Holocaust denial: an extraditable offence?

[percy toboggan]

The Nazi's extermination of Jews, and other clearly definable groups on an industrial scale in the nineteen thirties & forties was an abomination and a permanent stain on the face of mankind. Millions were murdered by a barbarous regime in an effort to ethnically cleanse Europe.

Under the European arrest warrant scheme a British bloke by the name of Tobin might well be sent to Germany to face laws under their system which clamp down hard on holocaust denial.

Whilst I do not agree with Tobin, and think he is probably delusional and wishes to distort history for his own ends, I do believe in the right of freedom of speech in this country. He is neither inciting nor promoting racial 'hatred', and frankly he should be allowed to promote whatever wacky views he wishes. It's up to us should we wish to give him any attention whatever.

I understand Germany's wish to clamp down hard on any far-right opinion and I support them 100%...however Tobin is not there, nor I'd have thought is he likely to be. We dot not yet have such laws on utterances and claims so is the mans extradition fair? I am not sure it is.

Should we be allowed to say whatever we think, within the terms of British law, or must we fit in with E.U. neighbours and always do their bidding?

[rockchick]

"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."

Easy to say, but hard to live up to, especially when the message you are hearing completely turns your stomach.

[Rheghead]

I think holocaust denial should be a criminal offence. I think any form of racist hatred parading as freedom of speech should be tackled head on as any other speech that is likely to be offensive.

If the holocaust didn't happen then where did 15 million people disappear to?:roll:

[Aaldtimer]

Australian citizen, Frederick Toben, was arrested on Wednesday at Heathrow, en route from the United States to Dubai, and has been remanded in custody awaiting an extradition hearing on October 17.

and

Toben was detained under an EU arrest warrant issued by the District Court in Mannheim, Germany, which accuses him of publishing material on the internet "of an anti-semitic and/or revisionist nature".

[rockchick]

The 15 million died for nothing if we start clamping down on the messenger instead of the message.

Where do you stop? Should the Creationists be able to jail those who promote the theory of evolution, as it is against their religious beliefs?

If some idiot decides in his own mind that the holocaust never happened, or people never landed on the moon, or that the sky is actually purple, and wants to write/speak about their idea, who are you to say that they can't? If they come up with a convincing argument, perhaps they will sway some people to their way of thinking, but in my mind the true will always out in the end.

[MadPict]

Under the European arrest warrant scheme a British bloke by the name of Tobin...


Dr Toben, is German-born and now has Australian citizenship...

So hardly a "British bloke".......

[Melancholy Man]

Apart from some far-out wackos, Denial has long since ceased to claim the killings did not occur. It now seeks to deny their *significance*. Such as, why the concentration on six millions (sic.), what of the other nine or 50 millions? Where are the gas-chambers which could have killed anyone in large numbers?

Toben is an odious character who should be removed from this country as soon as possible. The next flight to Australia.

Rockchick, there is a difference between denying the historicity of an intensively studied event still within living memory, and mocking an unprovable religious tenet.


Easy to say,Even harder for Voltaire to have said it!


The Nazi's extermination of Jews,Any Nazi in particular? Lots of Nazis did bad things.

Oh, well, I'll get my coat.

[_Ju_]

.......He is neither inciting nor promoting racial 'hatred'...... ?

Oh yes he is and does. Do your research better.

[rockchick]

Rockchick, there is a difference between denying the historicity of an intensively studied event still within living memory, and mocking an unprovable religious tenet.

The principal is still the same...people are entitled to express their opinions thoughts and ideas, as long as they do not slander. Has the German government has legislated that expressing the opinion that the holocaust did not occur is slanderous?

[MadPict]

Where do you stop? Should the Creationists be able to jail those who promote the theory of evolution, as it is against their religious beliefs?



Whereas the existence of any God is subject to proof being presented of his existence or even his 'work', evolution is pretty well documented so any arguing against creationism is fair.

Unlike denying the holocaust, of which plenty of proof exists, and there are people still alive today who witnessed it....

[Tighsonas4]

Whereas the existence of any God is subject to proof being presented of his existence or even his 'work', evolution is pretty well documented so any arguing against creationism is fair.

Unlike denying the holocaust, of which plenty of proof exists, and there are people still alive today who witnessed it....
perhaps reading the book by CORRIE TEN BOOM who survived altho her sister didnt she gives her experiences of time there
the first in to liberate it would hardly speak about it
the truth is the truth whatever may be said otherwise tony

[Melancholy Man]

The principal is still the same...

Only in the sense that Deniers wish to have the Holocaust designated a religious belief - the Holycause or Holocausinity. There is only one reason why anyone would "express doubt about the Holocaust".

[TBH]

Will Finkelstein be arrested sometime in the future I wonder?



"The claims of Holocaust uniqueness are intellectually barren and morally discreditable."

"The field of Holocaust studies is replete with nonsense, if not sheer fraud."


"The Holocaust industry has become an outright extortion racket."

