View Full Version : Gaelic Digital Service
Just noticed that:
"The BBC Trust has given its go-ahead for BBC Scotland and Gaelic Media Service (GMS) *to launch their planned Gaelic Digital Service (GDS). The GDS service will cost £20.8m-per-year in total, of which GMS will contribute £10.1m and the BBC £10.7m. The BBC's total funding of £10.7m will consist of £7.2m already allocated to existing Gaelic services, £2.5m for new content and related spend and about £1m for distribution costs."
Not wishing to upset folk. but seems an awful lot of money, I understand that Scotland has a population of 5,062,011 people and that there are 58,652 Gaelic speakers - does that mean that this GDS is for (roughly) 1.158% of the population? and possibly 98.84% of Scottish people don't understand the language?
* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7212747.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7212747.stm)
weeboyagee
28-Jan-08, 17:12
Nah - you're not upsetting anybody, this is excellent news for Gaelic speakers - it's not much more being paid for the dedicated channel than is already being paid at the moment.
We've been needing a dedicated channel for ages to help halt the decline of Gaelic amongst the population. I hear the decline has halted. It compliments the new dedicated Gaelic schools.
As for those who do not have Gaelic, well there's a sight more on the tele for the weird and the odd but being in English doesn't make me understand it any more than if it were to be in a language I didn't understand.
Meeting for branch of An Comunn Gaidhealach in Watten Church Hall at 7.30 pm. All welcome - we will probably have this on the agenda for discussion!
WBG :cool:
Anyone care to tell me what Gaelic for DIGITAL is?
Metalattakk
28-Jan-08, 17:41
Gaelic for 'digital' is 'digital', but spoken in a funny accent.
Yes, the language is dead.
Yes, it does appear to be full of common English temrs like, nuclear power, cruise missile etc.........however I do like the translation of Danger Mouse;)
Metalattakk
28-Jan-08, 18:19
Padraig Post's cat even meows with a Gaelic accent. ;)
Pouleriscaig
28-Jan-08, 21:01
Digital is actually 'meurach'
Metalattakk
28-Jan-08, 22:09
"Meurach" means 'finger', or "a branch or fork of a road or river" (by The Power Of Google!) yet I'll bet it's almost never used when talking about digital television, for instance.
Again, 'television' isn't translated into Gaelic well at all, and along with many modern words like 'helicopter' and 'computer', the Gaelic version is almost identical save for the 'funny accents' I noted earlier. The language is dead except for a few stubborn aficionados.
In my view, the BBC could be spending my TV licence money in much better ways.
They could try out-bidding SKY for the rights to show our national football matches for a start.
Pouleriscaig
29-Jan-08, 20:48
Meurach-is indeed formed from digits, or meur.
There's also figearail and didsiotach that may also be used.
In terms of words sounding like/using what appear to be English transaltions, it happens in all languages and is certainly not unique to Gaelic and does nothing to suugest the language is dead.
Many Americanisms have creeped into the English Language.
It doesn't make English a dead language.
In France you can ask for a coca cola, and ask for it in English, or whatever language, but it doesn't mean by doing so that the language used is null and void because you have used its American label.
You could ask for a coc in Gaelic just as easily, but like as in other languages, sometimes the full title is used.
Metalattakk
30-Jan-08, 02:21
Many Americanisms have creeped into the English Language.
It doesn't make English a dead language.
In France you can ask for a coca cola, and ask for it in English, or whatever language, but it doesn't mean by doing so that the language used is null and void because you have used its American label.
You could ask for a coc in Gaelic just as easily, but like as in other languages, sometimes the full title is used.
Using internationally renowned brand-names as an example doesn't add to your argument, I'm afraid.
Tell me, are there any pure Gaelic speakers left? You know, people who only speak Gaelic and don't use or know any English at all? I'd hazard a guess at 'no'.
Gaelic's not alone in it's demise. I can easily see Swedish and Dutch/Flemish (amongst others) becoming extinct relatively soon too, simply due to the ever-expanding domination of the English language around the world.
The standardisation of language has begun, and it's effects will snowball. Gaelic is just one of the small, insignificant languages to have succumbed already.
Tell me, are there any pure Gaelic speakers left? You know, people who only speak Gaelic and don't use or know any English at all? I'd hazard a guess at 'no'.
And how would there be, pray tell, when a compulsory national education system forbade the use of any language other than English?
So your guess was hardly hazarded, was it...the Guinness Book of Records would certainly have mentioned a Gaelic speaker who was still alive and had left school before 1872, wouldn't they?
Metalattakk
30-Jan-08, 03:49
By hook or by crook, the language is still essentially dead.
Personally as a none gaelic speaker its a waste of money.
BBC Scotland hardly makes any "Scottish" programmes any more except for gaelic. Thankfully I have SKY and can change BBC2 when the programmes are on as its always the same drivvle.
Why dont the BBC spend more on the MAJORITY as, after all we ALL pay the TV licence but dont get a fair service?
At least i suppose we have North Tonight which is a more local news service than Reporting Scotland.
I am all for gaelic programmes to a degree but if someone doesnt want to spaek in the same tongue as the majority then why should we subsidise it?
For me it is a matter of culture. I am not a native Gaelic speaker having been brought up in Ayrshire but I, like many other people, have an interest in the language and a desire to learn. Gaelic is part of the heritage of Scotland. I'd also point out as well that Gaelic television on the BBC at the moment is also subtitled, so the english only speaking person still benefits from the programming which is often interesting. There are some better quality factual programmes in Gaelic on Scottish topics that there are in English.
Radio nan Gaidheal, the BBC Scottish Gaelic station, broadcasts some excellent traditional and modern music as well as gaelic commentary and news.
exiledtoedinburgh
30-Jan-08, 13:35
I'm with Andrew C here. I don't speak a word of Gaelic, but I do feel it is important to preserve a crucial part of Scottish culture.
I dont mind preserving it, but would baulk at paying the sums earlier indicated for broadcasting to a minority of the population. It may be part of Scottish culture, but i think it debatable being a "crucial" part.
Metalattakk
30-Jan-08, 14:48
Preserve it all you want, just don't expect me to fund it, directly or indirectly.
