View Full Version : Thatcher in a jam over Golliwog jibe...
percy toboggan
05-Feb-09, 18:44
It's getting a bit like the old East Germany here.
Carol Thatcher, of whom I'm not particularly enamoured did, admittedly put her foot in it when she described a tennis player as a 'golliwog' I have deduced who she meant though, but her choice of language was unwise.
Especially when surrounded by BBC ponces and the 'most diverse of production crews' also Adrian Chiles the bloke who has walked out on his children and that rotund dollop Jo Brand, who resembles the back end of a bus more and more with every t.v. appearance.
Ms.Thatcher has now been axed from he r'roving reporter role' on the 'One Show' I'm far from outraged, in fact were the Beeb to offer me the job in her stead I'd sing from the rooftops but it's all getting a trifle silly now.
I used to collect the Robertson jam badges - the factory is not far away from me. My daughter had a golliwog doll I recall. I never ever thought of black people when fondling my badges (sorry), and I'm sure little un's stuffed toy did not give her an innate contempt for black folk.
Still some people are offended and we cannot have that.
Compare the case of Jonathan Ross - his remarks were AIRED ! Apparently though he said he was sorry - so that's allright then int'it.
I dunno if your beginning to wear me down Percy or am just getting old but I kinda agree with you. Not completyely though and i havnt got the time at the moment to tell you the bits I dont agree with.
BTW The grandparents should have gotten the kids so I suspect there was more to that story than the Daily Mail cared to talk about and org tried to imagine.
butterfly
05-Feb-09, 19:55
carol thatcher really put her big foot in it with that remark,it serves her right that she lost her job as a roving reporter.i have never heard anyone use that word in years.i can well understand the reaction of her bosses,she made a complete fool of herself.i wonder what her mother thinks of it all.as for jonathon ross,cant stand the man.he never lets his guests on his show finish a sentence,always butting in,showing off.:mad:
This PC correctness is getting out of hand altogether. My Dad used to say that to the pure all things were pure. Surely the same applies to this type of remark! Only the prejudiced see prejudice. Only the racist sees racism. If no harm is intended, then none should be taken. Can we British have a go at those who refer to us as Brits?
i loved my GOLLIWOG...and thinks the world has gone doolally with all this political correcness.good on you ,carol ,for not apologising.[disgust]
Quick someone - even ebays at it!!!
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/items/_W0QQ_nkwZgolliwogQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZR40QQ_mdoZ
carol thatcher really put her big foot in it with that remark,it serves her right that she lost her job as a roving reporter.i have never heard anyone use that word in years.i can well understand the reaction of her bosses,she made a complete fool of herself.i wonder what her mother thinks of it all.as for jonathon ross,cant stand the man.he never lets his guests on his show finish a sentence,always butting in,showing off.:mad:
Her mother probably doesn't know about it-the old bat has dementia.
PS No offence meant to others affected by dementia is intended.
percy toboggan
05-Feb-09, 20:26
I too am glad she did not apologise.
As for the word itself well... I see no chips...apart from those on the shoulders of the offended such as them az want me to say sorry for slavery. No chance!
I know I can be wearing Gleeber but you're made of sterner stuff - perhaps you're just seeing a little sense at the end of the tunnel - and you're right about the gran'kids.
The derivative of golliwog is offensive to many I'd assume - and is a different kettle of fish. We used to use words like this freely... when there were hardly any immigrnats of colour around the place. Now there are, and only those who wish to cause offence (or upset) or risk a bunch of brown fives would dream of using the word in public today.
In the sixties Alf GArnett would regularly use far worse terms on prime time telly. I laughed, and laughed but the world has moved on. As much as I'd like to remain in that cosy, warm timewarp of smog, red double deckers and crumpets after school with mum waiting for me as I regaled tales of the football pitch and cricket square it's gone for good.
We have to adjust or/and die. Those who go first will take the worst of these feelings with them. A sense of innate superiority fashioned by history and empire. A feeling of insecurity fahsioned by overly swift change and political incompetence. Blame them not - for their country was once a very different place.
