View Full Version : Should Scotland Be An Independent Country?
Michael Dennis
13-Mar-17, 21:35
The time has come to ask the question again. What are your thoughts on today's announcement?
Aye? Naw? Or Mibbies Aye Mibbies Naw?
NAW the snp had their chance, they have broken the Police, the Fire Service, Nursing, and Education, need I go on?
The Horseman
14-Mar-17, 01:50
Nicola has announced her intention to be independent.....she says give her a bit over a year, and she can do it. Onwards and upwards/downwards....?
And will Sir Sean be able to give money officially, or will he have to 'slide it in the Back Door'?
Win/Win situation really...
Independence Yes: Goal Achieved
Independence No: A better deal for Scotland from Brexit thanks to all the promises made to ensure a No vote.
Win/Win situation really...
Independence Yes: Goal Achieved
Independence No: A better deal for Scotland from Brexit thanks to all the promises made to ensure a No vote.
Aye, right, Alrock. We've already seen how much Westminster promises are worth when the time comes to put their actions where their words were.
Michael Dennis
14-Mar-17, 02:54
True Alrock but I would rather a resignation from May when she loses rather than Nicola.
Didn't know Sean was into slipping it in the back door Horseman :lol:
What was it in the words of Tracy Ullman ... "If she wants independence, I will make her head independent from her body" - even a Yes voter like me had to laugh at that one.
Stargazer
14-Mar-17, 19:02
I'm not sure what the First Minister is offering. She appears to have linked the independence referendum to some vague measurement of how hard a Brexit has been negotiated in two years time.
The Prime Minister said Brexit means Brexit so whether it's hard, soft or in between is neither here nor there.
So come on Nicola, I'm ready to vote now. Why have an extended agony for another two years!
NAW the snp had their chance, they have broken the Police, the Fire Service, Nursing, and Education, need I go on?
Seems like they are getting another chance.
cptdodger
15-Mar-17, 12:45
So, when is Sturgeon actually going to start running the country ? 2018? 19? 20? I do hope she is paying for this ridiculous farce out of her own pocket, she gets paid enough.
I'm not worried either way (not much!). We all know that an Independence referendum in Scotland is a 'once in a generation' thing and I have since learned that in Scotland, this means that because the bairns mature so fast, this is every 3 to 4 years. So hey, it doesn't matter which way it goes 'cos as sure as eggs is eggs, (oh no, don't mention eggs!), another one will soon come along again and I reckon at this rate, there are quite a few more yet to be fitted in before I'm pushing up the daisies. :lol:
So, when is Sturgeon actually going to start running the country ? 2018? 19? 20? I do hope she is paying for this ridiculous farce out of her own pocket, she gets paid enough.
So when is Theresa May actually going to start running the country? 2018? 19? 20? I hope she's paying for this ridiculous [Brexit] farce out of her own pocket, she gets paid enough. That sounds just as logical as your remark, cptdodger.
Neither of them are one man bands....because if they were, the UK and Scotland would both be dictatorships. Both of them have a parliament which has to agree the bills they put forward, ministers, who share the load of running the country on the lines dictated by the bills, advisors who offer possibilities for policies and the impact on the economy/population, and civil servants to do the work of implementing the policies they, along with their respective cabinets, have decided to present for action.
Scotland is being run pretty well, imo, although I don't agree with all the SG does......, but you can't deny that there are currently seven bills going through Holyrood, or that there was debate on around 86 bills in the last Parliament, despite having the first indyref taking up, by your way of thinking, all the time from 2012 to 2014.
If you actually believe that Nicola Sturgeon is personally responsible for everything done in Holyrood....and don't believe that Theresa May is personally responsible for everything which goes on in Westminster....then I guess you believe that Scottish women are very much superior to Scottish men, who have never been held personally responsible for running the country(probably because they are not expected to multi-task).....and superior to their English equivalents. :roll:
I think the prime-minister should get on with the day job and the Brexit negotiations instead of obsessing about another Scottish independence referendum.
Mr P Cannop
17-Mar-17, 08:25
aye i think scotland so go it alone
How would we finance it?
Tax the rich!
"The rich" will be everyone who pays any tax.
Tax the rich!
