View Full Version : Is the government to lenient
Is the government to lenient on people claiming benefits or is it just that they know how to work the system?
How is it that someone on benefits can afford a car & the running costs, sky t.v, house phone & mobile phone, holidays, computer & broadband and still be able to smoke and go on nights out?
My hubby & I both work full time, we dont smoke, never have a night out & yet there is very little left over after the bills are paid, so how on earth do people on benefits manage it? & before some of you get on your high horse telling me that this isnt the case, i know of a good few folk who are on benefits and seem to manage it no problem.
I have friends who work full time yet they cant afford to take time of when they are sick for fear of getting behind in their rent, council tax and other bills.
So how is it possible for folk on benefits to manage i would really like to know
I think the government policy on benifits could certainly do with a review!
Sometimes there does seem to be people that are appear to be 'on to a good deal'. However i know that there are a lot of honest people out there that have no choice but to take benefits even if only for a time, that still struggle to survive and who due to restricitions of what they can and can not do seem to be worse off.
The government comes out with all these promises to help but it never seems to help those generally in need and i don't just mean in terms of benifits but national health etc, whole system is enough to make your blood boil :D
I think the government policy on benifits could certainly do with a review!
Sometimes there does seem to be people that are appear to be 'on to a good deal'. However i know that there are a lot of honest people out there that have no choice but to take benefits even if only for a time, that still struggle to survive and who due to restricitions of what they can and can not do seem to be worse off.
The government comes out with all these promises to help but it never seems to help those generally in need and i don't just mean in terms of benifits but national health etc, whole system is enough to make your blood boil :D
I agree there are a few honest folk on benefits lol but they seem to be few and far between
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 19:05
There is nobility in working, it brings personal responsibility, pride and satisfaction. I personally feel proud when I can look around me and see what I have worked hard hard for but it makes me furious when I see the next person, who has no intention in working, living luxurious lifestyles at the expense of the taxpayer. [disgust]
I have no argument with genuine cases and I do know a couple on benefit. Unfortunately I know a few, one in particular I know well, who could have worked for at least the last twenty years and have played the system. He was able to help out at various businesses, do some pretty heavy lifting with friends and has a great pastime in dog walking as we honest folk headed for work.
System certainly needs tightening up.
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 19:19
I would love for someone on benefits to explain how they are able to afford to buy and run a car. I know when my road tax, insurance or mot is due I have to work all the overtime I can get to be able to afford it. :confused
cuddlepop
10-Mar-07, 19:20
The benefit system was set up as a saftey net and not the support system it is for some now.:(
crashbandicoot1979
10-Mar-07, 19:20
Far far too lenient, there needs to be a complete overhaul. There are loads of people on incapacity benefit who are more than capable of working. Fair enough, some people may have health problems that are not obvious, but there are plenty others who claim they can't work yet will happily cut trees at christmas time or land fish at Scrabster every Monday for cash in hand!!!!
I know of one couple with four children who, taking into account the fact that their rent and council tax is paid, plus the fact they get free school meals etc, are making around £2000 per month! My wages and my other half's combied don't even come to that and we've worked all our lives!!!
I would rather work than live off benefits (unless circumstances meant I had to) but it still riles me no end to see people who I know could be working running around in fancy cars with the best of everything. It makes me wonder why I bother. Plus its an insult to those who genuinely cannot work as it leads to all claimants being tarred with the same brush, and I have no doubt that there are plenty who are willing to work but can't.
when a was a kid most folk who were on the dole were really embarressed to say they were, nowadays they seem well proud of it, goes to show what a messed up society we live in [disgust]
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 19:29
It's changed days though, now it's the kids of working people who have the hand me downs and second hand prams ect, while the kids on the social have all the latest gadgets [evil]
Billy Boy
10-Mar-07, 19:52
in short, yes they are far to lenient, it's a sad day when someone on benefits, has a 2 year old car and all the latest toys, when i have to go out and work a 6 day week and come home to my council tax bill that has just gone over the £1000 mark [evil] me and the wife both work hard just to scrape by and have very little luxuries, just to see some people doing nothing and haveing a lot more than they should. being unemployed should mean that thing's are tight and you shouldnt be better off than the working person.
there's a guy in town who has a sign on his car saying "work harder those on benefits depend on you " how true is that?
not all children on benefits get all the good things.Hand me down are fine for some, but as to being able to buy nice things, maybe people on benefits do alot more budgeting and they tend not to have credit cards, or hp, or mortgages......They live on a tight budget and learn to live with it......As for cars i should think most people on benefits have old cars not worth the insurance premium they pay, but it helps with everyday life......Why can people not mind their own and wonder about all the people on benefits that abuse the system, like working behind backs, those that claim they are single and are not, those that can afford to go drinking each weekend, and then cant buy food or gas, elec, because they would rather spend it on booze.....People with kids atleast spend it on their children, but then some dont and the children are taken away,,,,,Being on I/S can destroy families that just want to survive,,,,,,,,,,mum of 8......
I am well aware that there are people on benefits who are there through no fault of there own, I was on benefits once myself years ago and no mater how hard i budgeted i COULDNT afford to own a car let alone tax, insure, mot and keep up the running costs and the wear and tear.
No matter how hard you try to make your money stretch it not elasticated
without getting into this to much, it is easier these days to budget than before...if you shop you can find insurance that is paidmonthly, just like most people...Most people on benefits would love to be able to go away and have good things...When people work, they love to go away on a holiday that costs alot and then complain about people who have never been anywhere.....Children do miss out on benefits and get enough hassle from other kids because they have to have hand me downs, but they are happy.....I would love to take the children camping but it would cost over 2.000 and we aint got that..we all miss out.....
without getting into this to much, it is easier these days to budget than before...if you shop you can find insurance that is paidmonthly, just like most people...Most people on benefits would love to be able to go away and have good things...When people work, they love to go away on a holiday that costs alot and then complain about people who have never been anywhere.....Children do miss out on benefits and get enough hassle from other kids because they have to have hand me downs, but they are happy.....I would love to take the children camping but it would cost over 2.000 and we aint got that..we all miss out.....
Justine you are missing the point here, Whether you pay things monthly or weekly the money still has to come from somewhere, you say you cant afford a holiday well that is your choice, you choose to have all your children you must of known then that there would be certain things that you would have to forfeit by having such a large family.
You also said in another post that if you and your hubby went back to work it would cost the tax payer in child minding fee's, surely it would be better for one of you to work and claim working tax credits while the other looks after the kids atleast then you are contrabuting to bringing up your own kids and not expecting others to do it for you, you say you only claim what you are entitled to well wouldnt the country be in a fine shape if we all thought like that
Who got me started??
that would be me lol:roll:
Is the government to lenient on people claiming benefits or is it just that they know how to work the system?
How is it that someone on benefits can afford a car & the running costs, sky t.v, house phone & mobile phone, holidays, computer & broadband and still be able to smoke and go on nights out?
My hubby & I both work full time, we dont smoke, never have a night out & yet there is very little left over after the bills are paid, so how on earth do people on benefits manage it? & before some of you get on your high horse telling me that this isnt the case, i know of a good few folk who are on benefits and seem to manage it no problem.
I have friends who work full time yet they cant afford to take time of when they are sick for fear of getting behind in their rent, council tax and other bills.
So how is it possible for folk on benefits to manage i would really like to know
Sam - I totally agree with you.Me and my boyfriend wonder this all the time and in fact I just fell out with my brothers ex girlfriend for having the same opinion. She doesnt work has child after child all paid for by the government - has sky, broadband and a lovely house an expensive car then she started moaning because her and my brother broke up (he works all hours god sends) and now she doesnt have an 'income' coming in!! The cheek of it!
but i am not complaining about not being able to go away, and i do not think that i should be able, but i did not ask for this life,it ended up this way and now i am set i the fact that even if i were not pregnant, that i would still have to raise my youngsters....children are better off being raised by people who love them and not just people who get paid for it.....There are many people out there that do work and get working tax credit, child benefit, all the things that they are entitled to, now realises that in some cases it is harder to live on all they get.....Everyone is entitled to a life...quoted from another thread, This is not a third world country and we are not barbaric, and i know of no-one that refuses some kind of help......
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 21:11
.....There are many people out there that do work and get working tax credit, .
Errm, a clue for you...... notice the word WORKING???? :roll:
hi enjybengy,,, i have met a few like that and i would not want to name names either.....Each are different, have different reasons.but there are some that just dont want to help themselves and like you said send the wife?girlfriend out to work 16 hrs a week ,claim sperate benifits for "not" living with thierspouses and steal from the tax payers...At least people know that they are helping some children have a better life than they would probably have....
Is the government to lenient on people claiming benefits or is it just that they know how to work the system?
How is it that someone on benefits can afford a car & the running costs, sky t.v, house phone & mobile phone, holidays, computer & broadband and still be able to smoke and go on nights out?
My hubby & I both work full time, we dont smoke, never have a night out & yet there is very little left over after the bills are paid, so how on earth do people on benefits manage it? & before some of you get on your high horse telling me that this isnt the case, i know of a good few folk who are on benefits and seem to manage it no problem.
I have friends who work full time yet they cant afford to take time of when they are sick for fear of getting behind in their rent, council tax and other bills.
So how is it possible for folk on benefits to manage i would really like to know
I know how you feel, often I wonder why people on benefits are so well off. I have never signed on and have a good job with good money but I still can't afford new cars and tradesmen coming into my house to do the latest thing. I think some of them supplement their income with the black market and by working on the side. It's the lazy element I can't be doing with and women who pop kids out of them just so they don't have to get off their fat backsides ever again. Totally uneducated and permanent hand out, makes me sick. Most of the people I encounter who are on the dole think the world owes them a living. I'd say that those who really need benefits are few and far between these days.
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 21:17
I know how you feel, often I wonder why people on benefits are so well off. I have never signed on and have a good job with good money but I still can't afford new cars and tradesmen coming into my house to do the latest thing. I think some of them supplement their income with the black market and by working on the side. It's the lazy element I can't be doing with and women who pop kids out of them just so they don't have to get off their fat backsides ever again. Totally uneducated and permanent hand out, makes me sick. Most of the people I encounter who are on the dole think the world owes them a living. I'd say that those who really need benefits are few and far between these days.Iwish I could afford a quarter of what these parasites get. [disgust]
yes there are Working 16 hrs, but are they any better off, and hear many say how much easier life was before they could only do 16 Hrs....If people with lots of kids go back to work, who suffers.....The ones who did not ask to be there CHILDREN.........and i dont think anyone has the right to decide what kind of life a child has because they think it is unfair that they have to pay taxes to help other people out......I have heard people ranting on about benefits and taxes for the last decade, and i know some that have gone on to end up on benefits, and boy arethey supprised at just how hard things become....It is a system that has been around longer than lots of people, and will be around for many more..An argument that could last a lifetime with no right or wrong way.....
System certainly needs overhauling. Think the DSS (or whatever they're called now) either don't have the staff to check up on people or can't be bothered because it's easier just to keep paying out. I have no patience with people who have large families and claim benefit, unless they had the children while working and then were unable to work due to ill health etc. People who can't afford children shouldn't have them - simple. The right to have a family has to be accompanied by accepting responsibility for looking after them.
There is a Catch22 though for those who are on benefit, want to work but are unable to earn enough to live on if they lose benefit completely. It is high time it was graduated so that everyone on benefits was encouraged back into work and supported to some extent until they are able to support themselves completely. Or even continue to receive reduced benefit to supplement a low income. Many people dare not work because they will lose all benefit and their wages simply don't cover the loss. It shouldn't be too difficult to relate benefit to income. I believe you are allowed to earn a small regular amount but many people can only start off with casual work and this is just not catered for. Housing benefit could continue to be paid up to a reasonable amount for the circumstances of the claimant but I believe this is also all or nothing. Might be complicated but surely not impossible.
but i am not complaining about not being able to go away, and i do not think that i should be able, but i did not ask for this life,it ended up this way and now i am set i the fact that even if i were not pregnant, that i would still have to raise my youngsters....children are better off being raised by people who love them and not just people who get paid for it.....There are many people out there that do work and get working tax credit, child benefit, all the things that they are entitled to, now realises that in some cases it is harder to live on all they get.....Everyone is entitled to a life...quoted from another thread, This is not a third world country and we are not barbaric, and i know of no-one that refuses some kind of help......
lol has it never occured to you that one of you could work days the other evenings or nights thats what me & my hubby did until ours went to school that way we didnt need a childminder. there is NO excuse in my eyes for not working other than you dont want to [disgust]
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 21:24
So things should be hard if people are on benefits, that's the problem, things are not hard enough to make them want to get off their lazy, useless backsides, it's easier for them to stay at home and get everything handed to them, whats more, they are proud of themselves. [disgust] These people give people who genuinely cannot work a bad name too. IMO the people who are fit to should be made to work for their benefits.
I AGREE. if the government made it more plausable for parents with children to return to work, most of them would, myself included,If we could be sure that our children, no matter how many there are, could have a safe and secure life, being able to work and raise kids, i think i most peoples idea, but some times there are reasons why it is just not meant to be....People criticise without knowing all the true facts.....
