I WANT BROADBAND

[Anonymous]

My X-Box feels so lonely without it. And X-Box live is due to go online any day now :( :( :(
Cmon ppl just register, its actually cheaper than the connection I have now.

[©Amethyst]

We're wanting broadband at work... I think BT are just being difficult!

Businesses would really benefit from it too!

[Partan]

We're wanting broadband at work... I think BT are just being difficult!



Telewest have a service called Blueyonder which claims to be Broadband. Why don't you contact them?

Partan

[CeeJay]

Come on Partan, behave yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know perfectly well Telewest is not available in the North.

Did Santa leave a big wooden spoon in your stocking? :evil :evil

[Partan]

Come on Partan, behave yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know perfectly well Telewest is not available in the North.



CeeJay

You do surprise me!!!

Here’s me thinking that Caithness had the advantage of all modern communication facilities and services!

After all are not British Airways, Ryan Air and EasyJet queing up to reserve flight slots from the upgraded and modernised (PPP funded) Wick Airport? The new dual carriageway from Wick/Thurso to Inverness will have the express coach companies nose to tail over the Ord. Now that the Dornoch Bridge link is finished Virgin Express will be introducing their springtime schedules with the 200mph, tilting train service to the South. When the Scrabster pier extension is finished (currently scheduled for summer 2020) there will be scope for a hydrofoil ferry, 1000 passenger capacity, direct to the continent and with North American services to follow. Of course, the low petrol prices in the county will continue to attract day trippers coming to fill up their tanks. Derv is readily available too if you ignore the funny colour.

Or should I be in Fantasy Island?

Partan

PS Off now to book my January break in the Caribbean – dash it, this slow speed link means it will take hours to do the booking!

PPS Better idea, off till hev a sook at sum o e barleycorn at Santa left til me!

[Bill Fernie]

Here is a link to an item on the New Statesman web site that shows the problem in statements or announcements from government about how fast we will all get up to date IT services. Get the tissues it may make you weep......... http://www.newstatesman.co.uk/nma/nma200320030002.htm

[KitKat]

God Partan, you've been listening to Cooncillor Rosie's rhetoric again haven't you.. Silly man!

[Partan]

God Partan, you've been listening to Cooncillor Rosie's rhetoric again haven't you.. Silly man!

KitKat - you really take the biscuit!!

You've lost me!!! What was Cooncillor Rosie's rhetoric??

Partan

[acameron]

Recently I sent a wee email asking what the trigger level was and this was the reply .... bit of a kick in the head for all the people who has gone to the trouble of registering,...also heard in the news today that funding was set up to supply Broadband to some of the remote towns ...Oban was one of them ..so why not Caithness..we need to flag up this to Jack McConnell and let him know that Caithness exsists

anyway heres the reply I got for the trigger question



"The Thurso exchange has been reviewed by BT in the initial set of 900
exchanges to see whether a trigger level could be set for it. Unfortunately,
the costs of upgrading your exchange has proven so high, that the trigger
level would have been unrealistic compared against the number of subscribers
on that exchange. Consequently, we have decided not to publish it.

There are a number of substantial costs involved in upgrading an exchange
for broadband ADSL--these include the ADSL equipment in the exchange, the
installation of that equipment and the back haul connections. We built in a
50 per cent risk when we set the trigger levels, so in other words, we
budgeted for only 50 per cent of the costs to be covered. This means that
when we set a trigger level of, for example, 550, we actually need 1100
customers to return our initial investments.

Due to significant cost savings, BT have recently reviewed all the
exchanges, which either had a trigger level or were marked as unviable,
again to see whether the savings could be reflected in the trigger levels.
As a result, we were able to reduce 388 targets, set 87 new ones and move 22
exchanges straight into the build stage.

Unfortunately, in spite of these cost savings, it has still not been
possible to set a target for Thurso. We are now looking specifically at your
exchange, and the other unviable ones with large demand, to find further
cost reductions that will hopefully bring them into the ‘viable’ area.

For areas where there is a specific economic or public need for broadband,
we are creating alliances with local councils, Regional Development Agencies
and other organisations to cooperate in encouraging both supply and demand.

