The Post-Brexit Power Grab

[Corky Smeek]

This is just the start.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55687977


How many more broken promises? How many more lies? How many more gross deceits?

The simple fact of the matter is Westminster hates Holyrood. It hates us having any power over our own lives, so it is taking power back. The power grab was forecast yet scoffed at by the arch-Unionists on here. Almost immediately Brexit was done, it started. And this is just the beginning. How long will it be before the USA demands access to the Scottish NHS as part of a UK/US trade deal? How long before we have no choice but to have chlorinated chicken in our shops because a trade deal says we have to? How long before our shelves are full of GM foods?

And what about our fishing industry? Deliberately sacrificed to get Brexit done, with the added advantage (for them) that once it has completely collapsed Westminster can claim that we are now even less self-sufficient as a country. It's almost as if Westminster wants to destroy the Scottish economy, piece by piece, so that it can then "bail us out" and claim we are too poor and too stupid to run our own affairs.

We simply cannot allow our lives to be ruled by people who either ignore our wishes or who are actively trying to put us back in our pre-devolution box. Fortunately, the upcoming Holyrood election will give us another chance to demonstrate how we feel about these matters.

[The Horseman]

USA...NHS? Access?
Chlorinated Chicken? No America have died yet..have they?......if so Stats and References...
GM foods are already with you....
Gosh you are so unhappy! Your still alive! Many are not!

I mean no respect, but perhaps get The Two Fish sorted out before you criticize everything else! Your Gov’t is making World headlines! And they are not good.

[Corky Smeek]

I mean no respect, but perhaps get The Two Fish sorted out before you criticize everything else! Your Gov’t is making World headlines! And they are not good.

I really have no idea what you are referring to here.

[The Horseman]

Salmond and Sturgeon....As quoted by BBC.

[Corky Smeek]

A couple of points.

I've never heard of a fish called Salmond - Wanda, yes but never Salmond.

You appear to be adopting the standard unionist argument of saying we can't consider Indy until "x" is sorted out. The problem is; there is always an "x" unionists consider needs sorting out before they can consider Indy. We have had enough.

[The Horseman]

Corky.....SALMOND.....SALMON, get it........?
STURGEON...STURGEON....”

You have to get ‘Gov’t’ united to thrust ahead with change.....even if you did win the Ref., how could anyone rule with everyone with such different views.
UNITED WE WIN....DIVIDED WE FAIL.....
Again...The money you are putting away for the Vote, should be used to help the poor.
Do you want a replica of the Brexit mess!!
........s

[Corky Smeek]

Duh! I got it. It's just that it is stupid.

You have made all of these points on countless occasions and on every occasion people on this side of the argument have gone to great lengths to point out the failures in your argument. I see no point in wasting time telling you the same stuff over and over again when you are clearly in no mind to accept what is staring you in the face.

[The Horseman]

Corky....is there anything I have said that is untrue?
Say so if you disagree with me, but have some Ammo! Ty..

[Corky Smeek]

I refer you to the response I gave earlier.

[The Horseman]

I refer you to the response I gave earlier.


Come ‘Hell or High Water’! Bad way to turn a Country around!

[stumpy]

You're becoming increasingly incoherent, Horseman. It's probably pointless engaging with you, but
you seem obsessed with the SNP leadership as seen from your own narrow and peculiar perspective. I have relatives in Germany, and I can guarantee you that what they read about involves Scotland's politics and attitudes to Europe, not primary school fish jokes or gossip. Read a Scottish or UK newspaper that looks at the press in other countries and you'll see a surprising amount of comment and analysis on the independence question.

On the other hand, if you think CNN is a red conspiracy and take the like of Fox News seriously, you'll probably believe any amount of nonsense...

[The Horseman]

I took the ‘levity’ out. Sorry about that.
I haven't seen a small respected Country with so many probs....especially those of a Sexual nature.
Do you condone what is happening at the Leadership Level!
Yes, I have read much about INDYREF2. Gossip?
Some people are like horses ‘we blinders’.

[Gronnuck]

I fail to see what business the future of Scotland has to do with you The Horseman, since you don’t live here and persist on doing down Scotland at every turn. Recent polls indicate that increasing number of the people of Scotland favour independence. The independence movement is far bigger than the SNP and it continues to grow. The SNP are but a means to an end, independence. Once Scotland is free of Westminster, we can choose a government of whatever shade we want/need. Yet you and your unionist parties take every opportunity to talk down our great country. There are dozens of small countries across the world who have become independent of the UK, why should Scotland be the exception?

