Insulting my husband

[sorghaghtanibeki]

I am happily married to bekisman, he has just shown me a post from Squidge #28 on obama tread

"Oh! you want an answer do you Bekisman?

As it has been made abundently clear time and time again that a second referendum will only happen when and if a majority of Scottish Voters want one. in that circumstance I would be very surprised if Westminster witheld permission for Scotland to hold another referendum as that would probably INCREASE the support for Independence rather than reduce it.

By the way, this "Mrs Murrell" stuff betrays your sexist attitude to women in positions of authority and perhaps even in society in general."

She has accused my husband of having a sexist attitude to women in positions of authority and society in general. This is a personal attack, I do not on to come this site because of fighting, but my husband has been happily married to me for 38 years and does not disrespect anyone, is Squidge happily married? my married name is the one I choose, not the one I was given, it is my personal preference, my husband was very respectful for MRS Thatcher (her husbands name), MRS Hilary Clinton Frau Angela Merkel, Indira Gandhi even Mrs Emmeline Pankhurst, and many many others this is not disrespect.

[rob murray]

I am happily married to bekisman, he has just shown me a post from Squidge #28 on obama tread

"Oh! you want an answer do you Bekisman?

As it has been made abundently clear time and time again that a second referendum will only happen when and if a majority of Scottish Voters want one. in that circumstance I would be very surprised if Westminster witheld permission for Scotland to hold another referendum as that would probably INCREASE the support for Independence rather than reduce it.

By the way, this "Mrs Murrell" stuff betrays your sexist attitude to women in positions of authority and perhaps even in society in general."

She has accused my husband of having a sexist attitude to women in positions of authority and society in general. This is a personal attack, I do not on to come this site because of fighting, but my husband has been happily married to me for 38 years and does not disrespect anyone, is Squidge happily married? my married name is the one I choose, not the one I was given, it is my personal preference, my husband was very respectful for MRS Thatcher (her husbands name), MRS Hilary Clinton Frau Angela Merkel, Indira Gandhi even Mrs Emmeline Pankhurst, and many many others this is not disrespect.

I never knew she was Mrs Murrell until not so long ago, obviously doesnt want to use her husbands surname, fair enough thats her choice, probably for political reasons as he's a highhoncho in SNP as well. Agree sexist accusatations, the shot gun statement " perhaps in society in general" ! is over the top hysterical nonsense, as the vast majority of married women use husbands surname or combine both, and yes some use their own, what ever suits I suppose

[marwill]

To anyone interested:

(Definition of sexist from the Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)

sexist
noun
Grammar
Sexist languageSexist language is language which excludes one sex or the other, or which suggests that one sex is superior to the other. For example, traditionally, he, him and his were used to refer to both sexes, male and female, but nowadays many people feel that this makes she, her and hers seem less important or inferior. It is best to avoid sexist language in order not to offend people. …
He, she, him, her, his, hersIn writing, we can use (s)he, he/she, him/her or his/her to refer to both sexes at the same time. When speaking formally, we say he or she and his or her: …
Suffixes -man, -master -woman and -essMany people feel that traditional uses of the suffixes -man, -master, -woman and -ess are sexist and outdated, so alternative, neutral forms are often used (m = male; f = female). …
Nouns, adjectives and verbs with manSome nouns, adjectives and verbs which include man are considered sexist nowadays. We can often use neutral alternatives: …


Many females who are in 'professional' occupations, especially if started before they were married, opted to be known by their maiden name, but there is nothing sexist meant, if referred to by their married name. In law they are both accepted.

[rob murray]

To anyone interested:

(Definition of sexist from the Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)

sexist
noun
Grammar
Sexist languageSexist language is language which excludes one sex or the other, or which suggests that one sex is superior to the other. For example, traditionally, he, him and his were used to refer to both sexes, male and female, but nowadays many people feel that this makes she, her and hers seem less important or inferior. It is best to avoid sexist language in order not to offend people. …
He, she, him, her, his, hersIn writing, we can use (s)he, he/she, him/her or his/her to refer to both sexes at the same time. When speaking formally, we say he or she and his or her: …
Suffixes -man, -master -woman and -essMany people feel that traditional uses of the suffixes -man, -master, -woman and -ess are sexist and outdated, so alternative, neutral forms are often used (m = male; f = female). …
Nouns, adjectives and verbs with manSome nouns, adjectives and verbs which include man are considered sexist nowadays. We can often use neutral alternatives: …


Many females who are in 'professional' occupations, especially if started before they were married, opted to be known by their maiden name, but there is nothing sexist meant, if referred to by their married name. In law they are both accepted.