I hope my grandaughter's generation do not need to tie themselves up in constant argument over who belongs where and why the heck are we stuck in this melting pit.
Because, as the mighty gleeber rightly alludes, it IS very wearing...and diverts energy from more profitable pursuits....like perhaps flogging gollies on e.bay.
crashbandicoot1979
05-Feb-09, 20:34
I'm not enamoured with Carol Thatcher either but think this is a fuss over nothing. If her comment had been aired it might have been different but yet again the general public takes great offence and blows something completely out of proportion. Plus this nonsense about Sandringham removing golliwog dolls from sale is ridiculous aswell. I sold some robertsons badges on ebay once and referred to them as "golliwogs". Thats what the characters are and there was no racist intent in my description. Thankfully no one complained and I sold the badges no bother but I did wonder if the PC brigade would end up on my back.
Did the person actually look like a golliwog or was she just having herself on?:confused
oldchemist
05-Feb-09, 21:17
I too used to collect the paper golliwog labels from jam jars. Eventually you had enough to send off for an enamel golliwog badge. (apologies to enamel people everywhere)
At school we read about little black Sambo who lived in a mud hut. (apologies to all hut owners)
I guess that things have changed over the years but the PC brigade have gone a bit too far in many instances.
Anyway the madness continues - across the pond the Yanks are starting to refuse to employ smokers.;)
So, Barack Obama's now President of the United Sates of America -and Carol Thatcher thinks referring to a black person a a 'golliwog' is a joke? :confused
Rather reinforces my impression of her as a woman who opens her mouth before engaging her brain I'm afraid. :(
skinnydog
05-Feb-09, 21:28
She is a pain in the ass I have to admit but has anyone seen a picture of the person that she was referring to? Maybe they did look like a golliwog? True, it probably wasn't the best description that she could have used but she wasn't on air at the time, she only offended a few people around her, not thousands like that plonker jonathon woss did and as others have mentioned - he kept his job and his multi million pound salary.
2little2late
05-Feb-09, 22:32
So, does this mean Barbie dolls will be banned because some female may take offence if she was referred to as a Barbie Doll?
Does this mean Action Men will be banned because soldiers may feel offended?
Does this mean Bob The Builder will be banned because any builder named Bob may feel offended?
Rheghead:
It seems ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1136005/BBC-bombarded-2-000-complaints-sacking-Carol-Thatcher-golliwog-remark.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1136005/BBC-bombarded-2-000-complaints-sacking-Carol-Thatcher-golliwog-remark.html) ) she was talking about 'Jo-Wilfried Tsonga' ( http://www.enjoyfrance.com/content/view/1242/36/ (http://www.enjoyfrance.com/content/view/1242/36/) )
buddyrich
05-Feb-09, 23:19
It is outrageous that Carol Thatcher got booted off for her alleged racism when she clearly should have been thrown off for being a talentless nobody.
SACK Johnathan Ross...reinstate Carol Thatcher. Case Closed!
Anyone who is a public figure and in television and loudly ( cos there is NOTHING quiet about Carole Thatcher) announces that a black person looks like or reminds them of a golliwog deserves sacking for stupidity. I think that if she had said a golliwog looks like a golliwog or that she had a young friend who was rather partial to her favourite toy which was a golliwog, or that she collected golliwog badges no one would have batted an eye lid because actually a golliwog is a golliwog is a golliwog!!!! Why would you call it anything else? But to be so crass and ignorant to point to a black man and suggest he looks just like a golliwog in the PC world which is the world of the media shows a certain lack of commonsense. Strikes me that she probably thought people would snigger along with her and is surprised and indignant that they didnt.
One comment i read said "Carol Thatcher was sacked because she was an insensitive woman who opened her mouth without thinking.
Hang on, her Mum used to do that too."
:roll:
buddyrich
06-Feb-09, 00:23
Indeed. If i was a shallow and stupid as her i might make a crass remark about her enormous red nose confirming that she likes to drinks as much as her father did.
But i wouldnt because im such a pc guy.
butterfly
06-Feb-09, 01:47
to call a golliwog a golliwog is fine but to call a black man a golliwog is offensive.
