James Robertson/Robeson & Elizabeth McDonald-Canisbay & Thurso

[helenwyler]

Hello!:lol:
Does anybody have info about my ggrandparents James Robertson b. 1833 Canisbay or wife Eliza McDonald b. 1834/5 probably Thurso? Names and birth dates are right, but origins in Caithness are a bit shaky.


I think James Robertson was born in Canisbay (1841 census), and his parents were probably James Robertson and Elizabeth Gray (b. 1802). In OPR birth records name given as Robeson. He had three sisters - Ann and Margaret (twins?) both given as born 1826, and Janet b. 1831. Father James appears to be dead by 1841 census, mother E. Robertson's occupation given as "cottager".

Elizabeth McDonald's father was Hugh (stated in her marriage registration Aberdeen 1854, and his occupation given as "farmer"). The only people with these names and right age for Elizabeth (1841 census) give mother as Margaret, and sisters Barbra, Christina & Catherine. Can't find them in 1851 census.

I'm not 100% about James' and Elizabeth's parents, but if they are in anybody else's tree or any kind soul has info about these names I'd be really grateful to know.

Thanks!!

Helen nee Robertson

[marionq]

Have you tried the www.cursiter.co.uk website which deals with Orkney and Caithness? I found a lot of my ancestors whom I had linked only with Caithness previously. It's worth a try.

Marion

[Rosemary Skea]

Helen, Have you got Elizabeth's mother's maiden name on the marriage certificate? This will help with finding the family. In Thurso OPR of births there are three families with Hugh Macdonald listed as father.

Rosemary

[helenwyler]

Thanks for the tip Marion. I've had a look at the website and can't find anybody there, but it's helpful to rule out Orkney connections.

Have a good weekend!
Helen

[helenwyler]

:) Hello Rosemary - your advice prompted me to do some fine tooth-combing with excellent results!
Although I'd already found 6 OPR records for Elizabeth and 6 for father Hugh Macdonald (can't find marriage registration for Hugh) I couldn't match them reliably.
When I got your message I sat down with all the OPR, Freecen, Scotlandspeople and Ancestry.co.uk records in piles on the floor! I'd forgotten that the early censuses didn't always give the relationships between people staying at an address. Elizabeth was missing from 1841 census but present on the 1851 census. So I checked birth records for all Elizabeths and found she wasn't the daughter of the McDonalds she was staying with on the night of the 1841 census, but 'my' MacDonald family!
I then was able to find her mother Margaret Gunn, and that Elizabeth had been a twin, whose sister must have died before 1841. As the censuses rolled by she also took a few years off her age!
Thanks so much for inspiring me! Running out of space, Helen

[Mamie_2]

might be the one born c 1800 to Alexander Gray and Margaret Bremner?

Margaret was at Heather of Freswick in 1841

Alexander and Margaret's children
Alexander, Janet, William, Elspet/Elizabeth, James and Sinclair.

Have further information on James and Sinclair if you think this might be "yours".

Maryann

[helenwyler]

Hello Maryann
Since my original post I've dug up Elspet/Elizabeth's OPR birth (16 Feb 1800), marriage to William Robertson (20 April 1823) and SD (13 May 1867) which gives her parents as Alexander Gray and Margaret Bremner (m 12 July 1793). I'd also found her brother Sinclair( b 13 Nov 1804), but didn't know about other siblings - if you have info, I'd be interested to know. Are you related to them?

Elizabeth Gray is my gggrandmother. The puzzling thing is that although she remained married to William Robertson all her life, her son James' OPR Birth (15 July 1833 Canisbay) gives father as James not William Robeson. I can't find William or James in 1841 or 51. I think they might have been soldiers.

Also William seems to have been married before as there is a daughter Margaret very close in age to another daughter Anne, but her OPR gives her parents as William Robertson and Charlotte Cruickshanks. Thanks, Helen

[Mamie_2]

Hej Helen

My connection to these Gray's is through Sinclair. His grandson George Gray 1869-1926 married my 3rd cousin 2x removed Helen Jane Dunnet.

I do not have any details on Alexander Gray other than he may have been the son, born in 1763 om Watten, of Alexander Gray and Elizabeth Sutherland.

