A Very Dark Future

[Corky Smeek]

Deeply worrying news this morning.

BBC News suggesting that the Covid19 pandemic will bring about the worst recession in 300 years. Meanwhile, Sky News are reporting that Brexit talks are close to breaking down, increasing the likelihood of us not getting a deal with the EU.

Hunker down. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[dozy]

Not to worry , the Tories are in charge . Nice of them to tell the taxpayers " it's your debt and your debt alone, not the rich mans debt" . Be safe ,vote Tory .

[The Horseman]

I doubt very much that whoever was in Power when this started, would have done any better!
Smaller Countries generally had less probs with travellers returning.
We will all survive. Remember Y2K!

[Oddquine]

I doubt very much that whoever was in Power when this started, would have done any better!
Smaller Countries generally had less probs with travellers returning.
We will all survive. Remember Y2K!

I doubt that whoever was in power when this thing started could have done any worse. We have made a bigger mess of it than just about every other country in the world bar the USA and Brazil..and it remains to be seen if the early lifting of lockdown restrictions increase or decrease our infection and death totals. I suspect they'll start going up again.

Smaller countries closed or restricted their airports sooner...or used PPE, testing and quarantine on arrivals and didn't just let them swan in. It is only now that we are setting up a pilot, for the love of pete, so how long will it be until it is rolled out to all airports?

We will survive only to have the coronavirus shambles blamed on the hand-picked scientists, the EU and ourselves for not obeying the "rules", and the general population (except the relatively wealthy and the filthy rich) being hammered by increased austerity to pay for the money wasted by the government, as they sat back, twiddling their thumbs and let the virus run riot without sorting out tests, PPE and ventilators.

[The Horseman]

Compare us....Canada with close to 40 Million population. We had the same prob!

1.3 million tested
77,000 confirmed infected.
5,700 Deaths.
75/80% elderly, with an underlying condition. Many in Care Homes.
Thousands flew back home...arrived and received a piece of paper Saying isolate.
And shortage of everything!
One of the reasons is that N95 Masks and Gloves had a 24 month ‘shelf life’! They were being replaced and the out of date ones were thrown out!
It is simply a Human failing! My opinion!

[Oddquine]

Compare us....Canada with close to 40 Million population. We had the same prob!

1.3 million tested
77,000 confirmed infected.
5,700 Deaths.
75/80% elderly, with an underlying condition. Many in Care Homes.
Thousands flew back home...arrived and received a piece of paper Saying isolate.
And shortage of everything!
One of the reasons is that N95 Masks and Gloves had a 24 month ‘shelf life’! They were being replaced and the out of date ones were thrown out!
It is simply a Human failing! My opinion!

Come on, you can't compare Canada's 153 deaths per million and 77,000 infected with the UK's 511 deaths per million and 243,000+ infected and say Canada had the same problem. Did Canada decide to let the virus do its worst in the provinces for a few weeks, solely in order to save the economy by building up herd immunity, before doing anything of use or ornament?

Do you really think that it makes incompetency any more acceptable, in what was once a country which advised others on how to deal with pandemics, to say that this time other countries were just as incompetent as they were?

[Corky Smeek]

Do you really think that it makes incompetency any more acceptable

My worry is that incompetence is becoming acceptable. Not only do we have the utter shambles that is the Covid19 response but we have to rely on the same arrogant morons getting us a Brexit deal. If their performance up to this point is any indicator of how they might handle what is ahead then Lord help us all. Yesterday, Gove was insisting it was all the EU's fault that negotiations were stalling. Arrogance doesn't begin to describe HMG's attitude. British exceptionalism still seems to be their guiding principle. What is it going to take for us to say enough is enough?

[Oddquine]

My worry is that incompetence is becoming acceptable. Not only do we have the utter shambles that is the Covid19 response but we have to rely on the same arrogant morons getting us a Brexit deal. If their performance up to this point is any indicator of how they might handle what is ahead then Lord help us all. Yesterday, Gove was insisting it was all the EU's fault that negotiations were stalling. Arrogance doesn't begin to describe HMG's attitude. British exceptionalism still seems to be their guiding principle. What is it going to take for us to say enough is enough?

If you mean Scotland, I suspect that the "too wee, too poor and too stupid to be independent" but "we quite like the perks we get from devolution" crowd still have the upper hand..or at least are more motivated to turn out and vote. Maybe once they start selling off bits of the NHS, and anything else they can lay their hands on, to the USA; once we are all getting cheap adulterated food imported from the USA: once our farmers and fishermen are sold out by Westminster, and once we are visited again by austerity with knobs on, while the better off manage fine, we might start to get hacked off. Stockholm Syndrome is a big problem for us and after being held captive for 300+ years it's a hard thing to counteract its brainwashing effects.

[The Horseman]

Firstly we stopped all Immigration and illegal immigration...What a thought!
And how do u know the Food from the US was bad! I have never seen that.
The UK is surviving, but Scotland at this juncture would not make it.
And to take the people’s minds of the probs., you find a couple of Russian Bear Bomber taking a Joy ride, and take pride in Lossiemouth sending up a sortie of Jets to protect the Country. Huge News, or a couple of Rusty, Ruskie ships trying to invade the Country! Then the Submarines are released and they get caught on a sand bank!! Sure does take the people’s minds of the Virus or whatever probs u have!
I am a Scot, and honestly I find that rather than this ongoing tirade against whoever is in power, take some time and contest the elections and get the people u want into Power.
Or set the right people up to make decisions.
What occurs in a Calamity, is that high profile people get parachuted into senior positions of Power, and they have no experience on how to manage same! Time for a change. It will take years, as I personally know, but you will be better prepared.
I spend years in Emergency preparedness........along with other assignments.

A note....over the years of coming back to the North, I was astounded at the amount of beautiful signs as one came the Towns and Villages.
Brora and Golspie and many more, had I think 5 signs some engraved in Color, costing a small fortune each at the entrances, on both sides.
Then double speed signs, usually 3 sets and on Berriedale, there were 7 slow down signs on each side of the road.
Years ago on here I asked why the incredible waste of money...answer....that was The Council when we had lots if miney! Oh, and nowadays you cannot afford the Gritting, or have to send pregnant Women to Inverness.
I am not saying this lightly...it is time to take back your Communities, Villages, Towns and the Country!

[orkneycadian]

Deary me.

When I got a text saying to "Get back in 'e org - The blue face painted, freedom fighting, Boris bashers are running amok", I thought that surely you could have been left to your own devices for a reasonable length of time, without the multi pronged attacks on balance - Alas no.... I have even tried taking Corky Smeek off the Ignore List to see if that has mellowed in any form - Even more Alas No.....

Oh dear, where do we start? Well, all of this was predicted earlier this year. The population of the UK knew, or should have known, that the only way to keep us free of Coronavirus was to close the borders. To this day, they are still wide open, and only now is there a suggestion that people coming into the UK might get screened or quarantined. Sorry, but this horse bolted in January / February, and as was said back in March, it will be what it will be.

Can any Government be blamed for that? I doubt it. Its the Sheeple who demand freedom of movement and open borders. Politicians like Trump try to secure their country better, but get shot down (sic) by the Sheeple who know better. Its perhaps no co-incidence that the 2 countries in the world with the most "coronavirus deaths" have the most porous borders. That's what the Sheeple wanted, and now, all of a sudden, they decide they do not like the consequences of it. Meanwhile countries with tightly regulated borders have all but brushed off the threat of coronavirus, with only a few cases / deaths.

Then we have the folk that tried to put the fear of God into the Sheeple by suggesting that Brexit, in any form, hard, soft or otherwise, would be like driving off a financial cliff, so great, the consequences do not bear thinking about. Yet now, that has been totally eclipsed by the situation we are in today, with the greatest recession in 300 years. All because the Sheeple wanted free movement. Any negative impact of Brexit (if you are the kind of person who thinks it will have a negative effect, unlike those of us who can see it will have a positive effect) will now be so negligible compared to this completely avoidable "mega-depression", that its not worth even thinking about anymore.

And as for incompetence. Well, I am afraid we don't have to look much further than Ross, Lochaber and Skye. The Portree care home probably has one of the highest concentration of positive cases and deaths in a group of people - Call it a population if you like. We have learned that there is much more than a passing bout of coronavirus at the root of that homes problems. So much so, that it has effectively been taken over by the NHS. You would think that their MP would have been on the case of this over the last years, making sure that service delivery was up to scratch. Again, alas no. Whilst all these problems at Home Farm have been building over the years, the local MP, like so many others in Scotland, have had their eye off the ball, and solely focused on independence. So its not just Govan where the constituents are suffering poor service provision due to the lack of their elected members actions - Skye unfortunately has seen it as well. :( Had Ian Blackford expended as much effort on sorting out care home provision in Skye, as he has blowing hot air in the House of Commons, then things would have been very different.

Some very classic examples of reaping what you sow.

[The Horseman]

Corky.....The future Is Bleak if u sit on your...’A’ (rear end), and do Nothing. Nicely said!

[orkneycadian]

If the Portree care home were included in the Coronavirus Worldometers table of world statistics, then the top few rows of the table, sorted in descending order of Cases per 1M population;




Country
Cases per 1M population (descending)


Home Farm Care Home, Portree - In the constituency served by Ian Blackford, MP
882,353


San Marino
19,279


Vatican City
14,981



And similarly Deaths per 1M of population;



Country
Deaths per 1M population (descending)


Home Farm Care Home, Portree - In the constituency served by Ian Blackford, MP
294,118


San Marino
1,209


Belguim
784

[Corky Smeek]

@Orkneycadian. It's only right that I acknowledge your return to the forum. I thought perhaps you had been furloughed.

The fact that you are seen as the white knight riding to the rescue of unionism (on this site at least) assures me that we are winning the argument. Your particular brand of uber-unionism, misogyny, wilfully misleading statistics and ridiculous comparisons (a privately-owned care home, run by a company based in Berkshire, having its death rate compared to nation states for example) is being seen for exactly what it is; nonsense.

[The Horseman]

My worry is that incompetence is becoming acceptable. Not only do we have the utter shambles that is the Covid19 response but we have to rely on the same arrogant morons getting us a Brexit deal. If their performance up to this point is any indicator of how they might handle what is ahead then Lord help us all. Yesterday, Gove was insisting it was all the EU's fault that negotiations were stalling. Arrogance doesn't begin to describe HMG's attitude. British exceptionalism still seems to be their guiding principle. What is it going to take for us to say enough is enough?

Seems to me you are, and have been a supporter of what has been occurring!
If one is not happy with life then they change it! You blame the Gov’t.....with no solutions....sad really.

[orkneycadian]

And how do u know the Food from the US was bad! I have never seen that.

Chlorinated chicken? Jeez, what next. Before you know it they'll put putting chlorine in our water and washing supermarket salads in a chlorine rinse, then putting them in bags with an un-natural modified gaseous atmosphere.

Whats that you say? They already do? You mean that our British / Scottish / Orkney water and lettuce need to have chlorine added to make them safe to consume? Well I never. If plain old water and lettuce needs it, then for sure, bacteria ridden chicken must be prime candidate for the chlorine treatment. They say to never wash chicken under the tap, for fear of water splashing the bacteria all over your work surfaces. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/never-wash-raw-chicken/ You never hear that with lettuce. In fact, I see that you even now get supermarket chickens ready to go right in the oven, packaging an all, to contain all those nasty bacteria inside the modified gaseous atmosphere until the heat can get them (presumably your average consumer these days can figure out how to work an oven.....)

The NHS state that most chicken sold in the UK contains campylobactor, a bacteria that can cause food poisoning, of which there are an estimated 300,000 cases in the UK per year - https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/food-poisoning-bug-in-chicken/ - That's more cases in a year than of confirmed coronavirus in the UK this year so far. And 100 people reportedly die of eating contaminated chicken in the UK every year.

Looks like chicken seriously needs to clean up its act.

[Corky Smeek]

Seems to me you are, and have been a supporter of what has been occurring!
If one is not happy with life then they change it! You blame the Gov’t.....with no solutions....sad really.

Don't you see the irony in what you are saying? 50% (at least) of the Scottish population are not happy and want change but can't get it because the other 50% (or fewer) have the Establishment and MSM continually spouting the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" mantra. And, it has to be said, they do this with some considerable success because many people in Scotland still use it as their justification for maintaining the Union. This is despite the huge mass of evidence which shows that an independent Scotland would thrive.