Thanks for the clarification, had to read the definition 2 or times, as I find grammer hard enough to understand at times. So Ms Sturgeon / Mrs Murrell are acceptable terms of address with no sexist underlay nor intent.

[Alrock]

Thanks for the clarification, had to read the definition 2 or times, as I find grammer hard enough to understand at times. So Ms Sturgeon / Mrs Murrell are acceptable terms of address with no sexist underlay nor intent.


Might not be "Sexist" by definition but disrespectful & confusing.
Sturgeon is the name she uses & the name she should be refered as.

No different to refering to the Queen as "Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha", something I feel many Monachists would fing offensive.

Besides, until this thread I was wondering who this Mrs Murrell was, so any point that was trying to be made failed completely.

[squidge]

Ok let's explain this. A persons name iidentity if you like - is not what someone else chooses for them. It is what they choose for themselves. Women,the world over use their own name in the 21st century, many for professional reasons. That's the reason why it is not disrespectful or sexist to call Mrs Thatcher, Mrs Thatcher, Mrs Clinton, Mrs Clinton or Mrs Bekisman, Mrs Bekisman or for that matter, Mrs Lyons, Mrs Lyons. That is because that is what they all chose to call themselves.

When a woman uses her own name, whether in a professional capacity of a personal capacity, to then persist in calling her by her married name is not only rude and ignorant. It is an attempt to demean her role and achievements by referencing her role solely in relation to her husband as his wife, despite her using her own name. It is dismissive of any woman as a woman in her own right.

THAT is what is sexist about it.

I'm perfectly happy to receive sorghaghtanibeki's assurance that Beks is a fine upstanding man without a sexist bone in his body and that he didn't realise the implications of his post. I get that, but if you engage in sexist behaviour or sexist banter or conversation then you should expect to be called out on it. If you don't want to give the impression that you are sexist, don't do it. It's not rocket science.

[bekisman]

Blinking heck squidge; calm down! Honestly do you really think I would "attempt to demean her role and achievements"? Seems to me that the main 'achievement' was to viciously split the Scottish Nation.
OK you are English born and bred, but as a member of the UK you have the democratic right to stand up and protect your heroine - my comment is not sexist and I appreciate your backtracking in now accepting that you understand by my wife's assurance I do not have a sexist bone in my body and after living with me (happily) for 38 years would kind of nail your knee jerk reaction well and truly.
I am interested in "It is an attempt to demean her role and achievements by referencing her role solely in relation to her husband as his wife, despite her using her own name. It is dismissive of any woman as a woman in her own right." come come my dear, in no way was I demeaning this female by relating her to her husband, my God, where the hell did you get that from? Her husband is a person of standing in his own right. However, your mahatma is destroying this Country.. and as Willie Rennie said during 'The Leaders Debate" in reference to 'her' "we want to stay in the UK. Respect the result! I would even go as far as saying you are anti-democratic" - Did you watch this squidge?

[squidge]

Just cos you don't get it Beks doesn't mean it is not so. I'm sure that now you understand, you will think the next time you go to do it - my dear!

I am not entirely clear what my place of birth or nationality is to do with anything, nor her -or my- politics. Just cos someone disagrees with you politically or was born in a different place doesn't mean they should accept sexist behaviour or comments does it.

I'm not backtracking Beks. I have explained why your comment was sexist and Why I have highlighted that. Everyday sexism is not ok. Of course, I don't know you only by what you post, your wife obviously does and I'm happy to accept that you didn't understand the Sexist nature of your post and are really the wonderful human being she says you are. Why would I do otherwise?

As for heroine lol - I have written a little bit this year about the sort of women that inspire me. It has been well received too. Want me to paste it here so you can have a read?

[rob murray]

Just cos you don't get it Beks doesn't mean it is not so. I'm sure that now you understand, you will think the next time you go to do it - my dear!

I am not entirely clear what my place of birth or nationality is to do with anything, nor her -or my- politics. Just cos someone disagrees with you politically or was born in a different place doesn't mean they should accept sexist behaviour or comments does it.

