On Yer Bike Tebbit

[TBH]

Norman 'Nutcase' Tebbit reckons that children should be taught how to use firearms saying he believed allowing boys to use firearms would help tackle gun crime and anti-social behaviour. He is an absolute muppet in need of psychiatric help.

[northener]

Norman 'Nutcase' Tebbit reckons that children should be taught how to use firearms saying he believed allowing boys to use firearms would help tackle gun crime and anti-social behaviour. He is an absolute muppet in need of psychiatric help.


Hmmmm....I think I disagree TBH.

I would guess he's referring to the discipline, accountability and respect that being a responsible firearms user entails. Having said that, I've not read the piece - so I could be way off beam here.

.

[TBH]

Hmmmm....I think I disagree TBH.

I would guess he's referring to the discipline, accountability and respect that being a responsible firearms user entails. Having said that, I've not read the piece - so I could be way off beam here.

.Here is a link (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/33667/Dunblane-gun-lesson-fury) to the full article.

[percy toboggan]

Guns have no place in any civic society and Norman Tebbit should know better. I'm all for thinking outside the box though and defend his right to formulate his opinions and say whatever he likes.

There was a time when I despised Tebbit and all he stood for, now I'd rather like to have a few pints with 'im.

[TBH]

Guns have no place in any civic society and Norman Tebbit should know better. I'm all for thinking outside the box though and defend his right to formulate his opinions and say whatever he likes.

There was a time when I despised Tebbit and all he stood for, now I'd rather like to have a few pints with 'im.It is true that he has a right to his own opinions percy and defending that right helps you to protect your own.
He is still a misguided nutcase In my opinion.

[northener]

Well, I think the Express has done a good job of doing the usual tabloid stunt of homing in on the most emotive aspect and putting the whole issue into a simplistic "guns are bad/they are all murderers/outrage/let's not get involved in intelligent debate" article.

The article itself says nothing of worth. They have asked a sector of the community for their opinion who will, quite understandably, have a hatred for any dealings with firearms. Simply so they can get the maximum emotive impact for the piece.

Typical tabloid journalism that tells us nothing.

.

[percy toboggan]

[quote=TBH;333746]It is true that he has a right to his own opinions percy and defending that right helps you to protect your own.
quote]

and yours

[TBH]

[quote=TBH;333746]It is true that he has a right to his own opinions percy and defending that right helps you to protect your own.
quote]

and yoursAt first glance I thought you typed UP[lol]

[SandTiger]

Thanks for the link TBH, heard about this elsewhere and meant to look at it...

He [Tebbit] said: “Kids should go out on shoots. It gives them a sense of excitement – and kids, particularly young boys, have a need for a degree of violence.

Sheer class! Can we expect to see these "shoots" springing up over Hackney, Mosside and other inner city areas soon? :roll:

Maybe teaching bomb making to youngsters will also help combat the current 'war on terrorism'.

I've got absolutely nothing against guns in there proper place but fail to see how this fluffy thinking will benefit what is generally an inner city problem or could even pass the starting gate in addressing any problems - Ramblings of an old fool :lol:

[j4bberw0ck]

I'm with Northener (but I've read the article - typical Daily Wind-Em-Up).

Let kids use real guns in controlled surroundings (like the used to do with the old Army cadets) and instill in them the need for care, consideration, looking after and maintaining a piece of engineering magnificence - in other words, something that "concerned parents" and "concerned politicians" and "concerned schools" have all conspired to remove from them in the name of "safety": A sense of responsibility, for self and for others around, and for a sophisticated piece of equipment.

Take them out rough shooting; let them shoot a duck, a goose, a pheasant, a rabbit - pluck / skin, prepare and eat it, and so get the idea that killing something isn't like a computer game, it's about taking life so there'd better be some damn good reason to do it - like eating what they shoot.

Kids grow up these days with so much held tantalisingly away from them - computer game shoot-em-ups, no one bats an eyelid at. So they see the excitement of the weapons in a safe environment, but have no resource to be able to see how it relates to the next day in school. I can't help but think that since some inner-city kids are first coming across handguns and the like at age 8 and 9, it's too young to know the difference between the game and the reality instinctively, unless it's been trained into them.

Kids need to be exposed to aggression and competition in (relative) safety for their emotional development. All the higher animals' young exhibit levels of aggression and competition and even violence in their play. It's natural; what's unnatural is sanitising everything because Mummy-Wummies Against Everything That's Not Fluffy-Wuffy think it should be so, just because they're mothers. As though there's something holy or infallible about being a mother :roll: - after all, it's not as though you need any skills to become one, is it? :lol:. If conception was a skilled occupation then there'd be a lot more 16, 17 and 18 year old chavs scratching their heads and a lot fewer pushing buggies.