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 21:27
lol has it never occured to you that one of you could work days the other evenings or nights thats what me & my hubby did until ours went to school that way we didnt need a childminder. there is NO excuse in my eyes for not working other than you dont want to [disgust]That's the way I was brought up too. My dad worked days and my mum nights What makes these people beleive society owes them? Too many people nowadays are all take, take, take and have nothing to give back. [evil]
So things should be hard if people are on benefits, that's the problem, things are not hard enough to make them want to get off their lazy, useless backsides, it's easier for them to stay at home and get everything handed to them, whats more, they are proud of themselves. [disgust] These people give people who genuinely cannot work a bad name too. IMO the people who are fit to should be made to work for their benefits.
how true lol, give them community work like the community service atleast then they would be putting something back into the community instead of bleeding it dry with their scrounging[disgust]
my dad worked days & my ma nights to and my dad had two jobs, i came from a large family but they didnt need any handouts all that has changed since those days are folk have gotten lazier [disgust]
I doubt many would be capable of doing any work as they don't have a work ethos and are so de-skilled from doing nothing they would need trained, maybe a camp could be set up for these scum, lol.
yeah like an american style boot camp kick their lazy butts into shape :mad:
maybe if they were given food & heating tokens instead of cash it would make them get off their lazy butts
We worked all the hours God sends when our children were small. For some years we had no tv, no car (I had a child seat on my bike), all clothes for myself and the children were second hand, all food was home cooked including bread. Although we both worked, I was part-time outside the home and one of us was always there when the children were at home. This was nothing unusual - most of my friends were the same. Admittedly it was much easier in many ways as there was not the pressure to spend, spend, spend that there is now. How I wish that all the parents who don't really want to spend so much on presents, clothes, parties etc. would get together and say - enough. If they all stopped life would be so much easier for them.
There was a time when people were ashamed to receive government help - many older people still are. You stood on your own feet and if you couldn't afford it you didn't have it. If there were fewer people claiming benefits, those who work might be able to keep a bit more of their hard earned money.
only people with self respect are ashamed to have to claim benefits these days, most of them are proud of they fact they take handouts and really believe they are entitled to them.
what they are entitled to is supporting their own.
but i am not complaining about not being able to go away, and i do not think that i should be able, but i did not ask for this life,it ended up this way and now i am set i the fact that even if i were not pregnant, that i would still have to raise my youngsters....children are better off being raised by people who love them and not just people who get paid for it.....There are many people out there that do work and get working tax credit, child benefit, all the things that they are entitled to, now realises that in some cases it is harder to live on all they get.....Everyone is entitled to a life...quoted from another thread, This is not a third world country and we are not barbaric, and i know of no-one that refuses some kind of help......
you say you did not ask for this life, do you mean you didnt ask for 8+ children?
I am well aware that there are people on benefits who are there through no fault of there own, I was on benefits once myself years ago and no mater how hard i budgeted i COULDNT afford to own a car let alone tax, insure, mot and keep up the running costs and the wear and tear.
No matter how hard you try to make your money stretch it not elasticatedYou have just answered your own question, you could barely manage to survive and others live the life of reilly so It's not the benefits per se that are keeping them in luxury but the way they manipulate the system, i.e, as justine said, couples pretending to be living apart, working and signing and various other methods they use so you could turn your attention to those that cheat the system and not genuine people who have fallen on hard times and use the social for what it was intended.
so what are you saying darkman? that its ok to live on the dole and keep on having kids expecting everyone else to pay for their upkeep.
Like you say yourself its not the benefits per se that are keeping them in luxury.
and as far as i am concerned having a car on the dole is a luxury no matter how old it is, but with 8+ kids in tow i would then say is a darn miracle to have one let alone run it.
so what are you saying darkman? that its ok to live on the dole and keep on having kids expecting everyone else to pay for their upkeep.
Like you say yourself its not the benefits per se that are keeping them in luxury.
and as far as i am concerned having a car on the dole is a luxury no matter how old it is, but with 8+ kids in tow i would then say is a darn miracle to have one let alone run it.So the thread was about justine all along?
I don't know her or her circumstances and it would be wrong of me to comment, but if you wish to discuss dole cheats then I am more than happy to.
The benefit system is nothing but a shambles, there are people that are on benefits that have never worked a day in there life and are running around in a new cars and have everything paid for them :mad: , so am i the stupid one slaving away day in day out trying to make a decent living, instead i could sign on and the rest of you could look after me and my kids.
So the thread was about justine all along?
I don't know her or her circumstances and it would be wrong of me to comment, but if you wish to discuss dole cheats then I am more than happy to.
no the thread was not about justine, it was about folk working the system as you will know if your read my first post
it was her who came into this thread i wasnt even in her thread till she came on here.
Its not my fault if she wants to brag about being proud of being on the dole bring up a load of kids
there are plenty of dole cheats out there and thats why i started this thread
so why are you trying to make out its about her, it wasnt me who brought her name up on this thread anyway
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 23:35
The benefit system is nothing but a shambles, there are people that are on benefits that have never worked a day in there life and are running around in a new cars and have everything paid for them :mad: , so am i the stupid one slaving away day in day out trying to make a decent living, instead i could sign on and the rest of you could look after me and my kids.I quite often wonder whether its us who work that are the dafties. :confused it certainly feels that way sometimes.
connieb19
10-Mar-07, 23:37
So the thread was about justine all along?
I don't know her or her circumstances and it would be wrong of me to comment, but if you wish to discuss dole cheats then I am more than happy to.I dont think it's about anyone in particular, more a case of "if the cap fits".
I dont think it's about anyone in particular, more a case of "if the cap fits".
how true, If anyone takes it personally thats their problem not mine, i dont agree with folk living off the state when they are more than capable of working and supporting their own, i dissagree with it that much that i have even reported a member of my own family of cheating the system and no i dont feel guilty about doing it.
why the heck should i go out and work my butt off to keep them or anyone else.:mad:
hmmm sam it sounds to me as if you are taking a crack at everyone who has ever had benifits no matter the reason?
maybe you should go to china where they have the one child law.. and kill the rest of em they have.. or abandon them to the orphanages..
no the system isnt perfect.. and so sorry you can not have everything you want.
but being petty and snide does not help matters any.
i have been preg. myself 4 times in 4 years..
i have two young children..
i would love to have several..
im the oldest of seven..
i have 7 god brothers and sisters..
so what?
your saying your not taking a crack at justine.. but its been all about people popping out babies and living off benifits with you,
when there are so many many many others you could be going on about..
most likley like the ones in the adverts.. who are hurt.. and take a cash in hand job.. while claiming benifits..
you want to talk about taxes?
my hubby pays out the wazzoo because he makes a good wage..
but we dont begrudge it ..
its the way things are..
my mama always told me .. and this has always stuck with me..
when i started whining bout something she would say
brandy, there are always people better off than you
but remember there are always people a lot worse off than you.
yes they are people out there that play the system.. and one day it will come back on them.
all you can do is live your life. try to be a decent person.
help out where you can.
and one day when you are the one needing the help.. then hopefully there will be some one to give you a hand.
no the thread was not about justine, it was about folk working the system as you will know if your read my first post
it was her who came into this thread i wasnt even in her thread till she came on here.
Its not my fault if she wants to brag about being proud of being on the dole bring up a load of kids
there are plenty of dole cheats out there and thats why i started this thread
so why are you trying to make out its about her, it wasnt me who brought her name up on this thread anywayHeres your quote:
so what are you saying darkman? that its ok to live on the dole and keep on having kids expecting everyone else to pay for their upkeep and as far as i am concerned having a car on the dole is a luxury no matter how old it is, but with 8+ kids in tow i would then say is a darn miracle to have one let alone run it.No name but patently obvious who you are referring to. She didn't brag about being proud of being on the dole and bringing up lots of kids, she started a thread saying that she was pregnant and wished to share her good news, others turned it into a debate about the dole.
right to Brandy & darman where in my first post did i mention anything about anyone having kids?
It wasnt me who brought it up, and i am not going to pussy foot around my views and opinion just because someone might just be offended, because quite frankly i find it offensive that there are people out there willing to spend their lives on the dole not giving a damn about looking for a job, unless they have a good reason for being on the dole in the first place.
if justine isnt happy about what i say then she is more than welcome to air her views
this is not about her its about the 1001 people out there claiming dole and not wanting to work if justine feels she comes under that catagory then thats up to her.
i notice you have nothing to say to the ones who brought kids up in this thread in the first place
you both might be more than happy to work and pay tax for folk to lie on the dole but i am not
this whole thread .. and no sam not only you.. but others have gone on about having kids living on the dole.. ect. ect.
you are the one who did mention justine.. if not by name then def. by the 8+ kids remark.
i agree about benifit fraud.. it is wrong and it should be stopped..
but it is not benifit fraud to have children.
it dosent matter how many kids you have.
tell me when you get old.. and go to draw your gov. pension..
not a private one that you have worked for.. but the gov. one.. and get those benifits.. is there anything wrong with that?
because the tax payers money is what is paying for it.
what about if you become sick, and you have to draw benifits then..
or need to be cared for..
are you going to say no, because you dont want to scrounge off the gov.?
Benifit fraud is a very big and serious thing.
but there is a big big dif. between reciving benifits and cheating people out of money.
nothing in this world is black and white.
wouldnt it be so much easier if it were.. but then again..
so many many people would be in a world of trouble if it was.
there is a lot of things that i want to say right now.. but im not
because i dont want to bring things up.
its all relevant to the subject but its better left unsaid.
i could tell you loads.. how benifits and gov. aid help people in situations that no one has control over..
but its just not worth the pain.
right to Brandy & darman where in my first post did i mention anything about anyone having kids?
It wasnt me who brought it up, and i am not going to pussy foot around my views and opinion just because someone might just be offended, because quite frankly i find it offensive that there are people out there willing to spend their lives on the dole not giving a damn about looking for a job, unless they have a good reason for being on the dole in the first place.
if justine isnt happy about what i say then she is more than welcome to air her views
this is not about her its about the 1001 people out there claiming dole and bot wanting to work if justine feels she comes under that catagory then thats up to her.
i notice you have nothing to say to the ones who brought kids up in this thread in the first place
you both might be more than happy to work and pay tax for folk to lie on the dole but i am notI am quite happy to be working and paying taxes of which a few pennies go to helping the genuinely needy, not for anyone to lie on the dole unneccesarily.
I think we are finally getting to the point which is, there are those that have no intention of working but are also abusing the system through methods I have already stated, that is the real problem and the one that needs to be addressed by the government.
I pay £600 a month in tax. Why? I don't see my council tax going down, or my bin getting emptied more often or feeling safer in my community. Instead I see more crime, more sattelite dishes and more cheeky kids.
I have to pay for glasses and prescritions and don't get reduced rates for swimming or driving lessons or anything else.
I am quite happy to be working and paying taxes of which a few pennies go to helping the genuinely needy, not for anyone to lie on the dole unneccesarily.
I think we are finally getting to the point which is, there are those that have no intention of working but are also abusing the system through methods I have already stated, that is the real problem and the one that needs to be addressed by the government.
that is exactly my point, there are far to many out there who are unemployed and are more than capable of working, there are plenty of jobs out their and for some to say " oh but i have no qualifications" i say bollocks to that.
if you are willing to learn and show willing there are a lot of employers out there who are willing to give you a chance, that i know for a fact as i have had no experiance in the job i am doing now nor did i have experiance in my previous job.
I dont believe that having kids stops you from working either ( no its not a dig at justine ) its a true fact of life
The government needs a major kick up the rear end before they totally knacker this country once and for all
Forgot to add. Because I am single and don't have kids I hardly get any special leave from work, lol:lol:
hmmm sam it sounds to me as if you are taking a crack at everyone who has ever had benifits no matter the reason?
maybe you should go to china where they have the one child law.. and kill the rest of em they have.. or abandon them to the orphanages..
no the system isnt perfect.. and so sorry you can not have everything you want.
but being petty and snide does not help matters any.
i have been preg. myself 4 times in 4 years..
i have two young children..
i would love to have several..
im the oldest of seven..
i have 7 god brothers and sisters..
so what?
your saying your not taking a crack at justine.. but its been all about people popping out babies and living off benifits with you,
when there are so many many many others you could be going on about..
most likley like the ones in the adverts.. who are hurt.. and take a cash in hand job.. while claiming benifits..
you want to talk about taxes?
my hubby pays out the wazzoo because he makes a good wage..
but we dont begrudge it ..
its the way things are..
my mama always told me .. and this has always stuck with me..
when i started whining bout something she would say
brandy, there are always people better off than you
but remember there are always people a lot worse off than you.
yes they are people out there that play the system.. and one day it will come back on them.
all you can do is live your life. try to be a decent person.
help out where you can.
and one day when you are the one needing the help.. then hopefully there will be some one to give you a hand.
Brandy where exactly have i said or implied that it is fraud to have kids.
i know there are a lot of folk a heck of a lot worse of than i am.
but that doesnt mean i have to be gratefull that i pay my tax to keep bone idle folk lying around on the dole
Employers say they want Presentation (how will you represent me) Attitude(how much do you have the same vision as me?) Dependability (do you mean what you say) Aptitude(can I teach you the skills for the job?) Network (does your image fit with mine?)
hmmm sam it sounds to me as if you are taking a crack at everyone who has ever had benifits no matter the reason?
maybe you should go to china where they have the one child law.. and kill the rest of em they have.. or abandon them to the orphanages..
no the system isnt perfect.. and so sorry you can not have everything you want.
but being petty and snide does not help matters any.
i have been preg. myself 4 times in 4 years..
i have two young children..
i would love to have several..
im the oldest of seven..
i have 7 god brothers and sisters..
so what?
your saying your not taking a crack at justine.. but its been all about people popping out babies and living off benifits with you,
when there are so many many many others you could be going on about..
most likley like the ones in the adverts.. who are hurt.. and take a cash in hand job.. while claiming benifits..
you want to talk about taxes?
my hubby pays out the wazzoo because he makes a good wage..
but we dont begrudge it ..
its the way things are..
my mama always told me .. and this has always stuck with me..
when i started whining bout something she would say
brandy, there are always people better off than you
but remember there are always people a lot worse off than you.
yes they are people out there that play the system.. and one day it will come back on them.
all you can do is live your life. try to be a decent person.
help out where you can.
and one day when you are the one needing the help.. then hopefully there will be some one to give you a hand.
go to a country that doesnt have welfare state at all - people dont have more kids than they can afford.
umm hello.. im american!
we never had any help.. and there was seven of us!
theres no NHS
no free dentist..
nadda..
unless you are an immigrant, teen mother (Single), you dont get help period.
even the elderly and infirm get nadda..
to even be eligible for disability your dr. (whom you have to pay to see) has to sign you off as being disabled.. you have to be unemployed a year.. with no benifits or help.. then you can APPLY for disability..
oh yeah i come from the land where you get to choose between.. meds or food when you are elderly.
so yes i know all about living without a welfare system..
and having loads of kids..
its not easy.. and i thank my mama every single day for all she has done and sacrificed for me.
and now as im an adult.. i help her in any and every way i can.
and i always will.
i grew up dirt poor.. but i would not have had it any other way.