Margaret Bremner's parents were William Bremner and Janet Irvine. She had 3 brothers Alexander, William and Andrew. I have further connections to these Bremner's through Andrew's line.

Alexander and Margaret's children
Alexander - b Nov 17 1793 no further info.

Janet - b Aug 9 1795 I believe she never married

William b 1797 no further info

James b Jul 13 1802 had daughter Besty with Sydney Miller married Jane Laird (born Aug 4 1809) on Apr 27 1833. James and Janet had one son Alexander that I know of in 1834.

Sinclair married Margaret Bain Nov 25 1833. They had 7 children.
Alexander 1835
Helen 1837
Donald (1838-1911)married Catherine Houston( parents George and Barbara Houston) and Helen McAdie. It is his son George who married Helen Jane Dunnet.
Margaret 1841
Ann 1843 married a William Bremner
Janet 1846
Sinclair 1849

Maryann

[helenwyler]

Hello Maryann

Thanks so much for your info on the Grey family - a whole new branch. It's good to know Margaret Bremner's parents - there were two Margarets born two years apart to fathers William Bremner and mothers Janet, both in Canisbay and I didn't know which was which, so thanks for settling that for me!

Elizabeth's husband William Robeson is still a puzzle. According to his mother's SD he's still alive in 1855, and on Elizabeth's SD 1867 he was a "farmer", but Elizabeth appears to have been alone with her children in 1841 (Skirza) living as cottager, and doing "general industry" in 1851 (Mitten), living with a dwindling number of offspring.

She had three daughters - Margaret 1824, Anne 1826, & Janet 1831. Her only son James (1833) married Eliza McDonald (Thurso) in Aberdeen 1854. They moved on via Berwick to Durham, where my grandfather James Theophilus Robertson, the youngest of eight boys and no girls, was born in 1874.

I may have mentioned a Cruickshanks connection in previous communication - this was an error I made early on in my searching!

Thanks again and if you want more info on the Robertsons let me know.

Helen

[Mamie_2]

William, even if generally a farmer/crofter, could have been out fishing at the time of the 1841 census.

Many men supplemented their incomes by fishing.

When I have a moment I may have a look for William lol. I would love to add more Robertson's to my database though.

Right at the moment I have a bunch of Robert Levach's descendants that I am looking at. One of his descendants just sent me a family file of about 560 people!! Need to have a good look and see how to integrate it into my database.

Maryann

[helenwyler]

Yes he might have been out fishing, but there are some odd things, not only about his absence, but about the paternity of Elizabeth's children.

1841 - if William was a 'farmer' (according to her SD), why is Elizabeth's occ. 'cottager'? They could have started off as cottagers, I suppose.

1851 - Elizabeth described as 'head' and occ. 'general industry' (not farmer's wife/widow)

1861 - Elizabeth living with daughter Margaret (m. Andrew Donaldson 1860) and occ. given as 'formerly fisherman's wife'

Paternity puzzles:

Margaret b. 1824 to William Robeson and Elizabeth Gray. SM (m. Andrew Donaldson 1860) gives father as William Robertson, Farmer, (dec) and Elizabeth Robertson.

Anne b. 1826 to William Robertson and Elizabeth Gray, but SM (m. Andrew Rosie 1865) gives father as James Robertson, fisherman dec. and Elizabeth Robertson/Gray

Janet b. 1831 to William Robertson and Elizabeth Gray, never married, SD gives father William Robertson, farmer dec. and Elizabeth Robertson/Gray.

James (my ggrandfather) b. 1833 to James Robertson and Elizabeth Gray. English death record (1907 - no parents) and married in Aberdeen before SMs.

One name error in favour of James Robeson is plausible, but two, 32 years apart, in favour of the same person sounds more substantial.

I have more info about possible remarriage of William in 1837, but need to check it. Is it possible to get access to kirk session records online do you know?

Helen

[Mamie_2]

but that's why I enjoy genealogy lol.

I do not know of any kirk sessions online. Maybe someone else does?

An error on a marriage record and one on a birth record isn't so far out of the realms of possibility as two that were contemporary.

Perhaps William's death occurred between 1851 and 1855 making it difficult to prove.

Children of Elizabeth's children were? Any clues in the naming of them? I see Andrew and Ann didn't seem to have any children. If James is first or second rather than William increase the odds father was James.