I'm not backtracking Beks. I have explained why your comment was sexist and Why I have highlighted that. Everyday sexism is not ok. Of course, I don't know you only by what you post, your wife obviously does and I'm happy to accept that you didn't understand the Sexist nature of your post and are really the wonderful human being she says you are. Why would I do otherwise?

As for heroine lol - I have written a little bit this year about the sort of women that inspire me. It has been well received too. Want me to paste it here so you can have a read?

Can I say that to me Golf clubs, with men only memberships are blantly sexist and discriminatory as are all similar organisations who promote such practices, does WFI admit male members, if not why not, and if not is, WFI sexist as well and no better than golf clubs etc ?

[squidge]

You could argue that WFI is sexist because they don't admit men as members and many have done so. That does, however ignore the fact that we don't live in an equal society. Men are, as a whole, not discriminated against in our society today. Women are.

If you remember why WFI was set up in the first place it becomes apparent why there is a need for a safe space for women to discuss politics and to challenge those in the media to include women's voices. In the early days before the referendum the voices on the tv, radio, papers were overwhelmingly male. In politics in general voices are overwhelmingly male. We do a bit better in Scotland right enough, Ruth Davidson, kezia Dugdale and Nicola Sturgeon are helping that but ordinary women are still drowned out in the Political debate. I suppose the question is whether in a society that discriminates against women, is creating a space for women's voices to be heard discriminating against men?

Let me ask you a few questions Rob

When you post political opinions or engage in political debate do you get told to shut your mouth and get back to the kitchen where you belong?

When you raise issues of domestic violence do you get told that you are an example of why women get beaten and it's time your husband gave you a smack in the mouth to shut you up?

When you speak out against prostitution are you told that you are just jealous cos you're a fat ugly bloke and you wouldn't get anyone to pay YOU for sex?

When you stand up on political platforms or stand up for issues which are important to you do you receive threats of rape or sexual violence?

Extreme stuff but stuff which has happened to me and to many other women that I know in the run up to the referendum, the general election, the Scottish elections. This sort of stuff is happening today in the UK and in Scotland. Until it stops then there is absolutely a need for WFI type groups and the argument that by providing a voice for those drowned out by discrimination is discriminating against those who are doing the discriminating in the first place is not one that I agree with.

The Mrs Murrell nonsense is nowhere near the seriousness or the unpleasantness of the above and for the record I'm sure Beks doesn't indulge in any of the behaviour I have mentioned. It is true however that this type of casual everyday sexism is the foundation that allows behaviours like I described above to develop and continue. If we let it go without challenge we are never going to stop those seriously unpleasant comments or see equal representation in politics or the media.

That's why it's important to call it out.

[rob murray]

You could argue that WFI is sexist because they don't admit men as members and many have done so. That does, however ignore the fact that we don't live in an equal society. Men are, as a whole, not discriminated against in our society today. Women are.

If you remember why WFI was set up in the first place it becomes apparent why there is a need for a safe space for women to discuss politics and to challenge those in the media to include women's voices. In the early days before the referendum the voices on the tv, radio, papers were overwhelmingly male. In politics in general voices are overwhelmingly male. We do a bit better in Scotland right enough, Ruth Davidson, kezia Dugdale and Nicola Sturgeon are helping that but ordinary women are still drowned out in the Political debate. I suppose the question is whether in a society that discriminates against women, is creating a space for women's voices to be heard discriminating against men?

Let me ask you a few questions Rob

When you post political opinions or engage in political debate do you get told to shut your mouth and get back to the kitchen where you belong?

When you raise issues of domestic violence do you get told that you are an example of why women get beaten and it's time your husband gave you a smack in the mouth to shut you up?

When you speak out against prostitution are you told that you are just jealous cos you're a fat ugly bloke and you wouldn't get anyone to pay YOU for sex?

When you stand up on political platforms or stand up for issues which are important to you do you receive threats of rape or sexual violence?

Extreme stuff but stuff which has happened to me and to many other women that I know in the run up to the referendum, the general election, the Scottish elections. This sort of stuff is happening today in the UK and in Scotland. Until it stops then there is absolutely a need for WFI type groups and the argument that by providing a voice for those drowned out by discrimination is discriminating against those who are doing the discriminating in the first place is not one that I agree with.