Let those who want it so much pay for it.
Oh I agree Metalattakk, I dont one penny of mine spent on it. In fact I wouldn't mind some kind of direct action to take down Gaelic signposts in places with no gaelic history or tradition;)
Metalattakk
30-Jan-08, 15:04
Maybe we should be putting up road signs in Polish, considering there are twice as many native Polish speakers than there are Gaelic speakers living in Scotland today.
Would the Polish speakers demand, and campaign for, a vast percentage of the BBC Scotland funds to set up their own TV channels? And if they did, how far do you think they would get?
Gaelic, whilst certainly having a part in the history of Scotland, is still essentially a dead language, and as such appeals to only a tiny minority of inhabitants (and license-fee-payers) of this country.
Blazing Sporrans
30-Jan-08, 15:19
As someone who's maternal grandparents spoke fluent Gaelic and someone who's mother barely spoke English before school and was then forced to, I find it sad that pople actually think that the language and culture should be allowed to die. I speak a bit of Gaelic, however blame my lack of fluency on my mother for marrying a Black Isler and denying us the opportunity to constantly speak it in the home (being a Black Isle boy, my father had a hard enough time with English :D).
It's interesting that such an old language should be criticised for adopting Anglified terminology as many modern words will obviously have no counterpart in the Gaelic language (although I believe that the Celtic Studies department in Glasgow University do an excellent job in researching and coming up with more correct terminology for many 'new' words. English itself must be one of the most heavily influenced languages in the world, with a huge percentage of the language having it's roots in other foreign and sometimes archaic languages - yet I don't see anyone criticising English for that. The Welsh language has had better financial assistance and more sustained promulgation amongst the native population, allowing it to continue and even thrive, so why should Gaelic be denied?
There aren't many places across Scotland where there is little history or tradition involving the Gaelic language or culture and when you consider the impact that the tourism pound has in the revenue of the Western Isles, it's hard to argue that it's not crucial to them.
Metalattakk
30-Jan-08, 15:28
Fair enough, then let them pay for it. For the rest of us it's of no benefit whatsoever.
weeboyagee
30-Jan-08, 15:30
Scotsboy - where exactly would that be - I think we should be erecting them at Allt na Breac here in Caithness with the English translation Aultnabreac underneath it to show what we did with the place years ago! Ach, am pulling your leg!
There are a lot of Gaelic speakers who do not agree with the money being spent on the Gaelic signage - then again there are a lot of people who don't agree on money being spent on a lot of things in the English language. Matter of personal choice.
Metalattakk, given the money spent on Gaelic Digital TV how about we arrange that your personal contribution to the tax sporran (sorry "Purse"!) of the country doesn't go in that direction.
Erm,.. I believe that those of us who do want it will be paying for it - it's not available on Free View and considering the amount extra is not that much more than that which was already being spent on Gaelic TV there's not that much more to moan about.
By the way history shows that Caithness had monoglot Gaelic speakers not too long ago - and the county couldn't be what it is today without the thousands of Gaels that helped shape it's history during the height of the herring boom - we can't cast everything behind us because it is forgone.
Swedish/Flemish etc - why don't we just satisfy everyone and be done with all the minority languages in the world and learn English - English speakers probably being the laziest language learners I think on the planet. Why should we expect them to see the reason in the argument for Gaelic TV - they don't understand it, can't appreciate it, but put subtitles on it and a few will watch!
I still think that we need the Gaelic TV station for the new youth who are growing up with the language. It's amazing hearing them on the radio these days - yes, with their spattering of English language words because such terms aren't indigenous to the Gaelic language. But the one I love - "Oh, bha, bha gu dearbh, bha sin really math!!!" Gaelic is not dead or arguably not even dying now. 20 years ago no Gaelic medium High Schools - look what we have today.... yeah - that's a dead language right enough - NOT. It's called righting the wrong of history - when kids had it hammered out of them in school by Act of Parliament - the only comment I have is that it took us long enough to get round to it. The kids are even texting in Gaelic and posting on bebo in Gaelic and proud of it - those of you who think you know it about how "dead" the language is haven't a clue, you haven't a clue!... but by heck - you're gonna find out sometime soon ;)
WBG :cool:
Is Aultnabreac in Caithness now! I thought it was in Sutherland, or have "they" done a border change? You would enjoy a book I recently read - unfortunately I dontthink I can type the title as I may get a ban, but the subtitle is How maps name, claim and inflame
Metalattakk
30-Jan-08, 15:58
Metalattakk, given the money spent on Gaelic Digital TV how about we arrange that your personal contribution to the tax sporran (sorry "Purse"!) of the country doesn't go in that direction.
Yep, that'd make me happy. I'll leave it for you to arrange, whilst endeavouring to not hold my breath.
Erm,.. I believe that those of us who do want it will be paying for it - it's not available on Free View and considering the amount extra is not that much more than that which was already being spent on Gaelic TV there's not that much more to moan about.
Except for the £10M given by the BBC, money which could be spent on more worthwhile projects for the benefit of a far larger percentage of licence-payers.
By the way history shows that Caithness had monoglot Gaelic speakers not too long ago - and the county couldn't be what it is today without the thousands of Gaels that helped shape it's history during the height of the herring boom - we can't cast everything behind us because it is forgone.
I'd suggest that in Caithness there is a far larger debt to be paid to the Norse. As well as that, there are vast swathes of Caithness land where Gaelic has never been the first language.
Swedish/Flemish etc - why don't we just satisfy everyone and be done with all the minority languages in the world and learn English... *snip*
It's happening all around us already. We are moving towards a mono-linguistic world, and there's precious little anyone can do about it. Indeed in the scientific world there already is only one language, as is similar in the world of aviation.
Gaelic is not dead or arguably not even dying now.
As you say, that is arguable.
Have to say I agree with Andrew C - there are some interesting programmes in the Gaelic sector on BBC2 - even though I have to use the subtitles. Must say now I would have preferred to learn Gaelic in school rather than French (?) - pourquoi! Should people who don't like the gaelic programming not be glad that there will be a dedicated channel and they can avoid it completely. I'm sure if we broke it down there would be a lot more spent on drivel than gaelic language programmes.