I love my LARGE family..
and i wouldnt trade it for all the wealth in the world
Funny cause I was thinking maybe we need the American system here in this country. I grew up dirt poor as well and thought it was good to earn and still do but benefits are too easy to come by here so we need a shift, a change in the way things are run. A shake up, cut the red tape.
The annoying thing about the whole benefits situation is that there are some people out there that have the idea that the government can & will pay for them. (my own cousin for example was more than happy to have a baby at 16/17 and get a council house). The governments solution to this, heck let's send more perks their way. This new plan for schooling for example is let's make all kids stay at school till they are 18, unless they are 16+ and pregnant! How stupid it's just encouraging the younger generation to get pregnant, get free housing etc and never do an honest days work in their life.
And then you have the other poor souls out there who work and work all their lives paying for others, who through no fault of their own have to claim due to illness or redundancy etc and who are given peanuts because they have no dependants etc.
Like some others have mentioned, my parents also worked shifts when I was a baby, literally passing me from one to the other for the first few years of my life and I got hand me down clothes from friends of the family. The government is far to soft on everyone these days.
I do have to disagree with Sam slightly though I’m afraid; one of the problems in Caithness is that there aren't any jobs really. There are lots and lots of houses appearing but no employment to back it up. The situation seems to be getting worse and worse. Is it going to get to the stage where we are all leaving the area or all claiming? But then i think that's a different thread completly!
I do have to disagree with Sam slightly though I’m afraid; one of the problems in Caithness is that there aren't any jobs really. There are lots and lots of houses appearing but no employment to back it up. The situation seems to be getting worse and worse. Is it going to get to the stage where we are all leaving the area or all claiming? But then i think that's a different thread completly![/quote]
Well said, it's true for this area there are plenty jobs but not the right kind and not enough opportunities.
hmmm sam it sounds to me as if you are taking a crack at everyone who has ever had benifits no matter the reason?
maybe you should go to china where they have the one child law.. and kill the rest of em they have.. or abandon them to the orphanages..
no the system isnt perfect.. and so sorry you can not have everything you want.
but being petty and snide does not help matters any.
i have been preg. myself 4 times in 4 years..
i have two young children..
i would love to have several..
im the oldest of seven..
i have 7 god brothers and sisters..
so what?
your saying your not taking a crack at justine.. but its been all about people popping out babies and living off benifits with you,
when there are so many many many others you could be going on about..
most likley like the ones in the adverts.. who are hurt.. and take a cash in hand job.. while claiming benifits..
you want to talk about taxes?
my hubby pays out the wazzoo because he makes a good wage..
but we dont begrudge it ..
its the way things are..
my mama always told me .. and this has always stuck with me..
when i started whining bout something she would say
brandy, there are always people better off than you
but remember there are always people a lot worse off than you.
yes they are people out there that play the system.. and one day it will come back on them.
all you can do is live your life. try to be a decent person.
help out where you can.
and one day when you are the one needing the help.. then hopefully there will be some one to give you a hand.
Obviously where I live the job situation is alot better that in the highlands but my view is there is ALWAYS something you can do to earn money. I get paid quite well for what I do but I still struggle to keep a roof over my head/feed myself/pay the bills and I dont drink and I go out very rarely.
If I suddenly lost my job I would take anything that comes along even a paper round!!!!! As long as it kept me a penny better off.
People now days are too blooming lazy.
sorry Brandy - I didnt mean to put you as a quote in that message!!!
If I suddenly lost my job I would take anything that comes along even a paper round!!!!! As long as it kept me a penny better off.
People now days are too blooming lazy.[/quote]
Me too. I'd still get up early and go out and mend old wifies gates!
no bother.. and i agree people are lazy..
and they do take advantage.. but we can not tarr everyone with the same brush.
what we need is a middle ground.
where people who need benifits get them and the lazy sods who are just milking the gov. have to get a job.
bill clinton had started implememnting a thing when he was pres. but obviously bush didnt carry it out.
it was based on teenage parents.. with little schooling and little job skills.
basically it said..
we understand you are disadvantaged.
however,
we (the gov) will give you childcare,
will train you and make you employable..
hey we will even help you find work..
and give you your benifits the whole time..
however if you do not do this.. then ... dum dum dum dum..
you get nothing..
all help will stop.
we are willing to help you help yourself.
there is a big dif. between cant work/ wont work.
and yes i honsetly think that mothers when at all pos. should be at home with their kids.. but it dosent always work out that way.
when theres only one parent that parent has to work..
and has to make ends meet.
even when theirs two .. alot of times both parents are out working.
but at the end of the day.. there has to be a middle ground.
we cant let it go to the extremes on either end..
That sounds like a good system to me.
Another bug bear of mine is immigrants - but dont even get me started on that!!!!!!!!!!!!![lol]
go to a country that doesnt have welfare state at all - people dont have more kids than they can afford.
Aye right. That is way there is no starving in thirld world countries.
That sounds like a good system to me.
Another bug bear of mine is immigrants - but dont even get me started on that!!!!!!!!!!!!![lol]
Cool! Abuse of the social system and immigrants are the reason for all of our problems! Ever fancied the BNP?
Hi there Rambler, so whats your view on all this then?
Well my view is that there is too much money wasted on wars and too less on the social system. Don't worry, I am full time employed, pay plenty of tax money and am happy to support families.
The fact that there is abuse of the social system should result in action to sort out the abusers and not to change the system!
The second last dentist I had in Caithness was from Kenia and he did an excellent job, the last was polish and he was good too. I was very happy that these immigants were there!
That's my view.
The costs arising from an abuse of the system are really little fish compared with the costs of the 'defense' policy of new labour.
The trouble is that there is too much money wasted on a lot of things by the govenment and like you I am totally against the war and the defence policy.
The social system in this country is deffinately in need of a overhaul as well as the immigration system. I think we are overstreaching the resource too far as it is without even taking into consideration the millions of immigrants that we now have to pay for.
We have had an influx of polish and other immigrants round here taking up jobs because they are willing to work for below the min wage (employers to blame for that one).
My friend used to work for the Home Office and she quit in the end because she couldnt deal with seeing all the underhand stuff that goes on.
As for the BNP - I do agree with some of the things that they have to say. Unfortunately 'BNP Thugs' tend to give the BNP a bad name so the first thing that people think when anyone talks about them tends to be bad.
Have a look on their website sometime its acually quite interesting to see their stance on certain issues.
It's the "underhand stuff" carried out by the apparently most responsible and competent people that spoils the whole party. On high level it's called 'cash for honours' and it goes down to the most local levels. If we could get this mess sorted we wouldn't have to worry about social abuse, imigrants, etc.
But let me say again, the costs involved in the abuse of the system and immigration is nothing against the costs that arise through those old boy networks, poor management of resources, illegal wars and other 'underhand stuff'.
What amazes me is that people who profess to be spending so much time and effort concentrating on work can find the time to study what everybody else is doing. They must have very little to do if that is their main interest.
What I find even more interesting is how many "Medical Experts" there are who can make an accurate medical diagnosis simply by looking at somebody passing by. I'm surprised that we seem to have had trouble getting Doctors to come to the Highlands because it would appear that we are over run with them.
There seems to be an awful lot of generalisation and over active imagination in some cases.
I suggest that all those who are so aware of anybody who is defrauding the Benefit System check the following website:-
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/campaigns/benefit-thieves/report.asp
it explains how to report such people so they can be dealt with appropriately.
If anybody is so concerned about it moaning on here will solve nothing. Use the website and the free phone number you will find there and give them the details. If you can't be bothered then don't complain and if you haven't got any details to give them then you are just making unsubstantiated accusations using nothing but pure guesswork and overactive imagination.
JAWS has hit the nail on the head.
Please, please report the ones that you KNOW are cheating the system. I don't know why more people don't do that as I am sure they would report a "crime" if they saw one.
Or would they?
What amazes me is that people who profess to be spending so much time and effort concentrating on work can find the time to study what everybody else is doing. They must have very little to do if that is their main interest.
What I find even more interesting is how many "Medical Experts" there are who can make an accurate medical diagnosis simply by looking at somebody passing by. I'm surprised that we seem to have had trouble getting Doctors to come to the Highlands because it would appear that we are over run with them.
There seems to be an awful lot of generalisation and over active imagination in some cases.
I suggest that all those who are so aware of anybody who is defrauding the Benefit System check the following website:-
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/campaigns/benefit-thieves/report.asp
it explains how to report such people so they can be dealt with appropriately.
If anybody is so concerned about it moaning on here will solve nothing. Use the website and the free phone number you will find there and give them the details. If you can't be bothered then don't complain and if you haven't got any details to give them then you are just making unsubstantiated accusations using nothing but pure guesswork and overactive imagination.
As i have said in a previous post i have already reported a member of my own family for cheating the system i.e claiming incapacity benefit whilst working claiming to be single whilst liveing with their partner & kids.....
that was almost a year ago and what has been done about it absolutly nothing, and it wasnt for the lack of information either.
So i can understand why some dont bother reporting folk for cheating the system, but on saying that i would still do it because thre is no point in me complaining about folk doing it, if i am just going to sit back and condone it.
There needs to be more money put into the like's of catching fraudsters who are cheating the system, there are far to many of them.
Just as the government need to put more money into the likes of schools and the N.H.S.
someone made refferance to the immigrants working here, well i for one have nothing against them because atleast they are willing to work, if the people here took these jobs there would be none for the immigrants so we shouldnt knock them
JAWS has hit the nail on the head.
Please, please report the ones that you KNOW are cheating the system. I don't know why more people don't do that as I am sure they would report a "crime" if they saw one.
Or would they?
Torvaig, I am with you and Jaws on this one, and this same theme has been gone over before, as a result both Jaws and myself were subjected to some verbal abuse for daring to post the link to the DPW and suggesting that this is the way to go rather than sounding off on CCWS.
Torvaig, I am with you and Jaws on this one, and this same theme has been gone over before, as a result both Jaws and myself were subjected to some verbal abuse for daring to post the link to the DPW and suggesting that this is the way to go rather than sounding off on CCWS.
maybe some of us feel the need to sound off as you put it golach, becaus we are fedup with they way things are and nothing being done when you do report them for it.
it a general forum, so surely we are allowed to air or views and opinions with others & its quite simple as you yourself have been known to say before i"f you are not happy about the thread just dont read it"
connieb19
11-Mar-07, 12:52
They dont need to be cheating the system to be better off than working people, it's understandable why some folk are not even bothering to look for a job. Why go out to work when you can have so many luxuries handed to you for doing nothing. The days of people on the social being hard up are long gone. It's the hard working who have to go without. [disgust]
For them that are haveing problems finding work this is a good place to start .
http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/index.html
i know of one guy that has not worked in over 20 years and has no intention of working. he has been offered jobs, but his own woeds, i get enough on the dole to buy fags and my booze and run my car, so why should i work.
and the ones that get money for their booze because their doctor has said they are alcoholic is disgusting.the government is paying loads out on advertising and help for alcoholics but yet hands them cash in their hands for them to buy the booze. lunatics, that is the nicest word i can type here as to what they are.
i know of one guy that has not worked in over 20 years and has no intention of working. he has been offered jobs, but his own woeds, i get enough on the dole to buy fags and my booze and run my car, so why should i work.
and the ones that get money for their booze because their doctor has said they are alcoholic is disgusting.the government is paying loads out on advertising and help for alcoholics but yet hands them cash in their hands for them to buy the booze. lunatics, that is the nicest word i can type here as to what they are.
the saddest thing about all of this is that there are people who are on the dole through no fault of their own and are really struggling to get by and who do want to work but there seem's to be far more who are more than happy to stay on it.
I know a guy who was married with 2 kids he left his wife went on the dole didnt pay maintanance he then had another 2 kids by another girl and didnt pay for them and he said himself it wasnt worth him looking for a job because of the child maintanance he would have to pay.
That is not right, the government should be doing more to stop this from happening.
connieb19
11-Mar-07, 13:24
the saddest thing about all of this is that there are people who are on the dole through no fault of their own and are really struggling to get by and who do want to work but there seem's to be far more who are more than happy to stay on it.
I know a guy who was married with 2 kids he left his wife went on the dole didnt pay maintanance he then had another 2 kids by another girl and didnt pay for them and he said himself it wasnt worth him looking for a job because of the child maintanance he would have to pay.
That is not right, the government should be doing more to stop this from happening.
It's easier for the government to totally screw the absent parents who are willing to pay for their kids, anything rather than force the scroungers out to work. There's pople out there who have claimed to be single parents for years but keep on having kids to the same bloke, it dosn't take much common sense to see that they are a couple but still nothing gets done about it. [disgust]
well i have to now say that the witch hunt is getting better...I am not offended by any one as this is a free country, and i say free, i did not choose to claim some benefits, i still pay rent, not all but half, i pay council tax.The amount of benefit we get is only a small amount..i was working right up to having the twins, which excuse me, but was very hard work, i did not ask for twins but they are here, and no matter how much you all decide that i am wrong for having kids, i can neither put them back from whence they came and neither would i want to..... why dont you have a go at those that dont want to work, i would love to go back to work, and if any of you that have a spare 16 hrs a week to look after our children so it does not cost the government more money in child care i would go back to work. There might be some out there that have kids so they dont have to work but i can assure you that i am not one of them.......I have paid enough national insurance and taxes to allow me time out...You go on as if i have been on the dole for 20 odd yrs, i calculate 4.......Any way i will have to stop as i have a family that needs me....