Oh, and "Yes" I do blame HMG but I do have a solution. It's called Independence.

[The Horseman]

But the solution is to come up with a better plan, to do what is right for the Country.
I dunno...Better Together seems so Sensible!

[orkneycadian]

But the solution is to come up with a better plan, to do what is right for the Country.
I dunno...Better Together seems so Sensible!

We have come up with the plans, which we are now in the process of implementing. Like most of the world, we use democracy for this, even though at times it produces the Sheeple effect. The people of Scotland were asked democratically what they wanted to do in 2014, and they said "Stay in the UK" by majority. The people of the UK were asked in 2016 what they wanted to do, and they too, by majority, said "Leave the EU". These democratic decisions are in the process of being implemented. The first one is easy, we just need to do nothing, and the second one is slowly getting to fruition.

We are fortunate that we live in a democratic country and union, and can make these choices.

[The Horseman]

I was in the North a few days before the 2014 decision..
I have a Pic of a man in a Canoe, with a YES sign paddling on the Inverness River. Uo and down for days!
These dramatic changes take time and lots of Agnst!

In North America, years ago, I had dealings with a large ‘Workers Union’.....500,000 members.
We were discussing problems, and the Italian President was quite interested in my Heritage, and said at the next meeting he would bring a ‘familiar voice’, which really didn't mean anything..at the time.
Weeks later we gathered at a Hotel, and with ‘flourish’ I was introduced to a man dubbed as ‘The Scottish Mafia’!
A Glaswegian Union Organizer! What a guy... you would think he had just come off the plane frae Glesgey!
A Q? Did the Scottish Unions ‘flatten the curve‘ as is said/bring more problems?

[orkneycadian]

All of the unions, Scottish or UK, are doing their damndest to 'flatten the curve' by trying to keep their members home for as long as possible, on 80% taxpayer funded pay, whilst they do nothing / do up their houses, gardens etc, even though the work their members do / did do is key.

Employers in England are now saying their employees don't want to return from furlough, even though they can and its safe for them to do so. They would rather do nothing for 80% pay than their job for 100%. And if their employer questions that, then the employee / union member just needs to trot out the "I don't feel safe" line. But the same employee, in feeling that its not safe to return to their work as, say a tube train driver, nicely isolated in the cab at the front, will happily head out to Costa for a takeaway coffee or B&Q for some DIY products. And of course the unions are insisting that all that danger, somehow becomes less if more money is available......

[Fulmar]

I think that you should take that shocking statement back. Shame on you. Actually, people working on public transport (buses and trains) have died from the virus and almost certainly they contracted it at work. Definitely so in the case of the poor lady who, with her colleague, was spat on at Victoria station in London by a man claiming to be infected. Both went down with the virus and she died having just been doing her job.

[Corky Smeek]

All of the unions, Scottish or UK, are doing their damndest to 'flatten the curve' by trying to keep their members home for as long as possible, on 80% taxpayer funded pay, whilst they do nothing / do up their houses, gardens etc, even though the work their members do / did do is key.

Employers in England are now saying their employees don't want to return from furlough, even though they can and its safe for them to do so. They would rather do nothing for 80% pay than their job for 100%. And if their employer questions that, then the employee / union member just needs to trot out the "I don't feel safe" line. But the same employee, in feeling that its not safe to return to their work as, say a tube train driver, nicely isolated in the cab at the front, will happily head out to Costa for a takeaway coffee or B&Q for some DIY products. And of course the unions are insisting that all that danger, somehow becomes less if more money is available......

What an appalling set of views you possess. I just cannot believe that someone would be so bitter as to publish something like this. Mind you, on second thoughts you are mirroring what the English government are doing and doling out blame, mostly to the medical and scientific communities, for the mess that was made of the Covid19 response.

[The Horseman]

What an appalling set of views you possess. I just cannot believe that someone would be so bitter as to publish something like this. Mind you, on second thoughts you are mirroring what the English government are doing and doling out blame, mostly to the medical and scientific communities, for the mess that was made of the Covid19 response.

So why do you/we need all the Migrant Workers? Simple Q!
Corky...... Every Country has had Probs! No one is getting an A Grade!

[Corky Smeek]

What? I'm sorry but I genuinely don't understand what you are asking and how that relates to the text you quoted. I will be happy to respond if you can provide a bit more information.

However, the last time you asked a "simple Q" and I answered it you chose not to comment on my reply so I wonder if there is any point.

[The Horseman]

What? I'm sorry but I genuinely don't understand what you are asking and how that relates to the text you quoted. I will be happy to respond if you can provide a bit more information.

However, the last time you asked a "simple Q" and I answered it you chose not to comment on my reply so I wonder if there is any point.

There is some truth in OCadians statement.
If those people worked who will do ‘nothing’, we would not need Migrant workers!
Not only the UK..many other Countries!

[The Horseman]

Corky...Democratically, the Pro Separation group lost the vote!
Accept the outcome.
Is is true the SNP is secretly stashing money away for another GO at at Breaking.....Better Together.
I like the ‘ring’ of the words!

[Corky Smeek]

Corky...Democratically, the Pro Separation group lost the vote!
Accept the outcome.
Is is true the SNP is secretly stashing money away for another GO at at Breaking.....Better Together.
I like the ‘ring’ of the words!

I have been a supporter of independence for well over 50 years. Do you seriously think I am going to give up on that just because of one vote. Do you give up on your dreams just because of one setback? No, I don't imagine you do, so why do you expect independence supporters to do it?
I have no knowledge of the SNP's financial situation. I am not a member of any political party.

[orkneycadian]

I think that you should take that shocking statement back. Shame on you.

Feel free to be as offended as you like. A recent poll on the Orcadian website - https://www.orcadian.co.uk/online-poll-should-orkney-stay-alert-or-stay-home/ returned almost 80% saying they wanted to retain the "Stay at Home" mantra. But here in Orkney, you would swear that lockdown passed us by. Traffic levels have remained laregly normal throughout, and there are far more people out walking, cycling, running, exercising dogs, painting their houses, doing gardening. Joe Public has no problem going to the hardware shops to buy materials for home projects, even though such shops are only supposed to be open for essential supplies only.

Even here in Orkney, we have folk who are delighted to be at home, being paid 80% of their wages to either do nothing, or work on their pet projects. And just like down the country, when the suggestion comes along of relaxation of the rules, its "Oh no, we couldn't possibly support that - I still haven't finished redecorating the house, er, I mean, its not safe - Anyway, I can't speak any longer, I must nip up to Highland Industrial Supplies for some more paintbrushes and lawn feed, then pop in past the chip shop to get some tea to bring home"

Its happening here in Orkney, its happening in Caithness and all across Scotland and the UK. Come July, the government will ramp down furlough payments, and employers will be expected to pick up a part of it. That will send even more firms under. You can bet that in Scotland, Nicola is not going to say "So in England, they are ramping furlough payments down to 60%, but here in Scotland we are actually going to ramp them up to 100% just to show good we are as a government". Nope, she has no cash and can only depend on what the UK gives her. Meanwhile, we will have all the folk wondering if they should just accept the 60% anyway and continue the "its not safe to return to the office because even though I am at least 5 metres away from my co-workers, I don't think its safe - But keep paying me the 60% anyway please"

The title of this thread is correct - It will be a very dark future - But an almost wholly self inflicted one. With an awful lot of folk wishing that this virus was kept out of the country at the beginning after all.

[Corky Smeek]

she has no cash and can only depend on what the UK gives her.

If that's not an argument for Scottish independence I don't know what is.

[Fulmar]

You have had 5 cases in Orkney and 2 deaths (and don't get me wrong, that's 2 too many) and no more cases recently and yet you cast slurs on people working to keep public transport moving in the major cities (and have done throughout) so that folk like my nurse daughter could get to her work (on the front line) in London. So yes, I do still say that you should retract your statement, living, as you do in the, by comparison, safe haven of Orkney.

[The Horseman]

I agree to a point with OCadian.
We in North AmerIca have the same thing.
I don’t thinks its a slur. Its a fact of life......not for all.

[orkneycadian]

You have had 5 cases in Orkney and 2 deaths (and don't get me wrong, that's 2 too many) and no more cases recently and yet you cast slurs on people working to keep public transport moving in the major cities (and have done throughout) so that folk like my nurse daughter could get to her work (on the front line) in London. So yes, I do still say that you should retract your statement, living, as you do in the, by comparison, safe haven of Orkney.

Feel free to substitute tube driver with any other unionised occupation where this is being milked for all its worth. And even outside unions, any employee who is presently on furlough (moreso in England at the moment due to Nicola's desire to be different from Boris for the sake of it) who realises that they can spin out their paid holiday a bit longer yet, just by claiming its not safe. They would get a lot more sympathy for their safety concerns if they locked themselves in. But here we have a picture of Southend on Sea beach earlier in the week;

https://i2-prod.essexlive.news/incoming/article4149874.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200b/0_Southend-Alex-Brady.jpg

Source = https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/southend-beach-visitors-were-coming-4151902

So here we have folk on a Wednesday afternoon, who are so desperately concerned for their safety whilst in proximity to others, that they simply cannot find a way to go back to work. I wonder how many of the folk in the picture above have been asked to come back in to their workplace, which their employer has made safe for them, only to reply that its not safe. Then headed off to the beach?

[Fulmar]

So, point me out the ones who are tube, train or bus drivers in that photo.

[orkneycadian]

So, point me out the ones who are tube, train or bus drivers in that photo.

Gonna be hard to pick them out with Essex Live having pixelated the only recognisable faces. But;

Are any English bus drivers furloughed? Yes - https://www.ft.com/content/851fe007-7ca3-45dc-800b-17abca01435e

Is there an undercapacity on buses in the South East, leading to difficulties for other key workers to get to their key jobs, for example, nurses? Yes - https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/13/pictures-show-trains-buses-rammed-millions-urged-return-work-12694839/

Whats the probability of there being a furloughed bus driver on Southend beach in that picture? High

[Fulmar]

Well, many are furloughed because the policy still is to keep people off public transport ergo they are running fewer buses and trains- or were, at least! People are being applauded for NOT going on buses and trains. No doubt many of the currently furloughed will sadly find themselves without a job eventually and through no fault of there own though of course, you won't ever accept that.

[orkneycadian]

And the trouble is with so many bus drivers being on furlough, is that key workers, like nurses, then have to cram onto very full buses in order to get to their place of key work.

Google is now full of opposing legal opinions from the vulture lawyers, some looking to gain clients who don't want to go back to work whilst they can still get paid 80% for doing nothing, whilst others are looking to gain clients in employers who's staff will not come back, even though its been made safe for them to do so. Of course, most of this is in England.

And I agree, there are going to be a tremendous number unemployed after this. But are they blameless? Possibly, possibly not. If they have in the past, turned up their nose at the prospect of a secure border (like Australia and New Zealand have), then they have contributed to the situation. If they went on a holiday in January / February / March then cried out to be rescued by the government, after travelling abroad knowing what was coming, definitely not. If they could have gone back to work safely in England, but thought an 80% paid holiday was a much better bet, then absolutely.

[orkneycadian]

Ah, seems that my article on the matter, under my journalistic pen name of Simon Walters, has been published - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8349223/Coronaphobia-grips-nation-Britons-fear-lockdown-eased-rapidly.html

[orkneycadian]

Definitely so in the case of the poor lady who, with her colleague, was spat on at Victoria station in London by a man claiming to be infected. Both went down with the virus and she died

Maybe not as definite as you first thought....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52853859

Coronavirus: Death of Belly Mujinga 'not linked to spit attack'

[Fulmar]

Well, she almost certainly contracted the virus while at work and that is the central point.

[orkneycadian]

She was also a lady with a fuller figure. Unfortunately, along with things like being diabetic, from an ethnic minority, etc, then this makes risks of complications or death higher. Sadly.

Only now are we starting to see some of the patterns. Yesterday on the news, they were saying that people of Bangladeshi origin are twice as likely to die than white British people. Yet people of Pakistani origin are only slightly more at risk than white British people. Not getting why such a difference between Pakistani and Bangladeshi.

But diabetics are apparently making up 20% of the deaths. Again sadly.

[Corky Smeek]

Well, there we have it!

The UK economy in freefall with GDP down 20%; 20 years for the economy to recover; the Covid19 response an utter shambles; the EU saying that all goods imported from the UK will be subject to full customs checks from January 2021; trade talks with the EU faltering and the hardest of hard Brexits on the horizon.