Wonder if the Cornish Language should get similar financial assistance, and/or their own TV - as with a population of 501,267 down there and with approx 10,000 with some knowledge of Cornish (is that 1 in 50?).. just a thought..
weeboyagee
30-Jan-08, 17:27
Hmmmm,...... not many fluent speakers of Cornish left? 10,000 with a knowledge.... but if they can manage to get the foothold then let them go for it I say !!!
WBG :cool:
I find that on the whole gaelic TV is depressing.
If its not some woman accompanied by a fiddle singing a song about how her family emigrated abroad its actually a programme about gaels who moved abroad and DONT LIVE IN SCOTLAND!!!!.
At least now I know where all the money goes, its to find that sad wifies family :)
Blazing Sporrans
30-Jan-08, 20:45
Maybe we should be putting up road signs in Polish, considering there are twice as many native Polish speakers than there are Gaelic speakers living in Scotland today.
I don't think we've yet reached the stage of having an indigenous, historical population speaking Polish so a poor analogy....
I don't think that many Scots would have to go too far into their own family's past to find at least one Gaelic speaker.
Gaelic, whilst certainly having a part in the history of Scotland, is still essentially a dead language....
Have you researched that Metal? Because I'm sure that I recall hearing very recently that the numbers of Gaelic speakers is on the rise, particularly thanks to the Gaelic medium playgroups and schools. So somebody, somewhere has more than a passing interest in our 'dying' language. Incidentally, the Gaelic playgroup in Thurso is doing very well indeed...
Gaelic, whilst certainly having a part in the history of Scotland, is still essentially a dead language, and as such appeals to only a tiny minority of inhabitants (and license-fee-payers) of this country.
One of the things you're missing is that official figures don't actually count children under three who can speak gaelic or who are brought up in gaelic speaking homes. There are many nations where children are raised bilingual...this certainly doesn't constitute death of a language.
I think there is also nearly as many gaelic speakers outside the country than there are in it.
Gaelic, whilst certainly having a part in the history of Scotland, is still essentially a dead language....
Have you researched that Metal? Because I'm sure that I recall hearing very recently that the numbers of Gaelic speakers is on the rise, particularly thanks to the Gaelic medium playgroups and schools. So somebody, somewhere has more than a passing interest in our 'dying' language. Incidentally, the Gaelic playgroup in Thurso is doing very well indeed...
Essentially the Scottish Gaelic language is a dead language. Metalattak is quite correct.
There is a steering group that exists (I believe on Skye) that approves/doesn't approve additions to the Gaelic language. This is the tell tale sign of a dead language. English needs no approval. Its additions either gets adopted or or its additions are forgotten due to popular rather than committee approval.
Metalattakk
31-Jan-08, 03:17
Good point, Rheghead. The Swedish and Flemish languages don't need committees to decide inclusions of new words to their languages.
Nor does the Hindi or Urdu languages, which incidentally have more native speakers in Scotland than Gaelic does, as well as the Polish.
j4bberw0ck
31-Jan-08, 10:54
There is a steering group that exists that approves/doesn't approve additions to the Gaelic language. This is the tell tale sign of a dead language
Pfffffftt. For heaven's sake don't tell the French (http://french.about.com/cs/francophonie/a/academie.htm) their language is dead.
Blazing Sporrans
31-Jan-08, 12:25
Essentially the Scottish Gaelic language is a dead language. Metalattak is quite correct.
Sorry Rheg, just because you say so, doesn't mean your assertions are correct. The opening of new Gaelic medium schools doesn't support your claims at all....
There is a steering group that exists (I believe on Skye) that approves/doesn't approve additions to the Gaelic language. This is the tell tale sign of a dead language. English needs no approval. Its additions either gets adopted or or its additions are forgotten due to popular rather than committee approval.
A common misconception about the work done by Sabhal Mor Ostaig. They will carry out research to produce more literal translations for 'nuclear', 'television', 'laser' etc in order to avoid the use of pidgeon Gaelic (for want of a better description). It satisfies the academics amongst them and who's to say they are wrong? We allow Americanisms to seep into the English language and use them - we now verb nouns - anyone else noticed? We used to gain access to information, however thanks to our American cousins we access information instead. In English, words are often stolen or borrowed from other languages or societies and adopted into our own - as I said in an earlier post, the English language must be one of the most heavily influenced by a global mix. Read through a good dictionary and find the origins of many words used in modern English and a significant percentage will find their roots in foreign languages. Maybe English is dying and we're all learning to speak 'television' instead....
Blazing Sporrans
31-Jan-08, 12:28
And funnily enough, do we not have an annual newspaper filler when the latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary is published, having a laugh at the new words included. What else is that, if not approval by committee?
Fair enough, then let them pay for it. For the rest of us it's of no benefit whatsoever.
Then if the criteria for spending money on TV programming/channels is that everybody wants to watch it, there would be no need for a television service at all..........or do you know of any programmes/channels which get 100% viewing figures? :roll:
When the Government wastes money like this..............
- £280,000 on a conference addressed by Blair and Brown on value for money in the public services.
- £400 million on 'cost control' for the Olympic Games.
- £3 million by tax inspectors at HM Revenue and Customs on flights, including £2.1 million on flights to Scotland.
- Over £16 million on the creation and upkeep of VIP lounges in Heathrow and Gatwick despite the fact they are not government-owned.
- £100,000 on assessing whether £400,000 reportedly spent on modern art for seven hospitals was money well spent.
http://www.harriman-house.com/pages/book.htm?BookCode=172643
money for Gaelic has at least some useful purpose.
If there was a demand for Gaelic services then the market would provide for it - there isn't and it has to live of funding given to it. The majority (HUGE VAST) have no interest in gaelic programs. The funding received by these is far out of proportion to the population who speak gaelic.
A common misconception about the work done by Sabhal Mor Ostaig. They will carry out research to produce more literal translations for 'nuclear', 'television', 'laser' etc in order to avoid the use of pidgeon Gaelic (for want of a better description).
You have just confirmed my point. A language that is dynamic and truely alive doesn't actually need such work to be done, it evolves naturally. It isn't a misconception on my part, it is fact not fiction.