The Mrs Murrell nonsense is nowhere near the seriousness or the unpleasantness of the above and for the record I'm sure Beks doesn't indulge in any of the behaviour I have mentioned. It is true however that this type of casual everyday sexism is the foundation that allows behaviours like I described above to develop and continue. If we let it go without challenge we are never going to stop those seriously unpleasant comments or see equal representation in politics or the media.

That's why it's important to call it out.

I accept the points you make Squidge and in a civilised society what you have listed is wholly barbaric and unacceptable, but disagree with your assertion that casual everyday sexism ie Ms Sturgeon or Mrs Murrell, is the foundation that" allows behaviours like I described above to develop and continue". Marwill made a good post on definition of sexism as above and summed it up : Many females who are in 'professional' occupations, especially if started before they were married, opted to be known by their maiden name, but there is nothing sexist meant, if referred to by their married name. In law they are both accepted". Are Bekisman, me and Marwill "sexist" ?

[Oddquine]

I am happily married to bekisman, he has just shown me a post from Squidge #28 on obama tread

"Oh! you want an answer do you Bekisman?

As it has been made abundently clear time and time again that a second referendum will only happen when and if a majority of Scottish Voters want one. in that circumstance I would be very surprised if Westminster witheld permission for Scotland to hold another referendum as that would probably INCREASE the support for Independence rather than reduce it.

By the way, this "Mrs Murrell" stuff betrays your sexist attitude to women in positions of authority and perhaps even in society in general."

She has accused my husband of having a sexist attitude to women in positions of authority and society in general. This is a personal attack, I do not on to come this site because of fighting, but my husband has been happily married to me for 38 years and does not disrespect anyone, is Squidge happily married? my married name is the one I choose, not the one I was given, it is my personal preference, my husband was very respectful for MRS Thatcher (her husbands name), MRS Hilary Clinton Frau Angela Merkel, Indira Gandhi even Mrs Emmeline Pankhurst, and many many others this is not disrespect.

What does happily married have to do with anything? I note you say my married name is the one I choose, not the one I was given, it is my personal preference. Would you be pleased if people continued to refer to you by your maiden name, despite knowing your personal preference? If not, why do you think it is acceptable that others don't get to be referred to under their preferred name because your husband decrees he doesn't have to take any notice of people's preferences?

I am no feminist, but if I had a career before I married, and that was the name by which I was well-known in my career circles, I would continue to use it in those circumstances. That would be MY personal preference, to use my maiden name if I was going to continue to pursue my career..and I would think it disrespectful if people,who knew that was my preference, took it upon themselves to ignore my wishes.

Would bekisman, do you think, if he had friends who married and the woman decided not to take her husband's surname, still insist on calling her by that surname anyway? Would he, if friends divorced, and the wife reverted to her Maiden surname, still insist on referring to her by her married surname? If he would be aware enough not to disrespect his friends by calling them by their married names, in all circumstances, as he knew and understood their personal preferences, why do you think he is not aware enough to do the same for others who make the same choices?

If he was introduced to Nicola Sturgeon, as Nicola Sturgeon, would he be crass enough to call her Mrs Murrell, to her face, for the rest of the conversation? If not, he was being sexist in referring to her as Mrs Murrell on here, in the context of posts which deal with her political outlook. If so, then he is an old-fashioned male who only allows others to choose their method of address if it is one of which he approves.

Either way, that is disrespectful.

[Bystander1]

Thats it then. Strathy man retreats behind the wife's skirt in the face of a bollocking from not one but two hysterical ould bats.
I know the world is going pearshaped but has this total nonsense got any place on a 'Politics' forum ?.
It would by more at home in the comedy section along with the wifie Murrel and her supporters.

[Oddquine]

Thats it then. Strathy man retreats behind the wife's skirt in the face of a bollocking from not one but two hysterical ould bats.
I know the world is going pearshaped but has this total nonsense got any place on a 'Politics' forum ?.
It would by more at home in the comedy section along with the wifie Murrel and her supporters.

Blame bekisman, as he was the one who got his wife riled up.