I suppose it's inevitable that the Dunblane pressure groups should be brought into play by the press. But they're venting emotion (and quite probably being selectively quoted) rather than doing anything that might be confused with thinking rationally.

YMMV.

[Pouleriscaig]

Have to say I disagree with the the previous writer in the thread.

I think the failure to ban ownership of guns outright after Dunblane was a missed opportunity, and as a result gun crime will become more and more of a norm in the UK.
I don't think that is a position that is underpinned by an emotive response to gun crime, but is a practical step to eradicating it.

I think to advocate that kids should learn to use them is a recipe for more and not less gun crime.

[orkneylass]

Have to say I disagree with the the previous writer in the thread.

I think the failure to ban ownership of guns outright after Dunblane was a missed opportunity, and as a result gun crime will become more and more of a norm in the UK.
I don't think that is a position that is underpinned by an emotive response to gun crime, but is a practical step to eradicating it.

I think to advocate that kids should learn to use them is a recipe for more and not less gun crime.

I had not realised that gun crime was carried out by legally held firearms - I guess if it has nothing to do with illegally held firearms, drugs, gang culture etc, then the answer will be to ban firearms. A very practical step, or a practicable step???? Getreal. Has banning drugs stopped people from using them?

[j4bberw0ck]

I think to advocate that kids should learn to use them is a recipe for more and not less gun crime.

Perhaps you can explain for me, then, why at a time when there's less chance than ever for kids to become familiar with guns in a controlled environment, we have more and more and more gun crime involving not legally held firearms, but illegally held firearms, modified, or brought in to the UK from outside.

If you go to Luxembourg or several other countries in Europe, you can buy firearms over the counter because we're all in the EU. Then stick it in your bag and drive back to the UK. Chances of being stopped? Almost nil.

You're not thinking it through, pouleriscaig. How many kids shot each other, in the early 90's, before Dunblane? Almost none.

[northener]

Have to say I disagree with the the previous writer in the thread.

I think the failure to ban ownership of guns outright after Dunblane was a missed opportunity, and as a result gun crime will become more and more of a norm in the UK.
I don't think that is a position that is underpinned by an emotive response to gun crime, but is a practical step to eradicating it.

I think to advocate that kids should learn to use them is a recipe for more and not less gun crime.


It is now virtually impossible for any member of the public to legally own a semi-automatic pistol or revolver in this country. The only exceptions are black powder weapons and single shot .22 target pistols - though I stand to be corrected on this.

Perhaps you could tell me why gun crime has rocketed in the post-Dunblane years, after a massive amount of guns were confisticated from law-abiding, responsible owners?

Where do you think these guns are coming from and who do you think is using them? Certainly not the law-abiding public. They lost their guns!

The only members of our society that have handguns in any numbers - excluding authorised government users- are the criminals.

How would you propose we deal with that?

.

[JAWS]

The only thing the ban on hand guns did was to remove them from law abiding, form filling, decent and honest people.
The fact that Northern Constabulary had virtually a 100% compliance from such Firearms Certificate Holders says that.
I wonder how many firearms illegally held by those who had no such records kept of their possession were handed in? Any advance on not a single one anybody?

Dunblane is always used to justify such bans. Well, the person concerned had had his application for a certificate objected to because of the manner of his behaviour and the objections were ignored.
Some of the guns he had were not so registered and were therefore in his possession illegally.
In other words even with a ban in place he would still have had them and been able to use them. In that respect simply banning firearms would have made no difference at all to what happened.

Since the ban on Handguns gun crime has consistently risen year after year.
In Manchester alone there are seven firearms incidents every single day, all involving illegally held firearms. Seven a day every day in just one area so think how many there must be every day nationwide because Manchester is not all that different from other large cities.
Twenty five years ago, before the ban on hand guns, even to suggest that sort of figure might ever occur would have been considered an outrageous suggestion.
The ban certainly didn’t stop the murders of young Jesse James in Manchester or of even younger Rhys Jones in Liverpool.

If Norman Tebbit's idea is so ridiculous then why, in the 1950s, a time when the majority of young men had been trained to use guns, was there not wholesale slaughter throughout the length and breadth of Britain?

Just one small question about the relationship between legal gun ownership and crime. Why is it that Switzerland, which has a far higher proportion of it's population as gun owners then even America, does not suffer horrendous problems with gun crime. According to those who relate legal gun ownership to gun crime it most certainly should have!