"The Holocaust may yet turn out to be the 'greatest robbery in the history of mankind.'"

"I sometimes think that American Jewry 'discovering' the Nazi Holocaust was worse than its having been forgotten."

[rich]

language gets slippery here. If Mr. Tuben is "delusional" as Percy states then his utterances are symptoms of an underlying psychiatric disorder. If that is the case we need not respect his right to free speech any more than we would dignify the verbal outbursts of a schizophrenic. It is a medical problem.
But if after examining the Holocaust in detail and Mr Tuben comes up with the opinion that it never occured then he must be a remarkably stupid person. As far as I know stupidity is not a crime. But Iwill not be inviting Mr. Tuben around for dinner any more than I would seek out the company of a flat earth zealot.
There remains the possibility that Mr. Tuben is an evil person. As such we could ram a stake through his heart and bury him at the crossroads. But evil is not a diagnostic category so I guess we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

[JoeSoap]

Let's face it, for most of us if we were confronted by this idiot we'd tell him to go sit quietly in the corner until he'd learned some decency.

With that in mind: I wonder if his arrest, extradition and trial aren't going to do more to further his cause than anything he could have personally said or done. I mean, denying the reality of the Holocaust is a bit like denying that the Earth is billions of years old - if you already agree then you'll listen and nod along, if you don't then you won't.

That said, I don't have a problem with Germany recognising the seriousness of the issue and making it a criminal offence.

Where I do have a problem here is the method by which he is likely to be deported. Under the European Arrest Warrant a member state doesn't actually need to demonstrate guilt. They simply need to ask and you shall be delivered.

That, far more than the crime he has been arrested for, is what bothers me about this.

[Melancholy Man]

Rich, having consulted the Adelaide Institute website, I suspect that Toben doesn't not believe in the Destruction of European Jewry. It's just that he can't voice this in public lest admiration show through (even amongst those good-hearted anti-war types who're always willing to lament dead Jews, and denounce those who ain't willing to become dead).

We can't prove conclusively that the Earth is billions of years old. We can, however, *disprove* the alternative. The existence and *significance* of the mass Jew-shoots of last century, however, can be proved.

My concern is as with the legality. Signatories to the EAW agreement ain't obliged to accede to every request. Germany's defence rests on his having been a German citizen, and a belief that sovereign state's rule extends across the Internet. Much as I would like to lock Toben in a room with half a dozen members of the Golani Brigade, I have to say no to this Anschluss.


Will Finkelstein be arrested sometime in the future I wonder?

He's already been deported from Jew Country (TM The Wire). His name derives from the Yiddish for Fool's Gold. That said, I don't know for sure if he's cavorted with Nazis (the gold-standard, of course), as Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappé and Israel Shahak have.

[percy toboggan]

Oh yes he is and does. Do your research better.

Only if you promise to improve your grammar!

p.s. - what research?

[_Ju_]

Only if you promise to improve your grammar!

p.s. - what research?

Only if you learn to speak a foreign language as well as I speak english. Let me explain my sentence a little better ( afterall, you probably don't have a grade A+ cambridge proficiency certificate, do you?): You afirmed
He is neither inciting nor promoting racial 'hatred' My answer to that is :
Oh yes he is [inciting racial hatered] and does [promote racial hatred]. What is between brackets is for your clarification. No gramatical errors, just coloquial "speak", so to say. I expect an apology (not).

Research= find out what this idiot is really about. he is not just about spouting idiocies about the veracity of the holocaust. He is a racist and hate propagandist, unlike what you afirmed in your post. Something you would recognize I am sure?

[rich]

I think I agree with you on the extradition issue. Of course had he been a camp guard, or a war criminal or an SS trooper, extradition would then be in order.

[percy toboggan]

Only if you learn to speak a foreign language as well as I speak english. Let me explain my sentence a little better ( afterall, you probably don't have a grade A+ cambridge proficiency certificate, do you?): You afirmed My answer to that is : . What is between brackets is for your clarification. No gramatical errors, just coloquial "speak", so to say. I expect an apology (not).

Research= find out what this idiot is really about. he is not just about spouting idiocies about the veracity of the holocaust. He is a racist and hate propagandist, unlike what you afirmed in your post. Something you would recognize I am sure?

Cambridge proficiency certificate or not..
'do your research better' is a poorly constructed command.

I don't need to call upon my English Language 'A' Level (Ashton-Under-Lyne college of further education) to tell me that.

Apology?
I do have a cycling proficiency certificate, and my 25yard crawl somewhere but I seldom need either of 'em these days ...especially the latter.

p.s. 'let me explain my sentence a little better' also sounds wrong to me in its construction.... you might have the qualification but the application perhaps leaves a little to be desired. All of this is of minimal import, but as you decided to flaunt your attainments AND issued perfunctory commands to myself I felt duty bound to 'av a pop.

p.s. I've just remembered you might be a foreigner...in which case I do apologise....half-heartedly.

