An Economic Case for Scottish Independence

[Corky Smeek]

For those of you who harbour doubts about whether Scotland could survive as an independent country please watch this. It's only ¼ of an hour out of your life and you may find it very enlightening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2i_HCUUkEs

[Corky Smeek]

This shows an interesting array of tables - https://howmuch.net/articles/richest-countries-in-the-world

Ireland, which for most of my lifetime, has been portrayed by Westminster as an economic basket-case is now the 5th richest country in the World based on per capita GDP. It is also the 2nd richest country in Europe by the same measure.

Well played Ireland! Leave the UK; join the EU; join the Euro and never look back. There may be some lessons in there for Scotland, don't you think?

[The Horseman]

Perhaps...but who will lead you there?

[Fulmar]

Personally, I do wonder how much appetite there is among Scots for applying to join the EU- none at all among those with whom I speak. I consider that the pandemic has fundamentally changed everything and that things will not go back to 'business as usual' but I do not foresee yet what shape this might take. I daresay there will be a series of steps and changes that may surprise us all.

[Gronnuck]

This shows an interesting array of tables - https://howmuch.net/articles/richest-countries-in-the-world

Ireland, which for most of my lifetime, has been portrayed by Westminster as an economic basket-case is now the 5th richest country in the World based on per capita GDP. It is also the 2nd richest country in Europe by the same measure.

Well played Ireland! Leave the UK; join the EU; join the Euro and never look back. There may be some lessons in there for Scotland, don't you think?

Let us not forget it has taken Ireland nearly 100 years to arrive at this point. Their Punt was tied to the Bank of England pound until they switched to the Euro in 2002. Ireland has benefited from its membership of the EU. Even now they are opening up new trade routes to circumvent having to cross the UK mainland. Scotland could certainly learn from this.

[Gronnuck]

Perhaps...but who will lead you there?

The plan is for Scotland to hold a General Election within 18 months of independence so that the People of Scotland can choose whatever shade of government they wish to lead them. The old parties will change or be replaced to reflect the new normal. Independence is normal. Hundreds of countries have gained their independence from the UK, non of them has asked to return to UK rule. There are lots of small normal countries making their way in the world. Why is it Horseman that you find this so strange?

[Corky Smeek]

Whether there is an appetite in Scotland for re-joining the EU is currently irrelevant. The Scottish electorate made it clear in 2016 what they wanted and they were ignored. The only way to ensure the Scottish electorate get what they vote for is through independence. If, after that is achieved the people of Scotland then vote not to re-apply to the EU then that is absolutely fine with me. I won't like it but I will accept it as being the choice of the Scottish electorate. The decision will have been made in Scotland by the people who live here.

[Fulmar]

Can you have one without the other Corky?

[Corky Smeek]

Can you have one without the other Corky?


I'm genuinely not sure what you mean. Any chance you could elaborate?

[The Horseman]

[QUOTE=Corky Smeek;1197887]Whether there is an appetite in Scotland for re-joining the EU is currently irrelevant. The Scottish electorate made it clear in 2016 what they wanted and they were ignored.

Were they really? I thought the vote was against separation!

[Corky Smeek]

[QUOTE=Corky Smeek;1197887]Whether there is an appetite in Scotland for re-joining the EU is currently irrelevant. The Scottish electorate made it clear in 2016 what they wanted and they were ignored.

Were they really? I thought the vote was against separation!

Might I suggest you check your dates.

[The Horseman]

But how could you expect any vote to succeed, when you voted to stay in the UK!

[The Horseman]

The plan is for Scotland to hold a General Election within 18 months of independence so that the People of Scotland can choose whatever shade of government they wish to lead them. The old parties will change or be replaced to reflect the new normal. Independence is normal. Hundreds of countries have gained their independence from the UK, non of them has asked to return to UK rule. There are lots of small normal countries making their way in the world. Why is it Horseman that you find this so strange?

