View Full Version : Music Thead Black Hole!
Uppiebalad
06-Dec-05, 16:10
Well is it just me or has the c.org Black Hole just swung it's way through earth's orbit and sucked in another thread. This seems to happen a lot in here whenever people get confronted with constructive advice and or critisism. Caithness people love to bury their heads in the sand when someone gives their true opinion.
So I can play keyboard but I simply chosse to do other things. I have created music and songs many times in the past. I am active in the arts and my field covers all other interests. I work with amateurs and professionals in all creative persuits especially music, theatre, television and film. I'm not slagging any local musician, I'm asking them to show me original work which is what the common masses are looking for.
Yes we all have a favourite song and like to bring our own slant to that which may be very good indeed but as the Boss said, they played covers for years and got nowhere. Cyanide want to get somewhere and I'm hoping they'll see what the truth is about their ambition. If they continue with covers their ambition will never be fulfilled.
A Caithness audience is not a true audience because we are all very connected up here- family, friends of family, mates, mates' mates and people who fancy the band members. You have to be brave and ignore your personal opinion of your own work, just perform it and see but take it out of Caithness to a real audience.
The Pepsi Challenge
06-Dec-05, 18:56
I agree: nothing ventured, nothing gained. Just look at The Fence Collective - a bunch of acts and musicians clustered round the Fife area, who, coming from a small rural setting, play their own music and make the effort to generate their own scene. They are now featured in all the top music rags (Mojo, Q, NME etc.) and playing big venues. Take a look here and see what I mean: http://www.fencerecords.com/folks/fencecollective_intro.htm
Start your own label, form a collective with other bands. In short, do something... anything. If it gets up peoples' noses, fine. It doesn't matter, so long as it gets people talking about it.
Not so long ago, Caithness had a colourful, thriving - and highly original - music scene. Geography doesn't always have the last laugh. Get active.
Uppiebalad
06-Dec-05, 21:52
Thank you Pepsi. So there it is folks. Boss Hogg, Estrella and let's not forget Budha Crush all took their work out of the county and they are now making noticable footprints.
well, not every band who plays, plays to make it big,
for example, does every person you know who plays football or rugby play because they want to be the next BIG THING,
as far as me and my other band members are concerned we play, why, for fun, its a hobby, i do believe i am not the only person with these views,
and not just that, when it comes to music scenes, yeah, maybe caithness isnt the biggest, and though we have played out with caithness ourselves, i, personally again, am quite content as it is,
not to say your views are wrong, your opinions are your own, and you voice them, like everyone should, yet i feel it should be said the music scene here isnt all bad, well, not for us guys anyways
thanks for your time
fair enough Ben, thats cool that you wanna play covers, nobody is saying you have to try and make it big. What they are saying is why not try doing your own thing? why try and gain success on the back of other peoples work?
the way i'm dointi jsutnow is i'm tryign to get a band together to work with to play orignal material with K Dragon, and i am gettin together with a few other mates to put a band togther where wecan indulge a want to play songs we love byother artists, and who knows maybe if thigns go well enogh in covers band maybe we will start producign our own material later, but currently i just wanna play for the sake of gettin otu and jamming with other ppl, if soemkinda sucsess coes asa result i'll be honest i'm not gonna complain, btu mroe than anythign i jsut wanna play withother ppl,there is only so much we can achieve in our bedrooms jamming along to CD's
Im not in it to gain success off of other peoples backs (and i wouldnt really call jamming some covers in thurso gaining success)
Music is something i love, which you yourself jeid know all to well, and yes, i have done my own stuff, pretty much anyone who plays has done something or other, be it crap or good.
I just enjoy jamming, simple as that, no matter what it is, be it my own stuff or other peoples stuff, i dont do it for success, i do it, cause im good at it and because i can,
that pretty much sums it up
Uppiebalad
07-Dec-05, 03:02
I'm sure somewhere along the way I acknowledged that some people play music for fun and Duress are apparently in that way of things. That's fine, but my cut and thrust here is aimed at those who are of the intent to make it big.
That local film group in Thurso make amateur films for fun but they haven't done any remakes of existing films even though they enjoy films massively. Their work is original with only the smallest exceptions being made in homage to notable films. That is something common in movies however. No copies just be inspired by!
If you are not into success off other peoples' backs it's time to quit covers because you are known for playing other peoples work. Kinda hypacritical ain't it? Being a performer whether in music or theatre, whatever you automatically bring yourself to the attention of the masses because that is the nature of performance. If it is a hobby for ones own enjoyment perhaps it's best to keep it in the gargage. Why gig if you don't want to be some kind of success?
In the general forum I spotted a quote at the foot of submissions by Porshipoo which reads, "do not go where the path may lead you, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail". Now that is a great philosphy.:cool:
The Pepsi Challenge
07-Dec-05, 04:41
Success, in my opinion, is dependent on how the author (performer, actor, writer etc.) measures it; and not upon how others view it. That said, you can play covers and turn it into something fresh and new. Take the band Dread Zeppelin for example - they play reggae versions of Led Zeppelin songs sung by an Elvis impersonator - Tortelvis, incedentally. Or how about Hayseed Dixie, who play hillbilly-bluegrass versions of classic rock tunes? A novelty, perhaps, still, there's always The Detroit Cobras, a garage-rock band fronted by women playing obscure 50s and 60s soul/blues numbers. In the latters case, it could be argued that the songs by the bands they cover will never be heard or appreciated by a wider audience, therefore, by changing the format in how they are presented not only keeps said music alive, but forms a new creation out of something old and long forgotten. That charms me.