[_Ju_]

Oh Percy, how magnanimous of you. Especially picking on very clear language that might not be constucted the way you wish it to be, but is still clear. Should I trawl through your posts finding gramatical faux-pas?
(Oooooppppsss was that a bloody foreign word that just popped in there?) Nahhhhhhh (opss, a non existant one). I'll tell you why not: you do your best to put yourself over as a proud Brit, defending your homeland from the destruction you see as inevitable with globilisation. Yet you use the very tool that allows that mixing of the world (ie; internet) to live vicariously in what you percieve as your idle. But what you really are is a xenophobic ignorant racist who's favorite passtime is grumbling about glories past . Because of this, I have for the most part ignored your posts and will rapidly proceed to do so again.
Unfortunately in this thread you choose a subject that might interest me, but as usual you spout non-facts and the best thing you can come up with when someone points it out is that their grammar leaves alot to be desired??????? Pathetic !!!!!!![lol] You can keep your half hearted apologies. I do not need them or want them. Chauuuuuuuuuuuuu tenha uma boa vida!

[Boozeburglar]

Fisticuffs at dawn I think....

I think campaigning denial should be scrutinized by the Law wherever it occurs.

It is part of the whole sordid spectre of rising anti semitism.

[TBH]

Were the number of jewish people that died, over-exaggerated? Did the holocaust occur as described?

[Saveman]

If I read the situation rightly TBH would be classed as a denier just by asking that question.

Is asking a question intrinsically racist?

[TBH]

If I read the situation rightly TBH would be classed as a denier just by asking that question.

Is asking a question intrinsically racist?From My point of view, i certainly do not know enough about the subject, although I am well aware of it's existence, to be able to give an informed opinion, hence the question.
I see your point however as to how it could be misconstrued as being a denial or even anti-semitic.

[hotrod4]

It definitely happened. My father in law visited Auschwitz as he had Family that passed there.
He said it was the creepiest and quietest place he had ever visited. Nothing lived there and the "sight"of all the belongings left etc brought home how big this actually was.

I suppose numbers could be "doctored" to make things look worse but there is no denying that this did happen and should NEVER happen again.

[Melancholy Man]

Were the number of jewish people that died, over-exaggerated? Did the holocaust occur as described?

Depends what you mean by as described. In the detailed historical and personal accounts, it is as described and then some. A lot of the received wisdom is either simplistic or, even, inaccurate, and scumbags like Toben rely on gaps in many people's knowledge to throw doubt.

A common one is the six millions figure. That's based on pretty much one remark at Nuremberg. The true figure could have been as 'low' as 5.25 millions. Or as high as 7.8 millions.

The matter of the practical and logistic difficulties of dispatching the victims by gas-chamber, a la David Irving, is another 'discrepancy' touted. Like naff it is. A majority of victims died in open-air killings out East (Babi Yar and Lasi, alone, killed 35,000 and 12,000 respectively), and even within the death camps (separate from the concentrations camps as is often used to fudge the issue), relatively few were gassed. The majority were shot, hanged, starved to death.

The real cracker comes when a Denier says, okay, Jews did die, but so did millions of others. Yeah, right, you're trying to help your case by saying more than six millions died?

Frauds and snakes-in-the-grass such as this should be exposed, although they do not have any right to a platform at Place A or in Publication B. Yet there does come a point when the best deserved response would be a fist in the face.

[percy toboggan]

Oh Percy, how magnanimous of you. Especially picking on very clear language that might not be constucted the way you wish it to be, but is still clear. Should I trawl through your posts finding gramatical faux-pas?
(Oooooppppsss was that a bloody foreign word that just popped in there?) Nahhhhhhh (opss, a non existant one). I'll tell you why not: you do your best to put yourself over as a proud Brit, defending your homeland from the destruction you see as inevitable with globilisation. Yet you use the very tool that allows that mixing of the world (ie; internet) to live vicariously in what you percieve as your idle. But what you really are is a xenophobic ignorant racist who's favorite passtime is grumbling about glories past . Because of this, I have for the most part ignored your posts and will rapidly proceed to do so again.
Unfortunately in this thread you choose a subject that might interest me, but as usual you spout non-facts and the best thing you can come up with when someone points it out is that their grammar leaves alot to be desired??????? Pathetic !!!!!!![lol] You can keep your half hearted apologies. I do not need them or want them. Chauuuuuuuuuuuuu tenha uma boa vida!

I seem to have touched a nerve or two, Ju.
It's about time you climbed down off that fence.
Er..it's idyll...not 'idle' but I knew what you meant...I think.
You're taking this far too seriously...I see this as a bit of fun ....don't get too steamed up over my contributions because they're not worth it...just like all the others. If you really do want to trawl through my posts to look for grammatical errors I would appreciate some feedback. Personally, I'd not waste me time if I were you.

Incidentally isn't French a wonderful language. I've come a fair way with it myself these past nine months....my grammar and spelling are atrocious though. Not to worry jenny regret rian.

Good to see you back boozeburglar.