SACK Johnathan Ross...reinstate Carol Thatcher. Case Closed!
absolutely.....:D
I had a golliwog soft toy as a child. When I was about three or four I was given "twin" dolls. One was fair skinned, blue eyed and blonde haired, the other was black skinned with brown eyes and affro hair. When naming them I didn`t bat an eyelid,,,,, they were both susan. I can still hear my late mother about to have a row about something saying " Now then... black susan....." on her way up the stairs. Both dolls were equally loved and personally think the pc brigade have gone too far. I have never called a black man a wog as a result of my childhood toys. "T%&T" crosses all divides.
After this latest bout of pc Im going to now buy a golliwog and display it in my window next to a cabbage patch kid. If anybody is offended by this I will merely point out that it is simply an example of integration/multi-culturalism/diversification etc which we have rammed down our throats every day. Surely nobody would find that offensive would they? And do you know what? If they do thats their problem and not mine and I dont care.
I don't think it was the best choice of words by her but I don't think she deserved to be sacked. Let's face it a lot worse has been broadcast by others who weren't sacked.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1136018/Lest-forget-The-obscenities-BBC-stars-WERENT-sacked.html
It is an utter disgrace that she was sacked. Political correctness gone absolutely raving mad!!
If the said person looks like a golliwog then there should be no problem!
Are we not allowed to state facts.
Black people are black, white people are white, this 'coloured people' thing is another example of PC gone mad.
Does a black person call a white person a 'coloured person' NO!
Political correctness is ruining society! Another fact!!
attielattie
06-Feb-09, 14:48
Why didn't the person who reported her remark have the courage of their convictions and tackle her about it at the time? Seems a bit cowardly - like a small child "telling" on someone. If they felt strongly enough about what she said, why not have a go at her there and then?
percy toboggan
06-Feb-09, 18:34
Did the person actually look like a golliwog or was she just having herself on?:confused
An interesting point.
I seem to remember seeing a fairly gangly male tennis player with wild hair who could resemble a golliwog every bit as much as any statuesque blonde woman might resemble a Barbie doll.
percy toboggan
06-Feb-09, 18:37
So, Barack Obama's now President of the United Sates of America -and Carol Thatcher thinks referring to a black person a a 'golliwog' is a joke? :confused
Rather reinforces my impression of her as a woman who opens her mouth before engaging her brain I'm afraid. :(
I don't follow you.
Obama doesn't remind me of a golliwog.
He is a mixed race chap of average build - pretty unremarkable appearance really. Good voice - gravitas galore - but a golly? Nope.
percy toboggan
06-Feb-09, 18:40
Rheghead:
It seems ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1136005/BBC-bombarded-2-000-complaints-sacking-Carol-Thatcher-golliwog-remark.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1136005/BBC-bombarded-2-000-complaints-sacking-Carol-Thatcher-golliwog-remark.html) ) she was talking about 'Jo-Wilfried Tsonga' ( http://www.enjoyfrance.com/content/view/1242/36/ (http://www.enjoyfrance.com/content/view/1242/36/) )
He looks nowt like a golliwog.
Isn't there another one who looks wackier?
percy toboggan
06-Feb-09, 18:46
to call a golliwog a golliwog is fine but to call a black man a golliwog is offensive.
What if he dressed himself up like a golliwog and went to a fancy dress party ?
The Pepsi Challenge
06-Feb-09, 18:53
So, Thatcher got the bullet, eh? Quite rightly in my opinion.
John Barnes apparently has said that it depends on the intent behind the word. Is there any benign intent behind using the word gollywog? Is it simply a more 'polite' way of saying wog?
I seem to have recurring discussions with some members of the older generation who are offended that I think sentences like 'going to the Pakis' or 'do you want a Chinkie' could easily be avoided by simply saying 'going to the shop' or 'do you want a Chinese'. Same amount of syllables or less, for one thing.
They think as they do not use the words maliciously, then they are not offensive and take great affront at me saying that they are offensive terms, and while they might not be racists, they just sound like them
Latest bout of verbal fisticuffs started after Jeremy Clarkson's description of Gordon Brown as a 'one-eyed Scottish idiot'.