"The rich" will be everyone who pays any tax.
do you mean personal taxation or from industry taxation?
Obviously all people pay tax, but the oil revenue is basically wiped out and then there is all the other major business (finance etc) that have said they will look to relocate from an indepandant Scotland.
You are of course correct, the people of Scotland will be taxed out of their backsides to pay for the NATS dream of FREEDOM all the while desperately trying to get back into a Brussels controlled union which will see us forced to adopt all the rules and regs that any new member state faces.
Hannah Faulkner
17-Mar-17, 14:07
The SIS and MI5 won't let that happen....they had tactically divided the nations resources that make the decision unsustainable
You are of course correct, the people of Scotland will be taxed out of their backsides to pay for the NATS dream of FREEDOM all the while desperately trying to get back into a Brussels controlled union which will see us forced to adopt all the rules and regs that any new member state faces.
Hey, no worries! All those rich and famous ex-pat Scots who live in other places like err... England will come flooding back to pay their whack and we'll all be fine. I expect we're all looking forward so much to joining the euro, aren't we?
You are of course correct, the people of Scotland will be taxed out of their backsides to pay for the NATS dream of FREEDOM all the while desperately trying to get back into a Brussels controlled union which will see us forced to adopt all the rules and regs that any new member state faces.
Hey, no worries! All those rich and famous ex-pat Scots who live in other places like err... England will come flooding back to pay their whack and we'll all be fine. I expect we're all looking forward so much to joining the euro, aren't we?
I cannot wait.
On the bright side, there are lots of nuclear jobs in England coming up soon(ish)
I think the prime-minister should get on with the day job and the Brexit negotiations instead of obsessing about another Scottish independence referendum.
Our prime minister wants to get on with the job. The Scots first minister has tried to chuck a spanner in the works - hopefully - without success.
I am an Englishman (if you call Liverpool England) who has lived and served in Scotland. I will be happy for the Scots to have what they wish. But is independence a viable proposition for you? If it is then lets get on with it, get all Scottish MPs out of the English Parliament. All our bases out of Scotland and secure our borders. Let Scotland finance itself and get on with it's life and let England get on with it's life. WE wont have to listen to N S, and you wont have to listen to us. I can assure you that that is the opinion of the majority of English - WE are fed up hearing about it. IT IS IMPORTANT to Scotland. From the many friends I have in Scotland I believe the Majority of Scots feel the same way as I do. I may be wrong - but this is not an argument - Just me speaking from the heart for two countries I love.
Our prime minister wants to get on with the job. The Scots first minister has tried to chuck a spanner in the works - hopefully - without success.
I am an Englishman (if you call Liverpool England) who has lived and served in Scotland. I will be happy for the Scots to have what they wish. But is independence a viable proposition for you? If it is then lets get on with it, get all Scottish MPs out of the English Parliament. All our bases out of Scotland and secure our borders. Let Scotland finance itself and get on with it's life and let England get on with it's life. WE wont have to listen to N S, and you wont have to listen to us. I can assure you that that is the opinion of the majority of English - WE are fed up hearing about it. IT IS IMPORTANT to Scotland. From the many friends I have in Scotland I believe the Majority of Scots feel the same way as I do. I may be wrong - but this is not an argument - Just me speaking from the heart for two countries I love.
In terms of defence, I believe an attack on England would be an attack on Scotland. An independent Scotland would be part of a greater international military force which would be there to preserve our basic freedoms and democracy. If the fight is justified then I am sure Scotland will be up for the fight. But all too often in recent years Scotland has been dragged into wars that have been illegal and internationally provocative. This has increased the risk to Scotland and not diminished it.
In terms of defence, I believe an attack on England would be an attack on Scotland. An independent Scotland would be part of a greater international military force which would be there to preserve our basic freedoms and democracy. If the fight is justified then I am sure Scotland will be up for the fight. But all too often in recent years Scotland has been dragged into wars that have been illegal and internationally provocative. This has increased the risk to Scotland and not diminished it.
what military would be protecting Scotland if we were attacked?
what military would be protecting Scotland if we were attacked?
If we are members of an international military alliance then an attack on an individul member is an attack on all the members, no?
If we are members of an international military alliance then an attack on an individul member is an attack on all the members, no?
