View Full Version : Thank god we have the NHS
I know we all have a moan about waiting times etc but this story shows us how lucky we really are!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/conditions/12/21/teen.liver.transplant.ap/index.html
orkneylass
24-Dec-07, 13:31
I can understand the emotional gut reaction to this story but things are seldom this simple.
The doctors may have receommended the procedure despite almost no chance of success because it would have allowed them to experiment and practice the procedure... does anyone remember the little british girl several years ago given no hope by British doctors, so the parents launched an appeal for treatment in the USA? the child then went through a great deal of suffering and died anyway, at which piont the parents realised that their daughter's rare case had been an opportunity for the doctors to experiment, with no genuine hope of success. And all costs covered by someone else
In the UK, the decision may well have been made by the NHS that nothing more could be done for this teenage girl who would then be kept comfortable to die with some dignity. This may be exactly the same as the conclusion that the insurance company in America has come to.
And bear in mind that neither the NHS or US insurance companies can be bottomless pits - the cost of the operation, with let us say, a 1% chance of survival may have been at the expense of 4 operations on cases with 25% chance of survival. Someone somewhere has to make these decisions in the real world.
just to say , we may have NHS on hospitals and eye clinics but soon we wont have NHS in dentists.:~(
Yes we are lucky to have the NHS and many people in the US suffer through having no health insurance (something Hilary Clinton has promised to change) but no organisation is a bottomless pit and orkneylass is right. Sometimes hard choices have to be made.
As for dentists, we are becoming more like the US and it's disgraceful. For most of us, it's pay extortionate fees or suffer as you can't always rely on emergency treatment.
The doctors may have receommended the procedure despite almost no chance of success because it would have allowed them to experiment and practice the procedure... does anyone remember the little british girl several years ago given no hope by British doctors, so the parents launched an appeal for treatment in the USA?
In their letter, the UCLA doctors said patients in situations similar to Nataline's who undergo transplants have a six-month survival rate of about 65 percent. from the very same article. In other words it was not an experimental procedure and out of 100 patients that undergo it in the same circumstances, at 6 months post operation, 65 are alive. There is a fine line, you are right, between unreasonable suffering and pushing frontiers. But nowadays we can have heart transplants and treat cancer because someone pushed the boundries and questioned limits and also because others were willing to risk unproven treatments.
orkneylass
26-Dec-07, 14:14
That's fair enough but I must admit, I'd rather pay insurance and have the quality of service and access to expert care available in the USA if you are insured - rather than pot luck. waiting lists and MRSA. Ofcourse, if you can't afford health insurance it is a different matter. Do bear in mind that we do all pay for the NHS - we just have a sytem that takes away individual responsibility for taking out insurance, but admittedly one that also covers those that cannot pay.
It's not more than a few weeks ago that there was a case where a thirty odd year old mother had been given a death sentence from cancer because her local NHS Trust had spent so much time bickering about which part should pay for the proposed treatment.
It seems that had she lived in a different area the treatment would have been provided without question.
In 2006 of all the Health Services in Western Europe the NHS managed to make a wonderful entry in 15th place with the added comment, "is portrayed as a 'mediocre overall performer' "
The National Audit Office reports that the NHS kills 34,000 every year due to blunders and that the figure could be as high as 80,000.
Trusts reported nearly a Million incidents of unintentional harm or near-misses in 2004/05.The NAO said it is widely acknowledged that there is significant under-reporting of such incidents and, in reality the NHS has no idea what the true figure is.
To try to pretend that the NHS is perfect is a n absolute nonsense and to pick out one particular failure elsewhere as proof of how much better than every other Health Service just does not stand up to scrutiny, by any measure, with the exception of the enthusiasm of the Ward Staff, it rates as mediocre at best by any comparison with other Health Services.
AS for the incident described in America it is not too long ago that a patient in Britain suffering from a failed kidney had an operation to remove it only to discover tha they kidney removed had been his one remaining good one so we have hardly any reason to wag our fingers at others.
Add to that the case of many patients who are denied life saving drugs on the NHS because of the excuse "they cost too much" and wagging fingers at Insurance Companies seems rather a futile exercise.
Oh, and as far as I am aware all the above information has been derived from Official Sources and not from partisan news media with a axe to grind.
How lucky we are to have such a superior NHS System to the rest of the whole world! :eek:
My husband would not be alive today if his Urology Consultant had not attempted pioneering surgery in May 2005. He had been told on his original consult he would be dead within 6 weeks, and the usual chemo/radiotherapy debate was going on. The new Consultant removed the cancer, plus a margin of good tissue, removed the lymph nodes where the secondary cancer is most likely to manifest. OK it was major surgery (5 times) and the risk the anaesthesia brings, plus the healing time for a large open wound and the risk of infection, but it is a whole heap better than the alternative which was death in agony in a short space of time.
To be perfectly honest, some of you people need to watch Michael Moore's new movie "Sicko"... it really makes you appreciate the NHS.
To be perfectly honest, some of you people need to watch Michael Moore's new movie "Sicko"... it really makes you appreciate the NHS.