On the subject of Hayseed Dixie, my own band - Controversial Negro - will be supporting them at the Garage, in Glasgow, on Sunday, January 29th. It's a Sold Out show - sorry folks. But hey, we'll be playing a song called 'Just Another Band From Atomic City', so Caithness - and Thurso in particular - won't be feeling entirely left out.
I'm sure somewhere along the way I acknowledged that some people play music for fun and Duress are apparently in that way of things. That's fine, but my cut and thrust here is aimed at those who are of the intent to make it big.
That local film group in Thurso make amateur films for fun but they haven't done any remakes of existing films even though they enjoy films massively. Their work is original with only the smallest exceptions being made in homage to notable films. That is something common in movies however. No copies just be inspired by!
If you are not into success off other peoples' backs it's time to quit covers because you are known for playing other peoples work. Kinda hypacritical ain't it? Being a performer whether in music or theatre, whatever you automatically bring yourself to the attention of the masses because that is the nature of performance. If it is a hobby for ones own enjoyment perhaps it's best to keep it in the gargage. Why gig if you don't want to be some kind of success?
In the general forum I spotted a quote at the foot of submissions by Porshipoo which reads, "do not go where the path may lead you, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail". Now that is a great philosphy.:cool:
i was gonna reply to Reev's post... but you bet me to it!
Boss Hogg
07-Dec-05, 14:36
I have to say... I'm absolutely delighted by the level of interest being shown to original music in Caithness. Whether constructive or not it's great to see people discussing it. The more people interested in it the more chance Caithness has of developing a music scene again.
exactly that man.... we need a scene. i know a few people who are trying to get bands going but finding members is proving to be difficult
its gotten to the point that i'm so desperate to play in a band that i'll play with anyone doing any style of original material. I'd love nothing more than caithness to have a music scene. bands should get off their lazy asses and stop wasting undoubted talent playing covers all the time!
Boss Hogg
07-Dec-05, 15:45
If you had stuff written jeid there'd be nothing to stop you from playing acoustic shows by yourself??? You could even do a wee half hour before an electric band went on. The more original music being played in pubs and clubs the more chance of the people of Caithness actually listening to it. Unfortunately we struggle against the mentality of if they don't know it then it must be rubbish, but that can be changed through alot of hard work and effort. As long as people continue to put on live original music in Caithness then this attitude can be changed.
sigh, i dont think im getting my point across here, nevermind, i am not here to have an arguement, we all have our opinions, thats fine,
but Jeid, ill disagree with you AGAIN, sigh "bands should get off their lazy asses and stop wasting undoubted talent playing covers all the time!" What on earth, how is it lazy if a band perofrms covers, its not lazy,
like i said before, thats what im happy doing, ugh, dude, its not laziness, its what i enjoy, if i wanted to do my own stuff on a serious level then i would do, but i dont, why? Cause i do what i enjoy, and what i enjoy is doing what i do now, its my "cup of tea" you could say
how is it lazy? let me think. you, dave, bones and moncur all have undoubted talent. I don't particularly like what your doing, but hey, opinions n all that. What i'm saying is, have you never wanted to try to do your own stuff publicly? If your gonna continue to do covers... fair enough, and i'm assuming thats the case. I just think your kinda putting your fine bass playing skillz to waste by playing songs that are hardly challenging.
I'd actually be quite interested to hear at least ONE.... yeah... 1 (one)... thats one less that 2 and 1 more than 0... original song by Duress. It would maybe make some people see if they can write and perform their own stuff.
rumour has it you have a couple of tracks written... why not play them?
its a challenge reev :P
Jeid..........gggggggrrrrrrrrr, yes a few stuff written, but not for this time
you just remember, when we first started we did Robs stuff, a challange eh, well, you will hear original material, not yet, but you will, challange eh,
get out Halo, deathmatch time, wooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Uppiebalad
07-Dec-05, 21:42
AHA! the tides of change, they are a sweepin in. Aparently I'm offending everyone in this forum yet above lies evidence of support for what I've been saying.
For those of you who are feeling offended- stop- think- what I am asking of you is one simple thing. I want to hear your own work. How can you find this offensive.
It is a compliment to be asked by the paying public to specifically demonstarte your skills through your own composition. It shows ultimately that I am very interested in your work.
My dismay is that many of you seem intent on letting my music tastes down by playing covers. I'm a paying punter. When I go to a gig I don't want to hear someone doing a cover, I want to here something new and original.
From the 1930s through to the early 1990s each decade produced thousands of outstanding works that took music in new and untravelled directions. For the last decade there are only dozens.
We are in an era of over-re-hash. Sure there have always been covers but mostly it was all originality. The music loving public is desparate for that new direction in music to occur.
The last five years has seen a dramatic rise in the number of 'real' bands due to advances in home recording and internet media access. There are some fantastic bands out there and some of our local guys have the nerve to go for it like Boss Hogg, Estrella, Budha Crush and Crimson Tide. Any one of these bands might suddenly break through and bestow upon the nation the next truely great song that becomes the must hear track for budding musicians of the next 50 years. But that won't happen unless you make an effort.