[The Horseman]

‘Doing Down’..........just like the American poet you quote.
You are correct...I don’t live there, but am somewhat proud if my Heritage, as are all the Emigrants! And usually visit nearly every year!
Likely you will get your way...sometime...but the Antics of your Chosen Leaders would be quite hard to find elsewhere. These are your Leaders. I worked in and for Gov’t, and generally behind the scenes probs are dealt with..Behind the scenes!
And what I do find troubling, is that in the midst of the Worst situation since ‘A World War’ or the previous Epidemics, some of you are attempting to ‘fracture’ the cohesiveness that is required to rid us of This Beast. And I understand putting much needed money away for the ‘The Cause’.
Scots were never known for Selfishness!

[Gronnuck]

And what I do find troubling, is that in the midst of the Worst situation since ‘A World War’ or the previous Epidemics, some of you are attempting to ‘fracture’ the cohesiveness that is required to rid us of This Beast.

What is this ‘cohesiveness’ you speak of? If you are talking of the United Kingdom there had been little or no ‘cohesiveness’ since the Brexit referendum in 2016 where a tiny majority of English voters elected to drag everyone out of the EU. 62% of people of Scotland voted to remain. We are justifiably aggrieved because in the 2014 Independence referendum, we were promised that in order to remain in the EU we had to vote ‘No’. Our masters in Westminster reneged on us because they bowed to the rancid Ethnic nationalism growing in England.


And I understand putting much needed money away for the ‘The Cause’.
Scots were never known for Selfishness!

What are you implying? Cite evidence please.

[The Horseman]

Gosh.....The Pandemic! You do have a way of moving away from the most important issue of our time.
On reading several of ‘your’ newspapers, there is money being set aside for Indyref2.
This isn't ‘a debate.....Its our Opinion Piece!
All Parties/Countries should stand together and tackle The Pandemic. Then, and only then.... do The Indyref2 thingy! SIMPLES REALLY!

[Gronnuck]

Gosh.....The Pandemic! You do have a way of moving away from the most important issue of our time.
On reading several of ‘your’ newspapers, there is money being set aside for Indyref2.
This isn't ‘a debate.....Its our Opinion Piece!
All Parties/Countries should stand together and tackle The Pandemic. Then, and only then.... do The Indyref2 thingy! SIMPLES REALLY!

By your own admission I can see you view everything to do with Scotland through the London-centric main stream media which is renowned for talking Scotland down.
You make no mention of the Tory government’s relentless push for Brexit while it deals with the pandemic. Yet argue that the people of Scotland should not be pursuing independence until the pandemic has been dealt with. A prime example of double-standards and hypocrisy if ever there was one.

[The Horseman]

The Brexit ‘thingy’ was ongoing a long time prior to The Pandemic.
You figure out what Orkney and Shetland will do.........that fits into this equation!
Get your Scottish Leaders ‘ducks in a row’. They are all fighting each other..........from what I see, viewing a series of Media outlets, you are in one big mess. If Scotland wants to GO, then set the stage properly.
I am not against it, but it has to be done properly this time.

[Gronnuck]

The Brexit ‘thingy’ was ongoing a long time prior to The Pandemic.
You figure out what Orkney and Shetland will do.........that fits into this equation!
Get your Scottish Leaders ‘ducks in a row’. They are all fighting each other..........from what I see, viewing a series of Media outlets, you are in one big mess. If Scotland wants to GO, then set the stage properly.
I am not against it, but it has to be done properly this time.

As soon as the pandemic was recognised as a problem Scotgov called for a pause in Brexit. The EU called for an extension to the 'transition period'; Wales and NI called for caution and further debate, but the Westminster Tory government stuck by its mantra, ‘get Brexit done.’ So, we are where we are.
Orkney and Shetland have been part of Scotland since centuries before the Union with England and remain part of Scotland, no question. You are making the same argument as the unionists and failing to recognise the difference between a country, a county, an island or a region, however nebulous it may be.
As I said before, the independence movement is bigger than both Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond. Clearly you choose not to recognise that.
Our immediate concern is Westminster’s Internal Market Bill and the proposed ‘UK Wealth Fund’ which have been designed to undermine the devolved administrations and in particular the Holyrood parliament. When they are enforced, the logical result will be the sell-off of Scottish Water’s domestic water supply and distribution, the rescinding of the moratorium on Fracking across the Central Belt, the enforced further privatisation of the Scottish NHS and the perpetual presence of nuclear WMD within 35 miles of our most populous city. Scotland did not vote for this, or this Tory government, indeed Scotland has not supported a Tory government since 1955.
Finally, we have seen a proliferation of smears across the media in recent months; it is what the Greater England Project does and they are entirely expected. You choose whatever you want to believe but I choose to have faith in the will of the people of Scotland.