I am sorry I cannot offer you any better news at the moment,

Regards,

Miranda van de Heijning

BT Wholesale

Broadband Deployment"[/b]

[Bill Fernie]

We are going to be faced with this for some time. Either we keep bashing on trying to get people to sign up so that at least we quantify for BT the demand that might exist in the area and within range of the exchanges although that is not of much help if you live outwith those areas. Or alternatively we could be a bit more creative and set about trying to get enough people together say 30 or 40 in each area and go to a company that might be prepared to set up the sytem like the schemes you are talking about. The possibility then might exist that as a community you might migrate to ADSL if it is ever installed. The possibility then exists that as you migrate your group onto ADSL land based you might keep them as cutomers and get your link up from either your own supply or another supplier that might be cheaper than BT. In that event stand back as you will be swamped with all the customers in Caithness.
If you think that is impossible I would advise everyone that I am being contacted by people who are interested in grouping potential customers to receive Broadband on Satellite. It is not what we really want but might act as a half way house until we see if the exchanges will ever be upgraded.
Let's see few postings here indicating if interested in this somewhat slower but at least Broadband and always on set up. If there is sufficient interest here then I will make further enquiries and see if we could set upa meeting with one or two companies now begining to make tracks to Caithness.orgs door as a possible way of grouping some of you out there together. The gamers do not want this set up as the ping rate will not match full ADSL services but is that of interest to most of you who have signed up at the BT site or the HIE site.
The communities you mentioned are getting assitance from HIE and its a bit of an expeirment but it is now proven technology. If there is sufficient demand in this forum I will go to CASE and ask if they would be willing to help us get schemes going in Wick, Thurso and anywhere else in the county that can drum up enough potential customers. We are probably talking about at least 30 and possibly 40 in case some drop out as the whole scheme gets going. These are not guaranteed figures as obviously it needs to be costed. But judging by the enquiries I am getting from potential suppliers it seems to be in this area to make it viable.
If anyone out there want to start a small telecom business then this could be your chance to invest in the county. If anyone feesl they are in thiscategory I am in touch with another on the technical side to talk specifications if needed.
Back to you all for a few weeks to see what you think.

[Colin Manson]

I honestly think that Broadband on Satellite would be like taking a step backwards. With the latency that Satellite has, it use as a means of broadband connection are limited.

What we could really do with is the Hydro Electric's power line technology, with speeds up to 2MB and its potential coverage it would be the idea means of providing broadband to the whole of Caithness and not just a limited number of people living in and around Wick and Thurso.

I think we should give up on BT because they have a very backwards view of our actual use of the internet.

Cheers
Colin Manson
Administrator

[Anonymous]

After all are not British Airways, Ryan Air and EasyJet queing up to reserve flight slots from the upgraded and modernised (PPP funded) Wick Airport? The new dual carriageway from Wick/Thurso to Inverness will have the express coach companies nose to tail over the Ord. Now that the Dornoch Bridge link is finished Virgin Express will be introducing their springtime schedules with the 200mph, tilting train service to the South. When the Scrabster pier extension is finished (currently scheduled for summer 2020) there will be scope for a hydrofoil ferry, 1000 passenger capacity, direct to the continent and with North American services to follow. Of course, the low petrol prices in the county will continue to attract day trippers coming to fill up their tanks. Derv is readily available too if you ignore the funny colour.

Or should I be in Fantasy Island?

That just burst's my sides,

I mean what a waste of money all that will be as there is nothing for ppl to come here and do, except for maybe the elderly who like taking pictures of the odd hill or ruin.

Caithness suks!

There is NOTHING TO DO HERE!!

[Anonymous]

There is SO much to do in Caithness - get off your backside and get out!!!

[DrSzin]

I honestly think that Broadband on Satellite would be like taking a step backwards. With the latency that Satellite has, it use as a means of broadband connection are limited.
Unfortunately, I think Colin is right. See also the previous thread on this topic:

http://www.caithness.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1131

It's a long time since I've used satellite internet, and its reliability may have improved greatly since then. However, assuming that I didn't screw up my previous calculations, then you will NEVER get round-trip ping times from satellite that are better than 500ms. This may only be half a second, but that is a long time for interactive use, I can assure you. For comparison, round-trip ping times to caithness.org from my desktop machine are currently averaging about 11.5ms.

Bill, I would strongly recommend that you try out satellite broadband before considering embarking on any venture.


What we could really do with is the Hydro Electric's power line technology, with speeds up to 2MB and its potential coverage it would be the idea means of providing broadband to the whole of Caithness and not just a limited number of people living in and around Wick and Thurso.

Sounds interesting. I had forgotten about that. What's the story there?

One final question. Does Dounreay not have a fast internet connection? Surely they don't just use modem and/or ISDN? Do they?