Maryann

[helenwyler]

You might well be right about plausibility of three consistent deviations from William as father, but my nose is telling me there were two fathers involved here.

The fact that the first and last refs to James are 32 years apart makes it seem less likely (to me) to be fortuitous error. Two refs to 'fisherman' too.

I have not found a convincing William or James Robertson on 1841 or 51 census, nor SDs. Of course they could both have died before 1855. But I've been trying to do some lateral thinking.

I think maybe William/James' son, James b. 1833, might have been working on Donald Robertson's farm, Halfway House, Wick, as FS in 1851. He wasn't at home with Elizabeth Gray. I've eliminated other Jameses of similar age on 1851 census if they were living with family etc. or if they reappear on 1861 census, as James was married and living in Berwick by then with four children. There is one other James Robertson FS in Olrig, but he's a little too young, maybe. If Donald was his uncle, he had two brothers William and James... More of this another time when I've checked more thoroughly.


Elizabeth's daughter Margaret Robertson/Donaldson's children were:

James (but Andrew Donaldson's father was James too, living with them in Scarclet 1861)
Isabella (Andrew's mother's name Isabella Mowat)
Williamina (could be significant). Margaret gives father's name as William on Stat. Marriage , unlike sister Anne Stat. Marriage record.
Andrew

[Tricia]

Elizabeth's daughter Margaret Robertson/Donaldson's children were:

James (but Andrew Donaldson's father was James too, living with them in Scarclet 1861)
Isabella (Andrew's mother's name Isabella Mowat)
Williamina (could be significant). Margaret gives father's name as William on Stat. Marriage , unlike sister Anne Stat. Marriage record.
Andrew

The Donaldson family on this line are James Donaldson and Isabell Mowat - lived in Sarclet -. Note in 1861. James Donaldson is widowed living with son Andrew Donaldson and his wife Margare ROBERTSON(b Canisbay) also staying there is widow Elizabeth Robertson(Grey)

1861: Name: Andrew Donaldson
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Margaret
Father's Name: James
Gender: Male
Where born: Wick, Caithnessshire
Registration Number: 43/2
Registration district: Wick
Civil parish: Wick
County: Caithness
Address: Lochside Of Sarclet
Occupation: Fisherman
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 149
Line: 23
Roll: CSSCT1861_6
Household Members: Name Age
Andrew Donaldson 25
Margaret Donaldson 29
James Donaldson 1
James Donaldson 74 father wid
Elizabeth Robertson 59 mother in law wid

1841 Sarclet
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
DONALDSON James M 55 Fisherman Caithness
MOWAT / DONALDSON Isbel F 40 Caithness
DONALDSON Elis. F 21 Caithness
DONALD Anne F 14 Caithness
DONALD Isac M 12 Caithness
DONALD James M 9 Caithness
DONALD Andrew M 7 Caithness

Tricia

[Tricia]

Hello!:lol:
Does anybody have info about my ggrandparents James Robertson b. 1833 Canisbay or wife Eliza McDonald b. 1834/5 probably Thurso? Names and birth dates are right, but origins in Caithness are a bit shaky.

I think James Robertson was born in Canisbay (1841 census), and his parents were probably James Robertson and Elizabeth Gray (b. 1802). In OPR birth records name given as Robeson. He had three sisters - Ann and Margaret (twins?) both given as born 1826, and Janet b. 1831. Father James appears to be dead by 1841 census, mother E. Robertson's occupation given as "cottager".

I'm not 100% about James' and Elizabeth's parents, but if they are in anybody else's tree or any kind soul has info about these names I'd be really grateful to know.

Thanks!!

Helen nee Robertson

To all
I have deaths for James son & Janet daug of William R & Eliz Gray.

Death of brother and sister. Both SINGLE.

James Robertson b 1 Jun 1833 Freswick Canisbay.
Son of William Robertson, Fisherman b 1799 and Elizabeth Gray.
Died single in Freswick Canisbay aged 74 on 5 Jan 1909.
Accute Bronchitis and Heart Failure.
He was a fisherman. Informant was his cousin James Donaldson(cousin or nephew??).

Janet Robertson b 4 Dec 1830 Freswick Canisbay
Daug of William Robertson, Crofter and Elizabeth Gray.
Died single in Freswick Canisbay aged 75 on 8 Feb 1907.
Chronic Bronchitis 6 months and Debility 3 months.
She was domestic servant. Informant was James Donaldson Nephew.