At my peril I say that Seekers were chart toppers for years and they made music for the same reason as Duress- for fun.
By all means play for fun.
Anyone interested in playing for the punters/fans, line up here!
crazy chick
07-Dec-05, 22:22
at the end of the day it does nah matter if it is playing covers or your own stuff as long as you enjoy yourself.
Uppiebalad
07-Dec-05, 23:07
The point, Crazy Chick is not whether you enjoy yourself or not because if you weren't enjoying what you do you wouldn't do it. All artists get enjoyment out of their work whether they keep it in the back room or exhibit nationwide.
The point that some of us share is for those who want to get somewhere. Doing it soley for yourself is rewarding but in wanting to make a mark you need to get a fanbase which you cannot get if you don't care if anyone else is interested. Every band that ever made it owes a huge dedt of gratitude to their loyal fanbase for supporting them over the years. If you don't have fans of any quantity (not including, friends, friends of family, family, friends' friends and those who fancy the band) you haven't made a mark. Can all those who are doing it for fun please leave and those interested in making a career of it stay back after class.
So to get a fanbase you need to get out into the big bad harsh world that takes no prisoners. Here you will tell the crowd to listen because your music (no-one elses) is going to blow them away. Your music is the best, the greatest, you are gods of Rock & Roll (not the support act or cover band). Your work sets all trends, makes people stand up and listen and the people will speak unto heaven saying, "This is the sound we know and love and this sound belongs to ---------------------------------(insert your bands name here if you think it fits).
Don't be offended- BE INSPIRED!:D
Dude, it takes a lot to annoy me, but remarks like, "those doing it for fun please leave", i dont know if you play,
but if you dont want to see covers, DONT come to our gigs, you have your opinion fine, but that is something you should keep to yourself, ive been playing for years and am proud of my abilities and that of my fellow band members,
i have played in numerous bands, with members from boss hogg and estrella and many more, but if you dont care about cover bands, fine, too bad is all i can say, but thats where i end the line, youve pretty much made out that what we do doesnt count, well if thats the case, to bad for you, i know many a person who would disagree with your statement,
nutty da drummer
07-Dec-05, 23:41
i totally agree reev, im in some bands, and i dont play to get noticed, i play cause there so fun to play in. im in 2 jazz bandfs, and playing drums with jazz is awesome. im in a wind band, you really think ill be the next famous travis barker or lars in that? no chance, just fantastic to play in, so if you enjoy the music and the playing, why shouldnt you stay at it? whats stopping people? nothing, so if you "do it for fun," dont leave. your happy, crowd will probably be happy so its all good.
ben... you can't tell the man to keep his opinion to himself just because you disagree.
its a message board on the internet which allows free flowing discussion and allows people to voice their opinion. whether you like it or dislike it... its pretty much tough. people have the right to criticise your band. your in the "public eye" i suppose. no matter how good or bad he thinks what your doing is and no matter how good/bad what you think your doing is, you should take the criticism on the chin.
telling him that his opinion counts for nothing and he's talking rubbish is an arrogant statement. if someone praises your band, you'll accept it with great delight... everyone does, i ain't just singling you out. what i think makes a band stronger, and quite possibly a person... is the ability to accept criticism of their own work
you don't seem to be coping well with this...
ps.. why the hell are you never on msn?
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, someone who agrees with my statement, cheers dude
i dont seem to be taking this well, to be told that what we do doesnt count isnt a very nice thing,
this guy seems to be harking on a lot about cover bands being pointless, well, im allowed to be annoyed at that, why, cause thats rubbish, absoloute crap,
i can agree to disagree on certain subjects but the paying public tend to pay to see a band play things they know, i know this due to how many paying gigs ive played in my lifetime A LOT, so yes im annoyed, what i do does cpount, and to be badmouythed to that degree is nasty and not needed, if thats the kind of criticism im supposed to take then id rather get none, yes we are in the publics eye and are effectively cannon fodder but what was said is definetaly not constructive criticism, he has basically stated we arent neede3d or wanted, which i have already said, plenty of people would disagree with THAT statement
i don't see what you do as not counting, as i've said before, and stated in a few of the recent posts, is that you should try your own thing out on the public. i think you guys have built up a strong list of cover songs. ok, i don't really like them all that much, but hey, times change. i ain't your one and only audience. you guys have the ability to perform to a higher level, why not do a mixture of covers and originals?
you can say its crap, like i said, i think your being arrogant to his opinion. he's willing to read yours without telling you what your saying is utter crap.
take a chill pill, see past your anger and read what he's saying.
Uppiebalad
07-Dec-05, 23:59
Oh but I do care about the work of cover bands, it's just that at the moment I'm only wanting to deal with the subject of bands that want to get somewhere by hopefully performing their own work. I'm fully aware that there are cover bands out there who do brilliant covers.