The UK's broad shoulders, that we heard so much about in the lead up to IndyRef1, have slumped rather alarmingly, don't you think?

Still glad you voted "No" in 2014?

Fortunately, we will have an escape route via IndyRef2 sometime soon.

[Oddquine]

Well, there we have it!

The UK economy in freefall with GDP down 20%; 20 years for the economy to recover; the Covid19 response an utter shambles; the EU saying that all goods imported from the UK will be subject to full customs checks from January 2021; trade talks with the EU faltering and the hardest of hard Brexits on the horizon.

The UK's broad shoulders, that we heard so much about in the lead up to IndyRef1, have slumped rather alarmingly, don't you think?

Still glad you voted "No" in 2014?

Fortunately, we will have an escape route via IndyRef2 sometime soon.

And you forgot to mention the very real prospect of becoming the USA's 51st State as Trump & Co dictate our trade (and probably other) laws and take over the few public services have left.

[The Horseman]

A Question......Where is the money coming from to have Ref2?

[Corky Smeek]

A Question......Where is the money coming from to have Ref2?

The same place the money comes from to fund other government policies - public funds. IndyRef 2 has been included in every SNP manifesto since 2014. The SNP said, before the last Holyrood election, that if we elected them they would hold a second independence referendum. Holding IndyRef2 is merely carrying out their manifesto promise. It is, after all, the expectation of the electorate that an elected party does what is said it would do if it were elected. That being the case public funds will be used just like they would be to fulfil other manifesto pledges. The public have "authorised" the expenditure by voting them into government.

You and the other BritNats on here would be the first to complain if the SNP did not carry out their manifesto pledges. So, stop complaining about a government actually doing what it said it would do.

[The Horseman]

Seems a ‘bit strange’.
In a time of need like most people have never seen, you want to spend large sums of money on a cause which the majority of Scots have already voted against.
Would you not take that money and enhance the lives of those who are in need. e.g. Health Care, which I hear people consistently complain about....Yes the Scots do!
And assist ‘The Scots’ in having better lives in the aftermath if Covid!
Over 2U.

[Corky Smeek]

People are allowed to change their minds especially when the decision they made was based upon lies and deception. David Cameron admitted his policy to win IndyRef1 was to do so at any cost; whatever it took. Project Fear was the manifestation of this.

On your second point; that is exactly why we need IndyRef2. With independence we can use our own resources as we see fit and channel money to where it is needed and where the Scottish people want it to be spent. At the moment Westminster still controls about 85% of the Scottish economy. We have little or no say in how that money is allocated because Westminster ignores Scotland.

If we need to spend public money now to secure a more prosperous and better future after Covid19 then so be it. Some of us are thinking long term (despite our age). You appear to be advocating short termism - no IndyRef and spend the money on the NHS. That's fine but those benefits will be short lived. We need to be looking much further ahead. We cannot continue to allow Westminster to drag us into the mire of their creation.

[Oddquine]

Seems a ‘bit strange’.
In a time of need like most people have never seen, you want to spend large sums of money on a cause which the majority of Scots have already voted against.
Would you not take that money and enhance the lives of those who are in need. e.g. Health Care, which I hear people consistently complain about....Yes the Scots do!
And assist ‘The Scots’ in having better lives in the aftermath if Covid!
Over 2U.

I know that many on here won't read Wings(out of principle, because he is pro-indy or simply because he highlights uncomfortable truths) but to quote him " We’ve noticed a fair few Unionists this week proudly claiming that an independent Scotland would have been too broke to survive the coronavirus pandemic. They might not listen to our many and comprehensive rebuttals but maybe they’d heed the words of Tony Blair, from way back in Ocrober 1987" As his closing remark says "When Unionists tell you Scotland is feeble, remember who made it that way, and never forget how it could have been".
http://https://wingsoverscotland.com/from-the-archives-13/?fbclid=IwAR2jUsqmoq57G-D1gmTB0WvXsCoydxsPTA6juO-LsSWhxh4vS1rmrSiycf8

Bear in mind...if we are too poor to cope with adversity after 300 years in the Union...why ARE we that way...when countries of the same size and smaller are managing the pandemic just fine and are not obsessing about the economic fallout. A fallout which will be less for countries within the EU, I suspect, than it will be for us, as a part of a Brexited UK under WTO rules, even with the "broad shoulders" of the USA rushing, waving its list of demands, to provide the UK with its preferred comfort blanket, provided we allow them to dictate our rules and regulations under the threat of no trade deal? If you think the EU dictates too much, even though we have a vote on anything proposed, at least there we get a vote...with the USA we will just have to suck it up, buttercup...or no trade deal!

Anyway a referendum doesn't cost as much as you seem to think. The last indyref cost around £16 million...compared to around £130 million for the EU one.

[The Horseman]

Wouldn't it be a nice gesture to donate some of the Money being ‘stashed’ away, to help the Scottish people and their Healthcare.
£16 M is a lot of money to take out of the Countries budget. Why are you keeping the peoples money! Its not yours...It belongs to the people!
I see you received £800k already last May to update the Healthcare system...was Bill Fernie responsible for that?

Make the people of Scotland think well of your endeavours for the Ref.......
Don't get would up on Brexit and the US......
Be kind!

[Corky Smeek]

£16 M is a lot of money to take out of the Countries budget. Why are you keeping the peoples money! Its not yours...It belongs to the people!

Why are you still going on about this? The SNP told people before the last Holyrood election that, if elected, they would spend public money on IndyRef2. The people then elected an SNP government. That means that the democratically elected Scottish Government is spending the "peoples (sic) money" in the way the people want. That is democracy in action. You are always berating Yessers for (in your view) not respecting the result of IndyRef1. Isn't it about time you started respecting the result of the last Holyrood election?

[The Horseman]

Sorry to offend you...
Would be nice to help those in need.
You may find that people with a myriad of troubles, are not thinking about another Ref at this time!

[Corky Smeek]

You may find that people with a myriad of troubles, are not thinking about another Ref at this time!

No, they're thinking what a pig's ar*e HMG have made of just about everything and how, unless things change dramatically, their lives are going to be much poorer in the future. Fortunately, we in Scotland have an escape route if we chose to use it.

[Oddquine]

Wouldn't it be a nice gesture to donate some of the Money being ‘stashed’ away, to help the Scottish people and their Healthcare.
£16 M is a lot of money to take out of the Countries budget. Why are you keeping the peoples money! Its not yours...It belongs to the people!
I see you received £800k already last May to update the Healthcare system...was Bill Fernie responsible for that?

Make the people of Scotland think well of your endeavours for the Ref.......
Don't get would up on Brexit and the US......
Be kind!

There is no money "being stashed away" Where on earth are you getting that from? If Scotland received £800K it was via Barnett, because Westminster has allocated extra spending from the joint money paid into the Treasury by all four nations, on departments in England, like health and education,which are devolved to Scotland....simply some more of our own taxes being handed back to us as if it was a gift. Do you actually know how the finances of the devolved Governments work?

Funny that you don't demand that Westminster, which has a demonstrably worse healthcare set-up than Scotland, if the reaction to the pandemic is anything to go by, does the same...finds the money out of the combined resources of all four countries in the Union, to help the UK population and their health care, by increasing their spending on health services for England, and thus Barnett consequentials for the other three countries in the Union. In the current circumstances, that would have been more useful after the failure of the pandemic response trial of 2016 than spending billions in funding an incompetent "Exiting the EU" department, which has wasted millions on the likes of contracting with ferry companies with no ferries. Westminster could maybe even have thought twice about contracting for ventilators from companies in the UK which could actually produce them, instead of wasting millions in handing Dyson a contract to design and produce useless ones in India or wherever their factories are based now.

I find it somewhat ironic that so many people who used to live in the UK, but don't anymore,appear to wear the same union-jack coloured specs as so many still here. I wonder if it is because they remember only the better years, before Thatcher...and are a bit nostalgic for the UK of the past...the one they still think exists, is of importance to the world and is punching above its weight.

I ask yet again, and still await a response...why do you think the Union is such a great idea and that Scotland, alone of all the small countries in the world, is incapable of fending for itself. What benefits does being in the UK bring to Scotland that it couldn't do just as well, if not better on its own?

[The Horseman]

I really don’t know the entire History if the last Ref and who played fair!
For now the Winner was the NO side, so my thought would be to assist in this long ‘turn around’ and ‘help your neighbor’, whomever that may be.
Work away quietly at your Divisive Strategies, but be part of helping The World.

[Corky Smeek]

I really don’t know the entire History if the last Ref and who played fair!
For now the Winner was the NO side, so my thought would be to assist in this long ‘turn around’ and ‘help your neighbor’, whomever that may be.
Work away quietly at your Divisive Strategies, but be part of helping The World.

Helping your neighbour and working for independence are not mutually exclusive.

[Oddquine]

Helping your neighbour and working for independence are not mutually exclusive.

While helping your neighbour who is working for eventual independence is not an acceptable option, going by the way Westminster has been behaving since 2014.

[Alrock]

I really don’t know the entire History if the last Ref and who played fair!
For now the Winner was the NO side, so my thought would be to assist in this long ‘turn around’ and ‘help your neighbor’, whomever that may be.
Work away quietly at your Divisive Strategies, but be part of helping The World.

If anybody was playing unfair it would be the "NO side"
They made a big song & dance (especially when they thought that they where going to lose) about how a NO vote was the only way to guarentee continued membership of the EU. So much for that...:roll:

[The Horseman]

It is what it is!
Sour Grapes................

[Oddquine]

It is what it is!
Sour Grapes................

Not sour grapes,anger because it is what it is. There is justifiable anger at the subsequent removal of the status quo so many thought they were voting for... and at the refusal to implement the VOW, which others voted for....and because not one single promise made has been kept. With Brexit and EVEL the status quo we had has gone completely and if we are to be heaing into uncharted waters...it seems a lot more sensible to do it rowing our own boat, as opposed to manning the oars of a galley under the whip of a captain and crew treating us like possessions and not equals.

[The Horseman]

Perhaps you are correct.
Politics is known to promise ‘The World‘, and fail at every one.

[Corky Smeek]

I think the sour grapes is actually on the "No" side. They bitterly resent that having "won" IndyRef1 they've been unable to put the matter to bed. The fact that there is clear evidence that support for Independence is growing is a severe aggravation. Yet, the fault lies completely at their own door. The Unionist parties, who as Oddquine so eloquently put it above, have failed to deliver on any promise made prior to IndyRef1. Win at any cost was the mantra and that included making any promises necessary to secure a No vote, safe in the knowledge that none would ever have to be delivered.
In short, the Scottish public were deceived, lied to, hoodwinked and bribed in order to maintain the status quo. Any Union which has to rely on such tactics is, of course, inherently flawed and weak as a consequence. The Scottish public are increasingly aware of this. Having seen the disrespect and contempt with which Westminster views Scotland and our Parliament they are not prepared to put up with it.

♫ A Change is Gonna Come (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPr3yvkHYsE) ♫

[Fulmar]

Change generally does come eventually, I think. As long as any vote or decision is democratic and clear then I don't have a problem with it. I think an Indy ref 2 is inevitable and it remains to be seen how and when it will take place but I do believe that it is for the Scottish people to decide when it will be.

[Oddquine]

Perhaps you are correct.
Politics is known to promise ‘The World‘, and fail at every one.

Not politics...politicians....trying to ensure they hold onto their cushy number for another term...and another...and another. Politics would be OK if politicians (the professional variety) didn't exist.

[The Horseman]

I hear that things aren't too good with Covid Support!
Perhaps put Referendum on hold and support The People, rather than fight for Indy!
Common sense thought eh!

[The Horseman]

Ohhhhhhh...and Turn Off CNN. Ratcheting up the Negativity on Prez Trump as the American Election is near!
He isn't perfect, but he is the best they have!

[Alrock]

Ohhhhhhh...and Turn Off CNN. Ratcheting up the Negativity on Prez Trump as the American Election is near!
He isn't perfect, but he is the best they have!


Good idea, why not sit down & read a good book instead.
How about "The Room Where It Happened: A White House Memoir (https://www.amazon.com/Room-Where-Happened-White-Memoir/dp/1982148039)"

[Corky Smeek]

I hear that things aren't too good with Covid Support!
Perhaps put Referendum on hold and support The People, rather than fight for Indy!
Common sense thought eh!