English is actively inclusive of foreign words and we don't largely care about it, yet whenever the same accusation is made of Gaelic, Gaelic speakers get so upset about it. Why is that? They want Gaelic to be exclusive and distinct that is why.
And funnily enough, do we not have an annual newspaper filler when the latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary is published, having a laugh at the new words included. What else is that, if not approval by committee?
The essential difference being that the Oxford English Dictionary approves words from the English language for inclusion into their book .
The Sabhal Mor Ostaig approves words from their book for inclusion into the Gaelic language.
Nor does the Hindi or Urdu languages, which incidentally have more native speakers in Scotland than Gaelic does, as well as the Polish.
Where are your figures for the above assertion?
It seems whenever the BBC spends money on something that an individual either doesn't like, or doesn't benefit from, they cry about the BBC wasting money.
Anyway,isn't it part of the remit of the BBC partially to cater for less popular viewing sectors where commercial television would be unviable?
I'd as soon spend a few million on maintaining and increasing the understanding of the Gaelic language than a few million on one "celebrity's" wages.
I saw someone make a reference to Cornish (can't find it now to quote) but having just come up from Somerset to Wick I happened to pick up in the local news that Cornish is recognised as a dead language that has been revived. The last native Cornish speaker died a couple of years ago and there is no one left who speaks the language from birth as their primary language. I'm sure you'll agree that Gaelic is different to that.
Gaelic is a lovely language, there are loads of lovely phrases to bring out...some o them are great alternatives to swearing lol I teach Gaelic to my children too...they love it.
The Sabhal Mor Ostaig approves words from their book for inclusion into the Gaelic language.
Like the French do? :roll:
the Académie's task tends to be focused on lessening the influx of English terms into French by choosing or inventing French equivalents.
from J4bberw0ck's link.
It was me, Andrew Post 26: Wonder if the Cornish Language should get similar financial assistance, and/or their own TV - as with a population of 501,267 down there and with approx 10,000 with some knowledge of Cornish (is that 1 in 50?).. just a thought..
Like the French do? :roll:
the Académie's task tends to be focused on lessening the influx of English terms into French by choosing or inventing French equivalents.
from J4bberw0ck's link.
French wasn't in danger of becoming a dead language until recently when extreme right-wing French nationalist politics started to interfere with the French language. Once languages become totally exclusive and not take in words from other languages then they become dead. Refer to Canadian French which is an archaic form of mainstream French and is ridiculed by the French. Ironically, French will end up as archaic.
j4bberw0ck
31-Jan-08, 23:34
Where are your figures for the above assertion?
BBC Radio 4, the other morning, while interviewing the mannie who's got the job (at the taxpayer's expense, naturally) of getting the Gaelic broadcasting started. He had to admit figures taken from the last Census show Gaelic trailing well behind Polish, Hindi and Urdu.
If people want Gaelic, great. Let 'em pay. It's like the Arts Council gets £600 million a year to subsidise the arts - why? The taxpayer subsidises the A and B socioeconomic groups who want to go watch opera, or Shakespeare. Why? Let 'em pay.
j4bberw0ck
31-Jan-08, 23:41
French wasn't in danger of becoming a dead language until recently when extreme right-wing French nationalist politics started to interfere with the French language.
And where, pray, did you manage to Google that from?
And where is your original point? You remember; the one that said the mere existence of a body which exerts control over a language, defines the language as "dead".
And where is your original point? You remember; the one that said the mere existence of a body which exerts control over a language, defines the language as "dead".
Sorry, explain a bit more?
I thought it was well known that pressure to preserve the French language was coming from right wing groups.
Dead language? I never said a language was dead if it had a body exerting contol over it. But it is dead if it doesn't change its vocabulary, grammar, etc over time. It has nothing to do with few numbers of fluent speakers or anything.
And where, pray, did you manage to Google that from?.
The modern thrust to preserve the French language resulted in a Toubon's Law, named after Jacques Toubon, right wing politician.
j4bberw0ck
01-Feb-08, 00:17
There is a steering group that exists that approves/doesn't approve additions to the Gaelic language. This is the tell tale sign of a dead language.
Dead language? I never said a language was dead if it had a body exerting contol over it.
Hmm.:roll:
I do beg your pardon, but you said unequivocally that the existence of a controlling group is the telltale sign of a dead language. I think it's a minor point, personally, but if a main plank of your argument falls, so does the rest.
j4bberw0ck
01-Feb-08, 00:26
Toubon's Law. New one on me, but well Googled. Or so I thought, until I looked at it and found that it's protectionism of French culture and language, certainly; it does things like levy a tax on conferences in France which are conducted in English, and limits the amount of non-French music which can be played on French media.
So, it's nationalism gone mad, not a body for controlling the content of the language. That would be the Acadamie.
Most mad Nationalists, by the way, are Socialists; Hitler being a case in point.
Ooops. That would be Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law), then...........
Boozeburglar
01-Feb-08, 00:28
Ker-pow!
Essentially the Scottish Gaelic language is a dead language. Metalattak is quite correct.
There is a steering group that exists (I believe on Skye) that approves/doesn't approve additions to the Gaelic language. This is the tell tale sign of a dead language. English needs no approval. Its additions either gets adopted or or its additions are forgotten due to popular rather than committee approval.
I remember your post too, and I was going to reply at some point...
Short term memory issues Reg, check yer fillings!
BBC Radio 4, the other morning, while interviewing the mannie who's got the job (at the taxpayer's expense, naturally) of getting the Gaelic broadcasting started. He had to admit figures taken from the last Census show Gaelic trailing well behind Polish, Hindi and Urdu.
If people want Gaelic, great. Let 'em pay. It's like the Arts Council gets £600 million a year to subsidise the arts - why? The taxpayer subsidises the A and B socioeconomic groups who want to go watch opera, or Shakespeare. Why? Let 'em pay.
According to the Government families have the right to pass on their cultural and linguistic heritage to their children.........why should this apply only to immigrants and the Welsh?
From the 2001 census..........there are 42600 Muslims(Urdu), 5600 Hindus and as for Poles guestimate any number from 40000 to 100000........though officially 31000.....while Gaelic speakers are 58000+.
What census was the mannie talking about?