I'm not a fan of Line-Dancing but i have spoken in favour of it during production talks. I also asked a collegue on the board of Caithness Arts to speak up for all local bands and he has done so very much favourably for all of you with my full backing. All classrooms have pupils who want to learn and others who don't share the same interest even within the same field. It is obstructive to the course for such people to remain in the room. You are interested in cover work whilst other bands express the desire to perform original music. Are you trying to put them off? If so you are doing no service for your fellow musicians. I am involved with performing arts of all kinds and I'm here trying to show my support of those wanting to show their talent to the world. Give me some time instead of jumping on any word thats seems against you, and you will see me get round to the subject of cover bands and it won't be unfavourable.
relax, chill, take a nap. because all you need to know is that your are good at what you do.
nutty da drummer
08-Dec-05, 00:00
yeah, duress have got a strong set list, i like them personally, but i think it would be even better if they played some own stuff, thugh doing there own style of music eg: sharply dressed men was total awesome, i thought it was cool, your own touch and thats what i thought was great. and id love to hear some your own stuff,that would be total awesome cause if it was anything like your own style when you did the covers, itd be so kewl!
i'm kinda unsure which,side of this beabte i lie on, i agree a lot with jeid ANd nutty, i agree that playing originl material, is a major boost to a band andi feel itoften helps brign the band more together making them a tighter unit coz writign their own material takes team effort it means comprimise ti menas playing off each others personal inluences and tastes, and turnign it into somethign whoelly different, sometiems far exceeding the bands expectations, in my old band i always felt one of our strognest songs was oenof the last we got to write because we all came toghether, and very memebrs style was present yet it went together as a solid decent song. but at the saem tiem i agree it is alway godo fun to undulge in a little bit of fun and jsut get up and put your own spin on some of your favourite songs because well for me at least, learnign to play songs i love enhances my appreciation of that song, and i also feel that covers can be a good way for a band to find their feet, to build up a bitof confidence in playing together also sometiems if a band start their life as a covers band, and ppl ge to knwo them for the covers it can soemtiems act as a pleasant surprise to fans whenoriginal material does begin to surface.a think nutty has a good approach to it,he's samplig a lot of styles by drummin all over the place, and i think thats what the likes of caithness needs is ppl dipping into a range of styles and u kow maybe workign 3 or 4 bands at once, maybe contributign soemthign different to each band, so that u can btoh indulge your creative ability and lvoe of covers,so efr example even thoughi am part of 2 bands myself i'm still gonna whore myself abotu musically, and get my teeth into as much of the developign scene up here as i can, so jeid if ya still fancy a jam sumtiemi'm still more than up for it
nutty da drummer
08-Dec-05, 00:28
yeah, but i ahve to admit, covers are good, but seeing the odd song thats there own, thats what i think would make duress great. i like there covers, total love "hero by foo fighters" i think thats great, and they are a great band, but after listening to there own style on peoples songs, theyd be brilliant if they played some of there own stuff, with there style of music, which im sure they would pull of greatly. but im on know ones side, im just giving opinions.
nutty da drummer
08-Dec-05, 00:28
yeah, but i ahve to admit, covers are good, but seeing the odd song thats there own, thats what i think would make duress great. i like there covers, total love "hero by foo fighters" i think thats great, and they are a great band, but after listening to there own style on peoples songs, theyd be brilliant if they played some of there own stuff, with there style of music, which im sure they would pull of greatly. but im on know ones side, im just giving opinions.
.......Well thanks for that observation, it is true that we all enjoy compliments and have difficulty with what we may consider to be unjustified negativity but i suppose we have to take the rough with the smooth.
That doesnt mean that i agree with previous comments i have already disagreed with. It does however seem to me that some of the comments made can only lead me to the conclusion that those having posted them consider the Caithness music going public incapable of making their own minds up. Gig goers vote with their feet and if they dont like what is being offerred they dont go to those gigs.
It would also appear that we have some contributors who are setting themselves up as our musical guardians and would like to tell us what we like and what we want. Or maybe that is the Royal "WE"
Yes you are right our local film makers do not copy films and try to do their own original material but do you think that that could possibly be down to their lack of equipment rather than lack of talent. Imitation is apparently the sincerest form of flattery and the ability to imitate a respected band and songs you particularly like is possibly a little easier than recreating "Gladiator" for example.
thats the idea scridge, start off with covers and build it up from their. I'm sure duress have a wide range of influences, just as your old band did. I haven't really spoken to any of the band much in recent times, but i remember that ben was really into heavier stuff, but he also dips into nice acoustic numbers and even dance music. bones was really into metallica i think, but i could be wrong. Richard... well, i dunno about him. Dave always loved Travis Barker and i'm sure he's still his hero to an extent... he always had a wide musical spectrum which the band never touched on.
a wide range of influences like this band have could lead for some really interesting original stuff. i'm sure that by exploiting them and their potential it could be really interesting. this of course is down to the band. I'm quite gutted richard got banned, cos i'd like his opinion on the matter too. same with dave and bones!
i'm sure it'd bring the band closer and make them a tighter live unit too. the local music scene needs bands of their calibre to push themselves and contribute. this community needs a scene so badly. Duress could be one of the big players in that i think....
Scridge... a jam could still be on the cards. i know someone who wants a jam
nutty da drummer
08-Dec-05, 00:35
dude, im not setting you up as your local gaurdians. i genually like duress and i wana know if youv got any of your own music, and if you do, when or where can we hear it? cause i like your style and i like your performance. i think its awesome!and your own styles great which is why im interested in hearing your own stuff.
its not a case of taking sides nutty, its all about voicing opinions... its not the world... or caithness vs duress. not at all. i've always thought that it'd be cool to see those guys do their own stuff.