However, the objection to Ms Sturgeon being called Mrs Murrell (which I notice you do, even if you can't spell either Mrs or Murrell) is that it is a method of disparaging a woman and her achievements as an individual, in this case, her political ones. Do all of you calling Ms Sturgeon, Mrs Murrell, also call Harriet Harman, Mrs Dromey, when talking about her politics....or Yvette Cooper, Mrs Balls? When Lucy Frazer described Oliver Cromwell's sale of Scots into colonial slavery as "an answer to the West Lothian question" did you all shout in glee "Go, Mrs Leigh"? Do you all call Johan Lamont, Mrs Graham? Did you all insist on calling Shirley Williams, Mrs Neustadt when she remarried? When talking about Mary Wollstonecraft do you all say Mrs Godwin? And if not, why not?

Some people can't get over the fact that taking your husband's surname is traditional and not obligatory and women no longer have to be identified first and foremost, as their husband's wife........unless they choose to be so identified at all times.

[bekisman]

Just cos you don't get it Beks doesn't mean it is not so. I'm sure that now you understand, you will think the next time you go to do it - my dear!

I am not entirely clear what my place of birth or nationality is to do with anything, nor her -or my- politics. Just cos someone disagrees with you politically or was born in a different place doesn't mean they should accept sexist behaviour or comments does it.

I'm not backtracking Beks. I have explained why your comment was sexist and Why I have highlighted that. Everyday sexism is not ok. Of course, I don't know you only by what you post, your wife obviously does and I'm happy to accept that you didn't understand the Sexist nature of your post and are really the wonderful human being she says you are. Why would I do otherwise?

As for heroine lol - I have written a little bit this year about the sort of women that inspire me. It has been well received too. Want me to paste it here so you can have a read?Just got in, been busy mugging old ladies, and stealing kids lollipops - certainly 'The Scottish Play' Scene 1 comes immediately to mind! (Look it up). Squidge the "font of all knowledge" seems to ignorantly presume she is she knows more than the Cambridge University Press.. Hopefully she is not too obtuse to understand: "Sexist language is language which excludes one sex or the other, or which suggests that one sex is superior to the other" - how the how does she know what I meant - it is a presumption not justified. I call 'her' Mrs Murrell as I do not respect her (that is MY right), she has succeeded where no-one else has excelled; divided a proud nation, caused divisions between families, she does NOT represent Scotland, if she did she would accept the Will of the People and kick the idea of another referendum into the long grass, can she not accept NO means NO, she has the temerity to utter the absolutely ignorant assertions "I must try and convince those who voted no" Eh? .
Ideas above her station? one wonders..
Now Mrs Thatcher, I HAVE met her and admire her, I am certain if you trawl these august forums you will find countless horrible adjectives to describe Mrs Margaret Thatcher - it is ironic that Nicola used Mrs Thatcher as a template on her own journey!, nope, not to copy her but in her own words to stand up for woman. The real sexist nonsense directed to Mrs Thatcher was nothing in comparison.. I am pleased your Nicola has inspired you, but I am afraid there would be no chance of meeting with her; can't stand her..
But just to conclude for the meantime - I lead a very busy life. You are totally wrong and talking absolute twaddle in thinking what I said was sexist, you need to travel and get out more squidge!

[bekisman]

To anyone interested:

(Definition of sexist from the Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)

sexist
noun
Grammar
Sexist languageSexist language is language which excludes one sex or the other, or which suggests that one sex is superior to the other. For example, traditionally, he, him and his were used to refer to both sexes, male and female, but nowadays many people feel that this makes she, her and hers seem less important or inferior. It is best to avoid sexist language in order not to offend people. …
He, she, him, her, his, hersIn writing, we can use (s)he, he/she, him/her or his/her to refer to both sexes at the same time. When speaking formally, we say he or she and his or her: …
Suffixes -man, -master -woman and -essMany people feel that traditional uses of the suffixes -man, -master, -woman and -ess are sexist and outdated, so alternative, neutral forms are often used (m = male; f = female). …
Nouns, adjectives and verbs with manSome nouns, adjectives and verbs which include man are considered sexist nowadays. We can often use neutral alternatives: …


Many females who are in 'professional' occupations, especially if started before they were married, opted to be known by their maiden name, but there is nothing sexist meant, if referred to by their married name. In law they are both accepted.Thank you Marwill - but I think these excerpts from Cambridge University Press will no nothing to placate someone who thinks they can read people's minds, has a higher intellect, and gave me infractions a long time ago when a moderator, but then this is the person who is always, always right.. sigh...