Metalattakk
01-Feb-08, 01:05
According to the Government families have the right to pass on their cultural and linguistic heritage to their children.........why should this apply only to immigrants and the Welsh?
It doesn't, and nobody is suggesting it does.
It doesn't, and nobody is suggesting it does.
Aren't you?
The Welsh language channel gets Government subsidies and there is a BBC Asian Network so far.....and word of an Arabic channel.So why not Gaelic?
Aren't you?
The Welsh language channel gets Government subsidies and there is a BBC Asian Network so far.....and word of an Arabic channel.So why not Gaelic?
Because the levle of funding is far out of proportion with the number of Gaelic speakers.
Ker-pow!
I remember your post too, and I was going to reply at some point...
Short term memory issues Reg, check yer fillings!
Sorry but I think you are seeing more in my post than I intended, I haven't made any contradiction.
Hmm.:roll:
I do beg your pardon, but you said unequivocally that the existence of a controlling group is the telltale sign of a dead language. I think it's a minor point, personally, but if a main plank of your argument falls, so does the rest.
Sorry but you have lost me, are you just picking points off me or something? I am not into those silly games.
A group exerting control over a language doesn't define a dead language, though one would make a language dead.
Toubon's Law. New one on me, but well Googled. Or so I thought, until I looked at it and found that it's protectionism of French culture and language, certainly; it does things like levy a tax on conferences in France which are conducted in English, and limits the amount of non-French music which can be played on French media.
So, it's nationalism gone mad, not a body for controlling the content of the language. That would be the Acadamie.
Most mad Nationalists, by the way, are Socialists; Hitler being a case in point.
Ooops. That would be Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law), then...........
Again, you have tried to invalidate my post when it wasn't needed. You asked me to link 'preservation of the French language' (which Toubon's law purports to do) and modern right-wing politics in France and I did what you said. I never claimed that Toubon's law was a group exerting control over the French language. Usually Nationalists are classified as right-wing.
j4bberw0ck
01-Feb-08, 10:13
Sorry but you have lost me, are you just picking points off me or something? I am not into those silly games.
A group exerting control over a language doesn't define a dead language, though one would make a language dead.
You're at it again, Rheghead. Either you don't understand your own syntax, or you're on a wind-up again. Either way, chuck, you're on your own.
I'm going to leave you to your self-confessed wind-up antics. Enough.
Big hughie
01-Feb-08, 13:11
What ever you say about this non story (the digital bit ....all analogue channels are to be turned off soon) the BBC isnt too selective about how its spends its money anyway
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/showbiz/s/215/215339_wossy_wins_18m_bbc_contract.html
On top off that the BBC spends a wee bit of cash on World service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_World_Service
and I wonder what the TRUE audiences figures are nowadays in the days of the internet
Even as a non Gaelic speaker I really enjoy Eorpa even if I have to read the subtitles Its a pity there are not more programmes like it
Its just a pity that the BBC spend so much time and effort inflicting us with such cultural gunge such as East Enders (spoken in a very impure English I may add ) and insist on transmitting England football matches (bought at huge cost) to this part of the world
Beeeeggggg Hugheeeeeeeeeeeee
What ever you say about this non story (the digital bit ....all analogue channels are to be turned off soon) the BBC isnt too selective about how its spends its money anyway
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/showbiz/s/215/215339_wossy_wins_18m_bbc_contract.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/showbiz/s/215/215339_wossy_wins_18m_bbc_contract.html)
On top off that the BBC spends a wee bit of cash on World service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_World_Service (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_World_Service)
and I wonder what the TRUE audiences figures are nowadays in the days of the internet
Even as a non Gaelic speaker I really enjoy Eorpa even if I have to read the subtitles Its a pity there are not more programmes like it
Its just a pity that the BBC spend so much time and effort inflicting us with such cultural gunge such as East Enders (spoken in a very impure English I may add ) and insist on transmitting England football matches (bought at huge cost) to this part of the world
Beeeeggggg Hugheeeeeeeeeeeee
Well said!
weeboyagee
01-Feb-08, 13:37
Glad you enjoy Eorpa Beeg Hugheeee, I have been asked to come up with a list of Gaelic speakers in the county to provide to the Producer - they're thinking of promoting the county on the programme - that is a programme entirely about the county. I had no problem in listing them - there are plenty when you look. Yip - Caithness,.... WE'LL even be worth the watching on Gaelic TV - and there'll be native Kaitness Fowk in 'ere wi' wur own dialekt an al' !!!
Metallattak and Scotsboy will be tuning in - they micht see themselves on it - I put their names forward! :D
WBG :cool:
Highland Laddie
01-Feb-08, 13:57
"Meurach" means 'finger', or "a branch or fork of a road or river" (by The Power Of Google!) yet I'll bet it's almost never used when talking about digital television, for instance.
Again, 'television' isn't translated into Gaelic well at all, and along with many modern words like 'helicopter' and 'computer', the Gaelic version is almost identical save for the 'funny accents' I noted earlier. The language is dead except for a few stubborn aficionados.
In my view, the BBC could be spending my TV licence money in much better ways.
They could try out-bidding SKY for the rights to show our national football matches for a start.
Sorry Metalattakk,
I personally would rather watch anything on television, than have one penny of my licence fee spent on football.
Rugby, any kind of motor sport, athletic meets yes, football NO.
But overpaid egotistical wannabe male models tip toeing around scared to take a slight knock playing football is my personal nightmare.
weeboyagee
01-Feb-08, 14:32
Erm,.... quick,... duck,......incoming................ :D
WBG :cool:
Metalattakk
01-Feb-08, 14:33
But that's the point, HL.
Minorities shouldn't be given hugely disproportionate slices of funding to the detriment of relatively mainstream interests.
You're at it again, Rheghead. Either you don't understand your own syntax, or you're on a wind-up again. Either way, chuck, you're on your own.
I'm going to leave you to your self-confessed wind-up antics. Enough.
So do you finally accept my assertion that right wing politics is linked to the preservation of the French language? Similiarly, Scottish nationalism is linked to preserving the Gaelic language.