You're correct, the English government are making a right dog's breakfast of it. The latest blunder over the "Track & Trace" app is merely another in a great long list of them. If they would just curtail their superiority complex a tad and not think that they can do everything better than everyone else then they might not have made so many mistakes. This fixation with not doing anything in concert with the EU (purely for reasons of political dogma) or adopting any methods or protocols devised by Mr Jonathan Foreigner has cost lives; thousands of them.

Holding a referendum and getting Scotland out of this dysfunctional Union is the best way of supporting the Scottish people. Common sense thought eh?

[Oddquine]

Ohhhhhhh...and Turn Off CNN. Ratcheting up the Negativity on Prez Trump as the American Election is near!
He isn't perfect, but he is the best they have!

If Trump is the best they have......then God Help America.......and the rest of the world!

[The Horseman]

To People in ‘Glass Houses....Don't throw Stones‘!
And......just visited The BBC......Headline taken verbatim from CNN!
And how about spending the Referendum money on the Scots people?

[Corky Smeek]

And how about spending the Referendum money on the Scots people?

That's exactly what IndyRef2 would be doing - spending money on the Scottish people to get them out of this iniquitous Union and thus safeguard their future.

Sounds like a good deal to me!

[Oddquine]

That's exactly what IndyRef2 would be doing - spending money on the Scottish people to get them out of this iniquitous Union and thus safeguard their future.

Sounds like a good deal to me!

Certainly a better deal than the UK got, or will get, with £900,000 to paint Boris's personal plane in red white and blue to brand it, when it only costs £80,000 to respray a 777...or the 7 times the cost of a referendum being piddled against a wall on a duff track and trace system!

[The Horseman]

The two of U!........
Methinks you would get a great deal more support for your endeavours, if you put the health of the Scots ahead Of A Ref., and ’personal agendas’!
In times of great need, pool your resources!

[Corky Smeek]

In times of great need, pool your resources!

Well the irony of that cheered me up no end. That has been the guiding principle of the UK since 1707 - with one minor alteration:-

"In times of great need, pull your resources!"

That has always been the way of things in the UK. Wealth, knowledge, skill all get funnelled down the pipe that leads to greater wealth for the SE of England.

The government in Westminster doesn't give a toss about any aspect of the Scottish people's lives so I am not going to be scolded by you for having a personal agenda.

[The Horseman]

Corky...
Is the word PULL in Your context saying the Opposite of my POOL!
Scolding it is not...Suggesting it is!

And I just read the BBC news.......Fifteen news stories mostly Anti Trump, In their headlines this morning.
Nothing negative in the UK.
Theory... make the US and all Countries look bad, except Britain!

What I am saying, is spend the referendum Money on The Poor People who are suffering thru the Worst Crises since the 30’s and 40’s.
Then go to the Polls with your Ref.......and why Do u call it Indy ref?

[Corky Smeek]

Corky...
Is the word PULL in Your context saying the Opposite of my POOL!
Scolding it is not...Suggesting it is!

And I just read the BBC news.......Fifteen news stories mostly Anti Trump, In their headlines this morning.
Nothing negative in the UK.
Theory... make the US and all Countries look bad, except Britain!

What I am saying, is spend the referendum Money on The Poor People who are suffering thru the Worst Crises since the 30’s and 40’s.
Then go to the Polls with your Ref.......and why Do u call it Indy ref?

Unionists say "Pooling and Sharing". The reality is Pulling and Sharing

Nice to see that reality is dawning and you agree that the BBC is biased. OK, you are talking anti-Trump bias but ask any "Yes" supporter and they will be able to give you endless examples of anti-independence reporting by the BBC. Prof. John Robertson, late of UWS, published extensively on the matter. His work is easily found online if you wish to explore it further but you might find this (http://scotsindependent.scot/?p=1251) interesting.


Both Oddquine and I have attempted, on several occasions, to explain to you why the Scottish government is able to allocate public money to fund IndyRef2. If you are worried about "The Poor People", as you call them, I imagine you are delighted by the fact that the Scottish Government has spent millions upon millions of pounds mitigating the effects of Tory austerity over the last decade - see here (https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-actions-are-the-snp-taking-in-government-to-mitigate-westminster-s-welfare-reforms/). Any suggestion that the Scottish Government has not done its best to help vulnerable people through this period is, frankly, laughable.


I'm not sure what your issue is with calling it IndyRef. Perhaps you could explain further.

[The Horseman]

Quickly. ‘Indy’ reflects The Indianapolis 500. That is a car race/World famous/ to which I have been several times!

I have no ‘Delight’ in what any Gov’t is doing, but taking money out of the Poor People’s pockets. Or if u prefer.....Their POCKADS....
I am attempting to show u that the Millions being saved for IndyRef2/3/4., would be better spent getting the Virus samples to be tested.. Its not happening in time, and many more Faux paws being set upon Scotland!
The SNP has the money/ save the people first!
Just my opinion of course! Objectivity is more clearly seen from the outside! Some famous person said that......Oh, that was moi!

[Corky Smeek]

Quickly. ‘Indy’ reflects The Indianapolis 500. That is a car race/World famous/ to which I have been several times!

I have no ‘Delight’ in what any Gov’t is doing, but taking money out of the Poor People’s pockets. Or if u prefer.....Their POCKADS....
I am attempting to show u that the Millions being saved for IndyRef2/3/4., would be better spent getting the Virus samples to be tested.. Its not happening in time, and many more Faux paws being set upon Scotland!
The SNP has the money/ save the people first!
Just my opinion of course! Objectivity is more clearly seen from the outside! Some famous person said that......Oh, that was moi!

Sorry, but I'm not even going to bother with the comment on the use of "Indy". It's just silly.

You don't seem to be getting it, so for the last time; this is not money that has been saved by anyone. It is money, allocated for a purpose, for which the public have given their consent. Nor is it SNP money. The SNP are a political party, who for the time being, hold a majority in the Scottish parliament and therefore form the Scottish Government. Any funds required for IndyRef2 would not come from SNP funds but from public funds as has previously been explained numerous times.

Objectivity may be "more clearly seen from the outside" but only if the beholder is aware of all the facts.

[The Horseman]

IndyRef? So if it’s silly, why are you and the Scots using it!
PUBLIC FUNDS it is then.......Use it to help the PUBLIC! These are the people who are suffering!
In times of great need, people stick together/help each other with THE PUBLIC MONEY. Don’t u understand.
I don't think you can even convince yursell!

Can anyone on here advise why you are using a ‘silly name’? Too funny!

[Gronnuck]

Who is this Horseman? He/she seems to be way off on another planet. He/she doesn't appear to have any experience of living the same lives as the majority of the people of Scotland. 'Indy500' - what has that got to do with anything?

[The Horseman]

Likely a kinder more understanding Scot!........Ate the ‘Pease Brose’!
Please explain what the ‘Indy’ in IndyRef Means!

[Oddquine]

Likely a kinder more understanding Scot!........Ate the ‘Pease Brose’!
Please explain what the ‘Indy’ in IndyRef Means!

It is a shorthand method of saying Independence Referendum. How thick are you that you couln't work that out for yourself?

[Fulmar]

And this from the woman who maintains she doesn't insult people.

[The Horseman]

It is a shorthand method of saying Independence Referendum. How thick are you that you couln't work that out for yourself?

Thank you......
I still think you should be putting the Referendum on the ‘back burner’, and assisting the World Fight Covid.
Already there is a resurgence around the World. All People/Countries should be ‘centred’ around the eradication of said Pandemic.

I did see an interesting comment on another page.....A Neverendum! How apropos!

[Oddquine]

And this from the woman who maintains she doesn't insult people.



Where have I said that? Genuine question....I can't believe I ever said anything to imply I never insult anybody.

[Corky Smeek]

I still think you should be putting the Referendum on the ‘back burner’, and assisting the World Fight Covid.

There seems to be something about Scotland's situation that you are not getting. Scotland would love to be assisting in the "World Fight Covid", as you call it, but it can't because it's not an independent country. Scotland would love to be playing its part on the world stage and helping to eradicate disease, poverty, inequality, and any other ill you can think of but it can't because it's not an independent country. Scotland would love to be a member of the United Nations and have the saltire flying proudly alongside the flags of every other nation state but it can't because it's not an independent country. Scotland would love to re-join the EU and play its part with all the other nations of Europe but it can't because it's not an independent country.

In short, Scotland would like to do a lot of things both domestically and internationally but it can't because, guess what, it's not an independent country.

So, if we have IndyRef2 and vote "Yes" then Scotland will be able to assist the "World Fight Covid" and everything else mentioned above. But, until then we are stuck in this bl**dy awful Union forced to watch, powerless, from the sidelines as HMG makes a bigger and bigger horlicks of just about everything they do. Independence will allow us to do the things you seem to want us to do.

Just as an aside, the latest Panelbase polling released over the weekend shows support for Independence to be on 54%. Other people are recognising the reality of the situation. Perhaps you should too!

[The Horseman]

But u had a vote and the answer was No! Democratically!!
I am not 100% up to date with the Politics, but use the Independence money to assist the Scottish people.....lets get this over with and then try again if u wish!
No I don’t get It. Likely never will.
The No vote took the floor and that is it....for the moment, and the ‘moment’ is killing people.

[Corky Smeek]

But u had a vote and the answer was No! Democratically!!
I am not 100% up to date with the Politics, but use the Independence money to assist the Scottish people.....lets get this over with and then try again if u wish!
No I don’t get It. Likely never will.
The No vote took the floor and that is it....for the moment, and the ‘moment’ is killing people.

So people can't change their minds then? The UK voted in a Tory government in 2019. Is that it until the end of time? No, of course not because democracy needs to be reinforced by periodic elections usually at fixed intervals - 5 years in the UK. It gives people the opportunity to change their minds. It is now nearly 6 years since IndyRef 1. Denying the people of Scotland a referendum is the antithesis of democracy. You cannot defend democracy and then deny it for the people of Scotland at the same time. Some might say that was hypocritical and they would be correct.

[orkneycadian]

But u had a vote and the answer was No! Democratically!!
I am not 100% up to date with the Politics, but use the Independence money to assist the Scottish people.....lets get this over with and then try again if u wish!
No I don’t get It. Likely never will.
The No vote took the floor and that is it....for the moment, and the ‘moment’ is killing people.

Indeed. We were made several promises at the time of the last stage of the Neverendum. That was that this was a "once in a lifetime event" and a "once in a generation event". A lifetime is typically 70 years on average, more I guess if you look at average life expectancy. A generation is, by law, a minimum of 16 years and 9 months. All of that seems lost on the folk that actually made those statements, on record, who now subscribe to the Jimmy Saville definition of a generation.

[Corky Smeek]

The BritNat-in-chief appears to think democracy only exists for the "winners". We won so you lost and you can't have another IndyRef for 70 years. Jeez!!

[The Horseman]

Perhaps think to solve the First problem....First!
The Virus and the Second coming!

[Gronnuck]

Indeed. We were made several promises at the time of the last stage of the Neverendum. That was that this was a "once in a lifetime event" and a "once in a generation event". A lifetime is typically 70 years on average, more I guess if you look at average life expectancy. A generation is, by law, a minimum of 16 years and 9 months. All of that seems lost on the folk that actually made those statements, on record, who now subscribe to the Jimmy Saville definition of a generation.

The last Independence referendum was on September 2014. The people of Scotland were promised much if they voted ‘No’. Remember the red tories and Gordon Brown’s ‘Vow’? Those promises never materialised. We were told if Scotland wanted to remain in the European Union it had to vote ‘No’ because it could only do so as part of the UK.
Of course Orkneycadian you will choose to forget these broken promises.
I voted ‘No’.
I have seen what has happened to Scotland since and have changed my mind. I have yet to come across anyone who can tell me anything positive about the advantages of being ruled by the greater English mission in Westminster.
No doubt Orkneycadian will offer a long list of things that Westminster had done for the benefit of the people of Scotland.
As for the ‘once in a generation’ myth. It was a rhetorical flourish to make a point in a conversation and was never a promise and has no standing in law – a bit like Boris Johnson wishing he’d rather lie dead in a ditch.
Orkneycadian your reference to Jimmy Savile and the implication implied is disgusting. You really have shown how low you can stoop.

[The Horseman]

What surprises me, is that no one considers Community Lives as much as the Yes vote!
Is there some type of ‘disconnect’ here.
Covid 19 is already making a ‘come back’ and we still go on about Ref 2.........
And remember, All Govt’s take Liberties with the truth.
’Corky states......Unable to do anything as Scotland is not an ‘Independent‘ Country.....I would say NO....you ‘won’t‘ do anything until it is ‘Independent‘......which likely it never will....but that is in the future....Not in this Moment!
This ‘Moment’ is to all join together for a ‘Higher Cause‘. Self Centred comes to mind here!