And will we be members of this alliance automatically then as a new nation?
or is it another apply and pay through the nose scenario?
And will we be members of this alliance automatically then as a new nation?
or is it another apply and pay through the nose scenario?
In the short term, I don't know, it may be NATO, it may not be NATO but I'm pretty certain we would become automatic members of NATO if Scotland expressed a desire to do so. There doesn't seem to be much enforcement about not paying 2% of GDP on defence, pretty sure it is just a recommendation.
In the long term, now that the UK is leaving the EU, the last major obstacle to an EU army will disappear.
Perhaps there will be an EU army
But why would they defend Scotland when we are not an EU member?
Perhaps there will be an EU army
But why would they defend Scotland when we are not an EU member?
I'm pretty sure an independent Scotland would be an EU member if there was an application. And there would be very little in the way of negotiation so it would be more or less fast tracked.
I'm pretty sure an independent Scotland would be an EU member if there was an application. And there would be very little in the way of negotiation so it would be more or less fast tracked.
thats not what was said previously
and who is to say all nations will vote us in
never assume anything to assume makes an ass out of u and me
Our prime minister wants to get on with the job. The Scots first minister has tried to chuck a spanner in the works - hopefully - without success.
I am an Englishman (if you call Liverpool England) who has lived and served in Scotland. I will be happy for the Scots to have what they wish. But is independence a viable proposition for you? If it is then lets get on with it, get all Scottish MPs out of the English Parliament. All our bases out of Scotland and secure our borders. Let Scotland finance itself and get on with it's life and let England get on with it's life. WE wont have to listen to N S, and you wont have to listen to us. I can assure you that that is the opinion of the majority of English - WE are fed up hearing about it. IT IS IMPORTANT to Scotland. From the many friends I have in Scotland I believe the Majority of Scots feel the same way as I do. I may be wrong - but this is not an argument - Just me speaking from the heart for two counties I love.
Depends if you can call a spanner in the works the prospect that any EU Brexit deal based on any Scottish resources would be null and void if we voted for independence. I guess May would be more sensible not to use them as bargaining chips.....just in case.
Why wouldn't independence be a viable proposition for us if it is a viable proposition for Malta, New Zealand, Ireland etc? That's a serious question, btw. What is so different with countries smaller than or the same size as Scotland that they can be independent and we can't?
We produce enough to feed ourselves, so we won't starve, though admittedly it wouldn't be the most exciting diet.....we produce enough electricity to power more homes and businesses than we have in the country, so we won't freeze or stumble about in the dark...we have a superabundance of water, so won't go thirsty any time soon.....we have a better overseas balance of trade by a country mile than England does......we wouldn't have to pay a large chunk of our income to fund general UK services, many of which are already duplicated in Scotland and paid for from Scotland's block grant.
For example, those General UK services include a share of the likes of maintenance costs for the likes of Buck House and Westminster Palace, the maintenance of around 1300 legislators in both houses of Parliament and 425,000 civil servants, and the likes of the Olympic Games in London...while at the same time, out of our pocket money, Scotland funds and maintains its own Parliament and Parliament building, and maintains its own legislators and civil service, plus pays out for our colonial Scottish Office....it funds the maintenance of Holyrood Palace, where the Queen regularly spends a week a year,in fact it funds the maintenance of all Scottish Historic Buildings...and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow received not a penny of funding from the UK purse. It costs nearly £10 billion in administration costs to run Westminster departments...ten of which are, to a greater or lesser extent duplicated in the Scottish Government, and which, as a result, deal primarily with English versions of the competencies devolved to Scotland. We get precious few jobs in Scotland for our share of UK General Services and Government Administration costs, just as we get precious little benefit from our share of UK Debt Interest and our share of MOD expenditure.
How are you going to take all your bases out of Scotland, out of interest? Are you going to bodily remove Fort George, Faslane, Kinloss, Leuchars, Lossie etc, etc (although, to give Westminster its due, it is selling as many Scottish military bases off as fast as it can...probably to spite us :)). You can certainly take whichever servicemen want to go, and whatever equipment we can't claim as part of the distribution of assets, and you can have Trident with a red, white and blue bow on it as soon as you like.... but you can't take bases...else we will simply take some of those in England instead. What do people down South think would happen if we did leave the UK...do they really think we'd take a share of £1.3+ trillion in debt we had no hand in racking up.... and depart happily with nothing else....really and truly? The only way we'd leave with nothing is if we took no debt, though it would be a long time before the rest of the UK could stop funding state and private pensions, in the same way as they do now for people who have left the country and settled elsewhere.
