View Full Version : Discuss Scottish and Celtic history & culture with us!
I just love American websites about Scottish history & culture. :D
I spotted a news snippet posted by "Kat" from "SoCal" (Southern California, I guess):
Loss of Faith
Stirling University has announced that it is to scrap its honours degree course in religious education due to a steady decline in student numbers over the last ten years. The religious studies department will now be merged with modern languages and culture. Student numbers have halved to 20 over the last decade. Religious education courses at Glasgow and Edinburgh are supported by the Church of Scotland but Stirling had believed that their independence was a strength. A recent survey has shown that the number of people regularly attending Church of Scotland services has declined by 22% between 1995 and 2003 and attendance at Catholic churches has also fallen. These days, just over 11% of Scots attend church on an average Sunday.
(As far as I can make out, the story was written by the people at Rampant Scotland (http://www.rampantscotland.com/let050430.htm).)
In response:
And about the loss of faith: it is the last nation I would have suspected of losing religious faith. The Scots were always so religious (some could argue nearly fanatical) about their religion in the past. Curious development. As the religious movement in the US grows (or is being brought to our attention more and more in the news), it is interesting Scotland is going to other way.
See what I mean about two countries separated by what used to be a common religion? I am sure very few native Scots (or indeed other Western Europeans) would regard the decline in church attendances in Scotland as a curious development. Surely the US is the only "developed" or "western" country (supposedly) going the "other way" -- and that is the curious development IMHO.
Nice set of websites though. Very educational -- but not quite in the way intended I would guess. For me it is indeed educational: it helps me understand how Scotland, and indeed the rest of the world, is viewed from the United States.
FAO our American friends: this isn't an anti-American rant -- I love America & Americans, I just don't think in the same way as you guys, and I have a rather different world view. The latter point may be a good candidate for understatement of the week. :cool:
Keep up the good work -- you are doing a fantastic job. :D
Here are some crazy but true facts, Alba the Gaelic name for Scotland comes from Albion the Roman name for Britain which in turn is derived from the colour of the White cliffs of Dover in Latin.
So Scotland is named after an English geographical feature.
Whisky was first made by the arabs, as in al cohol
The bag pipes are a middle eastern invention.
Haggis was first brought into Britain by the Romans.
The kilt was first designed by an englishman.
And the Scot in scotland supposedly comes from an Egyptian princess
And Zero or '0', the usual score for Scotland in the World Cup final stages was invented by an Indian scholar...
So Scotland is named after an English geographical feature.
Whisky was first made by the arabs, as in al cohol
The bag pipes are a middle eastern invention.
Haggis was first brought into Britain by the Romans.
The kilt was first designed by an englishman.
And the Scot in scotland supposedly comes from an Egyptian princess
And Zero or '0', the usual score for Scotland in the World Cup final stages was invented by an Indian scholar...
All this really goes to show what an open nation Scotland has been through the centuries. We've travelled the world and had many visitors. Left our mark in far away places and evolved into what we are today by adopting the ideas of others. If it works, use it! You could say similar things about every country in the world.
Here are some crazy but true facts, Alba the Gaelic name for Scotland comes from Albion the Roman name for Britain which in turn is derived from the colour of the White cliffs of Dover in Latin.
So Scotland is named after an English geographical feature.
Whisky was first made by the arabs, as in al cohol
The bag pipes are a middle eastern invention.
Haggis was first brought into Britain by the Romans.
The kilt was first designed by an englishman.
And the Scot in scotland supposedly comes from an Egyptian princess
And Zero or '0', the usual score for Scotland in the World Cup final stages was invented by an Indian scholar...
Next you'll be telling us that Bonnie Prince Charlie was an Italian :-)
Next you'll be telling us that Bonnie Prince Charlie was an Italian :-)
I will tell you that but there is ying and yang here, I can also tell you that the present Duke of Cumberland is a German. An italian is the better of two weevils.