Of course, but you haven’t left yet...how can there be a solid Plan!
There is a ‘power struggle’ going on which has not abated!
This is not a ‘happy’ leadership.
First they Investigated Civilly, and when that didn’t work, Criminal Charges were brought forward which failed.
And these are the people who are going to Lead! I dunno!
Generally, the populace gathers behind The Leadership........but.......

[Fulmar]

I meant the economic arguments really.

[Corky Smeek]

I meant the economic arguments really.

I thought the video covered that admirably.

[The Horseman]

My thoughts, after watching this scenario for years....

As in Elections, one must pick their time to go forward with ‘new beginnings’....Not in the middle of the Worst Crises since The 40’s.
And the money being spent on Lawyers is astronomical! Someone said ‘No Lawyers are being paid’.
Everything that is going on with the Leadership in in Lawyers hands. The hearings are all conducted with Legal Advisors.... £Millions are being spent on them, and of course the £500k to the former leader........and that is only the beginning. He will likely have his defence fees paid for again, as he may show that this was ‘a Retribution Prosecution’. ANYTHING TO TAKE SALMOND OUT! And the leader looks like the cartoon of someone hanging on a window ledge by their fingertips.
There are many Scots where I am, and the are watching this fiasco with amazement.

As a matter of interest, you can file a Freedom of Information request, and ascertain the amount of Legal Fees paid last year. Could be a shocker....then put that against the amount of money for Care/ lack of/ that is being given to The Scots North of Inverness.
I lived there and was going back every year. I read about the Ambulance calls, and the time it was taking to Serve the Public in a timely manner.
Scotland voted No to leaving, but later to staying in the EU. You cannot have it both ways. Choices were made...C’est la vie!
I think that the EU is in serious trouble, and not to be joined to at the present time.
In fact people are calling the EU Countries bailing each other out, akin to a Ponzi Scheme, which will eventually fall.

Go for Independence when you know it will happen, not another messed up try!

[The Horseman]

I just read more revelations...If this keeps going you won’t have a Party to cling to.

[Corky Smeek]

@ Horseman

You really don't get it at all do you?

Independence is a heartfelt wish for many people living in Scotland. They are not going to be moved from that standpoint because of a dispute between two prominent players. The destination is the important thing.

[The Horseman]

@ Horseman

You really don't get it at all do you?

Independence is a heartfelt wish for many people living in Scotland. They are not going to be moved from that standpoint because of a dispute between two prominent players. The destination is the important thing.

I understand fully....but Voters are ‘fickle people’! They will get fed up with the ongoing disputes and say ‘To H.....with you.
They are depending on the SNP to do this. Everything is stalled between two power hungry people.
You know what will happen, and it happened here....
Voted into power will be ‘The lessor of the Evils......and the SNP will be finished for years.
Where does Bill Fernie stand in this? He seems to be an experienced level headed person!

[Corky Smeek]

I didn't think you got it and you have just proved me correct.

[The Horseman]

I didn't think you got it and you have just proved me correct.

The destination is not attainable the way things are going.....you need more than Wishful thinking and prayer.
There are many things in people’s hearts, but one needs a Strategy to fulfil same.

[Corky Smeek]

The destination is not attainable the way things are going.....you need more than Wishful thinking and prayer.
There are many things in people’s hearts, but one needs a Strategy to fulfil same.


Yes, but you appear to think that if you can throw lots of mud and make enough of it stick then you can bring an end to the independence movement. My argument is that, for many people, the belief in an independent Scotland runs deep and that our conviction to achieving our aim is not going to be swayed because two folk, however senior, fell out.

[The Horseman]

I am not throwing mud.....I can end the Movement?........What you don’t understand, is that these are the Two People, with their followers on either side, are going to turn people off.
The General Public want what is best for them, not to listen and hear this ‘s.......’ every day.
These two people as you call them, are the ones to take Scotland in a new direction. How can they, when they cannot get their ‘own house in order’!

[Corky Smeek]

You really, really still don't get it. I'll have one final go.

I have been an independence supporter for over 50 years. A dispute between two prominent figures within the movement is not going to make me, or any other ardent independence supporter, suddenly abandon their lifelong beliefs and become unionists. The dispute may represent a bump in the road towards our destination but that is all.