Highland Laddie
01-Feb-08, 14:51
Erm,.... quick,... duck,......incoming................ :D
WBG :cool:
Just the truth about how I and many others I know feel about football,
I feel it takes up a disproportional amount of television time.
Big hughie
01-Feb-08, 14:52
Minorities shouldn't be given hugely disproportionate slices of funding to the detriment of relatively mainstream interests.
Ok then lets do away with BBC Scotland ...then if we are going on language lets all just get American TV .....or just learn to speak Chinese
most countries are pround of their heritage and in a lot of cases try to foster the cultures within ie Sweden and its Sami (lapp) broadcasts Ireland with its Gaelic Finland with its Swedish broadcasts etc etc but here we have to argue and put it down in some ways
Reasons ??? Unionists not wanting see any weakening in the UK ?? Embarrasment at not speaking the language ?? Or just a preference to hear and see programmes about city life in England ?? I dont know but it would sadden me to see an important piece of Scotlands culture weakened anymore
Beeeg Hugheeeeeeee
ps Is it not better to hear the sound of a native voice than the nasal sound of Scouse .the contorted vowels of Cockney or the whine of Roland Rat
Nothing personal against any of these fine
folks
j4bberw0ck
01-Feb-08, 15:04
From the 2001 census..........there are 42600 Muslims(Urdu), 5600 Hindus and as for Poles guestimate any number from 40000 to 100000........though officially 31000.....while Gaelic speakers are 58000+.
What census was the mannie talking about?
Which Census? No idea, chuck. None at all; though I presume it's 2001. I'm merely reporting one part of the BBC extracting an admission from another part of the BBC that scarcely anyone speaks Gaelic, and that at least three immigrant groups are more numerous. One might have expected the professional BBC-trained journalist / interviewer and the man with the job of spending £20 mil of our money on almost no audience at all to have reasonable data, no?
Your figures looked interesting and my first reaction was that you can see more than 42,600 errrr, Asian people in a five minute wander down almost any largish street in Glasgow; when I went to have a look at the Census website at www.scrol.gov.uk (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.scrol.gov.uk) the "analyser" has been hobbled by the Political Correctness Police and won't give any details of ethnicity or religion without application (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/contacts/contact-form.html). What your figures actually represent is therefore open to some question.
Before going off on one at me, note I'm not saying you're wrong. Just your figures are open to question, since they don't look right empirically and don't agree in any way with might might be expected to be reasonable data (from the unlovely BBC). Perhaps the figures don't include people of those ethnicities born here? Don't know; just guessing. It would be interesting to explore the figures better. Where did yours come from?
BTW, I for one don't support taxpayer funding of Welsh TV, Muslim TV, Hindu TV, Scottish TV or English TV (the BBC for instance). If people want it, let them pay. I don't support the translation of Government websites into dialects (like Scottish). Or minor languages like Gaelic, Urdu and the rest. Let 'em learn English, as the official language of the country.
Either that or I want a special webpage for Scouse taxpayers**. Yeh, wack. Dead ace.
**Contrary to belief there are some. :lol:
Using internationally renowned brand-names as an example doesn't add to your argument, I'm afraid.
Tell me, are there any pure Gaelic speakers left? You know, people who only speak Gaelic and don't use or know any English at all? I'd hazard a guess at 'no'.
Gaelic's not alone in it's demise. I can easily see Swedish and Dutch/Flemish (amongst others) becoming extinct relatively soon too, simply due to the ever-expanding domination of the English language around the world.
The standardisation of language has begun, and it's effects will snowball. Gaelic is just one of the small, insignificant languages to have succumbed already.
With regard to Dutch this is certainly not the case as I have Dutch relatives who would disagree with you. The children are taught purely taught in Dutch until they are about 6, then they are taught English as a second language. With regards to Galiec, I think the money spent on it is horrendous and it should be allowed to die quietly rather than waste taxpayers money. I have no problem with people speaking it, if they choose to, but I don't wish to hear it.
Big hughie
01-Feb-08, 15:46
48500 Faroese seem to manage to keep their language going !!! Just tune to 531 on the medium wave for proof
Just thinking Faroese isnt that different from this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norn_language
Beeg Hugheeeeeeeeeee
Metalattakk
01-Feb-08, 16:18
Minorities shouldn't be given hugely disproportionate slices of funding to the detriment of relatively mainstream interests.
Ok then lets do away with BBC Scotland ...then if we are going on language lets all just get American TV .....or just learn to speak Chinese
Eh, you do understand the phrase "hugely disproportionate" don't you? Maybe you missed that part of my post.
As far as I am aware, BBC Scotland doesn't receive a "hugely disproportionate" slice of BBC funds.
Big Hughie: "most countries are pround of their heritage and in a lot of cases try to foster the cultures within, ie Sweden and its Sami (lapp) broadcasts"
The Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation (NRK) Sámi Radio broadcasts, approximately 30-40 hours of television programmes in Sami annually*
I think the main complaint here is the amount of money it's costing?
*http://www.fuen.org/pdfs/20020614Saami_Sara.pdf
Boozeburglar
01-Feb-08, 16:52
10.7 million is really nothing much these days, what is the beef?
Gaelic speaking households pay a TV license; it is nothing but a reciprocation of investment the BBC has already received from them.
Gaelic is more than a language; it is the bedrock of a way of life.
Big hughie
01-Feb-08, 16:53
Yes and my point is .....it is that much compared to what the BBC gave to Johnathan Ross and what is spent on the world service ??
A lot of people on the North and West coasts were paying a full TV license when they could only get BBC1 and the rest of the UK had 3 or 4 more channels even nowadays I know of one or two who can only receive SKY put still have to pay money through their license to the BBC Fair???
Beeg Hugheeeeeeeeeeeee
Which Census? No idea, chuck. None at all; though I presume it's 2001. I'm merely reporting one part of the BBC extracting an admission from another part of the BBC that scarcely anyone speaks Gaelic, and that at least three immigrant groups are more numerous. One might have expected the professional BBC-trained journalist / interviewer and the man with the job of spending £20 mil of our money on almost no audience at all to have reasonable data, no?