[quote=justine;200446] why dont you have a go at those that dont want to work.
That is exactly what this thread is about lol
well i have to now say that the witch hunt is getting better...I am not offended by any one as this is a free country, and i say free, i did not choose to claim some benefits, i still pay rent, not all but half, i pay council tax.The amount of benefit we get is only a small amount..i was working right up to having the twins, which excuse me, but was very hard work, i did not ask for twins but they are here, and no matter how much you all decide that i am wrong for having kids, i can neither put them back from whence they came and neither would i want to..... why dont you have a go at those that dont want to work, i would love to go back to work, and if any of you that have a spare 16 hrs a week to look after our children so it does not cost the government more money in child care i would go back to work. There might be some out there that have kids so they dont have to work but i can assure you that i am not one of them.......I have paid enough national insurance and taxes to allow me time out...You go on as if i have been on the dole for 20 odd yrs, i calculate 4.......Any way i will have to stop as i have a family that needs me....
Good for you Justine; it's a shame that you have to justify yourself though.
This is the problem; everybody gets tarred with the same brush even though those doing the tarring don't know all the facts.
And I bet if you were working, someone would complain "wouldn't she be better off at home looking after her children and someone else could have her job!" ;)
Good luck to you and your family. :)
maybe some of us feel the need to sound off as you put it golach, becaus we are fedup with they way things are and nothing being done when you do report them for it.
it a general forum, so surely we are allowed to air or views and opinions with others & its quite simple as you yourself have been known to say before i"f you are not happy about the thread just dont read it"
I hear what you are saying Sam; it must be so frustrating to have reported someone who is genuinely abusing the system and not seeing anything done about it. If I were you I would follow up your complaint. After all, they do publicise the fact that the authorities need our help. Maybe getting in touch with a sympathetic newspaper would help you in your quest.
And it is also very frustrating to see so much fraud going on around us all the time but, as with all crime, the powers that be do need the general publics help as it would take too many investigators to check up on absolutely everyone on benefits.
And when we are at it, how about all those people who work on the side and don't declare their extra earnings to the tax man. And all the big businesses who use all sorts of methods to avoid tax. Then there are the general public themselves who are quite willing to employ someone to do work for them as a "jobber" and parting with their money knowing that it won't be going on the tax form.
But surely you can understand how someone genuinely on benefits feels hurt when there is a generalisation of those "on the social". Some feel bad enough about themselves without getting it rammed down their throats that they are living off "the hard working people".
Believe me, there are many hard working people who have fallen foul of that same hard work and are no longer able to do so. For many years they have worked hard, paid their taxes etc., and waited until they were almost penniless before claiming their due.
After all, if you pay for fire insurance you claim if you have a fire. If you pay NI contributions you are entitled (that word again) to claim when you are no longer fit to work.
Good for you Justine; it's a shame that you have to justify yourself though.
This is the problem; everybody gets tarred with the same brush even though those doing the tarring don't know all the facts.
And I bet if you were working, someone would complain "wouldn't she be better off at home looking after her children and someone else could have her job!" ;)
Good luck to you and your family. :)
hi there. You are right, they would be compliaing about the amount of child care and working tax credit i would get for the kids and that i should be at home, this is why i dont get peed at the coments because in all of this i am the one that looks after these kids, it a 24/7 job and i am happy to do it....My kids are happy to see my face every morning and when we collect them from school.We do four school runs a day and i enjoy all of them.....i see kids who get picked up by friends relatives and they dont look happy.I would not be able to stand being away from them all day every day for all those that dont think i am right, but i willnever be lonely and after i am no longer on this planet neither will they......
Torvaig.... if you had read all my posts you would know that i do have a genuine sympathy and understanding for those who are on benefits through no fault of their own.
The point that i am making here but that seems to be going amiss is that there are far to many out there who are kicking the backside out of the benefits system and its not fair on those who are genuinely trying to get by and find work.
I have seen friends struggle to get by on benefits whilst looking for employment and its heartbreaking to see someone struggle so much when their neighbours seem to have everything yet not want to work and its even worse when you see someone working all the hours they can get just to pay their bills, yet some of those not working car run around in nearly new cars ( usually people carriers ) go off on holidays etc yet have never done a hands turn in their lives this is what i am on about
I hear what you are saying Sam; it must be so frustrating to have reported someone who is genuinely abusing the system and not seeing anything done about it. If I were you I would follow up your complaint. After all, they do publicise the fact that the authorities need our help. Maybe getting in touch with a sympathetic newspaper would help you in your quest.
And it is also very frustrating to see so much fraud going on around us all the time but, as with all crime, the powers that be do need the general publics help as it would take too many investigators to check up on absolutely everyone on benefits.
And when we are at it, how about all those people who work on the side and don't declare their extra earnings to the tax man. And all the big businesses who use all sorts of methods to avoid tax. Then there are the general public themselves who are quite willing to employ someone to do work for them as a "jobber" and parting with their money knowing that it won't be going on the tax form.
But surely you can understand how someone genuinely on benefits feels hurt when there is a generalisation of those "on the social". Some feel bad enough about themselves without getting it rammed down their throats that they are living off "the hard working people".
Believe me, there are many hard working people who have fallen foul of that same hard work and are no longer able to do so. For many years they have worked hard, paid their taxes etc., and waited until they were almost penniless before claiming their due.
After all, if you pay for fire insurance you claim if you have a fire. If you pay NI contributions you are entitled (that word again) to claim when you are no longer fit to work.
Well said Torvaig, I'm with you 100% on this post.
hi torvaig, i am glad that you are on here, and bringing to light that there are a lot of ways that the tax payer forks out and i am but a small glitch in the system......Thanks and thank you for the kind words on my family....:lol: :roll:
Torvaig.... if you had read all my posts you would know that i do have a genuine sympathy and understanding for those who are on benefits through no fault of their own.
The point that i am making here but that seems to be going amiss is that there are far to many out there who are kicking the backside out of the benefits system and its not fair on those who are genuinely trying to get by and find work.
I have seen friends struggle to get by on benefits whilst looking for employment and its heartbreaking to see someone struggle so much when their neighbours seem to have everything yet not want to work and its even worse when you see someone working all the hours they can get just to pay their bills, yet some of those not working car run around in nearly new cars ( usually people carriers ) go off on holidays etc yet have never done a hands turn in their lives this is what i am on about
Sam, I have no wish to get into a "he, she said" situation; I have read all your posts and that is why I was spurred on to point out what I did but I certainly have no wish to denegrate your point of view.
Please accept my views on behalf of the genuine ones who do get caught up in the "scroungers" fire.
:lol: :cool:I will now have to come in an say that atleast i am supplying the next 8 tax payers of the future......I have one in college,a 12 year old that wants to be a teacher, an 8 yr old that wants to be a vet and even the 3 yr old boy wants to be a bus driver when he is older. They watch us struggle and i think that they will learn from this that it is better to work...They have respect for others and i get many compliments about how good my kids are and i hope that the fact that i recieve some benefits helps me bring them up in the best possible way, well then i have achieved more than most people in a life time would......I am proud of my family and the virtues that they are learning.
Why does every thread on here get turned into a slanging match? Why do people take offence? If the cap fits....
Why are there families with kids out there who manage to work to support themselves and others who don't?
For my money you either have a work ethic or you don't. Anyone with kids no matter how many can work and support them if they wanted too.
I will now have to come in an say that atleast i am supplying the next 8 tax payers of the future......I have one in college,a 12 year old that wants to be a teacher, an 8 yr old that wants to be a vet and even the 3 yr old boy wants to be a bus driver when he is older. They watch us struggle and i think that they will learn from this that it is better to work...They have respect for others and i get many compliments about how good my kids are and i hope that the fact that i recieve some benefits helps me bring them up in the best possible way, well then i have achieved more than most people in a life time would......I am proud of my family and the virtues that they are learning.
Justine, may I thank your children now for the benefits I will need when I am older and in a nursing home, :lol: needing care and attention 24 hours a day! One day we will all reap the benefits of your family!;)
Justine, may I thank your children now for the benefits I will need when I am older and in a nursing home, :lol: needing care and attention 24 hours a day! One day we will all reap the benefits of your family!;)
well thank you torvaig and i hope that my family brings you much happiness in your later years..... If you cant find a nursing home that suits yo requirements then there is a family that would be ahappy to help.......Good luck where ever you go and may your life be as happy as the one i have.......
I really dont think that this thread was started just to have a go at parents that support their kids with the help of the govenment because eveyone that has kids can claim the same thing.
I think that the point of this thread was to discuss the benefit system in general - disabillity allowance, family allowance, job seakers allowance, the NHS and the immigration system as a whole.
I think why people are so miffed with Justine in particular is that people are struggling to have 1 or 2 kids and would probably like to have more but dont because of the financial implications.
Personally I think that 9 kids is a bit excessive and a very big luxury. But saying that Justine you obviously do a good job and at least you dont keep having kids only for them to be farmed out into care which unfortunately many people do.
I really dont think that this thread was started just to have a go at parents that support their kids with the help of the govenment because eveyone that has kids can claim the same thing.
I think that the point of this thread was to discuss the benefit system in general - disabillity allowance, family allowance, job seakers allowance, the NHS and the immigration system as a whole.
I think why people are so miffed with Justine in particular is that people are struggling to have 1 or 2 kids and would probably like to have more but dont because of the financial implications.
Personally I think that 9 kids is a bit excessive and a very big luxury. But saying that Justine you obviously do a good job and at least you dont keep having kids only for them to be farmed out into care which unfortunately many people do.
no this thread was not started as a go against familes with children, but i had 4 whilst working and then i had twins......My god people want me to palm them off and get a job, but that is not in my nature, neither is it good for my kids, and i agree when you say atleast i have all mine..Since moving here three years ago i have seen more people having their kids taken away and i think they dont deserve them, but they all have their reasons...I am not going to judge any one because they make a mistake and neither should i be judged with out all the facts being known....:lol: :eek:
oh and one more thing that is not related to this but i am hear anyway,I will be looking for homes for the 10 baby bunnies that you and all the goverment are helping me raise.........My rabbit gave birth two weeks ago and have 10 lovely babies, any one like one They a going for 25 each...And yes i will be sure to let the government know that i am making 25 a rabbit......Thanks....
connieb19
11-Mar-07, 16:24
oh and one more thing that is not related to this but i am hear anyway,I will be looking for homes for the 10 baby bunnies that you and all the goverment are helping me raise.........My rabbit gave birth two weeks ago and have 10 lovely babies, any one like one They a going for 25 each...And yes i will be sure to let the government know that i am making 25 a rabbit......Thanks....Why don't you keep them all, I bet you would if you got benefits for them. :confused
Why does every thread on here get turned into a slanging match?
It turns out that way because there are some personalities on here that like to wind people up and have little goes at them. They then step back and say "I was just...." or words to that effect or even better effect a holier than thou attitude.
Debate about general situations is is a good thing if both sides present their ideas. It is important to keep it that way and NOT get personal.
When someone speaks about their own situation it becomes open to be discussed and that can lead to even more conflict. If you don't mind your situation being discussed fine but if you don't want your situation discussed don't mention it. I know it is tough on a forum where people like to share their view but it is something to keep in mind.
oh and one more thing that is not related to this but i am hear anyway,I will be looking for homes for the 10 baby bunnies that you and all the goverment are helping me raise.........My rabbit gave birth two weeks ago and have 10 lovely babies, any one like one They a going for 25 each...And yes i will be sure to let the government know that i am making 25 a rabbit......Thanks....
Another 10 babies!!!! That's me out of a home then...;)
no i would not, but hey if they gave benefits for rabbits then people like you would have loads to help you out.......Nice try but i still aint gonna bite......This really getting you lot going........I would keep them all but then i have no room amongst all the humans in the home.....but rabbits are more loving and genuine than most people who have nothing better to do than bitch at others that do a better job with kids than themselves......
connieb19
11-Mar-07, 16:29
no i would not, but hey if they gave benefits for rabbits then people like you would have loads to help you out.......Nice try but i still aint gonna bite......This really getting you lot going........I would keep them all but then i have no room amongst all the humans in the home.....but rabbits are more loving and genuine than most people who have mothing better to do than bitch at others than do a better job with kids than themselves......Please explain what you mean by people like me? "
no torvaig we would manage to squeeze you in....and any one else who likes to have fun are happy to join the breeding program....
well you were the one who brought up the benefits for rabbits, i mean are the brits that daft, i thought that only the americans came up with daft things for pet......I meant people like you as i was talking to you no-one else.You dont like to be judged and niether do i, take what you give with honour or back out....
Justine, if you want off benefits and you like kids so much why don't you set up a child minding business? (and no, probably paid enought to keep your bunnies certainly don't want to buy one!(
I have very mixed felings about this thread but the benefits system needs to change, it is too easy for people to move here, get a house and live off benefits. Or indeed just live off benefits and seem to have a lot more than those that pay their way. Somewhere you implied, Justine, that we could all choose to live off benefits, however, some of us want to pay our way through life - we just don't want to pay everybody elses way as well!
I had better get back to my poor children that are psycholoically damaged due to going to a childminder!
me and hubby joke sometimes about claiming the dole as all the locals here seem to run around in better cars than us and the latest mobile and desighner clothes, but i just couldnt. even if it would be great to have hubby home all the time to help me with the kids, i just couldnt think about claiming off the government. my hubby has a full time job and 2 part time jobs just so we can get by and clothe the kids and feed them healthy meals.
i just couldnt go on the dole as i have a conciense(sp).
working and sending your children to a childminder is your choise.I think it is wrong for children to grow up with others but then it is everyones choise.....I donot judge you because you choose to work, but then you find it right to judge me without knowing all....If i had never worked, i would not bother with this thread, but i have paid all my contributions for over 17 years and what i take time out to look after the kida and it is hey lets all jump on this one....
people on the dole have no concience.So what kind of person am i...I have respect,honour and pride in all i do and what you think it is fine to criticise poeple who end up on benefits..good luck with your life and may it bring you all the things you want....