[bekisman]

Thats it then. Strathy man retreats behind the wife's skirt in the face of a bollocking from not one but two hysterical ould bats.
I know the world is going pearshaped but has this total nonsense got any place on a 'Politics' forum ?.
It would by more at home in the comedy section along with the wifie Murrel and her supporters.oh come come bystander, "retreating behind the wife's skirt" nah, she was just jarred off with reading all this crap by these Politically Correct gals, and wanted to put her penny's worth in from a lady's point of view, and to mention in passing that I'm a jolly fine chap who she has lived with for 38 years without a single sexist bone in my body, she was wondering if the main protagonist was also happily married, so as to get an equality of view, and was astonished at the venom emanating from such a simple word(s) of mine "Mrs Murrell" Nope my 'Mrs' Mrs Becks, etc is a tough old gal, got honoured by the Royal Geographical Society for co-leading an Expedition in the jungles of Thailand/Burma, twice kayaked the 'world's toughest kayak race' 125miles non-stop, and loads of other things, so yes she does get exasperated by these delicate flowers that drop to the floor in mock horror when their leader (small l) is - in their small-world opinon is presumably - to them - slighted.. she finds it all rather delightful and entertaining, she can't come to the PC right now as she's doing her nails

[bekisman]

Might not be "Sexist" by definition but disrespectful & confusing.
Sturgeon is the name she uses & the name she should be refered as.

No different to refering to the Queen as "Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha", something I feel many Monachists would fing offensive.

Besides, until this thread I was wondering who this Mrs Murrell was, so any point that was trying to be made failed completely.delighted that you too find it not sexist, ta. Disrespectful? yep, well I don't respect her, so that follows. But at least I've brought to the fore who 'Mrs Murrell' is

[bekisman]

What does happily married have to do with anything? I note you say my married name is the one I choose, not the one I was given, it is my personal preference. Would you be pleased if people continued to refer to you by your maiden name, despite knowing your personal preference? If not, why do you think it is acceptable that others don't get to be referred to under their preferred name because your husband decrees he doesn't have to take any notice of people's preferences?

I am no feminist, but if I had a career before I married, and that was the name by which I was well-known in my career circles, I would continue to use it in those circumstances. That would be MY personal preference, to use my maiden name if I was going to continue to pursue my career..and I would think it disrespectful if people,who knew that was my preference, took it upon themselves to ignore my wishes.

Would bekisman, do you think, if he had friends who married and the woman decided not to take her husband's surname, still insist on calling her by that surname anyway? Would he, if friends divorced, and the wife reverted to her Maiden surname, still insist on referring to her by her married surname? If he would be aware enough not to disrespect his friends by calling them by their married names, in all circumstances, as he knew and understood their personal preferences, why do you think he is not aware enough to do the same for others who make the same choices?

If he was introduced to Nicola Sturgeon, as Nicola Sturgeon, would he be crass enough to call her Mrs Murrell, to her face, for the rest of the conversation? If not, he was being sexist in referring to her as Mrs Murrell on here, in the context of posts which deal with her political outlook. If so, then he is an old-fashioned male who only allows others to choose their method of address if it is one of which he approves.

Either way, that is disrespectful.You mention disrespect, but if I don't respect her, surely I would be a hypocrite otherwise ? This is terrible (much worse than mine!): http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/21/tories-and-rightwing-press-resort-to-sexist-sturgeon-jibes

[bekisman]

Anyway you lot have had your say and I have had mine - "Mrs Becks" won't start another thread, so let's get back to the POLITICS Thread?????

[squidge]

Whats interesting about about this discussion is that it is framed as being about Nicola Sturgeon when it is actually about attitudes, language, everyday sexism and all women but it doesn't suit people to understand that. And of course, it's always helpful to women to have sexism explained to them by a middle aged man whilst he resolutely stresses that he hasn't a sexist bone in his body. :roll: spot of irony in that somewhere but hey ho.

Also Beks what's with the "heroines" thing, I'm a grown up - I don't really have "heroines" and I tend to find that it's in the ordinary that extraordinary inspirational people are found. Don't you?

[caltonjock]

Women always have the last word which is why they make excellent managers