I personally think that if there is no real need to describe a person's colour, then why bother doing it if it's not essential to the story you are trying to tell. For example: going to the Pakis. Forgetting for a second that these 'Pakis' might originally come from one of a number of countries (and may well consider themselves more Scottish than anything else), it is only 'Pakis' who have the shops around here. So the descriptive terms is unnecessary.
I also don't think it is up to the user of the word to decide what might be considered offensive. It is the person who is being described who has that privilege.
percy toboggan
06-Feb-09, 18:58
Why didn't the person who reported her remark have the courage of their convictions and tackle her about it at the time? Seems a bit cowardly - like a small child "telling" on someone. If they felt strongly enough about what she said, why not have a go at her there and then?
Because at one level or another they are probably a BBC ponce - luvving it up in their media world at our expense & revelling in diversity whilst championing everything ethnic. Gutless wonders who would probably not say boo to a goose. You're right - this is cowardly. Carol Thatcher is a buffoon of a woman who seems to delight in being unusually frank, slightly batty and would take few prisoners. She's an intelligent woman of experience and insight and would probably intimidate said ponce, who might then think it a better idea to snitch than take her on in the way most of us might - face to face.
Only today I had a bloke telling me his parrot was as intelligent as a seven year old child. (it's grey, not black) I gave him short shrift and sent him on his way. Explaining that at seven, I used to enjoy Enid Blyton - apparently, and predictably his parrot cannot read. I might give this man a wide berth in future, he'd been droning on about dogs for several minutes - one of which is chocolate brown.
percy toboggan
06-Feb-09, 19:11
So, Thatcher got the bullet, eh? Quite rightly in my opinion.
John Barnes apparently has said that it depends on the intent behind the word. Is there any benign intent behind using the word gollywog? Is it simply a more 'polite' way of saying wog?
I seem to have recurring discussions with some members of the older generation who are offended that I think sentences like 'going to the Pakis' or 'do you want a Chinkie' could easily be avoided by simply saying 'going to the shop' or 'do you want a Chinese'. Same amount of syllables or less, for one thing.
They think as they do not use the words maliciously, then they are not offensive and take great affront at me saying that they are offensive terms, and while they might not be racists, they just sound like them
Latest bout of verbal fisticuffs started after Jeremy Clarkson's description of Gordon Brown as a 'one-eyed Scottish idiot'.
I personally think that if there is no real need to describe a person's colour, then why bother doing it if it's not essential to the story you are trying to tell. For example: going to the Pakis. Forgetting for a second that these 'Pakis' might originally come from one of a number of countries (and may well consider themselves more Scottish than anything else), it is only 'Pakis' who have the shops around here. So the descriptive terms is unnecessary.
I also don't think it is up to the user of the word to decide what might be considered offensive. It is the person who is being described who has that privilege.
Quite why you choose to introduce the words you are so critical of when most of them had not been written on this thread is a mystery to me. However if you are spending a lot of time with 'older generation' members who continually refer to the 'Paki' shop when it's the only alternative I do not envy you. Economy with language is a blessing...'the shop' is far more suitable.
And it's okay to 'sound like a racist ' if you're not one then? How very kind of you. Golliwog and the derivative you mention are two different entities.
I understand the shortened version meant 'western oriental gentleman' even though it's a nonsencial definition thta's what I was always led to understand - it had absolutely nowt to do with dolls.
Do people have the right not to be 'offended' ? I say no. I simply will not have others dictating my thoughts, or my speech. As I wrote earlier I will not seek to offend, but if everyone was as prissy & precious as you (sometimes) appear I might never open my mouth..and that would never do.
I have heard many black people dismissing this latest row as a storm in a tea cup and irrelevant nonsense. I'd rather listen to them than an impressionable young pc zealot who has adopted the advertising slogan of a nasty un-appealing product which encroaches cultures far outwith its natural home and is generally seen as a symbol for exploitative U.S. capitalism.
Valerie Campbell
06-Feb-09, 20:22
When I was a child I had a golliwog and never thought it was a derogatory word or even that it referred to my ragdoll being black. I just thought that was his name. He was actually lovely and my favourite doll. Wasn't there a marmalade with a golliwog on the label? If anyone can remember it's name, can you put me out my misery?