What about Thurso/North Highland College? Do they also survive on modem or ISDN? And BT/Manpower? ...

[Anonymous]

:D i think its an excellent idea,bt are ovbiously dragging there heels.bill,if you went to c.a.s.e and asked them for a grant for a sattelite set-up,then im sure they would help.its of paramount importance that buisnesses in caithness have high speed access.its time you organized a meeting up there,for interested parties.my brother accesses the internet through his laptop and mobile phone....very expensive,but in rural parts of the country,a must have.im lucky.as you know......mee has the 1mb line... www.blueyonder.co.uk/evenfaster everybody in uk,is waking upto broadband.....and its not fair that caithness should be left behind.....i wish you well....... londonwicker ps....surely dounreays not on dail-up.........?????????

[kwbrown111]

can't we just highjack the cable coming in to caithness from faroes

[P]

Hi, *new to this BB by the way!*

There are many possibilities to bringing broadband internet access to this region, satellite, ADSL, wireless & powerline technology are the more realistic of the solutions.
Each of those respectively has its own unique problems. Satellite suffers from a high latency problem which disregarded by some is, in a real world environment too slow to be useable. ADSL though some see as the golden egg in the broadband world would also be a major catastrophe up here, what BT fail to tell the average consumer is that a very high percentage of the local loop in the main towns of Wick and Thurso are served by aluminium cable - not copper. This subtle difference means that most people even within a short distance of the exchange would be unable to recieve the service anyway.
Wireless, again a great promise is limited because the initiatives in place use the unlicensed frequency bands, they are only able to serve very small areas effectively and suffer from interference from every day devices which we all have in our homes. Powerline again seems suitable however leads to the main point...

All the initiatives proposed by people such as HIE, CASE, scots exec and HIPP are stopgap solutions, their sole aim seems to be to bring very sporadic broadband access to the region, they are not planning for the future, they made the same mistake with ISDN - too little, too late. Whilst we are using either ISDN or POTS modems, europe is enjoying domestic services up to 8Mbps at the moment and paying much less than we currently pay for dialup. The standard service in the USA currently served by timewarner is a 2.5Mbps connection - again for less than we pay for dialup.
The point of all of this is that whilst we are struggling to achieve any access, other countries are already two steps ahead. The Internet version 2 is looking more and more like a realistic possibility, our current internet was only ever intended to be a temporary measure and as such it is dated and slow. IPv6 is being finalised and offers several million addresses per square metre of earth - again, preparing for a next generation internet full of wireless and other consumer units - everyone else is preparing for the real internet revolution yet once again the Highland region is left behind.

Whilst ADSL, satellite and powerline technologies provide a very short term solution, they will not offer the bandwidth into the home and office that we will very shortly require just to make the internet useable. Designers and developers are at the moment constrained because the content they can deliver must be able to squeeze down a phone line either via modem or via atm/adsl. Most of this you may think is a long way off however with the speeds already reaching 8-10Mbps in europe (as a result of early investment) the world standard will soon be much much greater than the UK will be able to use - that means designers will start to design more and more high bandwith applications - the Highlands certainly will not be able to use them.

What we require is blanket coverage not dependant on whether or not there are only two users in a certain area - we need a solution that will offer it to anyone regardless of where they are at the same cost as it is to everyone else. ADSL cannot offer that due to the limiting factor of principally distance and secondly the high amount of aluminium in the local loop. Satellite is again, too slow and whilst powerline may look attractive - that will very soon be too slow. The only option it seems is wireless, that may look unattractive at first however with licensed frequencies it is very much possible with blanket coverage across the region and it will also provide more than enough bandwidth for the next 20 years of percieved requirements. The technology is tried tested and proven yet the powers that be choose to ignore it - you surely have to ask why? It seems they are more concerned running an ad campaign to gather marketing data for their next funding bid than actually providing broadband...

Broadband is a realistic possibility for the Highland region and it could be available to everyone with very little cost to the user and with all things be relative - relaitvely little cost to the provider. Anyway...any more and I might give away the gameplan but safe to say, it is a possibility - we all just need to open our eyes a little more and stop believing every word that certain organisations say! :eek:

[Bill Fernie]

Thanks for this very clear contribution and if the game plan needs any push from this web site just let whoever has a good game plan to get in touch and we will see if we can give it a boost

[DrSzin]

Wowee, P! Thanks for taking the time to write such a long clear informative post in which you tell us the answers to e-life, the e-universe and e-everything else. I dare say you are right about wireless technology, but why post it if you are not going to tell us what your gameplan is? (stir, stir)

You were also perhaps a little disingenuous in parts:



Whilst we are using either ISDN or POTS modems, europe is enjoying domestic services up to 8Mbps at the moment and paying much less than we currently pay for dialup. The standard service in the USA currently served by timewarner is a 2.5Mbps connection - again for less than we pay for dialup.