Thanks, Jeid, I recommend that people watch that movie as well. It's a real eye-opener! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko)
I'm not saying that the NHS is perfect by any means, but paying health insurance over here in the USA does not guarantee that you're going to get high quality service and expert care, either. Health insurance premiums are not cheap, even if you work for a company that pays part of the premium cost. My husband has to pay several hundreds of dollars every month, even though his employer pays part of the premium. The insured patient still has out-of-pocket expenses to pay, which can be quite substantial. This can add up to hundreds or more per year, when you include insurance deductibles per family member, co-payments for doctor and hospital visits, as well co-payments for prescriptions. Then what the doctors can and cannot do is very much controlled by the health insurance companies.
I used to work for a large medical centre in the US in the 80s, and one of the perks for working for them was that we had free medical insurance through them. By the end of the 80s, medical insurance costs had sky-rocketed so much, that we had to start contributing to the premiums. Also, we had to start paying co-payments per doctor visit and for prescriptions, as well as a co-payment for a hospital admission. The hospital co-payment could be in the hundreds of dollars range, even for a very short stay.
Within the past couple of months, my husband had to have a simple test done for his heart, that the insurance company refused to pay for. Yet when we were living in Germany less than 4 years ago, the test was done at the drop of a hat. We still had the same American insurance company back then, but they had no problem paying for the test to be done in Germany. The reason being that the charge for the test in Germany was far less than in the USA. In fact, my husband had major heart surgery done in Germany nearly 6 years ago, and he required extensive hospitalisation before and after. The American insurance company paid for most of that, because of the reasonable German medical costs. Had the same operation been performed in the US, the cost of that and hospitalisation would have been several times more - and I dread to think what our out-of-pocket expenses would have been!!! :eek:
That film was a huge eye opener for me. I thought that if you had Medical Insurance in the USA, you were covered, very much like the NHS, but you pay for it like any other bills. I cannot believe how corrupt the US Medical Insurance System is... it's unreal.
Michael Moore is not exactly known for honesty in his propaganda films. He is prone to taking comments made years previously and using them out of context as if it is in answer to a question which has just been posed.
People have been known to have a sudden change of clothing partway through a supposedly continuous interview.
I think the game is called, "Spot the Continuity Error"!
As far as accuracy goes I would be more inclined to believe the Marx Brothers.
orkneylass
29-Dec-07, 12:00
One thing is for sure - if someone wanted to make a film about the NHS that would frighten and horrify everyone, there would be plenty of material to work on. The film would carefully avoid showing good practice, dedicated staff or centres of excellence. It is easy to present a one-sided story.
The NHS is just not doing well enough, especially considering the extra money being poured into it. We compare very badly with other European healthcare systems, but comparisons are not the only way of looking at things. We should be able to get treatment within a reasonable timescale knowing that it meets a clear standard, in a clean hospital, with caring, motivated and well-trained staff. You would be lucky to find all that. For those that have had great experiences of the NHS remember just that - you were LUCKY
Michael Moore is not exactly known for honesty in his propaganda films. He is prone to taking comments made years previously and using them out of context as if it is in answer to a question which has just been posed.
People have been known to have a sudden change of clothing partway through a supposedly continuous interview.
I think the game is called, "Spot the Continuity Error"!
As far as accuracy goes I would be more inclined to believe the Marx Brothers.
The NHS is like any other government run organisation - inefficient, wasting money, people and resources. I would rather have it than not but it could be a whole heap better as shown by Gerry Robinson on his TV series. If he can turn one hospital round, what couldn't he do for the whole thing? It must be so discouraging for all those really good people who work for it, see what's wrong and can't do anything.
It's like education - some head teachers can turn failing schools round but do the government learn from them?
I worked in the NHS for a longtime and was very glad to leave, the under staffing on wards is now so commonplace that it isn't even noticed.
Basic care like helping people to shower or bath are being neglected as there simply are not the staff.
How awful for relatives to come in and have to help the patient shower as there are simply not the nursing staff to do it.
IMHO the Scot Ex need to give the power back to those who work on the wards and not managers.
My son may need an operation on his foot and my main concern at this moment is the hygiene on the ward, this is not an unfounded concern. I feel in 2007/2008 in a civilised country the last thing I should be worrying about is my son picking up an infection in hospital.
Yes I am glad we have a system that allows treatment to all but without structured improvements being made it is failing many of the people it was put in place to treat.
One thing is for sure - if someone wanted to make a film about the NHS that would frighten and horrify everyone, there would be plenty of material to work on. The film would carefully avoid showing good practice, dedicated staff or centres of excellence. It is easy to present a one-sided story.
The NHS is just not doing well enough, especially considering the extra money being poured into it. We compare very badly with other European healthcare systems, but comparisons are not the only way of looking at things. We should be able to get treatment within a reasonable timescale knowing that it meets a clear standard, in a clean hospital, with caring, motivated and well-trained staff. You would be lucky to find all that. For those that have had great experiences of the NHS remember just that - you were LUCKY
I agree, orkneylass. I know I am very lucky to be here, and very grateful for the excellent, life-saving care I received in the RIE ICU unit last year.