James is also to be found on various census to 1901 a single man in Canisbay.
Assuming the dath cert has named correct parents then this is not the James who married 1854 in Aberdeen Elizabeth Mcdonald. (see other posts in this thread)

Other James Robertson Births and baptisms in Canisbay c 1833:
6 Apr 1834 12 May 1834 James M Patrick ROBERTSON Euphemia MCKAY Stroma
8 Mar 1835 26 Mar 1835 James M Donald ROBESON Barbara SIMPSON Freswick

I believe the James 1835 to Donald & Barbara is in Wick married in later years.

Have we any evidence to say that the James R married to Elizabeth McDonald was in fact born Canisbay. His marriage cert does not help and in English census 1861 onwards it just says Scotland.

ANYONE help!
Helen knows about this as we have exchanged emails - I just thought someone reading this may have a fresh lead.

Tricia.

[Tricia]

I think maybe William/James' son, James b. 1833, might have been working on Donald Robertson's farm, Halfway House, Wick, as FS in 1851. He wasn't at home with Elizabeth Gray. I've eliminated other Jameses of similar age on 1851 census if they were living with family etc. or if they reappear on 1861 census, as James was married and living in Berwick by then with four children. There is one other James Robertson FS in Olrig, but he's a little too young, maybe. If Donald was his uncle, he had two brothers William and James... More of this another time when I've checked more thoroughly.

Reckon this could be James Robertson son of Elizabeth Gray
Piece: SCT1851/39 Place: Olrig -Caithness Enumeration District: 3 Civil Parish: Olrig Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 0 Page: 5 Schedule: 18
Address: Thurdistoft
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
GREY John Head U M 29 Farm Servant Caithness - Wick
MILLER Henry Servnt U M 21 Farm Servant Caithness - Olrig
GUNN John Servnt U M 18 Shepherd Caithness - Halkirk
LEVACH James Servnt U M 16 Farm Servant Caithness - Canisbay
ROBERTSON James Servnt U M 16 Farm Servant Caithness - Canisbay

John Grey may well be a relative of James's mother Eliz Grey. ! Any takers???

Tricia

[Mamie_2]

Isn't it likely that he is the John born in 1824 to James Gray and Esther More who married 1821 in Wick?

Elizabeth did have brother James born 1802 but I have him having children with two other women lol.
i.e Jane Laird m 1833 and Sidney Miller.
He is in Wick in 1841 and 1851 but not in Sarclet which is where James who married Esther More is in 1841 both age 40. Esther's James doesn't seem to be at home in 1851 but Esther is listed as married not widowed. I can't find Esther or James in Sarclet in 1861. She was born c 1793-1801 in Sarclet and James is likely of a similiar age.

I think that I have a candidate for William Roberston/Robson who could have been Elizabeth Gray's spouse.

William born May 12 1799 in Freswick(FREEREG entry) to James Robertson/Robson and Ann Bremner. Would fit the names of William and Elizabeth's children.
At least two sibling that I know of.
Elizabeth b c 1792 sm Donald Warse
Sinclair 1803 m Andrew Bain

The Sarclet Grays and the Freswick Grays don't seem to be easily connected although I suppose they could be.

Mamie

[Mamie_2]

Elspet Robson 1791 Freswick aka Elizabeth
William Robson 1799 Freswick
Sinclair Robson 1803 /Freswick
Donald Robeson 1807 Freswick m Barbara Simpson James 1835 is their son

all on FREEREG

James Robson and Ann Bremner were contracted in Jul and may have married Jul 11 1790 in Canisbay. Only their parishes are recorded. No witnesses recorded.

Mamie

[Mamie_2]

James Robertson and Elizabeth McDonald's children? where are they on the English Censuses?? what was his occupation?
We need to rework your research I think.

Obviously they had some or you wouldn't be able to be looking for him. Any Patrick or Peter's in the family??

The only one we really haven't accounted for is the one in 1834 to Patrick and Euphemia Mackay lol.

I have Donald and Barbara's James 1835 married to Catherine Gair/Gare(other sp possible)
James 1833 of William and Elizabeth died single.