Comparison of a "remote" rural area such as Caithness with "some parts of Europe" or "some parts of the USA" is surely a little cheeky. You may be using POTS or ISDN modems, but the Scottish central belt has had ADSL, SDSL and cable internet for some years. You don't have to go to the USA or continental Europe for either of these.

A quick look at the US Time Warner website reveals that their 2.5Mbs cable internet service costs "from" $45 (roughly £30) per month. Are you really paying more than £30 per month for dialup? Perhaps for ISDN "dialup" but not for POTS dialup, surely.

However, it is indeed true that the Time Warner (TW) cable service is a lot faster than a typical UK 0.5Mbs ADSL service -- but it's not cheaper. The latter was about £25 per month last I looked. However, the TW service is faster and is also a little cheaper than Telewest's 1Mbs cable internet service (Blue Yonder) which costs £35 per month if you also subscribe to their (relatively cheap) phone service. My friends in continental Europe are paying similar (but slightly higher) prices for services up to 2-3Mbs. How do I know? I have just asked them!

You can get 2Mbs SDSL in the central belt, but it's expensive -- circa £300 per month -- and it's mainly targetted at business users. NB that's SDSL not ADSL, so upload is also at 2MBs, and the price includes more than you would get with a bog-standard home ADSL service, but it sure ain't cheap!

If one moves away from home use to business use, then the picture changes again. At work, I have had a 100Mbs connection to my desktop for several years -- can't remember exactly how many years -- and I could probably have 1Gbs (ie 1000Mbs) if I really wanted it (or needed it) because there is a 1Gbs connection just along the corridor -- ie within 30 metres of my desk.

Come on Mr P -- tell us what the gameplan is! Or, are you another Heblix? (Just joking about the latter -- I'm sure you're not.) I may sound very critical in what I've written above. That wasn't my intention -- I just wanted to emphasize that I agree with the last phrase in your post: :cool:


we all just need to open our eyes a little more and stop believing every word that certain organisations say
One other comment on satellite: although the huge latency makes it poor for general use, it could be very handy for anyone who uploads a lot of data to a remote website. I am thinking of Bill and his hundreds of wonderful photos of Caithness!

[jjc]

OMG!!

As somebody who takes his ADSL connection somewhat for granted, it never occured to me that Bill might be uploading all those photos via a 56k modem... ouch! :~(

Bill, please say it ain't so...

[Anonymous]

hehe, nope not 56k, we are on a slightly better connex, ISDN.

Unfortunatly we're limited to 64k as 128k connex is far too expensive.

Currently, we're paying:

BT : £26 per month, for home highway, on top of standard rental

ISP : £22 per month, for 300 hours of dial-up at 64k

Not only are we limited to 64k, we're also limited to 3 hours connex at a time.

3 hours is not even enough time for us to do a verification of all the files on the site, never mind upload them all.

We've had loads of people requesting that we add more broadband style content, like MP3s and video (and bigger photos) but as I'm sure you can see, there is no way we are in a position to do this as much as we would like, even though our webhosts have just granted us a much bigger bandwidth limit and much more web space.

It seems that they, like most others, are preparing for the onslaught of broadband content online, but here in the Highlands, as in many other parts of the UK, it seems that we have been forgotten by the people we pay our taxes to.

**TOUNGE FIRMLY IN CHEEK**

I really love to see they way the LECs and HIE are falling over themselves to get broadband solutions to the least populated parts of their area. I'm soo glad they;ve decided to ignore the large population/business centers of the highlands and instead concentrate their efforts to get Auld Chock and his croft on some pokey wee island all wired up for some nice shiney new broadband.

**REMOVED AGAIN**

HIE had hundreds of thousands of pounds to spend to try and convince us all to get Satellite Broadband, how many exchanges could they have paid for to be upgraded for adsl, and how many from the budget of their current advertising campaign could now have been upgraded.

I wish they would just bite the bullet and upgrade mabee 3 exchanges per year, until all possible exchanges were complete. When they were left with the unusual small pockets of population in the really really remote parts of the Highlands, then start talking about Satellite and Wireless.