People who are intent on committing Gun Crime do not tend to go to the Authorities to conveniently register the fact that they even have guns never mind give them a list of what they are, including serial number etc., and produce them for inspection. Well, not in the real world anyway!
"Can I register this Uzi with you please, Mr Policeman, only I might be using it later to wipe out a rival gang leader, sir!"
Happens all the time, Guv, honest it does!

[Pouleriscaig]

I'm not so sure that you are right on all the points you make.

I believe but happy to concede if I am wrong, that most gun crime is committed with Air Guns.
I also believe there is a massive problem with guns stolen from people who have them under licence.

I don't disagree at all that people obtain guns unlawfully from abroad, but I think that unless we remove guns from lawful circulation, we only add significantly to the problem.

Naturally I accept some may hold totally different viewpoints without getting personal-guess that's the good thing about discussion boards.

[northener]

On Air guns - wrong.

On stolen licenced guns - wrong.

Air guns in the UK are only allowed to have a maximum power of 12 ft/lbs - anything over this (the lethal versions) come under the same firearms control and licencing as full-blown hunting rifles - neither of these figure in any amount in criminal activity.

We used to get shotgun owners having their guns nicked because they were usually stored in a cupboard or somewhere easy to access. Not really an issue now, as Firearms licencing officers will insist on secure gun cabinets for these weapons.

In fact the 'gun culture' that is blighting our estates isn't made up of neds toting stolen sawn-off shotguns. They are too big to conceal y'see.
The guns (mainly semi-autos or revolvers) are sourced from other criminals who obtain them from sources other than legitimate owners. Or converted 'replicas', or 'zip' guns (ie home made).

Legitimate gun owners are a 'soft target' (pun intended) for any politician wishing to jump onto the 'caring' bandwagon. They can spout ad nauseum about the evil gun culture, harass the innocent by changing the legislation and eventually not make one bit of difference to what is happening on the streets of our towns - because thay are not targeting the right people.

But hey, the politician will get good publicity from it, so who cares about a few law-abiding people, eh?

Not getting personal!:D

.

.

[Riffman]

There is a HUGE problem with people confusing the issue of gun crime commited with ILLEGAL weapons, and legally licensed weapons.

The guns that are used for shooting of kids in cities are ILLEGALLY sourced pistols and sub-machine guns that are brought in from Europe.

When was the last time you heard of a kid being shot with a £1000 Berreta over and under shotgun?

So you see, the problem is with the use of ILLEGAL weapons. Lord Tebbit's point is that kids are not exposed to the use of LEGAL weapons in a safe and controlled environment. This means that the only firearms they will come into contact with is ILLEGAL ones, which they will be able to purchase from criminal without needing to show any sense of responsibilty or safety.

Obtaining a legally held firearm in this country is very difficult, which is ironic as obtaining a ILLEGAL firearm is relativly easy.

The point Lord Tebbit was also making is that children are not taught discipline. In his day if someone was rude to their teacher they got a clip round the ear, and rightly so. Once we can regain discipline in children then we regain the country.

"Outlaw the weapons and only the outlaws will have weapons" - The Americans love to quote that one.

[northener]

There is a HUGE problem with people confusing the issue of gun crime commited with ILLEGAL weapons, and legally licensed weapons.

The guns that are used for shooting of kids in cities are ILLEGALLY sourced pistols and sub-machine guns that are brought in from Europe.

When was the last time you heard of a kid being shot with a £1000 Berreta over and under shotgun?

So you see, the problem is with the use of ILLEGAL weapons. Lord Tebbit's point is that kids are not exposed to the use of LEGAL weapons in a safe and controlled environment. This means that the only firearms they will come into contact with is ILLEGAL ones, which they will be able to purchase from criminal without needing to show any sense of responsibilty or safety.

Obtaining a legally held firearm in this country is very difficult, which is ironic as obtaining a ILLEGAL firearm is relativly easy.

The point Lord Tebbit was also making is that children are not taught discipline. In his day if someone was rude to their teacher they got a clip round the ear, and rightly so. Once we can regain discipline in children then we regain the country.

"Outlaw the weapons and only the outlaws will have weapons" - The Americans love to quote that one.


Bang on.

Pun intended (again)!

.

[Pouleriscaig]

Sorry northerner I disagree.

I can only go by the Home Offices records related to gun crime and 48% is committed by air weapons.

As the Government say themselves, legally held guns that are stolen are a serious problem.

My argument is that you have to do all you can to cut out all supply, as well as any perceptions that it is legitimate to own a gun, let alone use it.

[northener]

Sorry northerner I disagree.
.......

My argument is that you have to do all you can to cut out all supply, as well as any perceptions that it is legitimate to own a gun, let alone use it.