You took exception to an article posted by one of my members on my forum and apparently also to my response, which was MY experience when I was in Scotland as a uni student studying history. Perhaps you could look at it in that light. As for as the religious question: I was speaking from an historical persepctive, not a modern one. I'm sorry you didn't grasp that.
I didn't take exception to the article posted by Katrina. It's accepted practice to acknowledge your sources, and I was simply doing that as best I could. If you are a serious historian, then you will surely agree.
I didn't take exception to your response either. I was simply using it to illustrate a point I had made previously on a different thread. That's why I posted it here and not on your forum.
I know it was your experience. That's the point: very few Scots find it curious.
As for the historical aspect: religion has been dying for centuries in Western Europe. There has been the odd major blip here and there, and there are still some significant sectarian hotspots. But I don't think the inexorable decay of religion in Scotland is curious at all. It's the norm in this part of the world. Scotland is merely normal in that respect. Perhaps the surprising aspect is that it's taken so long.
Yes we will keep up the good work - and you keep up the good criticisms - perhaps if you get brave enough, you might even post it on my forum where all can read it and then we can disect your intentions and your perspectives!!
Brave enough? Ha, ha. Very funny. Dissect my intentions and perspectives? How can one possibly refuse an invitation as warm as enticing as that? ;)
Yes, Kat's post was from Scottie's Snippets. I know the man personally and he gave us permission to post excerpts of it on my forum. I gave the job to my lady, Katrina, who was born in Scotland and now lives in California (Yes, SoCal is southern CA). Very observant :)
My mention of Southern California was intended to be informative: nothing more, nothing less.
Serious history discussion (not this type of slam, barely disguised as "humour") is still welcome there.
I wasn't aware that I was being humorous. Thank you for the compliment. :D
Since you didn't dispute it, may I assume that you agree that the US and Scotland are two countries divided by what used to be a comon religion?
didn't take exception to the article posted by Katrina. It's accepted practice to acknowledge your sources, and I was simply doing that as best I could. If you are a serious historian, then you will surely agree.
I removed the invitation and other posts for the sake of peace. Clearly, there are some Scots who do not think anyone who has Scottish heritage or lives outside of Scotland now, can in any way - or should - discuss Scottish history or culture. You're right! We don't discuss modern Scots. We discuss the history of the country which we all love, because our families came over to another country - US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Aftrica, etc. - either very recently, or 200 or more years ago. We are mostly of Highland descent, and perhaps that's the issue - or the difference. I've run into this proprietary attitude of some Scots before. History isn't owned by anyone, and for those that have a love of that countries history, it is still very much a part of our lives and hearts.
I didn't take exception to your response either. I was simply using it to illustrate a point I had made previously on a different thread. That's why I posted it here and not on your forum.
So what is your point? American-Scots are funny, amusing creatures not at all like us native Scots? Perhaps we are different. I know I don't slam Scots for being "British" more than Scottish (some, anyway) on my forums. But some are and you know it. It is the tone of your post that irritates me. "Keep up the good work" wasn't sincere, it was critical. That's your choice. It's not my way. I wish I'd never responded at all.
I know it was your experience. That's the point: very few Scots find it curious.
I was speaking of the past...not the present. Scotland was one of the most staunchly Protestant nations after Knox. And sometimes a tad fanatical. There is still bigotry in Scotland towards Catholics. We find that very curious!?
As for the historical aspect: religion has been dying for centuries in Western Europe. There has been the odd major blip here and there, and there are still some significant sectarian hotspots. But I don't think the inexorable decay of religion in Scotland is curious at all. It's the norm in this part of the world. Scotland is merely normal in that respect. Perhaps the surprising aspect is that it's taken so long.
Well, perhaps that's true. I'm not sure. Curiously, it seems to be getting fanatical here! I'm distressed by it all.