[Corky Smeek]

I was interested in The Horseman's view that, "... the Antics of your Chosen Leaders would be quite hard to find elsewhere." A remarkable assertion given what has been happening over the last four years in the USA. It also took only 2 minutes on Google to find some example of impropriety in her/his adopted homeland.

Canada's Rich History of Political Disgrace (https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/canadas-rich-history-of-political-disgrace) is just one of many.

Indeed there have been so many that Wikipedia has an entire entry devoted to Political Scandals in Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_scandals_in_Canada). Just a little extra research brings up literally dozens of accounts of the various scandals involving Justin Trudeau - List of Scandals and Missteps Involving Canada's Trudeau (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-canada-election-missteps-factbox/list-of-scandals-and-missteps-involving-canadas-trudeau-idUSKBN1W422D)is one recently published by Reuters.

A sense of proportion please. But if you want to engage in a game of Political Disgrace Top Trumps then I'm sure that Scotland would fare very favourably.

[The Horseman]

Well Corky....thank you for that ‘raft’ of information.

Canada........
You start with Sir John A Macdonald. Frae Scotland.
And end with Justin Trudeau.....His Mother was a ‘Sinclair’ frae Caithness!
I didn't bother going any further......you try to scrape the bottom of the barrel, but it ends up being your own!

Unionist.....take a look at the true meaning.
I would have to think that you are ‘Havering’! Laughing Emojee!

Political Disgrace...not so...
It is necessary to get people ‘on the same page’ to be successful. How can you Unite a Country with what is going on! Ty...s

[Rheghead]

I just think that my precious England needs to cut loose Scotland so that the Scots can decide their own future. Scotland will have a bright prosperous future given her abundant natural resources and population skill level. I am warm to having an independent Scotland as a friendly neighbour with common goals. But I believe their communist ideals will undermine English nationalism if we stay together in Union.

[The Horseman]

I agree with Rheg.......but lets do it at a more appropriate time.
Methinks Corky ‘ain't’ listening to the Latest news. Things are not getting better.
Get Covid out of the way, and get the 2 Ministers....first and second, with their appropriate ‘baggage’ out of the way, and Scotland may be successful in finding it’s way to/as a Free Country!

[Corky Smeek]

@ The Horseman

If Covid 19 was cured tomorrow and on Monday, Salmond and Sturgeon were both banished for good, to the salt mines of Siberia you would just think of another "now is not the time excuse". Oh!, we can't have IndyRef 2 now because only 8 out 10 cats prefer Whiskas. We must make sure it's at least least 9 out 10 before we can agree. Sorry, you can't hold an IndyRef now as far too many folk are still putting their bins out too early. Perhaps when we have solved the age-old problems of how many roads must a man walk down and why it never rains in Southern California it'll be OK but not before. Unionists will always find an excuse for denying us our democratic right. Remember, any Union that prevents you from leaving is not really a Union; it's a hostage situation.

[The Horseman]

The people Spoke! Simples.

[Fulmar]

Things have changed since Indyref1 Horseman. Maybe if you lived in Scotland, you would fully realise that. Anyway, I think that moves are now afoot that are unstoppable to hold the second referendum. I want it to be on a legal footing though and to have the full weight it needs and I'm not too sure that even a sweeping SNP majority in the election indicates that. But I agree with Corky that with a clear majority now wanting to leave, at least as indicated by opinion polls, then that referendum needs to be held. I believe wholeheartedly in democracy and actually, if Scotland does vote for it then I would want it to be amicable and co operative with England and the rest of the UK (what's left of it) and the best way for that to happen is for Westminster I just typed Westmonster!) to do the decent thing. I speak as one who has an awful lot of reservations and considering not voting when it happens as I think that the future belongs to the young and I am not in the right age group.

[Corky Smeek]

@ Fulmar


I completely understand that you and others have reservations about independence. It's a huge step so it's entirely natural to be apprehensive. A few points though:-


Regardless of your age, your vote counts as does the vote of every other eligible voter in Scotland. I am no poulet du printemps myself but I make sure I vote in every election. You have as much right to have your voice heard as anyone else. The validity of any vote will only be enhanced if the turnout is high.


