I guess there are - although I'm not very familiar with the book myself. I don't hea rof too many Christian putting these sentiments into practice these days. Perhaps a few centuries ago they were and I know Christians were as savage as the next bunch of book bashing barbarians. Things have moved on though and almost all Christians seem to have moved with the times - I'm speaking of Western cultures...I expect there are some enclaves in the third world where people still kill in the name of Christianity...and please nobody cite Northern Ireland as an example.
I read six different newspapers today from the Guardian to the Mail and the Wilders story didn't merit as much coverage as I'd expected. Maybe we're all resigned.
The Telegaph gave it the most space and reckoned it's another nail in the coffin of free speech. I agree with them but it's evoked little interest on here looking at the poll count.
I don't think the situation wasn't dealt with appropriately whatsoever and
the consequent publicity that he and his film have recieved, far outweighs anything he could have achieved by the screening of his movie to 30 parliamentarians.
The movie is surely not a true reflection on Islam and will breed nothing but hatred for Muslims in general which was it's only purpose in my opinion.
Anyway prefer an Iain Banks or a Gerald Seymour meself. ;)
Geert Wilders, out, out, out!
This dude really cracks me up, he complains there's no freedom of speech in this country but he wants to ban a whole religion and the holy book it's based on in the Netherlands. :lol:
Keep him out and all others like him. Boot out a few of our own slimeballs while we're at it. Go Miliband go!
He was good in Willy Wonka mind. :cool:
Hmm difficult one this. I would have allowed him in and let him spew his nasty talk but refuse to allow it to be broadcast. That way those who really want to hear him can go hear him but the rest of us dont have to.
All fanatics of any type are worrying and dangerous but thankfully they are not standing on every street corner.
I've not checked myself but the film was being talked about on the radio earlier. Somebody was saying that they had had great difficulty actually finding it. After they had waded through all the links to newspaper reports and comments in blogs they found that it was mixed in with countless spoofs of it where people had replaced the bits from the Koran with passages from various other Holy Books from all over the world giving exactly the same impression.
Personally I am not particularly interested in what the exact wording in the Koran or any other Holy Book actually is. What my opinion of the meaning of certain passages in the Koran is hardly matters, unless I wish to make use of them as a method of justifying something, or not as the case may be.
My interpretation, other than as part of a discussion, is largely irrelevant. The problem is caused by the extremists, and every belief system has them, who twist and misuse such things to incite others to commit acts of violence.
The problem arises when people are indoctrinated by those who place their own very narrow twisted interpretation on certain passages and never hear any other interpretation. That, if anything, is why there should be a lot more open discussion about such matters.
I would have let him have his rant but have made certain that there were moderate, sensible people there, both Christian and Muslim, to calmly rip his extremism to shreds. I would certainly have ensured there were no rabble-rousers there who he could point to as justification for his views.
Calm, cold, clinical destruction of the claims of such fanatics are the way to disarm them. Simply trying to silence them can give the impression that they may just be right and that those in power have no answer to their refute their claims and that really is a dangerous idea to allow.
The fact that there are people here who can say what the Koran really says on some matters, or at least put them in a more accutate context, as opposed to what we may have been previously told is quite enlightening. That is far better than a long brooding silence where nothing is learned by anybody.
I watched Fitna the other night and there is nothing in it that we haven't already watched or know about. As for the Koran, it is just like the Bible and there is enough in them both to have them removed off the shelves of any decent children's bookshop.
I'm even more confused about the reason behind the ban now. I was sitting playing computers yesterday and listening to Radio 4. (The TV's in the other room and I was bored)
There was a 30 minute programme where Wilders was interviewed by, if I recall correctly, David Dimbleby, about the film and his views.
It was only when it had finished that I discovered that it was actually first broadcast during last year.
There was nothing I came across to indicate that he was being interviewed anywhere other than here in Britain, though I may be wrong on that.
Certainly I don't recall any great fuss about the original broadcast being put out or of him having been here. Either nobody noticed or nobody had the slightest interest in his presence.
Why they should suddenly have decided to ban him this time, because nothing seems to have dramatically changed in his views, I cannot imagine.
All that banning him seems to have done is to give both him and his views far more prominence than they deserve or would have got had he been allowed to come in which case his presence would probably not have even been commented on.
Had that been the case I doubt the BBC would have given a thought to repeating his interview.
percy toboggan
21-Feb-09, 16:51
All fanatics of any type are worrying and dangerous but thankfully they are not standing on every street corner.
Well, this is as astute an observation as you have made Squidge. I was in Fife all of last week and I didn't see a single fanatic standing on street (or Wynd) corners or elsewhere. Perhaps they were hiding.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.