When I was a child I had a golliwog and never thought it was a derogatory word or even that it referred to my ragdoll being black. I just thought that was his name. He was actually lovely and my favourite doll. Wasn't there a marmalade with a golliwog on the label? If anyone can remember it's name, can you put me out my misery?
Robertson's
Boozeburglar
06-Feb-09, 22:04
Around only 2000 complaints about her getting sacked?
So few really.
Personally I think Terry Jones has gone far enough with this character and should let it lie.
"She is not the daughter of the ex Prime Minister! She is a very naughty boy!"
butterfly
07-Feb-09, 00:29
What if he dressed himself up like a golliwog and went to a fancy dress party ?
percy it strikes me that you have an answer for everything![lol]
percy it strikes me that you have an answer for everything![lol]
Ve haf vays ov making everyone see ve ver right. [lol]
To be honest I personally think this thread is complete Tosh !! Including the derogatorty remarks about Dementia which I found awful and hurtfull you have to live it to know it
Does it really matter what she called whoever tennis player what It was in Private once again it was in the green room probably under the influnence of copious amount of wine !!
In the company of such High rated pillars of the community Brand and Adrian Chiles or however you spell his name Not !!! I really dont think so!!
like Jeremy Clarkson thread and before that Jonathan Ross and the other (name escapes me person )Brand person all utter tosh !!!
I collected gollys for years until I got a tin badge thing and I was so proud took me ages borrowing from Granparents breakfast table to to achieve 1
Will Beeb Change I think Not
Will it affect your life ?
Probably Not
butterfly
07-Feb-09, 01:01
its all gone quiet now,do you think hes off to get some beauty sleep;)
[quote=Anne x;498128]To be honest I personally think this thread is complete Tosh !! Including the derogatorty remarks about Dementia which I found awful and hurtfull you have to live it to know it
My jibe was aimed at a woman I have an intense dislike of. I won't apologise for that. A friend of over thirty years standing has dementia so I do know the suffering involved. I accept not everyone gets my humour, simple as it is, it's how I deal with the crap I've had in life.
percy it strikes me that you have an answer for everything![lol]
No butterfly, percy's posts reveal that he doesn't have an answer for anything, that's why he posts so frequently and so repetitively. I think he needs a hobby, something that will allow him to be creative and positive and loveable, something that will take him into retirement with renewed hope. But that's a new thread. Maybe later...............
[quote=Anne x;498128]To be honest I personally think this thread is complete Tosh !! Including the derogatorty remarks about Dementia which I found awful and hurtfull you have to live it to know it
My jibe was aimed at a woman I have an intense dislike of. I won't apologise for that. A friend of over thirty years standing has dementia so I do know the suffering involved.
So does that make it allright ?
One persons dislike is a another persons complete Admiration none of us are responsible for what our children say or dont say but I really dont think that bringing the mother in this case into the equation has contributed to the thread as you said a jibe a cheap one
butterfly
07-Feb-09, 01:52
joxville said margaret thatcher had dementia,thats all.never saw any derogatory remarks about dementia.i think your reading too much into that.its not fair to accuse someone of something that was not said....:(
Anne x, I understand your reaction to JV's mention of dementia but why isn't it then derogatory and awful and hurtful to call a black person a golliwog?
butterfly
07-Feb-09, 02:12
Anne x, why isn't it then derogatory and awful and hurtful to call a black person a golliwog?
good question:roll:
percy toboggan
07-Feb-09, 15:54
No butterfly, percy's posts reveal that he doesn't have an answer for anything, that's why he posts so frequently and so repetitively. I think he needs a hobby, something that will allow him to be creative and positive and loveable, something that will take him into retirement with renewed hope. But that's a new thread. Maybe later...............
I hope not crayola....i tend to fight shy of the spotlight.
Thanks for the concern though and the interest.
I have no answers now but this much I can say.....
I resent the 'repetetive' inference . I do vary my posts and if I return to a theme try to look at the same subject from a different standpoint. As the mighty ABBA once sang...