You are correct in your assertion that the general public want what is best for them. Unfortunately, the Scottish general public are constantly denied what they want by a Tory government who ignore their wishes, hopes and aspirations. That is why support for independence is increasing.

Talking of getting one's house in order you know, as well as I do, that the Scottish Tories pinned their election hopes on removing NS. They have been caught out as lying, conniving hypocrites who don't give a damn about Scotland. They have been more concerned about damaging NS than having any meaningful agenda for Scotland's future. They have been shown up for what they really are. Perhaps they should crawl out from under the rock they have been inhabiting and do some re-ordering of their own household. They have brought just as much disrepute upon the Scottish political scene as the AS/NS dispute has done.

[The Horseman]

Yes, there are the Ardent Supporters of the SNP. But you will have to convince those in the middle to jump and vote for Independence!
Not so easy, but these are the people you want on your side.
You got your vote and you/they turned it down....so if you ever get another vote then make sure you have the people. Not like the last time!

Actually the word is the supporters of the SNP are getting fed up. And they are losing confidence! Check it out!

[Corky Smeek]

Nope. Still not getting it.

Not everyone who votes SNP wants independence. Not everyone who wants independence votes SNP.

New poll out today shows an increase in support for the SNP of 4% - https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/03/sizzling-survation-survey-suggests-snp.html

[The Horseman]

Nope. Still not getting it.

Not everyone who votes SNP wants independence. Not everyone who wants independence votes SNP.

New poll out today shows an increase in support for the SNP of 4% - https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/03/sizzling-survation-survey-suggests-snp.html


Insert the Word...SUGGESTS.......That is not a ‘definitive’ number. But, didn’t the SNP think the same in 2014?

[Fulmar]

Well, now they can vote Alba if they want Independence and not the SNP.
Though why any woman would vote for a party led by Alex Salmond is beyond me.

[The Horseman]

Corky......here you all are again celebrating the fact that you may have maybe One % point over........
If you want to truly win you need it a lot higher than that.
Most decent Pollsters add Plus or Minus to their figures, so that the ‘undetermined’ people can swing either way, and you can still get 50% plus.

It seems you are all so desperate with this ‘winning thing’, that you forget there are ‘fickle’ people in the World, who one day will say one thing and then change it! Ya gotta get your ‘S......t’ together!

[dc1]

i have been a unionist for at least 60 yrs and would say we were better of in caithness before we had the snp in power for example our roads were in better condition we used to be able to have hospital appointments up here now have to go to inverness for them which only lasted about 10 mins i am in my 70 ties and still work and pay my taxes they ,dont look past inverness all they think about is the south of scotland

[Corky Smeek]

i have been a unionist for at least 60 yrs and would say we were better of in caithness before we had the snp in power for example our roads were in better condition we used to be able to have hospital appointments up here now have to go to inverness for them which only lasted about 10 mins i am in my 70 ties and still work and pay my taxes they ,dont look past inverness all they think about is the south of scotland

Ok, so you say the roads are in worse condition now and you blame the SNP. Fixing the non-trunk roads in Caithness is the responsibility of Highland Council who are run by a Unionist coalition of independents, Liberal Democrats and Labour. I don't mind you getting upset about the state of the roads but at least blame the correct people.

In so far as NHS (Scotland) is concerned you have to remember that we basically have a pocket-money economy in Scotland. Westminster decides how much money we get to spend. If we were able to keep all the revenue generated in Scotland and you were still having to travel to Raigmore for 10 minute appointments then I would share your concern. However, faced with a Tory government intent upon reducing the power and influence of Holyrood and upon privatising the NHS then I think, once more, you need to look elsewhere to for someone to blame.
If you are unhappy with the current NHS services in Caithness then I shudder to think how you would react to Westminster, or Unionist parties in Scotland, regaining control of them. For a start you would have to pay for any prescriptions - currently £9.15 per item in England.