Your figures looked interesting and my first reaction was that you can see more than 42,600 errrr, Asian people in a five minute wander down almost any largish street in Glasgow; when I went to have a look at the Census website at www.scrol.gov.uk (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.scrol.gov.uk) the "analyser" has been hobbled by the Political Correctness Police and won't give any details of ethnicity or religion without application (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/contacts/contact-form.html). What your figures actually represent is therefore open to some question.
Before going off on one at me, note I'm not saying you're wrong. Just your figures are open to question, since they don't look right empirically and don't agree in any way with might might be expected to be reasonable data (from the unlovely BBC). Perhaps the figures don't include people of those ethnicities born here? Don't know; just guessing. It would be interesting to explore the figures better. Where did yours come from?
BTW, I for one don't support taxpayer funding of Welsh TV, Muslim TV, Hindu TV, Scottish TV or English TV (the BBC for instance). If people want it, let them pay. I don't support the translation of Government websites into dialects (like Scottish). Or minor languages like Gaelic, Urdu and the rest. Let 'em learn English, as the official language of the country.
Either that or I want a special webpage for Scouse taxpayers**. Yeh, wack. Dead ace.
**Contrary to belief there are some. :lol:
I got my figures from http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/02/20757/53570 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/02/20757/53570)
Gaelic speakers already speak English...and there is actually NO official language in the UK....as a democracy without a written constitution, we just allow the 70% who have no other language to think there is. [lol]
I shudder to think of the outcry from some of those who think Gaelic language/culture should pack its bags and slink away if Gaelic gains the same level of official status that Wales enjoys......now that would be fun!
And, btw, I don't understand, speak,read or write Gaelic...but there are 93282 people in Scotland who can do at least one of them....and for those of us who think that Gaelic should be encouraged, it is heartening to note that 32756 of those are under 25.....according to the analyser you mentioned....bodes well for the future!
10.7 million is really nothing much these days, what is the beef?
Gaelic speaking households pay a TV license; it is nothing but a reciprocation of investment the BBC has already received from them.
Gaelic is more than a language; it is the bedrock of a way of life.
I agree totally, it seems money well-spent to me.
It's been mentioned here about the lack of Gaelic words for technical things such as TV.. Interesting to note that this is not the case for Cornish, "Pellgowser" is the Common Cornish word for "telephone" (it literally translates as "far-speaker"); "pellwollok" is "television" and "gwydheo" is "video". There are even words for "internet" - "kesroesweyth" and "e-mail" - "e-bost" (literally, "e-post"). - now 'aint that nice?
*http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2206191.stm AND this link tells you how it sounds.. Thought I'd put this in as after all Cornwall is one of the Celtic nations too..
j4bberw0ck
02-Feb-08, 01:16
there are 93282 people in Scotland who can
That figure - which the BBC also used in the same interview - is actually the total number of people who claim to have "some Gaelic" ranging from "a familiarity with a few words" up to fully fluent. Which is like saying I speak French, German, Russian, Greek, Norwegian, Welsh and Italian, because I have a familiarity with a few words, as well as English. Oh and let's not forget my clear mastery of another dead language - Latin.
The number of people who can speak Gaelic "properly" was quoted at about 60,000.
I can't see how you might claim it all bodes well for the future when (a) you, a Scot who's never been outside Scotland from one of your claims a while back, I seem to recall, is so fired up by it you can't be bothered to learn it, and (b) the number of speakers is surely on the decline along with natives of the Western Isles - the greatest slow-motion economic disaster area in Scotland.
The other issue, of course, is how many of the 60,000 might actually watch the programming. No one would suggest all Welsh speakers watch S4C, so why will Gaelic speakers watch Gaelic language programming? Some fanatics, sure. The rest will carry on tuning in to intellectual powerhouses like Radio 1 and Big Brother because it's not being Gaelic, all subtitled content or appalling soaps on a budget, it's about having content people want to watch (however demeaning it might be).
There are between 500,000 and 700,000 speakers of Welsh, according to different websites. Let's assume that the 700,000 figure is as good as your 93000 Gaelic speakers - in other words, contains a number of people who know a few words only but can't function in the language.
Welsh TV viewer figures are here (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.s4c.com/abouts4c/viewing/e_index.shtml) - most popular programs at around 100000 viewers, so a 20% penetration amongst fluent speakers.
20% of fluent Gaelic speakers is 12,000 viewers, The cost is £20 million. 12000 is fractionally more than the population of Fort William.
Heritage and culture is at its best when it's very, very expensive and lots of people who aren't really interested sound off about how valuable it is!
Boozeburglar
02-Feb-08, 02:57
Pish, and you know it.
That figure - which the BBC also used in the same interview - is actually the total number of people who claim to have "some Gaelic" ranging from "a familiarity with a few words" up to fully fluent. Which is like saying I speak French, German, Russian, Greek, Norwegian, Welsh and Italian, because I have a familiarity with a few words, as well as English. Oh and let's not forget my clear mastery of another dead language - Latin.
The number of people who can speak Gaelic "properly" was quoted at about 60,000.
And those are the only ones who count, are they?
It doesn't matter that there are people in all areas of Scotland who are interested in learning Gaelic, given that every area in Scotland has people with some Gaelic knowledge?
It doesn't matter that the UK Government, the Scottish Government, a large proportion of Scots and the EU think that promoting and safeguarding indigenous languages is something to be encouraged?
BTW, I have some mastery of Latin as well.......but that IS a dead language, which Gaelic is not...despite the efforts made by the UK Government to kill it off.
I can't see how you might claim it all bodes well for the future when (a) you, a Scot who's never been outside Scotland from one of your claims a while back, I seem to recall, is so fired up by it you can't be bothered to learn it, and (b) the number of speakers is surely on the decline along with natives of the Western Isles - the greatest slow-motion economic disaster area in Scotland.
It bodes well for the future of the language that in every region of Scotland there are people of my grandson's age and younger choosing to learn Gaelic in school, and have an interest in the language and culture.
I have never said I have never been outside Scotland.......but I have never been outside the UK.......what has that to do with anything?
I have never learned Gaelic because the only options open to me at school in my day was French, German and Latin....of which I took French and Latin. If Gaelic had been an option, I'd have taken Gaelic.......because I would have been interested and because I thought French a waste of time, but I found it easier than German and I was obliged to take one modern language because of the class I was in.