Reev, nobody is asking you to agree with previous comments, not at all.
take everything with an open mind. Uppie is simply hoping that you can realise your potential and get out there and put some of your own stuff to the public. hell, one song would be a start!
that response wasnt aimed at what you said my friend
nutty da drummer
08-Dec-05, 00:38
yaeh, and youv got the potential, your one of the few bands that do in caithness, and i think you should use it. your really good on stage and hearing your own stuff would be gread, seriously consider it, even just the odd song every so ofter, that would be total awesome, hearing the actual band doing exactly what they want and making it sound exactly how you want it
Hmmmmm.......You seem to think i have missed your point, i do not for one second think this is the world against Duress, I do realise that you are asking us to do original songs and that is something that we will do when we are ready, and in our own time.
You may have missed our recent accoustic performance where we did do one original number, admittedly written by my dad and his mate, and yes, it did go down a storm. I am not missing your point but you are clearly missing mine.
Bands can perform covers and believe it or not, enjoy what they are doing. The buzz is in the performing in front of an audience who appreciate what you are doing. You can please some of the people some of the time but you cant please all of the people all of the time no matter how hard you try.
Please take my point, that bands can enjoy what they do playing covers and importantly an audience, even a Caithness one can enjoy a band doing what they do. we will have to agree to disagree on this matter
and once again nutty drummer, that isnt aimed at you, but i understand your point, and yes, we do have our own stuff, but at this time, that isnt what we are doing
i'm taking that reev, i am, i know from my playing days with yourself that its cool to play covers. i was in that band from when did we start... november?(i remember it being damn cold anyway) until march? maybe april 2002. its now 2005 and fastly approaching 2006. the spine of the band (you and dave) have been there since the begining. I'm also aware that you added the other two members of the band over the past couple of years. point taken on that too
i would of just that that having been in some form of existence since 2002... now would be the time to show your true colours, hence my reasons for pushing it so much....
you guys have been around for ages, you guys can be one of the influential bands on the "scene".
i hope you just do it sooner rather than later
so we agree to disagree then,
i get what you guys are saying, but you have to get, that what im saying, as one of the people in question, is that,
like i have said already, at this moment in time, its not what we want to do
and im leaving it at that
fair enough, good luck with the covers
as long as that isnt sarcasm jeid, thanks
of course not..................!
tierce-de-picardie
08-Dec-05, 19:05
I agree very much with early posts that bands should start out on covers for recognition then begin to slip in their own material and slowly build this up. Ive got a few things to say about other posts although the post has been removed. K dragon stated that i am not interestd in doing my own material atall and want to do covers covers and more covers but obviously solo work doesnt count ive got about 4 albums worth of music ive written and recorded myself sitting at home and im currently workin on about 6 different pieces of music one of them a full orchestral gutiar concerto various other pieces a gutiar violin duet and a piece for trumpet so i really dont see how this can be seen as being narrow minded about doing my own material. right thats a bit irrelavant to this current post but i thought ide bring it up.
I know from experience that going out and doing origional work striaght off doesnt work. i agree with ben if they wish to do cover then they should do what they wish. uppiebalad seems to have the impression that all musicians want to make it big. And yes its nice of him expressing his views and giving advice and so forth but really if ben wanted the advice he would ask for it surly i think most musicians know what they want and if they really want to make it big they will try there best to do so. Uppiebalad if you love your music so much and are so opiniated abotu what everyone else is doin then why dont you get a band together and do entirely your own music. Duress obviously do not want to do that. But i do agree strongly on that duress should give their own material a shot because whats there to loose? And jeid you feel strongly that there is no music scene in caithness anymore why dont you instead of sitting on this expressing your opinions why dont you do something about it organise a caithness music comitee os somthing that would be an interesting challenge for yourself. thats only a suggestion of course.
Uppiebalad
08-Dec-05, 21:46
[quote=tierce-de-picardie]I agree very much with early posts that bands should start out on covers for recognition then begin to slip in their own material and slowly build this up.
Great, excellent idea- go for it because you have to learn music before you can take it in your direction.
doesnt count ive got about 4 albums worth of music ive written and recorded myself sitting at home and im currently workin on about 6 different pieces of music one of them a full orchestral gutiar concerto various other pieces a gutiar violin duet and a piece for trumpet so i really dont see how this can be seen as being narrow minded about doing my own material. right thats a bit irrelavant to this current post but i thought ide bring it up.
Great, excellent, keep up the good work- you must be doing all this for some reason or another???
I know from experience that going out and doing origional work striaght off doesnt work.
Very true and I don't know any band that didn't start without first playing someone elses work.
uppiebalad seems to have the impression that all musicians want to make it big.
Actually I don't hold such impression but I am aware that all bands have an aspect of competition with one another- hence Battle Of The Bands. Now who here hasn't played that gig? (I know some of you won't have but...)
if ben wanted the advice
Ben was never specified as a destination for any of my advice, in fact no one individual has been approached as such.
Uppiebalad if you love your music so much and are so opiniated
Am I not allowed to be opinionated as you are being right here.
then why dont you get a band together and do entirely your own music.
Because I prefer to write the material.
Duress obviously do not want to do that. But i do agree strongly on that duress should give their own material a shot because whats there to loose?
Nothing to loose, only more credit to be gained and more respect (even though they have plenty) for their skills as musicians.