The problem lies with a dysfunctional element of society, not guns. Guns are an inanimate object not capable of killing anyone.

All you and anti-gun politicians are doing is diverting attention away from the real problems. Snuff out the disease, not the symptoms. The disease in this case is a breakdown in societies values. As other people have commented on this thread, there was no 'history' of gun culture up until very recently.

After WW2 Europe was awash with weapons, people were suffering depravation on a scale unimaginable to the youth of today - yet there was no 'gun culture', nobody 'dissin' or not 'givin respeck' - could you explain to me why? Because using your argument that guns equal disorder then Europe should have been a hell-hole in the 50's and 60's.

But it wasn't, was it?

.

[Riffman]

Sorry northerner I disagree.

I can only go by the Home Offices records related to gun crime and 48% is committed by air weapons.Indeed, that is because until recently you could buy an airgun via the internet and have it delivered to your door, not something I ever approved of. When a person goes to a RFD to buy an airgun, the owner has the right to refuse a sale if he suspects that the person may not be responsible enough to own an airgun.

The laws are tough surrounding the misuse of airguns, but rarely enforced to their full strength.


As the Government say themselves, legally held guns that are stolen are a serious problem.Yes, they are a problem. But in the case of firearms held on a Section 1 certificate, ammunition can only be purchased by a holder of a FAC. This rules out the thieves being able to buy ammunition.

No gun owner wants their guns stolen, that is why they are stored in a reinforced metal cabinet that is fitted with locks. The British Standard for gun cabinets sets out requirements for the construction. This means that the average cabinet would be harder to break into than most secure buildings.

Small safes are commonly used to store the bolts (a componant of rifles that when seperate from a rifle makes it useless) and ammunition for firearms, and it is not often that a thief will go to the trouble of trying to open a safe.


My argument is that you have to do all you can to cut out all supply, as well as any perceptions that it is legitimate to own a gun, let alone use it.That is a quite obvously a statement from a person who has no experiance with firearms and is frightened by them. There is nothing to fear from a gun. On its own, it cannot ever hurt, kill, or injure someone. The only way that can happen is if someone pulls the trigger.

-----------------

'Gun Culture' is a 100% product of the media. Before television, the internet and computer games were common, guns were used as tools. The only time you could see a person getting shot was either a murder or a war. The brutality and bloodyness was enough to ensure that you did not think shooting someone was 'cool'.

Now, we see guns used for illegal and brutal use in the media all the time. Films show in graphic detail people getting shot and no matter how many people the 'good guy' shoots, he is still 'good'. Computer games glorify killing and murder using guns, and thus they tell us that guns + killing = cool.

Only once we remove the 'coolness' that the media has created will the 'gun culture' be destroyed.


----------------

The point that Lord Tebbit was rightly making, is that guns are only ever seen in their illegal and dangerous use both in the media and in the cities.

When was the last time you heard of a drug gang sitting in fields and shooting at each other in the countryside? Nope, didn't think so.

Gun have a right and legitimate place in this country. The strict laws and licensing systems ensure that only people who are responsible enough are allowed to own guns.

Illegal guns can be bought be anyone, and can be used by anyone.

------------------

The first rule of gun safety is to never, ever, point a gun at someone. Children who grow up involved in shooting sports learn that from an early age. Anyone caught breaking the rule will face a swift exit from all shooting clubs.

This instills in the Child the fact that if used improperly a gun is dangerous. It teaches them discipline and responsibilty.

I agree whole heartly that we must rid britain of its 'gun culture' in the cities. But not by banning legal firearms; they are not the cause of it.

Feel free to ask any questions, I am well versed in the Firearms Laws of the UK and I will happly discuss firearms.

Thanks,

Sam

[ywindythesecond]

At the start of this thread, Norman Tebbit was being cast aside as someone out of touch.
Please take time to read this extract from Wikipedia;

Norman Beresford Tebbit, Baron Tebbit of Chingford CH (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Companions_of_Honour), PC (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Most_Honourable_Privy_Council) (born 29 March (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_29)1931 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931)) is a British (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)Conservative (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_%28UK%29) politician and former Member of Parliament (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_Parliament) (MP) for Chingford (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chingford), who was born in Southgate (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southgate%2C_London) in Enfield (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Enfield). His wife became permanently wheelchair-bound after the Provisional Irish Republican Army (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army)bombing (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing) of the 1984 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984) Conservative Party conference in Brighton (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton).