[orkneycadian]

Self Centred comes to mind here!

Horseman, you have an uncanny knack of hitting the nail on the head.

To understand why, in relation to the above quote from you, we need to go back to a statement made by the seperatists in the run up to the EU Referendum. The Scottish separatists absolutely insisted that it was not permissible for a part of the UK to be dragged out of the EU against its will. They said that every part of the UK would have to vote to leave for the UK result to be valid.

So they have set the bar.

Now, for a Scotland wide SCEXIT vote to be valid, then every part of Scotland must vote Yes. That includes Orkney and Shetland. With a 67% No vote at the last referendum, there's an awful long way for them to go yet. And I am not aware of anyone in Orkney who has changed from No to Yes.

[Alrock]

Now, for a Scotland wide SCEXIT vote to be valid, then every part of Scotland must vote Yes. That includes Orkney and Shetland. With a 67% No vote at the last referendum, there's an awful long way for them to go yet. And I am not aware of anyone in Orkney who has changed from No to Yes.

You could always have your own referendum to rejoin Norway.

[orkneycadian]

Indeed, that's a possibility. Though after Orkney and Shetland voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the UK in 2014, then there is more likliehood that should we be dragged out of the UK against our will, that the appetite would be to leave Scotland and rejoin the UK.

[Corky Smeek]

As well as all the other groups and individuals on his hit list Orkneycadian really seems to hate Scotland. It would nice, just for once, for him to say something positive about his country, wouldn't it?

[The Horseman]

I see Orkney’s point.
He, I and many many others, are looking at the pic from a different angle.
New Zealand is of a comparable size, but they are unique. In addition, they get their Army to keep the Self Isolators at home!
Can u imagine that in the UK!
********This is not a time for Division. Brexit, Covid and the Physical and Economical Health of the UK is at risk, and all a few of you can talk about is IndyRef!
Analyze what I have just said.........think about it. Imagine this as a War! Where would we be without Allies!
It’s really a ‘better together time’. Make love not war! Legalize DOPE like we did in Canada. Be happy U have food on the table!
Just my thoughts.

[Corky Smeek]

I see Orkney’s point.
He, I and many many others, are looking at the pic from a different angle.
New Zealand is of a comparable size, but they are unique. In addition, they get their Army to keep the Self Isolators at home!
Can u imagine that in the UK!
********This is not a time for Division. Brexit, Covid and the Physical and Economical Health of the UK is at risk, and all a few of you can talk about is IndyRef!
Analyze what I have just said.........think about it. Imagine this as a War! Where would we be without Allies!
It’s really a ‘better together time’. Make love not war! Legalize DOPE like we did in Canada. Be happy U have food on the table!
Just my thoughts.

What utter twaddle. You and all the other Unionists have been deploying these types of argument since IndyRef1 was announced. You use any issue, however large or small, to say Scotland couldn't cope on its own and is better off in the Union. I mean, Phillip Hammond (https://wingsoverscotland.com/keep-watching-the-skies/) (former Sec of State for Defence) even questioned Scotland's ability to fend off alien invaders if we became independent. Pardon me if I don't take these ridiculous assertions too seriously. If the Union is so good how come, after 313 years, of the Union a majority of Scots (54%) want to leave it? Doesn't seem to be working too well does it? If it was a proper Union and Scotland wasn't treated like a colony to be pillaged when required then perhaps fewer people (not me, though) would be content to stay in the UK.

Your comparison between the UK and NZ doesn't stand up to scrutiny. HMG have employed the army to carry out normally civilian duties on many occasions - mostly to break trades union strikes. They were also on stand-by to ensure public compliance with rules during the current Covid19 crisis.

You say this is not the time for division. I imagine then you must be in favour of abandoning Brexit. If we are weaker divided then surely we should remain in the EU. I tell you what, let's have an independent Scotland in the EU. That would mean Scotland having a seat at the table of the largest economic trading group in the world. Seems like a much better deal than being shackled to the lame dog that is the UK.

[The Horseman]

54%......What a a huge Majority.
Follow your Dreams at a later time. Time for working together......but U and your like won’t! ‘Tis sad really!

[Oddquine]

54%......What a a huge Majority.
Follow your Dreams at a later time. Time for working together......but U and your like won’t! ‘Tis sad really!

Same majority that took the UK out of the EU, though...and the EU referendum wasn't even a binding one with a Section 30 order. I don't see why we should work together with Westminster when the Government in Westminster has completely lost its collective mind.

[The Horseman]

My opinion.....work with The Devil if it helps this problem........

[Corky Smeek]

54%......What a a huge Majority.
Follow your Dreams at a later time. Time for working together......but U and your like won’t! ‘Tis sad really!

Translation: 54% (for your side) is a tiny majority. So tiny in fact that it can safely be disregarded as meaningless. 55% (for my side) is a huge majority. It is so overwhelming, in fact, that there shouldn't be another IndyRef for a million years.
Disregard your lifelong dreams. Ditch everything you have ever believed in and worked for so that I don't have to confront the uncomfortable truth that Scotland would be better served by being independent.

[Oddquine]

My opinion.....work with The Devil if it helps this problem........

My opinion.....the only problems we in Scotland have with how to best deal with this pandemic, and its consequences to the Scottish economy going forward, is being shackled to an England which ignores us, not having access to all our own income to use for our own purposes and, unlike Wetminster, not having a magic money tree which allows us to borrow as much as we want, when we want. If we are to work with the Devil...why should it be the Devil elected up by another country.interested only in the health of the economy of London and the south, to the detriment of the health of the population....and not the Devil we elect for ourselves and can remove by the tick of a box on a ballot paper?

[Fulmar]

However, we do all vote in the General Election don't we.

[Corky Smeek]

However, we do all vote in the General Election don't we.

Not sure I'm interpreting your point correctly but here goes anyway.

Scotland invariably gets the government England votes for. It's a simple as that. So although we all have a vote, if you happen to vote in a Scottish constituency then your vote is virtually worthless. It does nothing to affect the outcome of a UK GE. Only voters in England have any impact on the result.

Have I misinterpreted your point? If so then I apologise.

[Oddquine]

Not sure I'm interpreting your point correctly but here goes anyway.

Scotland invariably gets the government England votes for. It's a simple as that. So although we all have a vote, if you happen to vote in a Scottish constituency then your vote is virtually worthless. It does nothing to affect the outcome of a UK GE. Only voters in England have any impact on the result.

Have I misinterpreted your point? If so then I apologise.

To be fair...if England is failrly evenly split between Buggins 1 and Buggins 2, we (and Wales) can make a difference...if you count popular vote as the determinant of who people want to see in charge and not the number of seats gained in an election, we have managed to elect the UK Government for a short time on three occasions in the 21 elections since 1945.

In 1951, the English popular vote for Labour and Tory was equal at 48.8%, so the seats from Scotland and Wales gave the UK a Tory Government with a 17 seat majority. Similarly in 1964, the English popular vote was marginally for the Tories by 0.8%..but with the Welsh and Scottish Labour seats, the UK got a Labour Government with a seat majority of 4. And the same thing again in 1974, Tories won the popular vote by 0.7% of votes cast, but Scottish (and Welsh) seats enabled the formation of a Labour minority Government.

Other than that, all we can do is increase the number of seats held. As far as I can see, the UK has had the Government England voted for in 18 out of 21 elections and Scotland got the government it voted for in 11 of them (the Labour Governments and the two Tory Governments in 1951 and 1955) up until 2010 when we stopped voting for either Buggins 1 or 2, so obviously none since then.

[The Horseman]

What you, the Indy Reformists can do, is support the ‘common goal’ at the present time, until we get thru this mess and come out ‘the other side alive’ , then throw yourselves at the next Ref. 2/3/4. Who knows.
Be part of the solution, not the Problem.
I am sure u believe in your ideas, but now ‘ain’t’ the time!

[Corky Smeek]

@ Oddquine. I take your point but with a reduced number of MPs in Scotland it is very unlikely to happen again. Buggins 1 & 2 have both peed on their chips so far as winning the popular vote in Scotland is concerned. At the present time and with a majority of 80, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference if every single voter in Scotland voted Labour: the Tories would still have won. Labour disagree and still say winning in Scotland is the only way to oust the Tories from Westminster even though it is clearly not the case. Maybe simple arithmetic is beyond them or, more likely, they are just liars.

Add into the mix the impact of English Votes for English Laws (EVEL). This further reduces the potential influence Scotland has at Westminster as no UK party could ever again have an MP from a Scottish constituency as its leader. Constitutionally you cannot have a situation where a PM proposes legislation that s/he is barred from voting on because their constituency is in Scotland.

@ The Horseman. We are the solution. You and your like are the problem. There is no time like the present.

[Oddquine]

What you, the Indy Reformists can do, is support the ‘common goal’ at the present time, until we get thru this mess and come out ‘the other side alive’ , then throw yourselves at the next Ref. 2/3/4. Who knows.
Be part of the solution, not the Problem.
I am sure u believe in your ideas, but now ‘ain’t’ the time!

We are supporting the common goal...we're not out marching, delivering leaflets or knocking on random doors to persuade No-voters and some of us have been stuck indoors posting on places like this since 23rd March. We do not support Westminster's goal of getting the economy back on track regardless of how many people die of coronavirus as a result...and why should we? Nobody, to my knowledge has ever said, since coronavirus reared its head, "now is the time"...but the time will come, and we need to be ready to go once the coronavirus problem has lessened ...around which time the effects of Brexit will be kicking in..so we are preparing. Why do you have a problem with that? Can't you just stop reading our posts if they irritate you so much that you repeat your mantra of "Do what Westminster tells you...the Union is great" in different ways all the time.

[Oddquine]

@ Oddquine. I take your point but with a reduced number of MPs in Scotland it is very unlikely to happen again. Buggins 1 & 2 have both peed on their chips so far as winning the popular vote in Scotland is concerned. At the present time and with a majority of 80, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference if every single voter in Scotland voted Labour: the Tories would still have won. Labour disagree and still say winning in Scotland is the only way to oust the Tories from Westminster even though it is clearly not the case. Maybe simple arithmetic is beyond them or, more likely, they are just liars.

Add into the mix the impact of English Votes for English Laws (EVEL). This further reduces the potential influence Scotland has at Westminster as no UK party could ever again have an MP from a Scottish constituency as its leader. Constitutionally you cannot have a situation where a PM proposes legislation that s/he is barred from voting on because their constituency is in Scotland.

@ The Horseman. We are the solution. You and your like are the problem. There is no time like the present.

I know...with my post I was just pre-empting the unionists bleating about the number of times Scotland has decided the UK Government. The three times I noted are the only times Scotland has put in a UK Government England didn't vote for...because English voters needed, on those occasions, to have someone else make up their minds for them.

[The Horseman]

From Oddquine****************** We do not support Westminster's goal of getting the economy back on track regardless of how many people die of coronavirus as a result...and why should we? Nobody, to my knowledge has ever said, since coronavirus reared its head, "now is the time"...but the time will come**********

What a statement...quite frightening I wud say!

[Oddquine]

From Oddquine****************** We do not support Westminster's goal of getting the economy back on track regardless of how many people die of coronavirus as a result...and why should we? Nobody, to my knowledge has ever said, since coronavirus reared its head, "now is the time"...but the time will come**********

What a statement...quite frightening I wud say!

What I find quite frightening is you thinking that us not supporting Westminster's goal of of getting the economy back on track regardless of how many people die of coronavirus as a result is quite frightening. Why do you think that?

I don't really understand why you find Nobody, to my knowledge has ever said, since coronavirus reared its head, "now is the time"...but the time will come quite frightening. Care to explain?

[The Horseman]

I shall leave that to others who may wish to reply.
My thot.....Naaaa... Too stoooopid!

[orkneycadian]

Quoting Oddquine......We do not support Westminster's goal of getting the economy back on track regardless of how many people die of coronavirus as a result.

How many folk in the UK have actually died of Coronavirus, as opposed to the commonly cited "with Coronavirus"?

I suspect more folk have died with grey or white hair since January than have died with Coronavirus. Dangerous stuff that grey / white hair.....

[The Horseman]

It’s just the extreme ‘sentiment’ that gets me.
I would never have expected it from a True Scot.