And jeid you feel strongly that there is no music scene in caithness anymore why dont you instead of sitting on this expressing your opinions why dont you do something about it organise a caithness music comitee os somthing that would be an interesting challenge for yourself. thats only a suggestion of course.
Now a music committee, I saw one of those once- gee, the backstabbing and eye clawing that went on. Do you really think that's a good idea? What would it's aims be? What would it be doing for young bands?
More please!:cool:
Doing your own stuff is not as easy as Just doin it like that. Making a tune is hard. Making our tune Inn a Dream took 3 days strait hard work. days lasting from 12 to 7 at night! Some people can;t just crap out lyrics. Although some can. I was in a band a while ago with a very talented young adult. ( K Dragon ). The band went by the name of " Fear Of Faith ". and We had a full set list out own material. And Just comeing of the mark with your own material just does not work. We got a wow responce cause we had so much of our own work.. But it wasnt what people always want to hear. We never had no1 dance to our music. And to have people dancing to music your making is just a great feeling. I finally have that and it feels awesome! And when you play your own song that people soon begin to recognize and they dance to it ( Even if they were a drunk crowd and didnt care ) Still.... Totally Awesome! I feel opinions are beging to get out of hand! People in my case arent looking to make it big. For i am only 15 years of age. And yes you may say AIM HIGH,. I'm in music .. In a band.. Purly for .. " FUn "
(tierce-de-picardie)Joe i'm guessing? thanks for joining in the conversation.
Setting up a Caithness music committee sounds like an awesome idea. But as Uppie already stated, what would we ideally aim to achieve? this idea interests me greatly. if we can setup an aim of the committee and actually get together around a table and speak like adults then it could work. there seems to be interest finally brewing within this little community at long last!
how about instead of voicing all our opinions on a subject as trivial as this, why not put some of our energy into something that could indeed benefit the community, the music "scene" and all of our talented musicians.
It'd be a challenge, it could work, it could fail... but it'd be worth trying. if we get the right people involved it could be hugely beneficial to all.
Jack, your right, it is hard work writing songs, for some people, it comes naturally. i envy those people. its worth the time and effort though. the results may not please all, but its all risk i guess. I for one wouldn't be in an all out originals band straight away. That'd be something i'd aim for. Hopefully, if all goes well, i can get a band together at the begining of the year and be playing a gig or so by summer, time will tell on that one
The Pepsi Challenge
09-Dec-05, 00:37
Songwriting, eh? You might want to read this, from a talented chap called Craig Weldon. He talk sense.
The Theory of Songwriting
by Craig Weldon
Coming up with a good song is little more than coming up with a nice chord change, a mean riff, or a neat rhyming couplet, right? After all, listen to songs like The Chemical Brothers' 'Block Rockin' Beats,' or Daft Punk's 'Around the World.' What could be easier than coming up with something similar yourself? And yet, when notes go down on paper/tape/hard drive, suddenly something seems missing.
I'll tell you what is missing, and it is what separates amateur songwriters from the professionals: arrangement. The good news is that, unlike inspiration or hard work, it can be learned.
The first thing I learned in writing this little article is how very little theory I know myself. So with that caveat out of the way, let us begin…
The Golden Rules
The most important thing to learn, codified by The KLF in musician's bible 'The Manual,' [available on this site from the Articles page] are the Golden Rules. Everyone knows the golden rules intuitively, whether they can write them down or not, for modern rock and pop is based so solidly on the foundation of these rules that even the most bizarre and fresh sounding songs often follow, when listened to analytically, these rules. You'll be wanting to know these rules then. You already know, but might not have seen them written down before:
Short intro
Verse1
Chorus
Verse2
Chorus
mid song break
Chorus
Chorus
End
Do not break these rules until your arrangement skills are good enough for you to be confident to do so. Plenty of great musicians have broken the rules to stunning effect, (Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody' springs immediately to mind) but bedroom studios are littered with the corpses of songs which were forced into unnatural, 4-verse-no-break song structures. What a waste. Follow the rules, and suddenly everything becomes easier. This doesn't mean you are restricted to a Stock, Aitken & Waterman style straightjacket for the rest of your songwriting life. But how can you break the rules when you don't know what they are?
Killer choruses
The next thing to learn is chord progression. Usually you will have come up with something that sounds nice and you want to take it further and make a whole song out of it. Do not ruin your good work by making the verse so different from the chorus that they sound like they belong in different songs. If you have a good sounding chorus, perhaps along the basis of:
F C F Bb F C F C
Why not try for the verse:
F Bb F C F Bb F C?
It looks so obvious when written down. And yet so many bands torture themselves in the quest to be different with impossible looking chord structures like:
A verse of: Bb C D Bb C G Bb C D
A bridge of: Bb7 Am7 G#7
A chorus of: Em9 Am7 Em9 Am7 Em7 Em7 Am Am7-Bm7
Do yourself - and your audience - a favour. Keep it simple. Complicated chord structures certainly sounds good when done right - a listen to the Beatles, Stevie Wonder, or Miles Davis confirms that - but, like the Golden Rule, it is easier to master the simple stuff first. A simple chord structure keeps the verses and chorus more coherent than just about anything else.
Writing the Words
Which segues neatly on to the next subject - vocals. The most important part of a song is the vocal melody - it wouldn't be called a song, after all, if it were any different (your intention may be to create a song with no words, in which case this point does not apply to you). But why sing at all unless you have something interesting to say? What is it you are trying to say in this song you have just written? Is it a random collection of bad rhymes, put together to fit a melody or chord structure? Time to change that.