But -if I hadn't been in RIE in the first place, I wouldn't have succumbed to the hospital acquired infection that nearly killed me. :(
I try not to dwell on it, but also think it likely if he'd had better care, at both primary and hospital level, I might well not have lost my OH to a stroke in 2004.
I have certainly experienced both the best and the worst of the NHS. :confused
orkneylass
29-Dec-07, 15:02
If the sacred myth "our NHS is the envy of the world" is beginning to lose it's power, how long until people are ready for radical reform and a complete change in how the NHS is financed and run? That is the stumbling block. We cannot look backwards because needs, technology and demands have changed so much.
j4bberw0ck
29-Dec-07, 15:20
IMHO the Scot Ex need to give the power back to those who work on the wards and not managers.
Why would people on wards (of whom you say there aren't enough to do what they're doing now) make a better job of running things than managers? I don't care who runs it so long as those on the wards wash their damn hands (I would have expected better of nurses and doctors than to be a primary vector for the spread of MRSA and C.dificile) and that those employed either on contract or as employees do their jobs properly and conscientiously.
Bring back Matron, and / or managers who'll enforce cleaning and other contracts properly.
Margaret M.
29-Dec-07, 15:24
But -if I hadn't been there in the first place, I wouldn't have succumbed to the hospital acquired infection that nearly killed me. :(
I'm glad you beat the infection, Angela, and from having known others who have picked one up whilst in the hospital, I know that recovery from them is not an easy road to travel. Infections courtesy of the hospitals seem to be quite common nowadays -- very unfortunate that basic cleanliness is such a low priority.
Neither Britain nor the U.S. can brag about their health care system. I think Britain ranks number 18 and the U.S. number 37 for health care systems in the world. If one works for a company offering health care benefits in the U.S., the premiums are fairly reasonable but if one has to buy their own insurance it can be quite expensive. One of the main problems here is the low level of care given to those without insurance, particularly if they need to be hospitalized. As I see it, good insurance coverage translates to excellent health care so I am fortunate to have had both. I do believe that some of the best doctors in the world are in the U.S. and the ability to select doctors and not go on a waiting list for care means a lot.
j4bberw0ck
01-Jan-08, 11:58
You won't be saying "Thank god for the NHS" much longer if that gang of corrupt thieves in Downing Street and Westminster get their way.
You know how we all pay for the NHS through our taxes? No choice in the matter (well, for taxpayers, anyway) - no choice at all. "Free for all at the point of delivery" - oh yeah, right. Each and every person in the country, theoretically, pays £1500 per year for the NHS; more precisely, each and every one of the 30,000,000 taxpayers in this country pays £3,000. Since the majority of taxpayers don't pay £3000 in tax, or havng paid it get it back through tax credits and other stupidities, it really means that those who do pay, pay BIG.
But in addition to postcode prescribing and some of the lowest standards of care in Europe, that nice Mr Brown now proposes they have the power to choose (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=UT25X32EL25MFQFIQMGCFFOAVCBQ UIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/01/nhealth201.xml) whether to treat you. Overweight? Smoker? Not enough exercise? Cholesterol too high? Bit too much happy juice over New Year? Sorry.......
Hopefully they'll extend the same courtesy to NHS staff so that crowds of overweight staff smoking outside the main door will be told they don't have a job any more unless they give up, or doctors who persist in wearing ties and having beards are told to go home, shave and change, or be fired. Or medical staff in wards where MRSA and the like run rampant are fired for clinical negligence because they don't wash their hands between patients.
But somehow, I don't think so.
You won't be saying "Thank god for the NHS" much longer if that gang of corrupt thieves in Downing Street and Westminster get their way.
You know how we all pay for the NHS through our taxes? No choice in the matter (well, for taxpayers, anyway) - no choice at all. "Free for all at the point of delivery" - oh yeah, right. Each and every person in the country, theoretically, pays £1500 per year for the NHS; more precisely, each and every one of the 30,000,000 taxpayers in this country pays £3,000. Since the majority of taxpayers don't pay £3000 in tax, or havng paid it get it back through tax credits and other stupidities, it really means that those who do pay, pay BIG.
But in addition to postcode prescribing and some of the lowest standards of care in Europe, that nice Mr Brown now proposes they have the power to choose (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=UT25X32EL25MFQFIQMGCFFOAVCBQ UIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/01/nhealth201.xml) whether to treat you. Overweight? Smoker? Not enough exercise? Cholesterol too high? Bit too much happy juice over New Year? Sorry.......
Hopefully they'll extend the same courtesy to NHS staff so that crowds of overweight staff smoking outside the main door will be told they don't have a job any more unless they give up, or doctors who persist in wearing ties and having beards are told to go home, shave and change, or be fired. Or medical staff in wards where MRSA and the like run rampant are fired for clinical negligence because they don't wash their hands between patients.
But somehow, I don't think so.
very well said and so very true......happy new year.
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