[TBH]

At the start of this thread, Norman Tebbit was being cast aside as someone out of touch.
Please take time to read this extract from Wikipedia;

Norman Beresford Tebbit, Baron Tebbit of Chingford CH (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Companions_of_Honour), PC (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Most_Honourable_Privy_Council) (born 29 March (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_29)1931 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931)) is a British (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)Conservative (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_%28UK%29) politician and former Member of Parliament (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_Parliament) (MP) for Chingford (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chingford), who was born in Southgate (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southgate%2C_London) in Enfield (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Enfield). His wife became permanently wheelchair-bound after the Provisional Irish Republican Army (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army)bombing (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing) of the 1984 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984) Conservative Party conference in Brighton (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton).Maybe he'll be demanding that children be shown how to make bombs then, just so they can acquire a sense of responsibility and learn how to live in a mans world. He could get some exchange students from al qaeda.

[Riffman]

Maybe he'll be demanding that children be shown how to make bombs then, just so they can acquire a sense of responsibility and learn how to live in a mans world. He could get some exchange students from al qaeda.

I think you are still missing the vital point in that Lord Tebbit is suggesting that we teach children responsible use of licensed legal firearms.

He is not suggesting that we teach them anything illegal.

There is also a difference between having knowledge about something, and carrying out something.

I, like most people who grew up in my time know the basic ingrediants of gunpowder, and know where to purchase them from. But I have not made any as I do not want to. I am responsible enough to know that would be dangerous and stupid.

Therein lies the difference. Having knowledge about something is not wrong, acting on the knowledge can be. I know how to make my car exceed the speed limit, but I don't make it do that. It is that responsibility that alot of children lack today.

[TBH]

I think you are still missing the vital point in that Lord Tebbit is suggesting that we teach children responsible use of licensed legal firearms.

He is not suggesting that we teach them anything illegal.

There is also a difference between having knowledge about something, and carrying out something.

I, like most people who grew up in my time know the basic ingrediants of gunpowder, and know where to purchase them from. But I have not made any as I do not want to. I am responsible enough to know that would be dangerous and stupid.

Therein lies the difference. Having knowledge about something is not wrong, acting on the knowledge can be. I know how to make my car exceed the speed limit, but I don't make it do that. It is that responsibility that alot of children lack today.Forbye our armed forces, competitive sport, etc, guns have no place in British society. Why other than those reasons would a child need to learn marksmanship? They don't have to hunt for their food when they can go to Pizza hut or Burgerking.

[Riffman]

Ah, but you see, you are reacting to the fact that you personally don't like firearms of any type.

I would invite to come out shooting and see for yourself, but I would be uneasy with someone who has an irrational fear of an inanimate object and who I could not deem responsible enough to be allowed to use a firearm.

:rolleyes:

[TBH]

Ah, but you see, you are reacting to the fact that you personally don't like firearms of any type.

I would invite to come out shooting and see for yourself, but I would be uneasy with someone who has an irrational fear of an inanimate object and who I could not deem responsible enough to be allowed to use a firearm.

:rolleyes:I don't have any feelings about guns, I neither like nor dislike them. I will ask again, why would anybody need to learn to shoot a gun unless they are in the armed forces, competing in official competitions, Game-keeping, etc?

[j4bberw0ck]

It's not so much shooting the gun, TBH, it's the discipline - the constant, unrelenting, doesn't-matter-if-you-just-want-to-mess-about-you-can't, balancing everything around for the risk it poses and the risk you pose to it, discipline (sorry about the grammar). There is no other medium that I know of which has quite the same level of discipline demanded, where the demands are so constant (from shooting club to shooting club, shooter to shooter), and where kids and adults take the situation so seriously, because any fule kno guns can kill if misused / mishandled.

Being able to take all that on board and make it work is incredibly good for self-responsibility, self-esteem and self-confidence. I think what northener and Riffman and I are arguing (and I'm sorry, northener and Riffman, if I've misquoted you) is that really, it's not about shooting guns - it's the discipline environment that goes with them that's "character forming".

Imagine if the same discipline could be trained into young car drivers!

[Riffman]

I don't have any feelings about guns, I neither like nor dislike them. I will ask again, why would anybody need to learn to shoot a gun unless they are in the armed forces, competing in official competitions, Game-keeping, etc?

But that is what I am saying as well! Lord Tebbit was suggest that we teach children Sporting shooting, an industry that brings in £600million a year and supports 40,000 jobs in the UK.

Would you be willing to put 40,000 people out of work just because the public have a misguided view about firearms?

Outside of Sporting shooting, target shooting, and the armed forces there is no where in the UK that you can legally shoot firearms (I am not referring to airguns).

That only leave the huge numbers of illegal firearms that have been brought into this country from Europe over the last 20 years with the opening up of the Borders.