No one is disputing that fact that you worked before and 'paid your dues' and eveyone is entitled to take time out to raise their children but 9 time outs is a bit much!!!!!
Total agreement with you emszxr. My hubby and I have similar conversations!
Actually the childminder comment was tongue in cheek as my kids very rarely go to a childminder and in fact aren't that young either!! I didn't work when they were young I did work part -time when one was pre-school, my husband worked though. I also had a patch in my life of claiming benefits - I think about a year - I hated it!
Now we do go on family holidays, we have hobbies and interests that we follow and most of the time we enjoy work. Employers on the whole are much more geared towards flexible working and understand a parents family commitments.
i didnt say that cause you are on the dole you have no concience , i was stating i couldnt as i would feel so bad taking it off the government from people who work for a living.
i have not had nine times out, just three,so now what.because i have had time out that makes me a scrounger.......god come into the 21st century......I will return to work when i feel ready and all my kids are in school, which would have been within the next 2 year, but along came another and thats that.........so if you think that i gave up work will all the kids you are mistaken just the twins and the last two......but then all mums should stay at work and forget the kids...NOt ME....
yes and i feel bad, and if their was a better solution i would be first in the queue, but i have not found it...I would love to work from home, i would love to become a mid wife and i will, but i need to do this first.....
i agree with you that the mummy should stay at home and look after the kids til they are in nursery and school. but if there is 2 parents then the father should go to work and earn a living to support his wife and children
2051donna
11-Mar-07, 18:13
Im just glad my wee boy sees he has 2 parents working to give him what he can.. Sadly not many people can say that, thats the best reason why i go to work so he can proudly say that that his mum + dad work.. To be honest i couldnt handle my partner being at home with me all day he would drive me mad! lol
Seriously though when i watched that woman on Wife Swap that claimed it just made me sick.. £37000 a year for what? Having kids.. I love kids but id rather have one or two and give them the best i can than have a dozen and have very little else..
and my husband will go back to work when he feel right to.....As a paarent you know how hard things can get for parents and i am not complaining but we do have that multiplied by 8....My hubby missed out so much before and i dont think that he can be told to get his ass to work and that he should have his pride......well he has done that and so have i......And for the record if i had worked as a civil servant then i would be entitled to 5 years off and my job would still be there.......so who wins....as for children being able to say "i am proud of mum and dad working" well i would rather here my kids saying, who,s gunna get me from school today.....Help me daddy i cant tie my shoes of i need help with going to the toilet....i would rather here that than a minder saying oh, they took there first steps, or look they drew their first picture.There are many arguments for working and not working and if i could do both with the 8 children i would......I am going to leave this thread with the knowledge that i have my childrens needs and wants well and truely sorted...Good luck to you all
think you are missing the point or a very importnat point. we dont or i dont disagree with you saying that you should stay at home and look after your kids, imo this is the right thing to do and this is what i do at present. i saty at home and look after my kids, but the thing is my hubby goes to work and makes a living for his family. there is no need for both parents to be on the dole. one should always work to provide for their family.
and if that was plausable at the moment he would.i would like you to have a day in the house with 8 children and you will realise this is no holiday, it is hard work "not complaining"my choise....there is no right or wrong in this.I cannot undo my children and would not want to.....There are many poeple who choose not to work and have no responsibilities,.they are the scroungers. i am just trying to provide for my kids any way i can....
think you are missing the point or a very importnat point. we dont or i dont disagree with you saying that you should stay at home and look after your kids, imo this is the right thing to do and this is what i do at present. i saty at home and look after my kids, but the thing is my hubby goes to work and makes a living for his family. there is no need for both parents to be on the dole. one should always work to provide for their family.
Very good point. I was fortunate to be able to stay at home with my daughter while Mrs T worked and then we changed places. The Parents are important. Children learn most of their behavior from them. Show them love, hard work and compassion and that is what they will grow up to show others.
Actually, strictly speaking, and I don't particularly mean Justine as I don't know what benefits she and her hubby are on, if one parent is on JSA they are supposed to be looking for work and can't really take the decision to stay at home and live of their JSA. Maybe a change to the system would be to get people who are claiming JSA and can't find work to do some work for the community to "earn" benefits! Hope I don't get linched for that one!!
Also quite often the longer you are out of work the harder it is to get back to work for various reasons.
[QUOTE=Max;200523]Justine, if you want off benefits and you like kids so much why don't you set up a child minding business? QUOTE]
To register as a childminder you can only look after 6 children under the age of 16 and no more than 3 under school age at any one time including your own ones, by the care commission rules, so Justine would have to put her own kids to a childminder to look after other kids!!!
But childminding can be a good earner if you have the neck to charge the higher prices as a lot are doing, i was one of the cheaper ones in the county at £2.25 per hour
why is every one picking on Justine they are alot of others that are falsely claiming in Caithness running almost new cars and sitting in a bought house,
why is every one picking on Justine they are alot of others that are falsely claiming in Caithness running almost new cars and sitting in a bought house,[/quote]
Who is everyone? I've posted on this thread and not mentioned her once and she didn't even enter my head whilst posting. Who cares about Justine? not me. What I care about is that benefits are too easy to come by and that folk are milking them, that's all.
no one is 'picking' on justine - she openly entered into this thread and got involved.
people airing their views and opinions no matter what they is not picking on someone.
no one is 'picking' on justine - she openly entered into this thread and got involved.
people airing their views and opinions no matter what they is not picking on someone.
I made the same point earlier. Don't talk about yourself if you don't want to be talked about. Well said!
I do not think they are picking on me...I joined this thread openly and will take all that i get, but then i have the right to my life like everyone else.....I agree with you all on both issues, and have no worries at all about peoples responses...You should go read the other post i started and see the crap on that one......And that was a joyous one....I thank you all for your time...justine proud mother of 8.....
i know that some people cant help being on benefits and others that just work the system, the system is long overdue a change! Both myself and hubby work and take in a good wage, and i feel that our taxes could be better spent on education and the health service,
I liked the idea of vouchers as then the benefits will be spent on what they are meant for, not mortgages and cars.
i know that some people cant help being on benefits and others that just work the system, the system is long overdue a change! Both myself and hubby work and take in a good wage, and i feel that our taxes could be better spent on education and the health service,
I liked the idea of vouchers as then the benefits will be spent on what they are meant for, not mortgages and cars.
as i have said already if there was food vouchers & heating tokens then there wouldnt be so many so keen to claim benefits, the whole system needs a complete overhaul to stop the ones who milk the system with no intention of seeking work
Do all you people who are complaining about unemployment benefit levels get child tax credits, family working tax credits, family allowances, maternity/paternity/adoption leave/pay/benefits?
And do you see single people or couples who have chosen not to/are unable to have family complaining because they are subsidising your lifestyles?
Personally, I do think it is ridiculous to pay benefits according to the number of children one has..............imo, basic benefits should be set just below statutory minimum wage, and taxed as if earned, and the appropriate child tax credits claimed at a lesser rate than if in work. After all, nobody gets a wage based on the number of children he/she has.................so why should benefits be paid on that basis?
as i have said already if there was food vouchers & heating tokens then there wouldnt be so many so keen to claim benefits, the whole system needs a complete overhaul to stop the ones who milk the system with no intention of seeking work
That's all very well.....but food vouchers and heating tokens don't remove the need for cash for some things.:roll:
Totally agree with a voucher system as well as making those on benefit who are fit and healthy carry out community work ie grass cutting in the summer and keeping our towns and villages clean and tidy. But many of them are work shy and would probably spend the day listening to their i-pods and making calls on mobile phones paid for with our tax pounds!!!
That's all very well.....but food vouchers and heating tokens don't remove the need for cash for some things.:roll:
such as? Other than electricity and clothes I can't think of any other essentials.
such as? Other than electricity and clothes I can't think of any other essentials.
Well, that would kinda depend..........because everybody who loses a regular job doesn't lose any debts already acquired during their working life............and they can't be paid for with food/clothing tokens or heating vouchers....but they have to be paid.
Strikes me you are all intent on punishing those who claim benefits because they have to, for whatever reason, to get at those who claim benefits because they are workshy...........but that will only be until you need to claim, I guess. :roll:
as i have said already if there was food vouchers & heating tokens then there wouldnt be so many so keen to claim benefits, the whole system needs a complete overhaul to stop the ones who milk the system with no intention of seeking workAs you know, not everyone on the dole is there through their own fault and if having a little money in their pockets helps combat low self esteem then that can only be a good thing.
The vouchers idea could be used for those convicted of fraud, cheat the system and lose the hard cash.
Well, that would kinda depend..........because everybody who loses a regular job doesn't lose any debts already acquired during their working life............and they can't be paid for with food/clothing tokens or heating vouchers....but they have to be paid.
Strikes me you are all intent on punishing those who claim benefits because they have to, for whatever reason, to get at those who claim benefits because they are workshy...........but that will only be until you need to claim, I guess. :roll:
Where did you get that from?
I asked a legitimate question to your post. I see benefits as a very important safety net. They are not there for others to pay my debts or anyone else's. If I ever need benefits to provide for basic needs I hope they are there as I hope they are there for others who need them. Would I want them to pay off debts I raised? NO!
As for your deliberately antagonist post, shrug, says more about you than it does about me.
At least it would sort out the genuine claimants from false!! And if I ever have to claim benefits, I can do so with a clear conscience do to the amount I pay into the system every month. And the one and only time I did sign on, which was about 10 years ago, I was made to feel completely responsible for being paid off by those dealing with my claim whilst they were talking and joking with their regular workshy clients!!
Its one thing when these people are flaunting their expensive cars in your face, is it not worse when they even have a private number plate on it too
Naefearjustbeer
12-Mar-07, 01:27
Long term unemployed should be reporting to the council yard every morning and get given a sweeping brush and get sent out to sweep the streets or a shovel to help fill the potholes all over the roads these days before they get any benefits. That way at least they cannot be working on the side for cash in hand jobs. Or lying on there fat lazy backsides watching sky TV on a nice new sofa paid for by the hard working tax payers of this country. Yes some folk need benefits and help but it should be a short term thing until they can find a job. Sick of hearing about folk who are spitting out kids left right and centre just so they can get a council house and benefits its a damn disgrace.
Where did you get that from?
I asked a legitimate question to your post. I see benefits as a very important safety net. They are not there for others to pay my debts or anyone else's. If I ever need benefits to provide for basic needs I hope they are there as I hope they are there for others who need them. Would I want them to pay off debts I raised? NO!
As for your deliberately antagonist post, shrug, says more about you than it does about me.
They might not be there to pay a person's debts..........but they should have the choice of cutting back on food/clothes/heating etc in order to pay them until they get another job...or do you think that becoming unemployed also requires that one loses their home and/or furniture?
I don't see that my post was that antagonistic when you consider those that have gone before. The second paragraph was not aimed at you specifically, but at the impression I have received from the tone of many of the posts.....which are judgemental but with no knowledge just plenty assumptions.
[quote=Oddquine;200792]They might not be there to pay a person's debts..........but they should have the choice of cutting back on food/clothes/heating etc in order to pay them until they get another job...or do you think that becoming unemployed also requires that one loses their home and/or furniture?
Oddquine, you have struck the proverbial nail here, (until they get another job). This means they had one ne the first place and are therefore willing to work and have been unfortunate to lose their job. It is the ones that have never had, have no intention of getting or use every possible excuse not to have a job that are the problem. Not so long ago, I repaired some pot holes nearby my house that the council had chose to ignore even after several calls. I paid for the scalpings, used my own vehicle and trailer to pick them up and obviously spent my own valuable time repairing the potholes so that 1) it kept the place tidy, 2) prevent damage to cars & 3) no one hurt themselves if the tripped over them. Whilst doing this, the young man across the road, who, although perfectly fit and able, has never worked since moving here, sat on his doorstep(of the house we pay for), coffee (which we pay for)in hand, watching me. The temptation to hand him the shovel was almost too great. So, to my mind, people like that should be put to work, even if it is part time. They should not have sky tv (which we pay for) or a car(which we pay for) until they have earned the right to have these luxury items like most of the hard working, tax paying people of this country do.
Why don't we go the whole hog and have "Labour Camps". We can even provide free transport so lazy unemployed can get there, there must be plenty of spare cattle wagons after the Foot and Mouth Epidemic a few years back.
Some of those willing to work can be used to round-up the work-shy, explain the errors of their ways and escort them to the Rail Yards.
You never know, Our Leader might even be proud of you
crashbandicoot1979
12-Mar-07, 12:16
If a woman works, then decides to take a couple of years off to raise a family then I have no problem with that whatsoever. What I have a problem with is girls I went to school with who started producing children at 16, now have 4 or 5 of them, have never worked a day in their lives yet earn almost a grand a month more than me. I'm sorry if I sound insensitive by saying this but I worked since I was 15 and I still don't "earn" as much as them. I do sometimes wonder why I bother but then I think that I would never have the nerve to have lived like that, plus it would have broke my parent's hearts if I'd turned into a pure scrounger. My dad has worked all his life (apart from a very brief spell of unemployment) and my mum returned to work when I was 12 weeks old, and again when my sister was 12 weeks old. Granted, this isn't for everyone but we were lucky enough to be brought up by an aunt and uncle who we looked upon as a second set of parents, and I have the upmost respect for my mother and the choices she made. As for my grandparents, one set had 6 children, one set had 9 children and both my grandads worked hard to support them. Its an absolute disgrace that parents can spend their entire working lives living off the state - what sort of example is that for their children? Apathy breeds apathy. End of story.
As for benefit cheats, I have reported 2 different individuals for fraud, one of which I know has been dealt with, so I am happy to put my money where my mouth is.
Penelope Pitstop
12-Mar-07, 12:55
JAWS has hit the nail on the head.