'I believe in Angles'
(as you agreed with me late last night , perhaps we're making progress)
I blame Carol Thatcher's Father for all of this. My exclusive picture shows that he was the one who got her started along this road at an early age:-
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/cgon111l.jpg
I hope not crayola....i tend to fight shy of the spotlight.
Thanks for the concern though and the interest.
I have no answers now but this much I can say.....
I resent the 'repetetive' inference . I do vary my posts and if I return to a theme try to look at the same subject from a different standpoint. As the mighty ABBA once sang...
'I believe in Angles'
(as you agreed with me late last night , perhaps we're making progress)You're right, I shouldn't have described your posts as 'repetitive'. Is 'obsessive' better? ;)
Is there any benign intent behind using the word gollywog? Is it simply a more 'polite' way of saying wog?
Might be wrong here but Id have thought gollywogs were around long before the word wog ,in which case your statement is wrong. If Im wrong I apologise.
percy toboggan
08-Feb-09, 16:27
You're right, I shouldn't have described your posts as 'repetitive'. Is 'obsessive' better? ;)
A woman of your talents (if indeed you are female - on the web one can never be truly ashore) can do better.
'Remarkable', 'innovative' , 'tripe'....just three suggestions crayola. I always find yours worth a look...I can pay you no higher compliment.
Thinking about it conjunctively ...remarkable, innovative tripe seems to sum mine up rather well. Pithy me.
Lol percy, I thought 'obsessive' was quite apt but I'll admit I only thought about it for about 30 seconds.
On the whole, I don't think your posts are remarkable and your opinions are generally not innovative, nor are they tripe. Well, some of them are but I can write tripe with the best of them. :lol:
I'll get back to you if I come up with a better word than 'obsessive'.
C x
What make the whole episode so ridiculous is the very idea that Carol Thatcher could possibly be the very first person who has ever said a slightly dubious thing in the3 “Green Room”. Need I mention Bernard Manning, just one amongst how many others, who appeared many times of the BBC?
Jay Hunt, the BBC1 Controller, Claimed that the Green Room was a public Place yet a former head of the BBC said that it was a completely new concept to him and that it was the first time he had ever known it to be described as such.
At first she claimed there were three other people in the group with Thatcher, Jo Brand, Chris Moyles and an unnamed person involved with a charity. That later became those people and a ”dozen others”.
The most ridiculous idea I have heard is that Jo Brand, a woman who has made a whole career out of saying the most outrageous and disgusting things with the sole intent of attempting to shock people as as a form of comedy, stalked off because she was “disgusted” by the comment.
I would call that nothing more than a case of the biter, bitten and find the whole concept of that to be a little hypocritical.
Chris Moyles also has little to be “shocked” about either. On one occasion and on air he was asked by Halle Berry if he was having a “racist moment” after impersonating a black male and indicating that by putting his hands up people would know which way he was facing. On another occasion he made a statement, again on air, that polish women made good ladies of dubious morality. And those are not the only unacceptable things Moyles has been pulled up for about comments he broadcast.
It would seem that, if the accounts are correct, that nobody went and snitched to anybody at the BBC. Somebody saw fit, presumably to ensure the BBC did not deal with it as an internal matter as the comment had not been made on air, to pass the information to the Times knowing full well that the matter would then become very public.
The Times then contacted the BBC about the matter thereby ensuring that the BBC had to make a decision how to deal with the situation in public at which stage the BBC, hoping to deflect criticism, over reacted and started the current storm.
It would be interesting to know just who went running to the press because I suspect that was done by somebody with an axe to grind.
Seems the BBC are slightly inconsistent when it comes to their dealing with racist comments depending on who makes them because Moyles is not the only one who has made racist comments on air and received nothing more than a slapped wrist.
percy toboggan
08-Feb-09, 18:54
More common sense and incision from Mr.Mandible.
I think you have summed it up admirably it's 'Quint'essential inconsistency
to say the least.
We're going to need a bigger Beeb.
We'll find it for the licence fee...but catching it will cost much, much more.
(draws fingernails down blackboard - ooops!)
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