Patrick was born in 1794 in Latheron and his father was James. He and Euphemia married in 1830 in Latheron.

Mamie

[Mamie_2]

I did find them in Berwick Upon Tweed in 1861.
Eliza McDonald crossed out Robertson Boi***llers wife
Hugh 6 scholar
J? 4
William 2
Daniel 8 mos

I do see that there are multiple public trees with James and Eliza McDonald but most do have William and Elizabeth Gray as parents which we know to be wrong. Comments have been added to all of them confirming this.

Would that have been you Tricia? or someone else.

What was James occupation that he was never home for the censuses? lol

Mamie

[helenwyler]

Hi Mamie and Tricia

Thanks for all your comments on these resurrected threads, and sorry for my delay in replying.

Tricia has given me incontrovertible evidence I had the wrong James Robertson (b abt 1833) in Caithness and I have removed him and Elizabeth Gray (+ relatives) from my tree on Ancestry. This tree has been private for a while. Other members on Ancestry copied parts of my tree (including my grandfather!) and although I contacted them to share info, I never received any replies.

My brother and I are sure we were told that that both James Robertson and Eliza MacDonald came from Caithness - she definitely did.

James' birth (calculated from English death cert) is abt 1833. I have his family on censuses - Berwick then various places in Durham down to 1911. I know these to be correct.

I made too many assumptions about James in Caithness though. The family story was one of great poverty, scraping a living from the land, hence the move south via Aberdeen (where they married in 1854) and Berwick (1861). As my father spoke of them living in the Thurso area (Eliza's family) and also the Pentland Firth, I thought it likely that James' birthplace might have been Canisbay.

When I looked at the James Robertsons born c 1833 in Caithness, most seemed implausible.

Not the son of Patrick and Euphemia Robertson (teachers) who seem to have left caithness by 1851. We are all teachers in my family, but the ancestral story was of farming.

Not the grandson of the Calders - he's still there in 1861.

Not the son of Donald and Barbara Simpson - married Catherine Gair 1857.

Not the son of James and Isabella - still in Caithness in 1861.

etc.

And now I know he was not the son of William Robertson and Elizabeth Gray - this is where I made my mistake as the probably widowed cottager Elizabeth, living in Canisbay, fitted the profile of the family story, although I had no proof.

I don't have time to do any searching atm, but perhaps my father was wrong, or did not know all the facts about his grandfather coming from Caithness. I have often wondered why they married in Aberdeen and not Caithness. Their first recorded son was born the following year and named for Eliza's father Hugh, it seems. The next two were James and William. They had eight sons but no daughters to indicate a possible naming pattern on the maternal side.

Thank you so much for your suggestions and interest - and apologies for appropriating the wrong JR!

Helen

[helenwyler]

Hi Tricia

Just pasting this from another thread as a reply as I'm about to scrape snow off the car!



Hi Mamie and Tricia

Thanks for all your comments on these resurrected threads, and sorry for my delay in replying.

Tricia has given me incontrovertible evidence I had the wrong James Robertson (b abt 1833) in Caithness and I have removed him and Elizabeth Gray (+ relatives) from my tree on Ancestry. This tree has been private for a while. Other members on Ancestry copied parts of my tree (including my grandfather!) and although I contacted them to share info, I never received any replies.

My brother and I are sure we were told that that both James Robertson and Eliza MacDonald came from Caithness - she definitely did.

James' birth (calculated from English death cert) is abt 1833. I have his family on censuses - Berwick then various places in Durham down to 1911. I know these to be correct.

I made too many assumptions about James in Caithness though. The family story was one of great poverty, scraping a living from the land, hence the move south via Aberdeen (where they married in 1854) and Berwick (1861). As my father spoke of them living in the Thurso area (Eliza's family) and also the Pentland Firth, I thought it likely that James' birthplace might have been Canisbay.

When I looked at the James Robertsons born c 1833 in Caithness, most seemed implausible.

Not the son of Patrick and Euphemia Robertson (teachers) who seem to have left caithness by 1851. We are all teachers in my family, but the ancestral story was of farming.

Not the grandson of the Calders - he's still there in 1861.

Not the son of Donald and Barbara Simpson - married Catherine Gair 1857.

Not the son of James and Isabella - still in Caithness in 1861.

etc.