Please, please report the ones that you KNOW are cheating the system. I don't know why more people don't do that as I am sure they would report a "crime" if they saw one.
Or would they?
I agree with this too. There are people that you KNOW are claiming and working for cash, I'd have no hesitation in reporting them.
If they are fit to work on the "side" then they are fit to get out and get a job.
I work full time and am quite happy to contribute to pay towards those that can't work due to ill health, pensioners, war heros, etc., but why should I work my guts out to pay for the lazy tossers who don't want to work because they are better off claiming benefits.[disgust]
Through my work, I can think of several occasions where folk have been offered a job, but have turned their nose up at it because they wouldn't be much better off than on the brew taking into account their housing benefit, child benefit, etc, etc. (By the way I went back to the job centre and told them they had been offered the work.)
What's happend to these people.....have they no pride? What sort of example is it for their children?
For goodness sake parents should lead by example.
Yes I agree. If you are really well off and don't have to live off benefits and pay your way then yes both parents can decide not to work to bring up their kids, and like you guys I don't have a problem with one parent taking time off to bring up kids but I can't abide this attitude of it's our right to claim benfeits and allow the tax payers to keep our family. I know there are some who are in this situation through no fault of their own - but not all!
j4bberw0ck
12-Mar-07, 19:05
We have a father and mother over on Skye who have over twenty kids.All their own.
Assuming 21 kids, that's £13,520 p.a. Child Benefit alone (since it's untaxed, it equates to a gross earned income of about £17,000) :eek: and presumably WTC and other stuff besides.
But on balance I think I'd rather have a life and do without the £13,520 + other bennies :lol: .
(Thought I'd better post this here and not in the other thread)
rockchick
12-Mar-07, 19:47
They might not be there to pay a person's debts..........but they should have the choice of cutting back on food/clothes/heating etc in order to pay them until they get another job...or do you think that becoming unemployed also requires that one loses their home and/or furniture?
If there's enough leeway in their budget to cut back on food and heating, then obviously they're getting too much! No way should you use your benefits for paying off your debts. That's not what they are there for.
j4bberw0ck
12-Mar-07, 20:20
I see benefits as a very important safety net. They are not there for others to pay my debts or anyone else's
do you think that becoming unemployed also requires that one loses their home and/or furniture?
Mortgages and loan repayments can all be insured against loss of earnings from sickness, accident or redundancy. People don't because of course it'll never happen to them. It isn't even necessary to buy the overpriced insurance from your mortgage lender or loan company or credit card company.
People who don't insure need to have some other way of repaying. Full stop. The taxpayer provides cover for the inescapable expenses of life in the form of benefits; loans and credit are strictly optional and I see no reason why the taxpayer should cover them too.
Alice in Blunderland
12-Mar-07, 21:03
In answer to the question posed at the start of this thread .....Yes the government can be seen as being too lenient.... What is the answer ? I dont know but whatever it is it is a long way off from being implemented.
My husband and I both work ,he full time and I part time and between us we are raising five children. I realise that there are some people out there who are out to get whatever they can from this system and those who are not. It is like all things in life the minority spoil it for the majority.
A few years ago now I found myself in the postion of being a single mum with three children and applying for benefits, it wasnt easy. The money which I recieved was needed to feed and clothe my kids and keep a roof over their heads. If as has been suggested in some threads that the money be cut for vouchers and only the most basic of needs met then I would have been in the situation of having to scrabble around even more than I did. I must have been doing something wrong as I never found it as easy as some of the posts suggest. Some months I barely had enough to put a decent meal on the table but I was proud and I did the best for my children and did not ask for a penny more than I was entitled too. I managed to not have to give up my part time job and struggled through, if my benefits had been cut back, the main people who would have suffered would have been my children. :(
I am now remarried and both my husband and I pay taxes each month to the government. Yes it is hard when you see your gross pay compared to your net and yes you can feel resentfull but this is a fact that in this country we all pay tax (if we work and earn enough ) The way I look at it is that if the government have made the system so easy to abuse then it is up to them to fix it as they are wasting precious money.
If someone has worked and should find themselves unemployed for a while or should their personal circumstances change then it is important that there be a safety net to catch them ....the problem is when the safety net becomes a comfort blanket that we dont want to let go off. :)
Penelope Pitstop
12-Mar-07, 21:57
I am going to leave this thread with the knowledge that i have my childrens needs and wants well and truely sorted...Good luck to you all
....but who's working to pay for it !!:confused
blondscot
12-Mar-07, 23:44
and my husband will go back to work when he feel right to.....As a paarent you know how hard things can get for parents and i am not complaining but we do have that multiplied by 8....My hubby missed out so much before and i dont think that he can be told to get his ass to work and that he should have his pride......well he has done that and so have i......And for the record if i had worked as a civil servant then i would be entitled to 5 years off and my job would still be there.......so who wins....as for children being able to say "i am proud of mum and dad working" well i would rather here my kids saying, who,s gunna get me from school today.....Help me daddy i cant tie my shoes of i need help with going to the toilet....i would rather here that than a minder saying oh, they took there first steps, or look they drew their first picture.There are many arguments for working and not working and if i could do both with the 8 children i would......I am going to leave this thread with the knowledge that i have my childrens needs and wants well and truely sorted...Good luck to you all
Having such a large family is fine but although your husband has worked and missed out on so much as you say, was he working 24 hours a day? as there is time to spend with his family after work, many fathers wish that they could stay at home to watch their kids grow but they cant as they need to provide for their family and if the mother is at home then the kids are not being farmed out to childminders, but many parents have family members to help watch the bairns and dont use childminders! How will your children feel as they get older and want more fashionable things and dont want hand me downs they want to be like their friends, although they may understand the stiuation they will resent you deep down, if their pals ask what does your dad do can they say with pride hes on the dole!! Kids think different than adults and want to be liked by the other kids especially when they are not from around here they want to have the same fashions and have the same stuff, and living on the brew does not allow that to happen!! What happens when they want their own private space as they get older a room of their own? and unless you live in a mansion i dont think that possible, who will they blame for not being able to have their own room? their parents who else!!!
Having to look after so many kids while on benefits i would have thought that having cats and rabbits would not have been possible as they are expensive to look after properely, and it would have been more responsable to ensure that the rabbits did not breed as the female needs three times her normal food rations when nursing her young and that is an awful lot of vegetable to be buying which aint cheap! What will you do if you cant find people to buy them, as folk can buy a baby rabbit from the sspca for a fiver which is a lot less than you are asking for, can you afford to keep them properely if you find you are stuck with them ?
justine,just on the off chance you have a last look on this thread ,when i first read about your good news on the other post regards to your pregnancy,even though it was on the back of my mind to the cost of the tax payers to the amount of children you already have,at that point it was fine by me because none of us new your finacial and working situation.But to be honest some of your exscuses for being pregnant are a bit thin,The pill not agreeing with you,heavy bleeding,Might even have been dare i say it religion.My mrs was the same,four kids down the line,(snip)no more kids,no exscuses,not that it was anyone elses bisnness.but some of the things that have been said on this thread and privouse one,eg,not having enough rooms,dont make me laugh we cant get them to there own beds at night.and thats with two rooms to spare.We all love each others company.Im even thinking of down sizing due to the fact(no chance where the wifes concerned,she cannie stand me being to close)Having fashional clothes, toys,cat,dog,and a couple of gerbils,till they got fed up with them.wanting your kids to be liked by otheres,its all peer presure.A lot of the way kids think come from mum and dad,I know ours do.It all boils down to how they:r brought up.justine is in the minority these days but the way things are heading were the ones that could be relying on them.My only real advice next time if there is one keep it to your self and close family .all the bast.
The vast majority of people on benefits want to work. There are very few true "scroungers". Some people cant see a way to work... they cant see how to overcome the problems they have and get and hold down a job but most people want to work. Mostly you will find that even when people are cocky and "Im alright Jack" on benefits they cover up their true feelings and would prefer to be working and earning a living. Those on incapacity benefit often have hidden disabilities that mean that they look like they are well enough but they arent.
I have mentioned my friend before - she has hepatitis C which she got as a result of an infected blood transfusion in 1990. She can no longer work and gets incapacity benefit, she also gets a pension from her ex employer. Now people who dont know that will see that she is on benefits but there is not much wrong with her visually, she has a land rover provided through motability ( she cant walk far) She lives in a council house for which she pays rent cos Incapacity benefit doesnt qualify her for her rent to be paid, She goes away on two or three holidays a year, she has sky and a computer, nice clothes and manages her money very well. To outsiders looking in though, she has all this stuff when she is on benefits. However she worked long enough to qualify for incapacity benefit and she has her pension.
The thing is - you dont know what somoenes circumstances are. You dont. You dont know if their mum, brother, sister or whoever pays for sky for them, you dont know if they have other income in addition to benefits, you dont know their medical details or their backgrounds and yet people stand in judgement.
If you want to tackle benefit issues then fraudulent claiming of benefit is the way to do that not by targetting those people who need support and assistance or bringing back the means test that meant if you had four chairs in a household of three people you had to sell one or creating a further stigma by issuing vouchers.
Penelope Pitstop
13-Mar-07, 12:03
The vast majority of people on benefits want to work. There are very few true "scroungers". Some people cant see a way to work... they cant see how to overcome the problems they have and get and hold down a job but most people want to work. Mostly you will find that even when people are cocky and "Im alright Jack" on benefits they cover up their true feelings and would prefer to be working and earning a living. Those on incapacity benefit often have hidden disabilities that mean that they look like they are well enough but they arent.
I have mentioned my friend before - she has hepatitis C which she got as a result of an infected blood transfusion in 1990. She can no longer work and gets incapacity benefit, she also gets a pension from her ex employer. Now people who dont know that will see that she is on benefits but there is not much wrong with her visually, she has a land rover provided through motability ( she cant walk far) She lives in a council house for which she pays rent cos Incapacity benefit doesnt qualify her for her rent to be paid, She goes away on two or three holidays a year, she has sky and a computer, nice clothes and manages her money very well. To outsiders looking in though, she has all this stuff when she is on benefits. However she worked long enough to qualify for incapacity benefit and she has her pension.
The thing is - you dont know what somoenes circumstances are. You dont. You dont know if their mum, brother, sister or whoever pays for sky for them, you dont know if they have other income in addition to benefits, you dont know their medical details or their backgrounds and yet people stand in judgement.
If you want to tackle benefit issues then fraudulent claiming of benefit is the way to do that not by targetting those people who need support and assistance or bringing back the means test that meant if you had four chairs in a household of three people you had to sell one or creating a further stigma by issuing vouchers.
I think it is fair to say that NO ONE on this forum grudges benefits to the people who really do need it.
No one knows when they may become unemployed and need help to fill the stop gap till they find another job. Or indeed may develop health issues that only enables them to work longterm/shorterm.
Most people's problem here is with those that are quite content to let others go out and work to pay for them not to have to:~( .
Make no mistake that folk who go out to work have the same problems as anyone else with the problems over child care, etc, but they seem to overcome it (because they want to overcome it!!). I don't have a problem with one of the parents staying at home with the children until they are school age (child care isn't such a problem after the children start school)
I think it is fair to say that NO ONE on this forum grudges benefits to the people who really do need it.
No one knows when they may become unemployed and need help to fill the stop gap till they find another job. Or indeed may develop health issues that only enables them to work longterm/shorterm.
Most people's problem here is with those that are quite content to let others go out and work to pay for them not to have to:~( .
Make no mistake that folk who go out to work have the same problems as anyone else with the problems over child care, etc, but they seem to overcome it (because they want to overcome it!!). I don't have a problem with one of the parents staying at home with the children until they are school age (child care isn't such a problem after the children start school)
But what Squidge is saying is that all the cases cited on here may not be scroungers, but perfectly legitimate claimants......and how would anyone know if they weren't told?
Either someone knows.............and reports................or guesses and makes assumptions which then engender posts like those on here.
I really do hope none of you are ever in the position of being thrown on benefits and unable to/ incapable of getting employment and then have to read intemperate and judgmental posts like these.
Penelope Pitstop
14-Mar-07, 12:38
But what Squidge is saying is that all the cases cited on here may not be scroungers, but perfectly legitimate claimants......and how would anyone know if they weren't told?
Either someone knows.............and reports................or guesses and makes assumptions which then engender posts like those on here.
I really do hope none of you are ever in the position of being thrown on benefits and unable to/ incapable of getting employment and then have to read intemperate and judgmental posts like these.
Did you read my post!!!! lol..... First line said:
I think it is fair to say that NO ONE on this forum grudges benefits to the people who really do need it.
Second line ......about unemployment.....
No one knows when they may become unemployed and need help to fill the stop gap till they find another job. Or indeed may develop health issues that only enables them to work longterm/shorterm.
As has been said before if someone KNOWS of anyone cheating the system they should be reported. No one said anything about reporting people they guessed or had a judgement about.
As for posts being judgemental.......I'd say folk on the org have very strong views about this topic..........surely everyone is entitled to their opinion.
People DO judge though - they see someone who hasnt worked for years - even on the side and they make assumptions that they are a lazy so and so. I remember a lad in the eighties who was disabled and hadnt worked for about 5 years he was desperate for a job of some sort so he went to the jobcentre where his wife created all this carry on because she wanted him at home with their children and was scared to DEATH that if he went to work they wouldnt be able to make ends meet or pay their rent and rates as it then was. He had ALL that to sort out before he could even think about getting work, All in all he needed some training and it took about a further 2 years before he was able to get a job.
The one thing i find is that people always assume they know someone's circumstances and that they are better in some way than them and have the right to judge. You dont know their finances and circumstances, you arent any better than them and you dont have the right to judge precisely because you dont know their circumstances.
People DO judge though - they see someone who hasnt worked for years - even on the side and they make assumptions that they are a lazy so and so. I remember a lad in the eighties who was disabled and hadnt worked for about 5 years he was desperate for a job of some sort so he went to the jobcentre where his wife created all this carry on because she wanted him at home with their children and was scared to DEATH that if he went to work they wouldnt be able to make ends meet or pay their rent and rates as it then was. He had ALL that to sort out before he could even think about getting work, All in all he needed some training and it took about a further 2 years before he was able to get a job.