After all which parts of the Highlands would see the most benefit?

The likes of Wick and Thurso or wee tiny island populations who have far more pressing problems than the lack of broadband internet.

[Colin Manson]

One other comment on satellite: although the huge latency makes it poor for general use, it could be very handy for anyone who uploads a lot of data to a remote website. I am thinking of Bill and his hundreds of wonderful photos of Caithness!

It wouldn't be any better for uploading the website, there is too much communication to do between the client and the server, the upload on the satellite isn't that great either and with the 800ms latency compared to 50-60ms with ISDN. So for single large files it might be a wee bit better (I think the system HIE were talking about was 400k down and 128k up) but for webpages and 70k pictures there is no advantage. Well unless you think a £900 installation fee and £60 per month is an advantage. [evil]

Cheers
Colin

[Anonymous]

Thanks, P, for all that info. I really learned things.

But while you guys are posting technical arguements on here, are you perhaps forgetting that most internet users treat the PC like the phone?

They log on, expect to connect because they are paying for a service, but neither know nor care how it works.

I pay BT for a service which they provide very inadequately. I have signed up for Broadband on principle, but doubt if the service will be any better than the current set-up, because it doesn't pay BT or any other provider to service the North of Scotland.

If a Broadband campaign for Caithness, and/or the Highlands generally, is to gain popular support and be successful, the marketing has got to be consumer/technophobe based. The technical means by which the service is provided is not necessarily relevant to public demand for the facility. Indeed, too much technical debate is off-putting.

[Colin Manson]

thegardener,

I think your point is valid but I also think that you are incorrect about "most internet users" I get asked lots of questions about broadband and the internet and people are not so shy about the technology. If fact most of the really good points I have heard have come from non-technical people.

People realise that it's more than just a speed increase, they know what 'always on' means and they are delighted by the fact that they would get full use of their telephone again.

I think that although the 'technical means' might be too much information for the 'average user' they realise that it is important because it affects the type of service that they are going to receive. It's simple; it all comes down to cost in the end.

From my point of view this is like changing from the water pump in the garden to a modern plumbing system, so do you want Oil, Gas, Electric etc. There are advantages and disadvantages to every different system and broadband is no different. People who want to make an educated choice will read up about the subject and choose wisely.

Cheers
Colin Manson

[DrSzin]

One other comment on satellite: although the huge latency makes it poor for general use, it could be very handy for anyone who uploads a lot of data to a remote website. I am thinking of Bill and his hundreds of wonderful photos of Caithness!

It wouldn't be any better for uploading the website, there is too much communication to do between the client and the server, the upload on the satellite isn't that great either and with the 800ms latency compared to 50-60ms with ISDN. So for single large files it might be a wee bit better (I think the system HIE were talking about was 400k down and 128k up) but for webpages and 70k pictures there is no advantage. Well unless you think a £900 installation fee and £60 per month is an advantage. [evil]

Cheers
Colin
Sorry, I should have been more specific. My quarter-thought-out suggestion was to zip/tar a large set of photos into a single file and upload that. However, even large sets (such as the 34 primary school photos posted yesterday) would result in a zip/tar file of only 2 or 3 MB, so any gain would be minimal and the huge latency of satellite would cause a lot of hassle for site admin.

OK, Colin I agree with you. Satellite is no good because:
<ul>It's slow (much slower than existing ADSL & cable services);
It's very expensive;
It has huge latency.[/list] End of story.

P claims that ADSL is not the answer because there's lots of aluminium cabling in the local loop. Can anyone confirm that? As far as I understand it, aluminium cabling is not a problem per se; the problem is that aluminium is more prone to corrosion. If this is indeed the case, and the local loop aluminium is old, then perhaps Hydro is the only game in town at present.

I worry that P stands for P(ie) in the Sky...

[rbadesha]

I personally recommend that you consider Tiscali Broadband. Here is a link to sign up for their broadband and FREE telephone cheap rate service:

http://www.tiscali-network.com/inet/services

It uses your existing BT line, however the cost are cheaper. :D

[Broadband4Caithness]

If you want to know the best offers for Broadband then please check my website for more info.

www.broadband4caithness.co.uk

If you order through myself for Tiscali then you can contact myself and I can track your order incase of any problems occur.

Also If you want to know if your line is ok for ADSL then please email me with the subject of "Line Test" and I will reply as soon as I can to advise you of the results.

[Geo]

I was put off Tiscali Broadband by the amount of very poor customer reviews I have read.