My home area was not a historical Gaelic speaking one, so if you couldn't sing and join the Gaelic choir..and believe me, I can't sing..there was no opportunity to learn the language.
It makes no odds if the Western Isles is or isn't in economic decline..........it is still a region in which the majority speak Gaelic, and as such they are as entitled to have support for Gaelic as Wales is for Welsh, given that Welsh speaking is predominantly confined to part of Wales.
The other issue, of course, is how many of the 60,000 might actually watch the programming. No one would suggest all Welsh speakers watch S4C, so why will Gaelic speakers watch Gaelic language programming? Some fanatics, sure. The rest will carry on tuning in to intellectual powerhouses like Radio 1 and Big Brother because it's not being Gaelic, all subtitled content or appalling soaps on a budget, it's about having content people want to watch (however demeaning it might be).
I'd have thought that people like you would welcome the removal of Gaelic programmes from the BBC to a dedicated channel......or will it just serve to remove an opportunity to carp against Scots and Scotland?
There are between 500,000 and 700,000 speakers of Welsh, according to different websites. Let's assume that the 700,000 figure is as good as your 93000 Gaelic speakers - in other words, contains a number of people who know a few words only but can't function in the language.
Welsh TV viewer figures are here (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.s4c.com/abouts4c/viewing/e_index.shtml) - most popular programs at around 100000 viewers, so a 20% penetration amongst fluent speakers.
20% of fluent Gaelic speakers is 12,000 viewers, The cost is £20 million. 12000 is fractionally more than the population of Fort William.
Heritage and culture is at its best when it's very, very expensive and lots of people who aren't really interested sound off about how valuable it is!
Until there is a dedicated channel, the viewing figures can only be guessed at......but according to their own figures BBC2 current affairs show Eorpa's average audience is over 60,000, rising to 100,000 on occasions, taking it beyond a Gaelic viewership
I'm afraid I find it hard to quantify Scotland's heritage and culture in monetary terms....and get irritated with the "all down to money" attitude which is so prevalent today.
There are things which are more important than money even if the majority of the population can't benefit from them.
j4bberw0ck
02-Feb-08, 10:08
I'm afraid I find it hard to quantify Scotland's heritage and culture in monetary terms....and get irritated with the "all down to money" attitude which is so prevalent today.
I'm inclined to agree about the "all down to money" thing, as I'm sure anyone does who uses the money-limited NHS and educational systems of this country (the UK). Unfortunately there's only so much to go round; consequently, wouldn't it be better to let us all keep more of what we earn so we can choose how to spend it? On Gaelic? Motorbikes? Education for children? Health?
There are things which are more important than money even if the majority of the population can't benefit from them.And I never, ever, fail to be struck by how many special interest groups believe exactly the same thing. Their passion for wantiing to spend other people's money is always in inverse proportion to the amount of money they themselves are willing, or able, to put in.
When it's other people's money being spent, there are always things more important than it. That's why Governments and politicians are incompetent and corrupt wastrels who shouldn't be trusted with the milk money.
Boozeburglar
02-Feb-08, 12:09
What never ceases to amaze me is the selfishness of the ‘minority’.
Such as those who move to hugely subsidised areas like the Orkney Islands.
Laying the burden of the massively disproportionate cost of their current and future health care, education systems, transport infrastructures, etc. at the feet of the sensible 'mainstream' tax payer seems unfair.
Especially whilst we who pay concurrently opt to minimise cost by living centrally, altruistically eschewing all diversity in favour of homogenization for the greater good.
That said, I respect this ‘special interest group’'s right to their choice, and freedom to act on it.
There is no doubt, however, that there is less historical or cultural argument for us to stump up the bread for these to live out their dreams than, say, for us to help preserve an ancient and valued language and culture that is dear to many who pay taxes and television license fees in Scotland.
Surely society should not exclude people for making choices; whether it is the place they choose to live or the tongue they choose to speak?
j4bberw0ck
02-Feb-08, 12:58
What never ceases to amaze me is the selfishness of the ‘minority’.
Such as those who move to hugely subsidised areas like the Orkney Islands.
Surely society should not exclude people for making choices; whether it is the place they choose to live or the tongue they choose to speak?
Hehehehe. Nice mix of irony, Boozy.
Society shouldn't place limits on peoples' choices, no. But beyond that, it's quite simple.
The Government, both central and local, is charged with the responsibility of providing lifeline services, for which we all pay. So I contribute to the cost of a bridge for the Forth, and you contribute to the cost of Northern Isles ferries. We both contribute to each other's health care, regardless of which of us consumes more (well at least I do; I have no idea about you). The cost of a legal system to protect ourselves (allegedly). And a Police force so they can nick us for speeding and bang up 81 year old men for shouting at teenagers so they can be on hand to protect us.. And all that's right and proper.
Then we get on to "heritage" and "culture"; and you and I both pay so the Arts Council, for instance, can receive hundreds of millions a year so that luvvies in socioeconomic groups A and B can go see Shakespeare or Lloyd Webber for only £80 a seat instead of the full cost of about £120. That full cost is because the industry is organised appallingly badly, and run by self-interested people who are of the view that "heritage and culture is more important than mere money". Consequently they see no need to make rational choices; only to preserve the status quo.
And so it is with Gaelic. Or Norn. Or Doric. Or Cornish. Or Morris Dancing. Important to some, but not lifeline issues. Choice, Boozy. You're absolutely right. It's all about choice, and its concomitant - paying for it (...edit... which is a theme I've developed on in a PM to you)
Nice come-back though :p .
Bearing in mind that the places that Gaelic is still spoken and where it most recently was in general use (after a fashion) are precisely those areas that won't be able to pick up even the slightest ghost of a signal it does seem like a rather patronising exercise in the absurd.
Perhaps the smart money would go to installing the digital transmitters in the most appropriate locations for this service.
Not that this will happen.
It strikes me as some kind of twisted public relations exercise.
j4bberw0ck
02-Feb-08, 18:15
It strikes me as some kind of twisted public relations exercise.
Ah, yes! Politics.......
But my apologies, emb123; I'm repeating what you said :lol::lol:
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