[Corky Smeek]

It’s just the extreme ‘sentiment’ that gets me.
I would never have expected it from a True Scot.

So, what's your definition of a "True Scot"?

[Oddquine]

It’s just the extreme ‘sentiment’ that gets me.
I would never have expected it from a True Scot.

And what is your definition of extreme "sentiment"?

[The Horseman]

I give up.....One Track Minds! Bye....

[orkneycadian]

Again, Horseman, you hit the nail on the head. The divisionists are more commonly referred to as One Trick Ponies, but I guess even a One Trick Pony must have a one track mind.

[orkneycadian]

Scotland's future is getting very dark indeed thanks to the megalomaniac who thinks she is at the helm in Holyrood;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8481103/Emergency-talks-underway-rescue-No10s-air-bridge-holiday-plan.html

She seems absolutely determined to wreck the country and its economy, then will no doubt stand in the rubble and say it was Westminster's fault and that this wouldn't have happened if Scotland was independent.

Meanwhile, the so called Conoravirus curve is as flat as a billiard table, and places like Orkney, Shetland and Caithness are being dragged down, yet again, by Southern Belt policies. There not even as much as a runny nose here in Orkney, but we are being dictated to by the Southern Divisionists as if we had rampant bubonic plague striking everyone down. All thats happening here in Orkney is a systematic destruction of jobs and the economy by a power crazed woman in Edinburgh.

[Corky Smeek]

@ Orkneycadian. And we are supposed to believe this total bollo*ks because you read it in the Daily Mail?

[The Horseman]

I believe the Rep from Orkney!

[The Horseman]

Corky, If you could only have a clear Vision of reality, you would also see It!
I do!

[Corky Smeek]

I believe the Rep from Orkney!

Why doesn't that surprise me?

[orkneycadian]

And now she has completely lost the plot......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53252760

Coronavirus: Face coverings to become mandatory in Scottish shops
With yet again, Orkney, Shetland and Caithness getting dragged down by policies that the megalomaniac deems required in Edinburgh and Glasgow. She is now becoming a serious risk to Scotland.

To recap, she thinks its necessary for the single customer, in a shop on an island with a population of 40 to wear a mask. But yet, she still thinks that to-ing and froing actions of Iain Stewart are acceptable, even after he has been booted from the job.

We need a border - Somewhere about Dunkeld I think. And an air / ferry bridge to the rest of the UK.

[Alrock]

And now she has completely lost the plot......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53252760

Coronavirus: Face coverings to become mandatory in Scottish shops....

About time too... Very few people wearing masks up here. Might be very few cases but it would only take 1 or 2 superspreaders to see it rip through the place due to the amount of complacency up here. Just remember, by the time you know it's here, it's already too late.

[Corky Smeek]

@ Orkneycadian. Post not quoted out of respect for those who do not wish to be exposed to your particular brand of bile.

What a complete and utter hypocrite you are. According to you, we are all one island and should have "centralised" government from Westminster. There should be no difference between Scotland and England and devolution should be abolished. Yet now you are calling for a border near Dunkeld. Who is going to establish this border if there is no devolution? Certainly not Boris who was appalled at the suggestion when it was raised at PMQs yesterday. Maybe the Duke of Atholl could mobilise the Atholl Highlanders and barricade the A9.

You appear to think Nicola Sturgeon is "..a serious risk to Scotland." for the mere suggestion of curtailing movement north across the Border yet this appears to be the policy you are now advocating.

If you are going to try to wind us Separatists up at least have the decency to assemble a coherent argument rather than that pile of jumbled thinking that you passed off as a post at 17h38.

[Fulmar]

I think that what we all should be committed to, irrespective of political inclination, is supporting those measures that allow some easing but attempt to keep us as safe as possible. It is so easy to criticise from the sidelines but none of this is easy and no one has definitive answers on what is right and what is wrong which makes it even harder to do. Polls show overwhelmingly that people in Scotland think that the government here- and Nicola Sturgeon - has handled the epidemic better than in England and generally with clearer messaging and that people support it. I watched interviews done by BBC news the other night of members of the Scottish public and all supported the mandatory wearing of face masks in shops. Now is the right time to do it with easing of travel restrictions and more people coming from everywhere. If everyone is wearing them in shops then all are that bit safer and if it saves even one person contracting the virus who otherwise would not have done then it is well worth it. I don't like wearing one and feel a bit strange in it but I'm doing it and if anybody has any tips on how to prevent your glasses from steaming up then please do tell!

[orkneycadian]

Remember, Fulmar, at the beginning of this, we were told that facemasks were pointless, and that they should be saved for where they are of some use, viz, in a surgical / medical setting for medical staff to use. We have been through the peak of the cases, all going shopping without facemasks, and I have yet to hear of 1 case in Orkney picked up through maskless shopping.

At the beginning of this, we were also told that "close contact" constituted being within 2 metres of someone for 15 minutes or more. We were told by all the scientific advisers at the time that being within 2 metres for less than 15 minutes posed little or no risk as the virus would not be able to transfer in sufficient quantities in that time. Now, passing someone walking in the opposite direction within 2m for less than a second is taboo.

There are islands here in Orkney that have remained virtually cut off for more than 3 months. Their residents are not even allowed to travel to Kirkwall to visit the supermarkets. Instead, they are expected to use the island shops supported by a £5 a week shopping voucher from the local council. Meanwhile, those in Glasgow can travel to Edinburgh or beyond for shopping if they so wish. Our islanders here are effectively prisoners on their islands, prevented from boarding the ferries for things as simple as shopping. Meanwhile, these islands have had zero cases and zero fatalities.

Now, what that shows is that you can create containment areas, or maybe more accurately, COVID Free Areas. People in those areas should be free to move around and do what they always do. Being on a COVID free island and behaving like its everywhere would be as worthwhile as taking precautions against marauding lions in in Wick.

Where we have gone wrong, both as a Scottish country, and a United Kingdom, is failing to secure our island group (the UK) from the external threat of COVID. For months, our governments behaved completely irrationally by allowing people from outside the UK to freely come here and bring it with them. Only several months after lockdown, was there a wishy washy attempt at quarantine. Places like New Zealand, on the other hand, have always had an effective border, and were successful in all but eliminating COVID a few weeks ago, until they let their border guard down and allowed it back in again, ironically from the UK.

New Zealanders don't have to wear face masks to go shopping and they can even go to watch rugby matches. They got it right. We got it woefully wrong, and are going further wrong by the day. And before the divisionists jump in, the Scottish Government have got it as badly wrong as the UK Government. Their collective failure to have a New Zealand grade of virus import protection, along with their view that North Ronaldsay should be treated the same way as Govan, means that they are are bad. The saving grace for England now is that they are starting to recognise the immense damage that these steps are taking, and that the pill is very much worse than that ill. At least England are doing something really constructive to try and remedy it, though I am sure they wish that they had simply had New Zealand grade borders in the first place.

[Fulmar]

Yes, ok but NZ cannot stay isolated forever- no country can- and the moment it opens up (as it must) the virus is back. NZ may be free and easy now but they are not at the end of this yet by a long way, are they? Who is to say that face masks may be brought in there as well in the future.
I do not know the situation on the Orkney Islands in detail but people can now travel- the restrictions on 5 miles have been lifted- so locals can move about now at least and holiday makers are now beginning to come up. Orkney attracts a lot of holiday makers and much of it's local economy largely depends on those people coming back. I feel you are looking back not into the future. We all have to find a way of co-existing with this virus until means can be found to make it less deadly (either by a vaccine or other drugs or a natural decline in virulence which can also happen). Face masks are recognised to be a small measure- one little tool- but why wouldn't I or you want to use that tool just now if it helps a bit? It will not last forever but is needed just now and surely a very small sacrifice- it's only in shops and on public transport- is that too much for any of us to do? I don't think so.

[Corky Smeek]

A recent panelbase poll shows the Scottish public to be very supportive of the SG's approach to managing Covid19. In particular, they seem to support the suggestion of restricting travel across the border.

35251

[orkneycadian]

Yes, ok but NZ cannot stay isolated forever- no country can- and the moment it opens up (as it must) the virus is back. NZ may be free and easy now but they are not at the end of this yet by a long way, are they? Who is to say that face masks may be brought in there as well in the future.
I do not know the situation on the Orkney Islands in detail but people can now travel- the restrictions on 5 miles have been lifted- so locals can move about now at least and holiday makers are now beginning to come up. Orkney attracts a lot of holiday makers and much of it's local economy largely depends on those people coming back. I feel you are looking back not into the future. We all have to find a way of co-existing with this virus until means can be found to make it less deadly (either by a vaccine or other drugs or a natural decline in virulence which can also happen). Face masks are recognised to be a small measure- one little tool- but why wouldn't I or you want to use that tool just now if it helps a bit? It will not last forever but is needed just now and surely a very small sacrifice- it's only in shops and on public transport- is that too much for any of us to do? I don't think so.

Nicola Sturgeon has said a number of times, right from the beginning of this, that measures would be tailored to suit the area. This has simply not happened, and small islands in Orkney jump to the same tune as Sauchiehall Street, even though the situation is very very different.

I'll use North Ronaldsay again as an example. The policy of Orkney Ferries, as published on their website remains;

Travel to and from the islands for leisure and recreation by ferry is not encouraged. Tourism has not restarted and tourist facilities including accommodation will not be open. It is not possible to stay away from home overnight except in certain clearly defined circumstances, such as in the creation of an “extended household”.

Whereas in Southern Scotland, travel for more than 5 miles for leisure and recreation is not discouraged and is permitted. North Ronaldsay has a population of 72, and rather limited shopping opportunities. You could go into the shop there, be the only one in it, and have to wear the same face mask as you would in Tescos in Govan. Sure, you might think you are reducing the risk by wearing a mask in the North Ronaldsay shop. But you could also argue that carrying a big game gun in Wick will reduce your risk of being eaten by a lion. Yes, its highly unlikely that a lion will chase you down Bridge Street in Wick and eat you, but just in case, you would be safer if you carried a large calibre rifle with you.

New Zealand has always had a strict border, particularly for bio security. That's been the case for years, if not decades. Have you ever tried to bring for example, an apple in your baggage into New Zealand? Entry into New Zealand, even for UK nationals, is not a given, and you do have to provide your justification on entry. At times of pandemic, then that free entry is easily and simply stopped. Unlike the UK, where we have no ability it seems to stop anyone wandering in, with a fever, a dry cough and a loss of sense of taste or smell.

Right, must go off to the shops. Time to put on the anti mosquito hood, as there could be a very small chance of being bitten by a swarm of mosquitoes in the Kirkwall Lidl. A small chance I will grant you, but why wouldn't we take such precautions?

[Corky Smeek]

Mortality figures from Thursday last:-

Scotland: 1
Wales: 1
N. Ireland: 2
England: 133

I'll let people draw their own conclusions about the success, or otherwise, of how well the respective governments have managed the pandemic.

[Fulmar]

You would be arrested if you carried a rifle along Bridge Street!
I doubt if you would be arrested for not wearing a face mask in North Ronaldsay but then, everyone there will know you and that you haven't done so and you might face disapproval, I don't know. Depends how people there feel about it, I guess. You are, however, still looking back. How about when the ferries start disembarking the tourists again which will begin very soon. Maybe one of them will go into that shop on North Ronaldsay with no face mask on- what then. How will you know that person isn't an asymptomatic carrier/spreader of the virus? You can't see the virus whereas you can see a marauding lion- that is the point. I would wear the mosquito net as it will probably keep out the midges and they are rife now.
I've never had the money to travel to NZ so I really can't comment on that- but NZ needs tourists to support its economy, so far as I know. If I'd had an apple I would have eaten it long before touchdown as it is such a long flight to get there- that I do know for sure.

[orkneycadian]

OK, so should we be actively protecting ourselves against anything that could pose a harm to our health? Is now the time for us all to start wearing stab proof vests to guard against the very real prospect of being attacked with a knife? In England and Wales (sorry, no time to find UK wide statistics, there were over 43,000 knife crimes in the 12 months up to March 2019. We know that there are all too many stabbings these days, especially in places like London and Glasgow. As well as face masks to protect ourselves and others against COVID, is it also time for us to wear stab vests in public? And should the UK law be changed to allow civilians to protect themselves against other forms of attack by legalising things like pepper spray and tasers?