And now I know he was not the son of William Robertson and Elizabeth Gray - this is where I made my mistake as the probably widowed cottager Elizabeth, living in Canisbay, fitted the profile of the family story, although I had no proof.

I don't have time to do any searching atm, but perhaps my father was wrong, or did not know all the facts about his grandfather coming from Caithness. I have often wondered why they married in Aberdeen and not Caithness. Their first recorded son was born the following year and named for Eliza's father Hugh, it seems. The next two were James and William. They had eight sons but no daughters to indicate a possible naming pattern on the maternal side.

Thank you so much for your suggestions and interest - and apologies for appropriating the wrong JR!

Helen

[Bob]

The Donaldson family on this line are James Donaldson and Isabell Mowat - lived in Sarclet -. Note in 1861. James Donaldson is widowed living with son Andrew Donaldson and his wife Margare ROBERTSON(b Canisbay) also staying there is widow Elizabeth Robertson(Grey)

1861: Name: Andrew Donaldson
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Margaret
Father's Name: James
Gender: Male
Where born: Wick, Caithnessshire
Registration Number: 43/2
Registration district: Wick
Civil parish: Wick
County: Caithness
Address: Lochside Of Sarclet
Occupation: Fisherman
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 149
Line: 23
Roll: CSSCT1861_6
Household Members: Name Age
Andrew Donaldson 25
Margaret Donaldson 29
James Donaldson 1
James Donaldson 74 father wid
Elizabeth Robertson 59 mother in law wid

1841 Sarclet
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
DONALDSON James M 55 Fisherman Caithness
MOWAT / DONALDSON Isbel F 40 Caithness
DONALDSON Elis. F 21 Caithness
DONALD Anne F 14 Caithness
DONALD Isac M 12 Caithness
DONALD James M 9 Caithness
DONALD Andrew M 7 Caithness

Tricia

Thanks for this information. We believe the Donaldson family mentioned here are those related to my wife through her grandmother - Ethel Ann Mowat.
We think the James Donaldson (b: abt 1832) missing after 1841 census, married Ann Bain on 09Aug1861 in Keiss Wick and came to Australia in 1862. Their daughter Mary Jane b 1871 Carisbrook Victoria, married John Mowat b 1894 Maryborough Vic - they're the parents of Ethel Ann. Btw: John Mowat's father - John, arrived 1857 from Caithness, His parents were John M and Barbara [MacKay].

I'm trying to locate James (brother of Andrew) after 1841 and before his marriage to Ann Bain. Other comments on this thread give me a lead.

Many thanks.

[Tricia]

Hi Bob
by 1851 James junior's father James was a widow so he may have been out working.
process of elimination but :
a possible in 1851 and with same folks in 1861 - KEISS
Piece: SCT1851/43 Place: Wick -Caithness Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Wick Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Wick
Folio: 0 Page: 10 Schedule: 37
Address: Wester House
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
GALLIE John Head U M 40 Farmer Of 115 Acres Empl 5 Lab Ross and Cromarty -
GALLIE Abner Brothr U M 38 Manager Of The Farm Ross and Cromarty - -
MCKENZIE Margaret Cousin U F 32 House Servant Ross and Cromarty - Fearn(Originally: Ross and Cromarty - Fern)
MUNRO John Nephew U M 14 Scholar Ross and Cromarty - Assynt
DONALDSON James Servnt U M 26 Agricultural Labourer Caithness - Canisbay
BAIN John Servnt U M 16 Agricultural Labourer Caithness - Canisbay
SWANSON Williamina Servnt U F 18 House Servant Caithness - Bower

A Possible in Quoys of KEISS 1861 Census (he married in Keiss as an Ag Labourer)
GALLIE John Head U M 54 Farmer of 200ac 3 lab 1 boy ROC Fearn
GALLIE Abner Brother U M 52 Do Do ROC Fearn
MCKENZIE Margaret Cousin U F 41 House Keeper ROC Fearn
DONALDSON James Serv. U M 34 Farm Serv.CAI Wick
GREEN Malcolm Serv. U M 19 Farm Serv.CAI Wick
SUTHERLAND Elizabeth Serv. U F 20 Dairy Maid CAI Latheron
BRUCE Alexander Serv. U M 13 Herd CAI Wick

( note one says born Canisbay and one Wick - easy error in recording)

I assume you have a copy of the marriage of James D and Ann Bain 1861. I have. She the daughter of Donald Bain and Catherine Rosie.
Tricia

[Tricia]

James Donaldson senior b 01 MAR 1788 son of James Donaldson and Ann Ralf died 4 March 1874 in Sarclet aged 86
Son Andrew was informant.