[/quote]Brave enough? Ha, ha. Very funny. Dissect my intentions and perspectives? How can one possibly refuse an invitation as warm as enticing as that? ;)[/quote]
The invitation has been removed. Not a problem unless you are all ready a member, and in that case I hope you post there. Perhaps my comment was a little over-the-top, because I have run into the same attitude before. But my forums and my work are not representative of some Americans' who 'have a hobby with Scottish culture'. I don't wear the kilt except for very rare occassions. I don't play the bagpies or run around eating haggis! lol. I, and members of my forums, study it, read it and happen to write it - because that's my profession. I'm very familiar with it. I know it more than I know American history, because of my interest, heritage and my time in Scotland. That's what I was trying to get across in the invitation. A love of Scottish and Celtic history that could be shared.
It was a sincere offer and invitation, and it seems to have - amused you?
Since you didn't dispute it, may I assume that you agree that the US and Scotland are two countries divided by what used to be a comon religion?
Divided by a common religion? I'm not sure what you mean. Americans are many religions and many faiths. What we share with Scotland is Christianity in both the Protestant and Catholic versions. I would say what divides us is geopolitical, and nationalistic. You are now part of the British Empire (or what is left of it), and we are not. The religions are not what divide us. Appreciation for people of Scottish heritage appears to divide us. You think it's quaint, and curious and sometimes annoying. We love the country Scotland for what it is, and most especially, what it used to be. If that makes us (off-shore Scots) of Highland descent different and amusing, so be it. I experienced better reception on the Anglo forums! That, I think, says a lot about Scotland today.
I'll leave it at that and take my leave.
Gawd, and I thought I could be presumptuous at times. In fact, that's probably the most presumptuous post I've ever seen on here. :eyes
I don't suppose it's worth responding because he says he's gone. More's the pity. I read a couple of chapters of his online book earlier today and I thought they were quite good. We might have had a decent grown-up debate on all this if he'd stuck around. What was that about babies, rattles and prams?
Maybe I should follow his lead and start a discussion forum on Southern Californian history instead. Coincidentally, I actually know quite a lot about the subject. Well, I used to know a lot, but I have forgotten most of it.
Right, I'd better go get the kilt out the back of the car. Tomorrow will be a night of eightsome reels, dashing white sergeants, and all that...
Last year I was at a Clan MacNeill gathering on Barra. At the rear of the hall there were 6 Amer-Scots (is that the real word?) all dressed in their best kilts, fluffy lacy ruffs and socks and brogues. They looked the real part. But everyone else including the Clan Chief were in their casual clothes, kids were running round and there was total disorder. When some of their songs came on, the americans would stand to attention as if those Gaelic songs were anthems, but no one else took any notice except me in bemusement. I actually felt sorry for them that their clan's rituals were taken so informally. But if you were a Barra MacNeill then it might have looked somewhat cringeworthy, I don't know maybe not, maybe it just looked cringeworthy to me.
So what is your point? American-Scots are funny, amusing creatures not at all like us native Scots?
I presume you mean Americans of Scottish descent as opposed to American-Scots? :confused
Right, I'd better go get the kilt out the back of the car. Tomorrow will be a night of eightsome reels, dashing white sergeants, and all that...
Och aye, DrSzin, do let me join you. I like the Gay Gordons masel. I can do a mean sword dance too, but of course, that's almost obligatory here. :D ;)
neep___docker
03-Jun-05, 23:49
Maybe I should follow his lead and start a discussion forum on Southern Californian history instead.
It'll be a brief discussion then. Here's Californian history in its entirety:
1850 - create U.S. State of California
1851 to 2005 - exploit Hispanics.
There is still bigotry in Scotland towards Catholics
There is also bigotry towards Protestants, blacks, Asians, asylum seekers, even scientists :lol: ........just like everywhere else really :roll:
Thanks chiels, yet another warm caithness welcome shown to the world. and extra points for slagging california without them even making an appearance.
well done. when our tiny corner of the island rots off, no one will notice nor care.
cm'on kaitness :eyes
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