We know that trying to legislate against knives being carried in public places simply doesn't work, so is it time to only go shopping in suitable PPE? And if not, why is it acceptable to continue to expose our citizens to the very real risk of being stabbed?

[Corky Smeek]

Ignorance or deception, I'm not sure which category that last post from the Daily Mail's Northern Isles correspondent falls into.

It may be that he is ignorant of the successes of the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit in reducing knife crime in Scotland. That being the case this article may help:- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45572691

A more likely explanation would appear to be deception. He only produces knife crime statistics for England & Wales using the excuse of time pressures. I may be cynical but could it be that the success of the initiative in Scotland would spoil his narrative of always doing Scotland down at every opportunity? It wouldn't look good for him to have to acknowledge a Scottish success would it? It might look like we are a quite capable population able to come up with our own ideas that work and are copied by English police forces.

[Fulmar]

Orkneycadian, like many other people you are actually missing the point. Someone like a policeman wears a stab vest to protect himself from attack and injury. We are asked to wear a face mask, not to protect ourselves (which it does not do) but to protect others. However, if all are wearing them in a shop or on a bus as well as observing the social distancing, then all are that little bit more protected.
Throughout the pandemic, many have been scared of getting Covid 19 but they have been even more worried about passing it on to others and I've lost count of the number of times a friend or family member has said 'I couldn't stand it if I passed it on to someone else, maybe not even knowing that I had it in the first place'.
The science has come down a bit more now on the side of the benefit of wearing face masks (even if only small), that is why the measure has or will be introduced.
So, I ask you again, why do you appear to be so unwilling to take a small measure that will help protect your friends and neighbours in Orkney? Orkney is a lovely friendly place full of great folk- so why, why, why?

[orkneycadian]

In relation to your second sentence above Fulmar, in the shocking attack in Glasgow a week past Friday, just 1 of the 6 victims was a policeman. The other 5 of the 6 were civilians. A week or 2 before that, the 3 men killed in Reading as a result of a different stabbing frenzy were all civilians as well. So just from those 2 incidents, being a police officer does not put you at the highest risk of being on the receiving end of a knife attack. Civilians seem to be more likely to be attacked. So, to then take your second last sentence, why would the government not take the small measure of mandating stab proof clothing to protect you, your friends and neighbours? Apparantly, some folk, especially in London, are paying £30 for covert stab proof (allegedly, at £30 theres maybe more a false sense of security going on.....) clothing that is covert and worn under existing shirts, tops, etc. Now, if it only costs £30, can be worn under clothing and might save you from being stabbed, why, why, why is our Governments not making its use compulsory? The science of stab vests is a lot more accurate than that of facemasks. I note that stab vests have very stringent rating categories, depending on the force of the attack.

OK, so thats my point on stab vests. Coming back to masks. So, we say that they make a small difference to COVID transmission. Should we now also wear them for the rest of time to mitigate transmission of the seasonal flu, bearing in mind that that flu has the capability of killing thousands a winter in Scotland and tens of thousands in a winter in the UK? I have no doubt that any perceived benefits of masks in reducing COVID transmission will have a similar benefit in reducing the incidence of seasonal flu as well. So why would we not wear masks all winter too to try and reduce the number of seasonal flu victims?

To go a bit further, if we all, when out walking as pedestrians, wore an inflatable sumo suit (Google it.....), we would be a little bit more protected against being hit by a vehicle. I wouldn't like to get stabbed in one though, or I might take off and fly in circles like an escaping balloon..... But that air cushion may help reduce the level of injuries sustained by pedestrians if struck by a vehicle. So why will the government not make it compulsory to walk around in one, "just in case"? There are plenty people injured by being struck by vehicles each year, so why, why, why would a precaution that will reduce the likelihood of injury or death not be made compulsory?

[Fulmar]

Most of what you say is a total red herring in my view. Me wearing a stab vest won't protect you from being stabbed (unlikely though it is that you will be stabbed). Me wearing a face mask in a shop alongside of you might protect you from Covid 19 if I was infected but did not know it. You can do something to protect others but you don't want to, that's what it amounts to, isn't it.
Personally, when I have had a nasty respiratory virus (although I don't think I have ever had true flu and thankfully, I get the jab), I have stayed at home away from others (a) because I tend not to feel at all well in those circumstances and (b) because I didn't want anyone else to catch it off me. I certainly would not go anywhere near anyone elderly or vulnerable and would not go to usual activities while ill- that is actually general medical advice and what you should do. I absolutely do take flu seriously and now that masks are here and being worn, if I absolutely had to go somewhere while unwell in those circumstances, I would put one on. Also, I am someone who, if and when someone has complained about having a rotten cold and coughing and spluttering in company (and I'm sure everyone reading will be able to identify with this), will be the one who backs off and tells them to keep it to themselves because I don't want to catch it.
I guess you and I are very different people and with very different ideas about what constitutes social responsibilty. Covid 19 is carrying off thousands world wide in a rapid and nasty way and it is not done with any country or population yet and there are upwards of 44,000 reasons here in these islands why I am committed to doing all that I can do in any way I can. You can go on all you like until the cows come home and no doubt you will but that is it for me.

[orkneycadian]

Blooming cows have still not arrived home - Word is that they are sheltering in some disused WW2 bunkers in case Foot and Mouth comes along. And they are apparently wearing some WW2 gas masks in case they pick up anthrax.

As I recall, there was never any intention in this caper that we would not all get coronavirus. Instead, we were told that we had to "flatten the curve" otherwise the NHS would be overwhelmed. Instead, we have an NHS that has been totally underwhelmed. Most of the flagship field hospitals, including the Louisa Jordan in Glasgow have never seen a single patient, and are now dreaming up things for them to do. I think London's, at the peak saw 19 out of a possible 4000 patients. Meanwhile, reports abound of hospital staff having nothing to do.

We were told that we would be woefully short of ventilators. Industry was asked to help. They did, then were told we didn't need them after all.

So, in terms of curve flattening, we are doing great. In fact, there's hardly any curve left, and in Orkney we have flat lined. But the downside is that we are not attaining any natural immunity. A bit like swathing yourself and your house in so much disinfectant cleaner that your immune system goes to sleep.

The BBC report today that 80% of people who have had positive COVID tests had no symptoms. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53320155

Now, that takes a fair bit of doing, given that you only get a test if you have symptoms..... So, 85% of people who have it, don't even know about it and 80% of people who test positive have no symptoms.

Then we hear on Radio Scotland this morning, Kay Adams telling us that up to 35,000 people could die of untreated cancer, thanks to the health service going on hold due to Conoravirus? And on top of that, the Office for National Statistics are now telling us on https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending26june2020 that the death rate has fallen below the weekly average for this time of year for the 2nd week in a row. OK, early days yet, but does this suggest that some of those who died in the last 3 months with Conoravirus are the ones who would statistically be dying in the next 3 months anyway?

And now, there's the suggestion that by putting on a mask, that we were told 3 months ago was a waste of time, will make your shopping trips safer for you and those around you? And all this is expected to be believed? Sure, we believed it early on, even though we all knew that the horse had well and truly bolted through the border door. And that's what this now seems to be - A diversion tactic from the massive failure that was to let this virus into our country in the first place, even though on the whole its rather benign, unless you already happen to be at deaths door, in which case, it might yank you in a little quicker than you were expecting. You say, Fulmar, if you are still reading, that we need to look forward, and not back. But without looking back we are in danger of enacting the saying which has been rightly or wrongly attributed to Einstein - "The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again, whilst hoping for different results". So, if we only look forward, and not back, but hope that the "problem" will go away, without tackling the root cause, then we are the stupid ones.

So, to reassure you Fulmar, yes, I will wear a mask when I have to, just like all the other sheeple. We have to now on ferries and soon to be in shops. Will it make a blind hoot of difference? I doubt it, other than to give some of the sheeple a false sense of security, and make them feel all warm inside for "doing their bit"

[Corky Smeek]

@ Orkneycadian - who probably won't read this, but what the heck! You said the following:-

"And now, there's the suggestion that by putting on a mask, that we were told 3 months ago was a waste of time, will make your shopping trips safer for you and those around you?".

Three months ago the science told us masks were not likely to be very effective. Now, in the light of all the new knowledge and experience gained whilst managing the pandemic, the scientists have revised their opinion and have suggested that wearing masks may have some benefit; not to the wearers but to those in close proximity to the wearer.

This is pretty much the standard way that scientific knowledge is gained - hypothesise, test, refine, repeat - and has been for centuries. To blame-shift towards scientists is ludicrous.

Stop scaremongering.

[The Horseman]

Gosh, I think the only Common Sense is coming frae that Orkneyman!
You should all listen to The Voice of common sense!

HEAR YE/ HEAR YE!

[orkneycadian]

Steady now Horseman.......

Contrary to the popular saying, it appears easy to soar like an eagle, when you are surrounded by turkeys......

Unfortunately, the conversation in this part of the forum is largely driven by sock puppets, with a very divisive agenda. Against a backdrop of endless divisive postings, anything looks sensible.

[Corky Smeek]

Those of us who are proud separatists have "...a very divisive agenda.", or so the Daily Mail's man in the far north says. Unfortunately for him, our agenda seems to be gaining considerable traction within the Scottish electorate.

The latest summary of polling evidence from Electoral Calculus (https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/scotland.html) indicates that if there were to be an election now the SNP would win 58 out of the 59 seats in Scotland. It appears that against a backdrop of endless broken promises by Unionist parties the Scottish people have had enough of being part of this disunited kingdom.

[The Horseman]

Steady now Horseman.......

Contrary to the popular saying, it appears easy to soar like an eagle, when you are surrounded by turkeys......

Unfortunately, the conversation in this part of the forum is largely driven by sock puppets, with a very divisive agenda. Against a backdrop of endless divisive postings, anything looks sensible.

I concur! Beeg wordy for them!

[Oddquine]

Those of us who are proud separatists have "...a very divisive agenda.", or so the Daily Mail's man in the far north says. Unfortunately for him, our agenda seems to be gaining considerable traction within the Scottish electorate.

The latest summary of polling evidence from Electoral Calculus (https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/scotland.html) indicates that if there were to be an election now the SNP would win 58 out of the 59 seats in Scotland. It appears that against a backdrop of endless broken promises by Unionist parties the Scottish people have had enough of being part of this disunited kingdom.

It isn't really us with the divisive agenda, though, is it? It is the UK Tory government which has that. We will just take advantage of it if we can. What is more divisive than two constituent parts of the UK voting to stay in the EU...and only one of them being allowed to? What is more divisive than Westminster being prepared to reduce all our food standards, food labelling, geographic branding etc and sell off our NHS (and any other of the few public services we still own outright) in order to get a trade deal with the USA? What is more divisive than England, via its built-in Parliamentary majority, deciding that it will use Henry VIII powers to impose acceptance of all they say on trade post Brexit without even discussing it with the devolved governments? What is more divisive than any or all devolved Governments saying "No thanks! That doesn't work for us..let's talk about it!" and the UK government saying.."Tough..just suck it up, buttercup...we have decided and that is what is going to happen!"

[The Horseman]

Just read what the Scottish Leader said today!
Perhaps those who are so outspoken should take some advice!
And ‘Henri #8’ is long gone.

[orkneycadian]

#notmyleader

[Corky Smeek]

What a bl**dy hypocrite the man from Orkney is!

He goes on and on about open borders being the root of our Covid infection rate and demands that we place controls on who can get into the UK. Then, when one country in the UK says that it may do exactly as he wants he is up in arms about it.

Your average BritNat has held a variety of views on the subject in recent years:

Indy Ref 1 - Borders are a bad thing. We should not put in place barriers to trade and free movement of people.
Brexit - We must regain control of our borders. Borders are a good thing. We must restrict immigration and keep johnny foreigner out.
UK Covid 19 - Borders are needed to help curtail the spread of the virus. Borders are a very good thing.
Scottish Covid19 - We cannot have borders within the UK. Borders are a very bad thing.

For the love of God make up your minds about what you want; apart from having your cake and eating it that is.

[Corky Smeek]

The future is looking even darker this morning.

Stuart Campbell has just posted this on his website - https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-land-of-mystery/

In the past I have half-jokingly referred to HMG as the English Government. Today ministers in that government have indicated the following policy initiative which tends to prove that very often jokes imitate real events.

"Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are set to be handed powers in areas such as air quality and animal welfare currently regulated at EU level. But in a bid to protect cross-border trade, they will have to recognise standards drawn up elsewhere in the UK.