[Bob]

Hi Bob
by 1851 James junior's father James was a widow so he may have been out working.
process of elimination but :
a possible in 1851 and with same folks in 1861 - KEISS
Piece: SCT1851/43 Place: Wick -Caithness Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Wick Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Wick
Folio: 0 Page: 10 Schedule: 37
Address: Wester House
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
GALLIE John Head U M 40 Farmer Of 115 Acres Empl 5 Lab Ross and Cromarty -
GALLIE Abner Brothr U M 38 Manager Of The Farm Ross and Cromarty - -
MCKENZIE Margaret Cousin U F 32 House Servant Ross and Cromarty - Fearn(Originally: Ross and Cromarty - Fern)
MUNRO John Nephew U M 14 Scholar Ross and Cromarty - Assynt
DONALDSON James Servnt U M 26 Agricultural Labourer Caithness - Canisbay
BAIN John Servnt U M 16 Agricultural Labourer Caithness - Canisbay
SWANSON Williamina Servnt U F 18 House Servant Caithness - Bower

A Possible in Quoys of KEISS 1861 Census (he married in Keiss as an Ag Labourer)
GALLIE John Head U M 54 Farmer of 200ac 3 lab 1 boy ROC Fearn
GALLIE Abner Brother U M 52 Do Do ROC Fearn
MCKENZIE Margaret Cousin U F 41 House Keeper ROC Fearn
DONALDSON James Serv. U M 34 Farm Serv.CAI Wick
GREEN Malcolm Serv. U M 19 Farm Serv.CAI Wick
SUTHERLAND Elizabeth Serv. U F 20 Dairy Maid CAI Latheron
BRUCE Alexander Serv. U M 13 Herd CAI Wick

( note one says born Canisbay and one Wick - easy error in recording)

I assume you have a copy of the marriage of James D and Ann Bain 1861. I have. She the daughter of Donald Bain and Catherine Rosie.
Tricia

Hi Tricia,

Thanks for this. I like your logic and the results of your search skills.

Regarding marriage of James_Junior to Ann Bain in 1861, all I have is the scotlandspeople image (043/02 0009).

I note James_J's age on C61 (34), doesn't fit with his age (29) on the marriage document. (I must admit I've seen some other bigger differences. I guess it may not have been so important; and from the marriage he cannot write.)

I've been off in other parts of Scotland chasing after Brodie and Kerr (my family), your response will bring me back to fill in more detail.

A request, if I may: Do you have J_J's dob info? All I have is - abt 1832. I have all the information regarding their passage to Australia and documents once they arrived here. And some oral history regarding their daughter Mary Jane (the GGM).

Regards

-bob

[Bob]

James Donaldson senior b 01 MAR 1788 son of James Donaldson and Ann Ralf died 4 March 1874 in Sarclet aged 86
Son Andrew was informant.

Hi Tricia,

Again you fill in holes in my work - thanks.

I had d: for James_Senior, your b: information greatly improves on my b: abt 1786.

What can you tell me about his wife Isabella (Bell) Mowat? My best (!) is b: abt 1800 and d: btwn 1841 - 1862. I cannot find her anywhere. And I have Isabella's parents as Andrew Mowat and ?? Isbel/Isabel/Isobel. Can you point me in a direction to improve the quality of this material?

Also, regarding J_S's mother Ann Ralf, I also saw Ann Rolf. Can you add weight to one or the other?

Regards

-bob

[Bob]

Hi Tricia,

Thanks for this. I like your logic and the results of your search skills.

Regarding marriage of James_Junior to Ann Bain in 1861, all I have is the scotlandspeople image (043/02 0009).

I note James_J's age on C61 (34), doesn't fit with his age (29) on the marriage document. (I must admit I've seen some other bigger differences. I guess it may not have been so important; and from the marriage he cannot write.)

I've been off in other parts of Scotland chasing after Brodie and Kerr (my family), your response will bring me back to fill in more detail.