I agree it is preferable to have the vote carried out on a legal footing with a S.30 agreement. However, Westminster knows it holds all the aces in that respect and can just keep saying "now is not the time". Did you see George Osborne's (https://archive.vn/TJqMs#selection-2163.95-2163.533) comments on the matter last week? A couple of quotes sum up what I believe is the general mood in government. Firstly, "So what’s the second plan? Simple. Refuse to hold a referendum. It’s the only sure way you won’t lose one. Yes, the SNP will be in full cry — but so what?" and then there was the even more damning, "There’s a risk that the Scottish government holds its own plebiscite — but that won’t be legal, and the courts will stop the arms of the Scottish state, like the police and civil service taking part. Ask the jailed Catalonian leaders how their illegal poll worked out. The only way you can have legal path to independence is through a referendum that is voted for by the House of Commons. So don’t vote for one. Whatever the provocation.". Faced with such blind intransigence and denial of the clear will of the Scottish people to have IndyRef2, it may mean we have to adopt a different approach.


Also, the preservation of friendly relations with rUK would be a priority for any government in an independent Scotland. Why would it be otherwise? Brexit has shown us that cutting off your nose to spite your face is foolhardy in the extreme. Scotland and the rUK would both want good trade relations. It is not an anyone's interest for Indy to be anything other than amicable and co-operative.


Finally, given your apprehension, ask yourself how many countries who have gained independence have regretted it. Most of those did not have the advantages Scotland has yet they managed to make a success of it. Scotland can too.

[Fulmar]

Hi Corky. I always vote in elections but I meant that I would not vote in an Indy Ref 2. That way, I can stay true to the legitimate worries that I have but I won't be helping to deny an independent future to the young, who I absolutely know want that. I also intended my meaning to be that if Westminster continue to deny a so called 'legitimate' referendum for Scotland then naturally, Scotland would feel hugely aggrieved so that future relations would possibly not get off to a good start.

[Gronnuck]

Clearly another Scottish independence referendum could be contentious; however, Scotland should not have to seek permission from Westminster to do so. Article 1 of both the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the United Nations International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights reads:

1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.

3. The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.

In effect the people of the Scotland have the right to self-determination. In International Law no state or country has any right to tell them otherwise.

[Corky Smeek]

As predicted:-

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20673211.lord-frost-brands-scottish-independence-morally-wrong-calls-devolution-evolve-back (https://www.thenational.scot/news/20673211.lord-frost-brands-scottish-independence-morally-wrong-calls-devolution-evolve-back/)/

[Goodfellers]

As predicted:-

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20673211.lord-frost-brands-scottish-independence-morally-wrong-calls-devolution-evolve-back (https://www.thenational.scot/news/20673211.lord-frost-brands-scottish-independence-morally-wrong-calls-devolution-evolve-back/)/


You're constantly harping on about not trusting 'the msm'.....Yet here you are posting links to the very same. Or is it, we can't trust msm, unless of course it agrees with your own personal views?

[Corky Smeek]

You're constantly harping on about not trusting 'the msm'.....Yet here you are posting links to the very same. Or is it, we can't trust msm, unless of course it agrees with your own personal views?

In case you have forgotten MSM stands for Main Stream Media. The National could hardly be considered as main stream. And since every other newspaper is anti- SNP/Independence you will understand why I "harp" on about not trusting them. They fill their pages full of lies and there is next to no scrutiny because they are all basically on the same side. I know the MSM is lying to me so I "harp" on about it. You know the MSM is lying to you but the dog-whistle nature of their reporting means you are hearing and reading things you generally agree with so you don't question it.

[Goodfellers]

In case you have forgotten MSM stands for Main Stream Media. The National could hardly be considered as main stream. And since every other newspaper is anti- SNP/Independence you will understand why I "harp" on about not trusting them. They fill their pages full of lies and there is next to no scrutiny because they are all basically on the same side. I know the MSM is lying to me so I "harp" on about it. You know the MSM is lying to you but the dog-whistle nature of their reporting means you are hearing and reading things you generally agree with so you don't question it.


You're right, The National can hardly be considered 'msm' will its extremely low circulation figure.

It is hardly an impartial source of information. It is the snp's propaganda rag. It's aimed at the 'Mel Gibson brigade.

It's only fit for tearing into strips, hanging on a nail in the outhouse and, just like the snp, it'll just make a terrible mess.

[Corky Smeek]

My, my; a wee bit on the grumpy side this morning, perhaps??

First of all you claim The National is MSM and you have a go at me for quoting it. Then you say it isn't MSM and have a go at me for being in the "Mel Gibson Brigade". Make you mind up.

As usual, of course, you haven't addressed the issue. I posted about Lord Frost's remarks and all you have done is attack both me and a newspaper that printed them. I was hoping for a bit of mature discussion on the topic but I suspect that was asking too much (from you at least).