I don't for a second think it will be easy...but then it wasn't easy for very many of us living in the UK before Brexit...and is likely to be worse once it actually starts to bite...and I really can't see that we could make a worse job of looking after Scotland than the Westminster Parliament has. After 308 years of Union, if we are in an economic and social mess, who is to blame for that anyway....certainly not a Scottish Government(any Scottish Government of any colour since 1999,tbh) because no Scottish Government has had the tools to make a difference. Even after the much vaunted and hyped Scotland Act 2016 is completely in force, we will have direct control of 40.9% of our income(about 12% more of Scotland's income than was spent in/for Scotland in 1921...and around 10% less than was spent in 1952-53) with which we are expected to cover 63.1% of expenditure on the devolved competencies and some welfare benefits. We are getting some very limited by Westminster borrowing powers.....but unlike Westminster, we can't use those borrowing powers to pay for day to day spending.
Why do you think we couldn't do at least as well as we do now if we don't have to follow Westminster policies, have access to all the same economic tools available to Westminster, don't have to make payments to General (once Imperial) Services to help fund what is in effect, since EVEL, an English Parliament mostly dealing with English issues and laws?
thats not what was said previously
and who is to say all nations will vote us in
never assume anything to assume makes an ass out of u and me
There is no indication from the EU that they would veto an application from Scotland. As Scotland already ticks all the criteria for membership and it is already in the EU as part of the UK then I have no reason to doubt or assume otherwise. Scotland would be about mid table in terms of strength of GDP so I'm sure they would welcome us.
There is no indication from the EU that they would veto an application from Scotland. As Scotland already ticks all the criteria for membership and it is already in the EU as part of the UK then I have no reason to doubt or assume otherwise. Scotland would be about mid table in terms of strength of GDP so I'm sure they would welcome us.
There is no indication from the EU that they would approve us, or fast track either.
We will not be a member of the EU before we could gain independence from the UK.
In all likelihood we would gain membership (but no guarantee) but we will need to adopt all the the rules and regs and currency.
Also we will need to have a referendum to gain membership.
And just because you are a YES voter, it does not necessarily follow that you are pro EU.
I know some dies in the wool Nats that voted to leave EU.
There is no indication from the EU that they would approve us, or fast track either.
We will not be a member of the EU before we could gain independence from the UK.
In all likelihood we would gain membership (but no guarantee) but we will need to adopt all the the rules and regs and currency.
Also we will need to have a referendum to gain membership.
And just because you are a YES voter, it does not necessarily follow that you are pro EU.
I know some dies in the wool Nats that voted to leave EU.
There is a huge body of evidence to say the EU would accept us. I've seen many interviews on TV and social media from key European statespersons to say they are supportive but there is nothing we can do until we get that Yes vote. There have already been behind the scenes negotiations to put Scotland is a transitional status where it will maintain access to single market before full membership is approved.
There is a huge body of evidence to say the EU would accept us. I've seen many interviews on TV and social media from key European statespersons to say they are supportive but there is nothing we can do until we get that Yes vote. There have already been behind the scenes negotiations to put Scotland is a transitional status where it will maintain access to single market before full membership is approved.
So nothing has been set in stone then, membership wise.
Exactly as I said.
Negotiations count for nothing, agreements do.
I could negotiate with you to buy my bicycle £100m but until you sign a contract to do so then it means nothing whatsoever.
So nothing has been set in stone then, membership wise.
Exactly as I said.
Negotiations count for nothing, agreements do.
I could negotiate with you to buy my bicycle £100m but until you sign a contract to do so then it means nothing whatsoever.
Negotiations mean a lot. The whole basis of democracy is on discussion. Even a verbal contract has some basis.
Negotiations mean a lot. The whole basis of democracy is on discussion. Even a verbal contract has some basis.
Only if you have recorded it or have independent witness
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