If you want people living in another country to decide what government you get in this country then by all means vote for a Unionist party. But, I guarantee you a government which doesn't look past the M25 is not the answer.

[The Horseman]

What about the money the SNP has been stashing away for Indyref2......?
Wouldn't that be better spent on all that needs done!

[Fulmar]

Well, there is thankfully enough money in the NHS in Scotland to give a 4% pay rise to NHS workers compared to only 1% in the rest of the UK.
In what way is the Westminster govt intention curtailing the power of Holyrood? Also, just about everyone I meet thinks that the Holyrood govt is only interested in those living in the Central Belt- look at the Groat every week and you'll see that view upheld. You might not like it Corky but there it is- and plenty of evidence for it in my opinion.

[Corky Smeek]

What about the money the SNP has been stashing away for Indyref2......?
Wouldn't that be better spent on all that needs done!


How many times do you have to be told? The SNP stood at the last general election (and others previously) with a manifesto pledge to hold an IndyRef, if elected. There is no difference between that pledge and any another, for example a pledge to scrap prescription charges or bridge tolls. The electorate have effectively approved the spending by electing the party who promised to do the things it said it would and for which the people voted.

You have tried this angle umpteen times. Moaning because a party does what it said it would do. You would have plenty to say if it didn't do what was in its manifesto.

[dc1]

but who centralised everthing but snp the police you go to a station now and you will be very lucky to be able to see one and that is just one example of many , but thats not surprisng because they are looking after those who vote for them and you will never guess where they come from could it be the south of scotland.

[Corky Smeek]

Well, there is thankfully enough money in the NHS in Scotland to give a 4% pay rise to NHS workers compared to only 1% in the rest of the UK.
In what way is the Westminster govt intention curtailing the power of Holyrood? Also, just about everyone I meet thinks that the Holyrood govt is only interested in those living in the Central Belt- look at the Groat every week and you'll see that view upheld. You might not like it Corky but there it is- and plenty of evidence for it in my opinion.

At least the Scottish Government recognises and respects the massive contribution made by NHS staff over the past year, in particular. The same certainly cannot be said for the Tories who lavish praise on NHS staff then slap them in the face with a derisory 1% pay offer. But, if that's the kind of government you want then you know how to vote.

If you are not sure how the Tories intend curtailing the power of Holyrood then just Google "UK Internal Market Bill"; "Westminster Power Grab" or some other such term.

I have lived all over Scotland including the central belt. No matter where it was the locals always felt they were ignored at the expense of somewhere else. The grass is always greener.....

[Corky Smeek]

but who centralised everthing but snp the police you go to a station now and you will be very lucky to be able to see one and that is just one example of many , but thats not surprisng because they are looking after those who vote for them and you will never guess where they come from could it be the south of scotland.


OK, I tell you what. Vote Tory and let them reduce the size of government. That'll save a fortune but the general public won't see any of it. Quite the opposite, in fact, as the cost of hitherto free public services will fall upon you and me. They will privatise the NHS, the Police, your bin collection, pothole fixing etc, etc. If you would rather pay £5,000 for a cataract operation; have your grandchildren denied tertiary education because they cannot afford the fees and still not have your potholes fixed then you know what to do. In the words of the song - "You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone".

[The Horseman]

How many times do you have to be told? The SNP stood at the last general election (and others previously) with a manifesto pledge to hold an IndyRef, if elected. There is no difference between that pledge and any another, for example a pledge to scrap prescription charges or bridge tolls. The electorate have effectively approved the spending by electing the party who promised to do the things it said it would and for which the people voted.

You have tried this angle umpteen times. Moaning because a party does what it said it would do. You would have plenty to say if it didn't do what was in its manifesto.

They were given their chance.....They said they will continue until they win......Lost it..and you don’t mention the money..£20 M.......or more.
The poor ‘Fowk’ would like a bit.
And you are forgetting the £MILLIONS the two ‘fish’ are using for Lawyers etc.
Did I ever think the Scots would be so stupid to put up with this. A def NO!