Are there any good phrases in the song you have that could be salvaged, give you an idea for a completely different song? Hear anything that tickled your fancy from your local patter merchant down the pub last night? Anything about the human condition that needs to be said?
Just remember that no-one cares if your partner has just left you, or that warfare and famine are getting you down, unless you can connect to them in a new and refreshing way. Vocals are the one place where it is good to be different, to be daring, to open your heart. Repetition in vocals is ok, as long as it is of something interesting.
There is another potential threat to vocals, one which can enhance your words in underlined red ink but if done wrongly, will dash all your hard work on grafting a cute rhyme to naught - band dynamics.
Unfortunately for most bands, especially live, the vocal becomes the least audible part of the performance, as each instrument is cranked to full for maximum effect. The best way to go is usually the opposite. The vocals should be taken as the most important part, and everything else should flow from that. If you have taken the bother to write lyrics for your songs, it is only fair to let the audience hear them. It is here that the cruel irony of the rhythm guitar comes into play. The singer/songwriter often writes their songs with the aid of a guitar, but this occupies the same frequency range as the typical male voice, and many a lead singer will be drowned out by a noise often of his own devising - the rhythm guitar.(Female guitarists can keep playing rhythm). However, if the drums and bass are doing their job correctly, there should be no need for a rhythm guitar to keep the band tight. Which leads us to arrangement.
Making the arrangement
The fundamental point to note about arrangement - apart from the Golden Rule above - is that each instrument has a different frequency range. This is an important point - because vocals are usually the most important part of a performance, you don't want anything else with a similar frequency range, like guitars, keyboards, or brass instruments, interfering at the same time. You could turn the volume of these instruments down for a performance, but a more effective technique is to sparsen out the arrangement.
There is no rule I have seen written down that says that every instrument must play all the time. Indeed, the very opposite is often preferable - bringing in instruments only when they are needed, and dropping them when they are not, will increase the impact not only of the individual instruments, but of the song as a whole. A great riff sounds even better when it is not having to compete with the vocals. Listen to the Kinks' 'All Day and All of the Night.' When the vocal line is continuous, the guitar is innocuous - only coming on with the great riff when the vocals are broken or static. This is the technique of 'call and answer' we hear all the time on blues records (Call:I woke up this morning. Answer:da na na na na nah). Another old trick is to bring on all the bells and whistles for a chorus or grand finale to a song, and that is only possible when something is kept in reserve at the start.
Another technique you might want to try is to have each of your instruments playing a different melody to the main one. If the bass, lead, rhythm, and keyboards all shadow the same chords, the effect will be far reduced compared to just two instruments playing counterpoint. Try a different, funkier line for the bass compared to the other instruments. Let instruments in the same range as the vocals stab or play a continuous drone.
Mood music
Finally,we come to the mood of a song. Just by listening to other songs, we get an idea of how our song should sound. A reflective song should have a quiet accompaniment, a youthful song a loud, bouncy one. A serious point is usually better made in reflective mode, but subverting the mood and making it bright and breezy can bring an added dimension - think of OMD's 'Enola Gay'. Certain sounds lend certain atmospheres. Keyboard pads or flanged, reverberating guitars are atmospheric. Punk guitar and frantic drums are aggressive. A funky bass makes you want to dance. Phil Collins style drums are the least likely to make you want to dance and want to listen to the words, while Clyde Stubblefield (James Brown Band) style drums are the opposite.
So that's the end of this little ramble. Let's recap:
Keep the arrangement simple
Use the Golden Rules
Say something meaningful/interesting in your vocals
Let the vocals be heard.
I hope you've learnt something, even if the only concrete bit of good advice is the Golden Rules. But remember that though you can learn theory and arrangement, you can't learn original inspiration. If you have something to say, keep it simple, keep it unique and true to yourself. Listen to the people you respect, but ignore their advice completely if you disagree with it inside. As the artist Georgia O'Keeffe once said: "I can't do the job I want, I can't vote for what I want, and I sure can't sleep with who I want. I'd be a damn fool not to paint what I want." And perhaps that is the best advice of all.
crazy chick
09-Dec-05, 00:40
Every1 has 2 start of sumwere and covers are a great way to get a following and doing your own stuff takes alot of time and effort
The Pepsi Challenge
09-Dec-05, 00:43
Then again, you could ignore Craig's advice, and follow your true punk spirit i.e. play from the heart and not worry about whether it's any good or not. You'll free liberated and from that - like so many other influential bands that started out as punk acts (Joy Division, Gary Numan, Magazine, The Cure, Simple Minds etc.) - you'll start to develop your own sound and direction. Have no fear is what I'm saying.
crazy chick
09-Dec-05, 00:51
true rock spirit and doing music professionally aint easy like its made out
who said anything about professionally? half of the 70's punk bands could hardly play their instruments. Sid Vicious from the Sex Pistols was garbage on bass!
they had passion though, and that showed
Uppiebalad
09-Dec-05, 02:09
I think all of us here understand that writing anything can be difficult but the more you do a thing the more you can work it out. In learning music first off we would obviously start with someone elses work so that can find out about notes, keys and all the rest. The more diverse our chioce of music the more we see different arangements and set ups. In a short time you can listen to any tune for the first time and step ahead of the music predicting it's line of projection. Movies are the same, characters introduced at the beginning and the scene is set for what is to unfold. Music helps us to enterprit what is about to happen on the screen. These formuli are mostly logical common sense which we pick up with experience. The prediction principles apply to our everyday lives. As we become more experienced we find ourselves able to begin creating our own material.