Where do you think this "..elsewhere in the UK.", might be? Re-write the quote as follows and the reality hits you square in the face.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are set to be handed powers in areas such as air quality and animal welfare currently regulated at EU level. But in a bid to protect cross-border trade, they will have to recognise standards drawn up in England.

As predicted, the power grab is underway - http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?276018-Be-afraid-Scotland-be-very-afraid

[Oddquine]

The future is looking even darker this morning.

Stuart Campbell has just posted this on his website - https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-land-of-mystery/

In the past I have half-jokingly referred to HMG as the English Government. Today ministers in that government have indicated the following policy initiative which tends to prove that very often jokes imitate real events.

"Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are set to be handed powers in areas such as air quality and animal welfare currently regulated at EU level. But in a bid to protect cross-border trade, they will have to recognise standards drawn up elsewhere in the UK.

Where do you think this "..elsewhere in the UK.", might be? Re-write the quote as follows and the reality hits you square in the face.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are set to be handed powers in areas such as air quality and animal welfare currently regulated at EU level. But in a bid to protect cross-border trade, they will have to recognise standards drawn up in England.

As predicted, the power grab is underway - http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?276018-Be-afraid-Scotland-be-very-afraid


So much for the UK being a Union of any description, far less one with equal partners...it is just an 'elected by English voters' dictatorship. In a real democratic Union, like the EU, for example, there would be much debating and perhaps some compromising on standards...and not just the biggest country laying down the law and the others just having to suck it up...because the other countries in the EU have the option of just getting up and leaving, without asking permission.

[Corky Smeek]

...because the other countries in the EU have the option of just getting up and leaving, without asking permission.

Nail hit squarely on the head there. It might be worth re-posting Boris Johnson's thoughts on the matter:-

“We have an England-only parliament. It’s Westminster.” Boris Johnson, 30th June 2019

It's fairly clear that Scotland's views don't count for much in Westminster. When we ask for something the majority want (IndyRef2) they just keep saying "No".

[The Horseman]

Equal partners? You are one tenth Of the The UK.

[Corky Smeek]

Equal partners? You are one tenth Of the The UK.

Interesting choice of words there. "You are one tenth of the UK". Exactly the sort of language the English government uses. What happened to the first person plural personal pronoun, "we"? Only gets used when politically expedient - "we are all in this together"; "we are better together"; "we are a Union of equals", etc, etc. The minute it doesn't suit it changes back to "you" as in, "you will do what you are told"; "you will get what we give you"; "you don't count", etc, etc.

[The Horseman]

Cheeze WHIZZZZZZ....

WE are one tenth of the UK! No wonder there are probs in this World. PICKY/PICKY.

[Corky Smeek]

Cheeze WHIZZZZZZ....

WE are one tenth of the UK! No wonder there are probs in this World. PICKY/PICKY.

Sorry, I disagree. Words are extremely powerful weapons - the pen is mightier than the sword, and all that.

Being a Trump fan I take it you have heard of the phrase "dog whistle politics". He uses it to great effect. I found the following definition:

"It's political shorthand for a phrase that may sound innocuous to some people, but which also communicates something more insidious either to a subset of the audience or outside of the audience’s conscious awareness...".

Politicians choose their words very carefully. They know the impact a well worded phrase can have both on their supporters and opponents. The use of the word "you" instead of "we" is a classic example of this phenomenon. On first glance it is innocuous. However, it can send a very strong message about the nature of the relationship between two parties as I tried to show above.

[orkneycadian]

Cheeze WHIZZZZZZ...

Fortunately, not a product we are blighted with here in the UK! I gather you may however have to endure it over there in Canada. My sympathies..... Over here we use real cheese.

[The Horseman]

And America has Chlorinated Chicken.....I think we do also!
Safe they say. Just ‘don’t give a Cluck’!

Ohhhhhh....A Trump Fan! Not really, but someone has to do something about the mess the World is in. And his ‘Mither wis a SCOT!
You may not agree, but Prez Trump is no worse than his Predecessors.
Stop watching the Liberal paid for News....CNN........Every day anti Trump garbage!
I thot the Scottish people were more aware of ‘fake news’!
Do u think Boris is emulating him! Smart man!

That will give you all food for thought and analysis! Ty........

[Corky Smeek]

Ohhhhhh....A Trump Fan! Not really, but someone has to do something about the mess the World is in. And his ‘Mither wis a SCOT!
You may not agree, but Prez Trump is no worse than his Predecessors.
Stop watching the Liberal paid for News....CNN........Every day anti Trump garbage!
I thot the Scottish people were more aware of ‘fake news’!
Do u think Boris is emulating him! Smart man!

That will give you all food for thought and analysis! Ty........

Well, as they say, if Trump is the answer then it must have been a bl**dy silly question. The notion that he is doing something about the mess the world is in is utterly ludicrous. He has been unable to get his own house in order and is actually one of the main reasons the world is in such a mess. Have you any idea how reviled the man is in the wider world? He is one of the greatest threats to the planet that there has ever been. He is a climate change denier; a wormonger; a racist; a Covid 19 under-estimator; a gun supporter and an inveterate liar who considers himself an expert on everything. Others, I am sure, could add to the list. He is actually a heck of a lot worse than many of his predecessors, which given the standards they set, is some feat.

Boris is just doing what Trump and the US Administration is telling him to do. The Huawei scandal is just the latest in a long list of examples of the UK clinging to America's coat tails. Just watch; the coming months will show just how much control the US is going to have over our lives as the UK sells its soul for a transatlantic trade deal.

[orkneycadian]

And America has Chlorinated Chicken.....I think we do also!
Safe they say. Just ‘don’t give a Cluck’!

Ohhhhhh....A Trump Fan! Not really, but someone has to do something about the mess the World is in. And his ‘Mither wis a SCOT!
You may not agree, but Prez Trump is no worse than his Predecessors.
Stop watching the Liberal paid for News....CNN........Every day anti Trump garbage!
I thot the Scottish people were more aware of ‘fake news’!
Do u think Boris is emulating him! Smart man!

That will give you all food for thought and analysis! Ty........

Over here, they even put chlorine in our water. But none in the chicken. As a result, we get lots of chicken related food poisoning events each year.

Fortunately, at least some of us here in Scotland are aware of Fake News - And usually, we manage to completely ignore it. But there are some that fall for it, day in, day out. For example, the ones that believe that all deaths involving coronavirus are deaths due to coronavirus. They also think that the world will be saved by farcemasks.

[Fulmar]

Nobody believes that the world will be saved by face masks and no one on here has ever said so either.

[The Horseman]

Oh Corky.....
You do have a lot to learn about the Real World!
Scotland has 5 Million people........
This is not the time to be ‘pulling the plug’ on the UK. There are strength in numbers.
Nothing wrong with a Clean Chucken.....Cluck...cluck!

How wonderful. Boris is coming to Scotland! That will sort all the probs out....... eh!

[Corky Smeek]

This is not the time to be ‘pulling the plug’ on the UK. There are strength in numbers.

There is no strength in numbers for Scotland within the UK. There will be for an independent Scotland within the EU.

[Oddquine]

Maybe the Horseman, or someone else, can convince us of the strength in numbers and economies of scale from which we benefit due to the Union...because I'm blowed if I see any benefits.

[The Horseman]

Have u read what is happening at the EU?
Everyone wants ‘Bailouts’! Where is the money coming from.
The EU is a total wreck!

You've all heard of a Ponzi Scheme? This is what is occurring. Everyone is lending money to everyone on paper they don’t have.
Soon this is going to blow up!

[Corky Smeek]

Have u read what is happening at the EU?
Everyone wants ‘Bailouts’! Where is the money coming from.
The EU is a total wreck!

If the EU is a total wreck then I don't think I have the words to express how much worse the UK is and is going to be.

[The Horseman]

The ‘UNITED KINGDOM‘ is going to do fine!
Just wait until u get ‘connected’ with Canada and America! Our Chicken is so much cleaner!!
Scotland and England ...Life Long partners. How much better cud it b! Xx

[Corky Smeek]

The ‘UNITED KINGDOM‘ is going to do fine!
Just wait until u get ‘connected’ with Canada and America! Our Chicken is so much cleaner!!
Scotland and England ...Life Long partners. How much better cud it b! Xx

Sorry about the delay in replying. I've been laughing so hard I couldn't type. The UK is not going to be fine. Quite apart from all the Covid19 and Brexit crises a recent poll showed half of English voters want to end the Union too. The UK is going to end soon. It's just a question of when, not if.

[The Horseman]

Again I say......now is not the time to separate! Sing..Better together!

[Corky Smeek]

Again I say......now is not the time to separate!

Oh, yes it is! Absolutely, it is! Without doubt it is!

[The Horseman]

Ohhhh deary me!
Well at the present time I do hope u will Fail, and I think u will!
U would rather let people suffer, than use the ‘stashed away money’ for your Indy thingy.
Let the populace decide!

[orkneycadian]

Let the populace decide!

We did. In 2014, we decided we didn't want Scexit. In 2016, we decided we did want Independence (from the EU)

[The Horseman]

The same rubbish as you trotted out before without a shred of evidence.

Please explain...ty..

In addition...Would u say The Guardian Newspaper is an Objective Reporter?

[Corky Smeek]

According to many newspaper front pages this morning Boris Johnson is visiting Scotland today. Apparently, Westminster is in the midst of a general "panic" over the threat to the Union as more and more Scots embrace the idea of Independence.

This rise in support for Indy has only occurred since Johnson took office back in December. With that in mind I should like to extend a very warm welcome to him and to offer him my thanks, in advance, for the inevitable further boost his visit will give to the campaign for Independence.

[The Horseman]

Article in The Guardian...bit of a scathing rebuke of ‘The Powers that Be’ in Scotland. Comments?

[Corky Smeek]

Article in The Guardian...bit of a scathing rebuke of ‘The Powers that Be’ in Scotland. Comments?

Well it would have nice if you had included a link as I have been unable to find what you are referring to. However, during my search I did find this article, entitled "Plaudits for Nicola Sturgeon fuel talk of Scottish independence drive", in the Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/19/plaudits-for-nicola-sturgeon-fuel-talk-of-scottish-independence-drive

Thanks for pointing us all in that direction.

[The Horseman]

Mehinks u shud read the piece about the Care Homes!
But they cannot vote!

[Corky Smeek]

Mehinks u shud read the piece about the Care Homes!
But they cannot vote!

Well, I would if you would provide the link.

[The Horseman]

Well, I would if you would provide the link.

It is in the Guardian Newspaper you quoted.
4,000 deaths for 5 Million population and 47% in Care Homes, is not something to be proud if, but they are ‘lauding’ her anyway!
I do not care if Scotland leaves, but to be highlighting that in the middle of the mess we are in, seems.....I dunno.

If it the honest wish of the people...’so be it’!
But u have still to get permission from The UK?

[Corky Smeek]

But u have still to get permission from The UK?

A Union where one party has to ask for permission from the other party to leave is not a union. It's a hostage situation.

[orkneycadian]

But u have still to get permission from The UK?

A lot harder, Horseman, is gaining the permission of Orkney and Shetland, by way of those areas also voting for Scexit. The separatists introduced the mantra that nobody can be dragged out of a union against their will. Having introduced it, they now have to abide by it. So Scexit is impossible until Orkney and Shetland are on side. Good luck with that.

[orkneycadian]

In relation to your second sentence above Fulmar, in the shocking attack in Glasgow a week past Friday, just 1 of the 6 victims was a policeman.

Disturbing reading on the Scotland page of the BBC website today;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-53544182

Woman charged over suspicious death in Coatbridge
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-53544178

Detectives hunt gang after 'violent' street attack in Edinburgh
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-53539833

Arrest after teenager's suspicious death in Helensburgh
Almost half of the top 7 "headline" stories are of attacks and deaths in the Southern Belt. Looks like down there, stab vests are more likely to save your life than a face nappy.

[The Horseman]

World Headlines....
N Sturgeon Misleading The Scots/. Massive cuts in store if Referendum goes ahead!
Not all the Media can be wrong!

[orkneycadian]

Och, Horseman, that's not news headlines. Wee Krankie has been misleading Scots for years, even before she wangled herself to the top of the Pretendy Parliament. We all know it, but unfortunately a minority are too blind to see it.

And we have known for years too that if Scexit, or even the neverendum for it went ahead, that there would be big cuts. We haven't even had either yet, and the cuts are already severe, in all areas bar taxation.