A request, if I may: Do you have J_J's dob info? All I have is - abt 1832. I have all the information regarding their passage to Australia and documents once they arrived here. And some oral history regarding their daughter Mary Jane (the GGM).

Regards

-bob

Hi Tricia,

More on James_Junior's age.

With an assumption - btwn 1830 & 1840 only one James D born with parents James and Isabella (Yes), then following an analysis of scotlandspeople b index records I arrived at a birth date of 30.01.1832. This date is consistant with age at C41 (9) and marriage in 1861 to Ann Bain (29). Doesn't fit with the age on the C51 & C61 records for found James, or fit with age of James at his death in 1923 Maryborough Vic (94). As I said earlier, maybe it wasn't important, or maybe folk elevated their age for advantage. Comments?

Regards

-bob

[Tricia]

What can you tell me about his wife Isabella (Bell) Mowat? My best (!) is b: abt 1800 and d: btwn 1841 - 1862. I cannot find her anywhere. And I have Isabella's parents as Andrew Mowat and ?? Isbel/Isabel/Isobel. Can you point me in a direction to improve the quality of this material?
Also, regarding J_S's mother Ann Ralf, I also saw Ann Rolf. Can you add weight to one or the other?
Regards-bob

Can't sort Isabella's parents - she could be either side of 1800 but they have birth of a daughter ???before marriage
SP record
30/06/1820 DONALDSON ELISABETH OR MOWAT//JAMES DONALDSON/ISOBEL MOWAT WICK /CAITHNESS 043/ 0040 0015
" James in Sarclet had by Isabel Mowat in Ulbster an illegitimate child named Elizabeth born April 30th bapt June 30th witnesses Andrew Mowat boat carpenter Ulbster and George Donaldson a Tailor in Wick"

Could it be that James was still or had been married before........ he was supposedly 15 or so years older than Isabella.???

[Tricia]

Also, regarding J_S's mother Ann Ralf, I also saw Ann Rolf. Can you add weight to one or

James Donaldson married Ann Rolf /also found as Ralf/Ralfe/Ralph)
17 NOV 1781 Wick, Caithness, Scotland

[helenwyler]

Hello Tricia and Bob

While I am very glad (if jealous) that you have had a very productive time with your Donaldsons and descendants, the title of my thread was James Robertson...et al.

I am slightly concerned that anyone with information about my James Robertson might be deterred from posting as the swing has gone to the Donaldsons, whom Tricia has incontrovertibly proved are not my ancestral line.

I would therefore be grateful if you would start another thread about the Donaldsons and descendants, and not use this one.

Hope you get my drift, no offence intended. :)

Helen

[Bob]

Hello Tricia and Bob

While I am very glad (if jealous) that you have had a very productive time with your Donaldsons and descendants, the title of my thread was James Robertson...et al.

I am slightly concerned that anyone with information about my James Robertson might be deterred from posting as the swing has gone to the Donaldsons, whom Tricia has incontrovertibly proved are not my ancestral line.

I would therefore be grateful if you would start another thread about the Donaldsons and descendants, and not use this one.

Hope you get my drift, no offence intended. :)

Helen

Hi Helen,

And none taken. Making progress (even slow progress) was exciting; didn't stop to think.

From me: As the ball is in my court I'll setup a new thread, as you've suggested, to take the Donaldson discussion forward.

Thanks for starting this journey and good luck to you for your Robertson quest.

Regards

-bob

[Tricia]

Yes it appears to be Donaldson/Mowat topic now and I was thinking it should be a new thread but Bob has beaten me to it. Thanks Bob.
NEW Donaldson/Mowat etc thread at :
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=117948

However anyone reading this thread remember that this Caithness ROBERTSON and DONALDSON line is linked.
eg 1861 James Donaldson is widowed living with son Andrew Donaldson and his wife Margaret ROBERTSON(b Canisbay) also staying there is Margaret's mother widow Elizabeth ROBERTSON(msGREY). Elizabeth the widow of James Robertson (as previous posts) .

Helen
Sorry your Robertson didn't turn out to be the James 1833 son of James and Elizabeth(Grey) Robertson.
Did you ever find any link to Caithness with your Robertson.
Quote from you: "As my father spoke of them living in the Thurso area and also the Pentland Firth,"

Tricia