The one thing i find is that people always assume they know someone's circumstances and that they are better in some way than them and have the right to judge. You dont know their finances and circumstances, you arent any better than them and you dont have the right to judge precisely because you dont know their circumstances.
squidge, while you tend to keep pointing out about people you know that are on benefits with valid reasons that is all fair and well, but this thread was started about those who DONT want to work or who CHEAT the stysyem in one way or another,lets face facts here no one on benefits legally can afford to buy nearly new cars, go on holidays abroad, buy the latest mobile phone, clothes etc, this is what i am talking about & before you go off on one saying there are very few people who are actually like that, open your eyes lol look around you and pay atention because these folks have no qualms about bragging about all these things whilst on the dole.
I have seen & heard it, i even have a relative who braggs about not having to work because they could never be this well off, and yes I HAVE reported them and what was done sweet nothing. so please dont patronise all the decent working folk and those who are genuine & on benefits by saying they are few and far between its insulting to us [disgust]
Is the government to lenient on people claiming benefits or is it just that they know how to work the system?
How is it that someone on benefits can afford a car & the running costs, sky t.v, house phone & mobile phone, holidays, computer & broadband and still be able to smoke and go on nights out?
My hubby & I both work full time, we dont smoke, never have a night out & yet there is very little left over after the bills are paid, so how on earth do people on benefits manage it? & before some of you get on your high horse telling me that this isnt the case, i know of a good few folk who are on benefits and seem to manage it no problem.
I have friends who work full time yet they cant afford to take time of when they are sick for fear of getting behind in their rent, council tax and other bills.
So how is it possible for folk on benefits to manage i would really like to knowI see nothing there which says anything to indicate that the thread is only about those who CHEAT.
All I see is an unfounded assumption that those on Benefit are living a life of luxury and have no right to be on Benefits, which is patently untrue.
Your opening comment exposes what your assumptions are when you ask, "Is the government to lenient on people claiming benefits or is it just that they know how to work the system?"
You indicate "people claiming benefits" which indicates you are speaking of ALL people claiming benefits.
You then go on to imply that those same people "know how to work the system" again indicating that you are saying that they ALL only on benefits because they are cheating by working the system.
Your claim to squidge that the thread is not about all those on benefit but only about
those who DONT want to work or who CHEAT is not born out by your original post which, in fact, displays the very thing you claim you are not saying.
Squidge is absolutely spot on with her interpretation of your post and as very accurate in her response. It is obvious that you have a very jaundiced opinion of all people on benefits and the tone of your initial post indicates that you believe they are all making fraudulent claims and making false declarations in order to do so.
Jaws i would say that you are one of a small majority that see only what you want to see in peoples posts, i DO NOT have a problem with genuine people who are on benefits as i have already said and as for my suppossed unfounded assumptions well what exactly is it that you have difficulty in understanding when i say that i have heard people openly brag about not wanting to work because they are far better off on benefits, it seems that you are only to willing to make your own assumptions.
But i see no point whatsoever in wasting my time trying to get the small majority like yourself to see what i am saying as you cant seem to see past your own opinions. you obviously think it is right to cheat the system, but i wont jump to conclussions on that score.
I may not have been clear enough in my first post for some, but that is the small majority who are exactly aware of what the thread is about but just want to stir things up after all Jaws it isnt the first time you have tried to stir up a thread is it, but hey whatever keeps you amused lol
I am well aware of where the stirring is coming from and exactly what the initial post was intended to portray. Your first post make no distinction whatsoever between the few dishonest people who defraud the system and the vast majority who are genuine claimants.
It was only when the comments in your first post were challenged that you introduced the claim that it was only about those who don’t want to work or are cheating. If that is what you intended the thread to be about then why did you fail to mention it from the start.
You made a sweeping generalisation about people on benefit. Those who disagree with what you say are not "stir things up" they are simply pointing out a different opinion.
You are entitled to express your views and others are just as equally entitled to put alternative views.
People DO judge though - they see someone who hasnt worked for years - even on the side and they make assumptions that they are a lazy so and so. I remember a lad in the eighties who was disabled and hadnt worked for about 5 years he was desperate for a job of some sort so he went to the jobcentre where his wife created all this carry on because she wanted him at home with their children and was scared to DEATH that if he went to work they wouldnt be able to make ends meet or pay their rent and rates as it then was. He had ALL that to sort out before he could even think about getting work, All in all he needed some training and it took about a further 2 years before he was able to get a job.
The one thing i find is that people always assume they know someone's circumstances and that they are better in some way than them and have the right to judge. You dont know their finances and circumstances, you arent any better than them and you dont have the right to judge precisely because you dont know their circumstances.
I agree with you Squidge. I know someone who is on incapacity benefit having taken early retirement through ill-health, can't claim anything else because they worked hard, paid off their mortgage in about five years, didn't have expensive holidays or all the entrapments of modern life that some others think necessary to have a life.
This person then moved house to where people didn't know them and mistakenly mentioned the I.B. to a neighbour with whom they had made good friends and watched her face change immediately and hear the incredulity in her voice as she said "You're on benefits!"
Lesson learned that day? Don't be too honest or ye will be judged! ;)
Penelope Pitstop
16-Mar-07, 11:14
[quote=Torvaig;201932]I agree with you Squidge. I know someone who is on incapacity benefit having taken early retirement through ill-health, can't claim anything else because they worked hard, paid off their mortgage in about five years, didn't have expensive holidays or all the entrapments of modern life that some others think necessary to have a life.
I too know someone like you mention in your post (I dare say many people on the org do as well). Story........He worked all his life from age 14 to 50 when he had to retire through cronic disability. He was very carefull with his income, no luxury items, no fancy holidays, no nights out, didn't drink or smoke, etc, etc. just tried to save for that rainy day that he and his wife knew was coming. But blow me, he and his wife would be better off now if they had spent every last penny for all the help they get.
Know someone else who got redundance type payment through work £25K (was in 30s at the time). Blew the whole lot on luxury pressies, holidays, etc for his family because if he kept it he wouldn't be entitled to any benefits. (Bye the way this isn't my opinon of what he did......he was quite proud of his foresight.)
So the way things seem to be (again, this is only in my opinion):
1. Work hard, save, don't spend and we'll give you no help because you have looked out for your own rainy day.
2. Don't work, spend everying, and we'll look after you.....:confused
Again, I'm not getting at the folk who can't work, just those than can, but choose not to.
The irony is that the vast majority of those that can't work would give their right arm to go out and work if only they could.:~(
j4bberw0ck
16-Mar-07, 12:07
There's a lot of sense in what PP is saying. It is a fact that because of the way the benefits system works, people who are encouraged to be responsible and to save for their old age in a pension scheme - and I mean a private sector pension scheme, not a public sector (funded or unfunded) pension scheme linked to salary - can find themselves after a lifetime of saving getting exactly the same income in retirement as the wastrel next door who never saved a penny.
In fact, with annuity rates as they are just now, get this - the first (roughly) £100,000 of your pension fund will go to satisfying the Government's Minimum Income Guarantee, which means you'll get no top up from the State (the precise figure depends on lots of variables such as age at retirement, state of health and so on but £100,000 will do as a guide).
Which is another way of saying that if you have no pension scheme, or a small pension fund, the State will pay you for failing to provide. And just as a matter of interest, would you care to hazard a guess at the value of the average pension fund amongst employees in the UK? About £25,000.
If ever there was a case for a "Citizen's Pension" this is it; everyone gets a flat rate regardless, and any savings / pension you contribute to on top is yours. As much as I loathe much of the LibDems naivete, this is one of their policies I can buy in to, though I notice Danny Alexander as Pensions spokesman has gone very quiet in the past couple of years.
Now, if we could just combine a Citizen's Pension with a flat rate income tax and taxation of benefits as though they were earned income we might be able to move forwards to a fairer society and one that rewards people for effort.
<Decides to stop typing before he gets on to MPs' and Cabinet Ministers' pensions..... not good for my blood pressure or vocabulary>
I am well aware of where the stirring is coming from and exactly what the initial post was intended to portray. Your first post make no distinction whatsoever between the few dishonest people who defraud the system and the vast majority who are genuine claimants.
It was only when the comments in your first post were challenged that you introduced the claim that it was only about those who don’t want to work or are cheating. If that is what you intended the thread to be about then why did you fail to mention it from the start.
You made a sweeping generalisation about people on benefit. Those who disagree with what you say are not "stir things up" they are simply pointing out a different opinion.
You are entitled to express your views and others are just as equally entitled to put alternative views.
I have already said that i could of explained myself better in my original post so why are you trying to twist it round to make it look like i started it to cause trouble?
The main reason i started the thread is because i am pretty cheesed off that a relative of mine has been cheating the system i have reported it twice and still nothing has been done about it, which i have explained aswell in a previous post if you had bothered to read my posts you would know this, and there are plenty more cheating the system for by them
so what exactly are you trying to say by your comment that you are well aware where the stirring is coming from & exactly what the initial post was ment to portray?
I can only apologise for not being as perfect as you seem to think that you are, Just because my first post wasnt clear enough, what a major crime.
most of the folk didnt seem to have a problem knowing what i ment.
I tend to look at things in reality Jaws, not through some rosey tinted glasses.
I have been on benefits myself in the past and know only to well how hard it is.
That & having some self respect is why i took the first job i could get, There are plenty of jobs out there if people really want to look hard enough for them and not be fussy about what job they do, there are even employers who are more than willing to give unexperianced folk a chance.
why dont you check this out and read the replies at the bottom of it.
this is the sort of thing i am on about.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...#StartComments (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23386433-details/Jobless%20mother%20on%20ýý500%20a%20week%20benefit s%20is%20ordered%20back%20to%20work/article.do?expand=true#StartComments)
connieb19
16-Mar-07, 21:23
why dont you check this out and read the replies at the bottom of it.
this is the sort of thing i am on about.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...#StartComments (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23386433-details/Jobless%20mother%20on%20ýý500%20a%20week%20benefit s%20is%20ordered%20back%20to%20work/article.do?expand=true#StartComments)
And these are the sort of people we're expected to show sympathy to..:roll:
And these are the sort of people we're expected to show sympathy to..:roll:
well my sympathy will go to the genuine folk on benefits not the likes of these [disgust]
crashbandicoot1979
16-Mar-07, 21:39
well my sympathy will go to the genuine folk on benefits not the likes of these [disgust]
Exactly. Some folk can't work, for whatever reason but those that are healthy enough should be out there making a living with the rest of us. The fact that its the likes of me that are supporting them is bad enough, but they give a bad name to those who genuinely can't work. The wifie in the article is right about one thing - the world has definitely gone mad! Imagine being able to earn more in benefits that you can earn in a job! Sad.
j4bberw0ck
16-Mar-07, 23:37
Imagine being able to earn more in benefits that you can earn in a job! Sad.
Imagine living in a country where half the households depend on benefits for half their incomes. That's the UK, folks. Except G Brown, Figure Fudger Extraordinaire, dresses many benefits up as tax credits so they appear as negative taxation in public accounts, instead of benefits.
It should NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you're beholding to the Government for half your income, you're going to vote the same lot back in again. That's what Brown has done; made half the voters of the country dependent on him for half their income.
It should be illegal, or classed as corruption.
Imagine living in a country where half the households depend on benefits for half their incomes. That's the UK, folks. Except G Brown, Figure Fudger Extraordinaire, dresses many benefits up as tax credits so they appear as negative taxation in public accounts, instead of benefits.
And absolutely none of the respondents on this thread get a penny from the government which is contributed by people who are not in a position to avail themselves of the same benefits?
There are no families who get tax credits of various kinds which have compulsory contributions from those who have no families? :confused
Could you explain the difference between donating to tax credits/child benefit if one is single and/or childless and at work and benefits generally if one is at work?
There can be few in this country who are not providing to others benefits they have never needed.................but they do it as an insurance against the day they might.............just as we provide for basic pensions.
It should NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you're beholding to the Government for half your income, you're going to vote the same lot back in again. That's what Brown has done; made half the voters of the country dependent on him for half their income.
It should be illegal, or classed as corruption.
Don't talk troch! Or do you think that every Lib-dem, Tory, SNP, Green and SSP voter in Scotland are fully employed! [lol]
I have already said that i could of explained myself better in my original post so why are you trying to twist it round to make it look like i started it to cause trouble?
The main reason i started the thread is because i am pretty cheesed off that a relative of mine has been cheating the system i have reported it twice and still nothing has been done about it, which i have explained aswell in a previous post if you had bothered to read my posts you would know this, and there are plenty more cheating the system for by them
so what exactly are you trying to say by your comment that you are well aware where the stirring is coming from & exactly what the initial post was ment to portray?
I can only apologise for not being as perfect as you seem to think that you are, Just because my first post wasnt clear enough, what a major crime.
most of the folk didnt seem to have a problem knowing what i ment.
I tend to look at things in reality Jaws, not through some rosey tinted glasses.
I have been on benefits myself in the past and know only to well how hard it is.
That & having some self respect is why i took the first job i could get, There are plenty of jobs out there if people really want to look hard enough for them and not be fussy about what job they do, there are even employers who are more than willing to give unexperianced folk a chance.
So the reason you started your thread is because you have a distant relative who, as far as you are concerned, should not be on Benefit. You have reported the person, because of your concern about Benefit Fraud, and the Authorities, for whatever reason they have for doing so, have taken a different point of view to yours.
As you very well know, people committing Benefit Fraud are traced and prosecuted. That is confirmed by your thread of 3rd September last year where you produced details of numerous occasions of that happening and expressed your delight.
I also believe you stated that such people should be "Named and Shamed". Well they obviously were because you, at that time, gave a whole list of information about such prosecutions.