Music for example is created from a process of taking a start sound, a note, and stepping up or down to a different note. The tune can be changed depending on how many steps you take in either direction, how long each step takes, the sequence in which the steps occur and so on.
J S Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D' is only a handful of notes played fast so it sounds complicated but when slowed down there really isn't much to it.
I appreciate the difficulties in creating a song or story having written a lot of material for national press, tv, theatre and websites. I've created some peices lashed out in a few days, sometimes a couple of months and often from a handful of notes and ideas in my head that have been hanging around for years.
A thought for you all in playing your own music; take to mind that Caithness people are very scared to express themselves for fear of ridicule. So if you play one of your songs and don't get the hoped for response it is probly because the audience are too scared to admit they liked it in case anyone dissagrees with them. This is why I have expressed the importance of taking your work outside of Caithness (when possible) so that people who don't care or don't have to be drunk before they'll dance, can give you a genuine response. Here's where you should be making use of the websites you are all making. Photo's fine- but get your music on there as well because it's not just Caithness tuning in on the web. We all have or have access to recording equipment of a high enough recording standard to produce demo tracks. You don't need to book a recording studio these days and you'll find that many bands that are being noticed are putting their work out on the web.
Running out of ideas for songs! have you ever taken a really good look at what exists around you in Caithness. There's plenty to write about- not every song has to be about love or issues.
Have a look here; www.livetodiesociety.funtigo.com (http://www.livetodiesociety.funtigo.com) even though it's amateur movies stuff, it's only 3 months work and now it's on the web. I understand from these guys that the work is drawn from all kinds of things about Caithness and life as they see it.
I know creation isn't always an overnight thing and many people find it more difficult than others but you all know it's not impossible.:)
if i didn't know better, i'd say you were involved in the Live To Die Society
seeing how this convo has gone, i still disagree with you guys about "having" to progress on to original material, the majority seem to think its a necessity, i however dont, but we are allowed to have diff opinions
tierce-de-picardie
09-Dec-05, 17:36
not all origional material is ideal for public playing. the music i write at home on my own is all sound track film style music or neo classical shred style music which is not really for public performance. other types of muisc i play i would be willing to perform but its finding people to accomapany me because i write music for all instruments.
I dont see why a music commitee would turn out into a bunch of backstabbers. a commitee would be good organising gigs or workshops for the youger folk to influence them so as to increase the music scene if we motivate children and teens they will become more pro-active and a music scene may apear. fund raising could be organised to then pay for small concerts locally to pay for venue sound engineer ect or even hire bands from other area of scotland that will add a wider variety to our area.
Jied seems to think a commitee would be good aswell. even if it is jsut meetings to go a talk about music it wouldnt have to be formal just somwhere to duscuss. again this is just a suggestion.
Uppiebalad
09-Dec-05, 20:13
Sorry Jeid but I'm not part of the livetodiesociety but I have been supplying information and advice to assist their work. It was through my advice that they work with Cinema For Thurso Group and together they are working hard on several large projects which are taking shape rather nicely. They, like Boss Hogg, Estrella and so on, are making the right moves within their field of interest.
I strongly suggest Tierce, that you contact them, I'm pretty sure they'de be very interested in your work for their films. It would help them expand music access. At the moment they are licensed to use any British recording but that still leaves limitations on soundtrack content.
Reev, I don't feel that ALL bands should progress to doing their own stuff- only bands that want to make a carreer of their interest should persue such or the quiet individual who totally does it for their own pleasure.
If a music committee of some sort was to start up it would have to have some kind of aim otherwise it would be as pointless as a circus skills workshop. There must be an ultimate goal to be acheived and then sustained. Young musicians need encouragement and support where ever they wish to take their talents. Many people are invloved in things as children but become disinterested as they grow older. An active music group should perhaps be like an amateur dramatics or film making group, working together over periods of time to pull together shows to perform to the public. A music showcase should enable bands to demonstrate how well they can play any music and also show that they can make their own.
It is not nessecary for all bands to progress to their own music but it is helpful to the music community as a whole as well as satisfying to the listener if they do progress. And progress would be the right word for it!
Uppiebalad
09-Dec-05, 20:27
And just thinking a little further, and this may surprise you, but the if you are going to set up a committee then you should look for people who love music of all kinds but who are NOT INVOLVED directly in music production, performance or marketing therof. However they should have managerial skills, good people skills, be open to new ideas and inovations and be informed by feedback and guidance from musicians and listeners as well as public opinion. (remember when you gig you are selling yourselves to the public).
If a committee or board of directors has more than one member from the same group or organisation even if the intent isn't there, gravity will take hold and a bias will develope and then look out- back stabbing and all the rest. The music business is no less itchy than ball room dancing.
well, as there is a meeting on wednesday, i guess we can make an attendance and see what people have to say. it would be a good start for the local scene.
i'm sure there's lots of goals that could be achieved with the right sponsorship etc
make an attendance at that meeting and have your say
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