The ideology that the ‘Powers that Be’ can go after someone, anyone, and lose, and have to pay out $millions, and then force the Criminal System to do their dirty work and even lose that in Court....Sounds like Russia!
Trust me....this will affect the future of Scotland. Never mind what the sympathetic Media pundits and one sided Polls say..
You are in trouble.
Give all this a chance to calm down and then try. Stop spouting off about Manifestos! Use some common sense!

[Fulmar]

''They will privatise the NHS, the Police, your bin collection, pothole fixing etc, etc. If you would rather pay £5,000 for a cataract operation; have your grandchildren denied tertiary education because they cannot afford the fees and still not have your potholes fixed then you know what to do. In the words of the song - "You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone".

There is no evidence for any of this and I am not a Tory and have never voted for them- but really. We do have a Scottish Parliament here and no party, Tories included have said anything about privatising the NHS which is devolved as we all know- along with many other powers including tax raising ones.

[Corky Smeek]

''They will privatise the NHS, the Police, your bin collection, pothole fixing etc, etc. If you would rather pay £5,000 for a cataract operation; have your grandchildren denied tertiary education because they cannot afford the fees and still not have your potholes fixed then you know what to do. In the words of the song - "You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone".

There is no evidence for any of this and I am not a Tory and have never voted for them- but really. We do have a Scottish Parliament here and no party, Tories included have said anything about privatising the NHS which is devolved as we all know- along with many other powers including tax raising ones.

If you seriously believe there is no evidence then you really haven't been keeping up.

1. NHS - Look at some of the things the Tories have done in England - The Health & Social Care Act 2012 provides for greater access to the NHS market for private companies. Following that NHS contracts have been thrown open to private bidders.Two of these stirred up serious local opposition when it was announced that private companies could bid. The first was a £1.2 billion contract to provide end of life and cancer care in Staffordshire. The second was an £800 million contract to deliver services to the elderly in Cambridgeshire.

Also, it doesn't matter a hoot if the NHS in devolved. The UK controls around 80% of the Scottish economy and Westminster will use access to it to achieve trade deals. It will trample all over Holyrood if necessary.

2. Tertiary Education - Scottish students applying to a Scottish University attract fees of c.£1820/year. In most cases the Scottish Government pays these. English students applying to an English University attract fees of c.£9,250/year and in most cases have to pay these themselves.

Is that enough evidence for you?

[dc1]

i know one thing up here in the north it does not benefit us having holyrood, but i think we were better of under westminster rule,. and by the way i have never voted tory

[Corky Smeek]

i know one thing up here in the north it does not benefit us having holyrood, but i think we were better of under westminster rule,. and by the way i have never voted tory


Ok then. I expect you will want to pay back all your free prescriptions over the last 10 years; your free bus travel; free eye tests, all the subsidised ferry crossings you may have made; all former toll bridge fees your were freed from. While we are at it I take it you want Wick High School demolished since, according to you, it has presumably not provided any benefit either. Please feel free to send your cheque down to Holyrood.

Then, of course there are all the things which might not affect you directly but do benefit lots of others living in the north of Scotland. I take it you want to see an end to baby boxes, free sanitary products, affordable house building; same sex marriage.

As I said; "You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone".

[dc1]

with the amount of tax i have paid and still pay i am quite happy i have paid my way, have you

[Corky Smeek]

with the amount of tax i have paid and still pay i am quite happy i have paid my way, have you


So, you are not prepared to concede that you have benefited enormously from us having a parliament in Holyrood despite all the evidence I presented to you. You are not even prepared to argue against any of the evidence I gave. The simple fact is that if the Scottish Government had not done all the things I mentioned previously (and a whole lot more besides) you and most people is Caithness would be worse off than you currently are.

Oh, and for the record I find your closing remark to be distasteful in the extreme. Trying to gain the moral high ground by casting such aspersions does you little credit.

[dc1]

it was you who through out the first distasteful remark that i had to be a tory to be a unionest

[Corky Smeek]

it was you who through out the first distasteful remark that i had to be a tory to be a unionest

Nah! Not taking the bait.