In that Thread you were saying you were delighted that something was being done, in this Thread you are complaining that nothing is being done.
The problem seems to be in the cases were you decide action should be taken and the Authorities take a different view which means that the people concerned have not been “Named and Shamed”.
By far the vast majority of people on Benefit are in that position for very genuine reasons. .
I am glad you have clarified that you are only complaining about that extremely small minority who are actually committing Fraud as opposed to those people who are imagined to be committing fraud because people making such accusations have no idea of the true circumstances.
My relative should be prosecuted lol, regardless of how you look at it, they have a partner & 4 kids, i know for a fact that he claims to be living seperate from her, he gets incapacity benefit due to ill health and a bad back, yet he still manages to work at night lifting heavy things ( i have seen him myself )he is fit and well and she gets dole money, he has even admited this and has told me that as far as he is concerned he makes more doing this than he would if he had a proper job.
so tell me how do you work out this is all just imaginery accusations, It is proof that when someone is reported it is not always followed through.
I know of a few others who claim that they have bad backs yet can do work such as car mechanics, building work, labour work...... so how is this possible if as you say if they are reported it is always followed up. ( i know that these folk have been reported aswell by others)
there are some cases that have been reported and people prosecuted but this is not always the case. That is what i am complaining about but i am sure you already know all this you are just knit picking through my posts and selecting the bits that you want, thats fair enough if thats what keeps you happy, you obviously have plenty of time on your hands
yes in previous threads i have said they should be named & shamed and i still stand by that after all its because of folk like that who are wrecking the system for the decent folk, and Jaws i belive that it is a large minority that are milking the system not a small minority, i know of atleast 20 families in a small area of caithness alone so when you think of all the others around the country its not such a small minority then, but no doubt you will dissagree thats up to you lol
My relative should be prosecuted lol, regardless of how you look at it, they have a partner & 4 kids, i know for a fact that he claims to be living seperate from her, he gets incapacity benefit due to ill health and a bad back, yet he still manages to work at night lifting heavy things ( i have seen him myself )he is fit and well and she gets dole money, he has even admited this and has told me that as far as he is concerned he makes more doing this than he would if he had a proper job.
so tell me how do you work out this is all just imaginery accusations, It is proof that when someone is reported it is not always followed through.
I know of a few others who claim that they have bad backs yet can do work such as car mechanics, building work, labour work...... so how is this possible if as you say if they are reported it is always followed up. ( i know that these folk have been reported aswell by others)
there are some cases that have been reported and people prosecuted but this is not always the case. That is what i am complaining about but i am sure you already know all this you are just knit picking through my posts and selecting the bits that you want, thats fair enough if thats what keeps you happy, you obviously have plenty of time on your hands
yes in previous threads i have said they should be named & shamed and i still stand by that after all its because of folk like that who are wrecking the system for the decent folk, and Jaws i belive that it is a large minority that are milking the system not a small minority, i know of atleast 20 families in a small area of caithness alone so when you think of all the others around the country its not such a small minority then, but no doubt you will dissagree thats up to you lol
There have been people on these forums who have said they can work and choose not to, and are now collecting benefits. I wonder if there is way they can be reported?
There have been people on these forums who have said they can work and choose not to, and are now collecting benefits. I wonder if there is way they can be reported?
I agree with you on this one Tristan, If they choose not to work they shouldnt be entitled to any benefits simple, The money would be better given to the pensioners who have worked hard all their days and have to live on a mere pittance
connieb19
17-Mar-07, 12:36
There have been people on these forums who have said they can work and choose not to, and are now collecting benefits. I wonder if there is way they can be reported?Why is it so hard for some people to grasp the fact that this is the problem? People who are fit to work but choose not to. :confused
I have no sympathy for people who refuse to work to make their lives better. If they are not willing to work for something then they do not deserve to have it.
Life on the dole is a free ride for the people prepared to play the system, those who keep on dropping babies and expecting the state to pay for everything have a better chance of getting everything.
Those who expect to earn a living wage and work hard for it are treated like dirt so that those who expect everything for nothing can live in luxury.
[disgust]
There are some very wide, sweeping statements being made about people who are on benefits.
There seems to be some posters with large chips on their shoulders and who are hoping that their remarks, although apparently of a general nature, hit the individuals they are aimed at.
connieb19
17-Mar-07, 13:34
There are some very wide, sweeping statements being made about people who are on benefits.
There seems to be some posters with large chips on their shoulders and who are hoping that their remarks, although apparently of a general nature, hit the individuals they are aimed at.
As was said before,if there's so many people the statements apply to that it's a case of "if the cap fits".
So many people resent payng their way in life and would prefer to work the system. I resent working to pay towards such people. If you see this as a chip on my shoulder...tough.
As you say, "if the cap fits". I just hope you are never in the position that others can find themselves in and people point the finger at you and pass some of the same comments which have been made on here.
I always try to take the view, "There but for the grace of God go I!"
connieb19
17-Mar-07, 13:49
As you say, "if the cap fits". I just hope you are never in the position that others can find themselves in and people point the finger at you and pass some of the same comments which have been made on here.
I always try to take the view, "There but for the grace of God go I!"I can assure you 100% that I will never be in the position where I am fit to work but choose not to.
There are some very wide, sweeping statements being made about people who are on benefits.
There seems to be some posters with large chips on their shoulders and who are hoping that their remarks, although apparently of a general nature, hit the individuals they are aimed at.
Are you trying to say that we shouldnt have an opinion other than yours?
If you agree with folk cheating the system then that is up to you lol, i personnaly dont see why we should have to contribute towards folk who cheat the system or dont want to work after all if we all took this attitude what a fine mess the country would be in then,
I would suggest if you dont like the posts on this thread then simply dont read them.
You say there are some on this thread making statements in the hope that they will hit individuals they are aimed at, so please do tell who they are supposed to be aimed at? or is this just another of your assumptions.
As far as i can see they only way something can be directed at a specific person is if there is something there to be aimed at in the first place
Alice in Blunderland
17-Mar-07, 14:03
In this there will never be an answer until the system is changed/ tightened up. As long as there is the ability to abuse there will be those more than happy to oblige.
In every situation it seems that a minority will always spoil it and cause ill feeling towards the majority.
I certainly could not afford the lifestyle I saw others having when I was on benefits for a short while but at the end of the day my conscience was clear. Yes I could have tried to cheat the system, but in the end I did not even think of it, others it seems live to a different standard . :(
In this there will never be an answer until the system is changed/ tightened up. As long as there is the ability to abuse there will be those more than happy to oblige.
In every situation it seems that a minority will always spoil it and cause ill feeling towards the majority.
I certainly could not afford the lifestyle I saw others having when I was on benefits for a short while but at the end of the day my conscience was clear. Yes I could have tried to cheat the system, but in the end I did not even think of it, others it seems live to a different standard . :(
I totally agree with you alice when i was on benefits, It was a regular thing for me to have to chose between coal and electric, but i didnt have to claim for long because as i have said before i took the first job that came along.
I was brought up to have self respect and to be honest to myself and others, morals that i will instill in my own kids.
I want my kids to realise that you have to work in this life and not expect others to have to work hard so that you can free load off, of them
I believe that if more was done to look into peoples claims then they would sort out the wasters from the genuine people, its high time the government got a good hard kick up the backside
Penelope Pitstop
17-Mar-07, 14:24
I totally agree with you alice when i was on benefits, It was a regular thing for me to have to chose between coal and electric, but i didnt have to claim for long because as i have said before i took the first job that came along.
I was brought up to have self respect and to be honest to myself and others, morals that i will instill in my own kids.
I want my kids to realise that you have to work in this life and not expect others to have to work hard so that you can free load off, of them
I believe that if more was done to look into peoples claims then they would sort out the wasters from the genuine people, its high time the government got a good hard kick up the backside
Hi Sam
I also think that alot has to do with how you have been brought up and knowing what is right and what is wrong........not everyone has morals.
I like to teach my kids by example.....where ever possible.lol:Razz
As you say, "if the cap fits". I just hope you are never in the position that others can find themselves in and people point the finger at you and pass some of the same comments which have been made on here.
I always try to take the view, "There but for the grace of God go I!"
I hope I am never in a position where I am unable to work and my heart goes out to those with legitimate claims.
I do know I will NEVER be in the situation of "if the cap fits" scenario where I chose not to work and claim benefits.
Are you trying to say that we shouldnt have an opinion other than yours?
If you agree with folk cheating the system then that is up to you lol, i personnaly dont see why we should have to contribute towards folk who cheat the system or dont want to work after all if we all took this attitude what a fine mess the country would be in then,
I would suggest if you dont like the posts on this thread then simply dont read them.
You say there are some on this thread making statements in the hope that they will hit individuals they are aimed at, so please do tell who they are supposed to be aimed at? or is this just another of your assumptions.
As far as i can see they only way something can be directed at a specific person is if there is something there to be aimed at in the first place
No, you are perfectly entitled to your opinions just as I am entitled to challenge them.
I have not said I agree with people cheating the system, only that the impression some wish to give that almost everybody on benefits are there because they are lazy, work-shy and commiting fraud. To stigmatise perfectly decent and law-abiding people who, for perfectly legitimate reasons, are on benefit as somehow being the scum of the earth I find a disgusting thing to even consider.
The comment, “I would suggest if you don’t like the posts on this thread then simply don’t read them.” says all. What that in effect means is that anybody who challenges your particular view should not say so but should let you views go unchallenged.
I have no particular love of those who defraud the system but I detest the concept that anybody on Benefits should be treated as if they were committing a crime because that is what making the assumption that they are getting something they are not entitled to amounts to.
I certainly consider the fact that everybody who is genuinely receiving some sort of benefit that they are perfectly entitled to should be made to feel ashamed just because somebody else doesn’t think it is fair.
Giving a false impression that somebody is deliberately setting out to get more than somebody else, with no justification, has decided is acceptable does not show that “there is something there to be aimed at in the first place”. It only shows how intolerant the person making such suggestions is.
j4bberw0ck
17-Mar-07, 16:23
And absolutely none of the respondents on this thread get a penny from the government which is contributed by people who are not in a position to avail themselves of the same benefits?
There are no families who get tax credits of various kinds which have compulsory contributions from those who have no families?
Could you explain the difference between donating to tax credits/child benefit if one is single and/or childless and at work and benefits generally if one is at work?
There can be few in this country who are not providing to others benefits they have never needed.................but they do it as an insurance against the day they might.............just as we provide for basic pensions.
Bit of a rant, there, Oddy, even by your increasingly turbocharged standards! :lol:
None of those were points I was making. I was pointing, in astonishment, at the fact that half the households in this country get up to half their incomes from benefits. Subtext, for avoidance of your further confusion: that it's possible for households with an income in excess of £50,000 p.a. to receive tax credits. That Child Benefit is universal. That Child Benefit is paid without limit on the number of children.
Whether it's right for people with no children to contribute to the expenses of those who do, or whether any one group which sees itself in some sense more moral, more correct, more to be admired or whatever should contribute to another group, is a whole other argument. But of course if people with no children shouldn't contribute to people who have children, or if those in work shouldn't contribute to those out of work, then don't you think the whole system starts to creak?
Next thing you know, someone bright spark will start to ask why the well-paid should contribute to the poorly paid, or to those waiting for retirement.
Don't talk troch!
Well, I do make an effort not to, and I like to believe I'm more successful in my efforts than many :cool:, but if you were dependent on the State for your income, and some politician came along and proposed that if in power he / she / it would withdraw benefits you currently claim, don't you think there's a chance recipients might weigh that in the balance when deciding who to vote for? That, to me, is simply a variant on buying votes.
[quote=JAWS;202342]No, you are perfectly entitled to your opinions just as I am entitled to challenge them.
The comment, “I would suggest if you don’t like the posts on this thread then simply don’t read them.” says all. What that in effect means is that anybody who challenges your particular view should not say so but should let you views go unchallenged.
Yes Jaws i am perfectly entitled to my opinions just as you or anyone else is.
You say that my comment to not read my posts if you dont like what you read in effect means anybody who challanges my views should not. What CRAP.
It in effect means exactly what it says so dont bother trying to twist it, i have already said more than once that this thread isnt aimed at genuine people but can you see that NO.
You keep on harping back to the same old things over and over again, well i'm not going to keep trying t explain to you, there's just no getting through to some folk so i think we should agree to disagree. simple
You seem to be taking things very personally Jaws, for whatever reason only you know maybe you are on benefits yourself, but i would say if you are and you are genuine then whats your problem.
like i have said before you are just trying to stir yet again to get a reaction well sorry to dissapoint lol cos i am not as childish as you.
I'm with Sam on this one. Sam's posts have repeatedly stated that the benfits system is too easy for people to cheat it if they want. Yes there are genuinie cases as I said somewhere else I found myself at one time for a short [eriod claiming benefits. Those who are fit to work should do some work for their benefits. After all the rest of us have to work for our money! If both parents want to stay at home at bring up large number of kids then they should make sure they are well off enough not to have to claim benefits or one should work! I read somewhere recently that only the very rich and those on benefits can afford to have more than 2 kids!!
why don't people mind thier own bussiness and get on with life. that sam has too much to say for there self not every one is the same,im on benifits and i hate it but i have a dissability.i don't have any luxuries i live from day to day.so just give it a rest as not everyone is tared with the same brush. get on with your own life in stead of wondering what the rest of the world is doing.
why don't people mind thier own bussiness and get on with life. that sam has too much to say for there self not every one is the same,im on benifits and i hate it but i have a dissability.i don't have any luxuries i live from day to day.so just give it a rest as not everyone is tared with the same brush. get on with your own life in stead of wondering what the rest of the world is doing.
YES i do have a lot to say for myself because i work for a living and if you had even bothered to read my posts you would know that i am talking about the ones who cheat the system, but as usual there are always a few who just cant be bothered to read all the posts and jump to conclussions.
If all those so called people that you are on about minded their own business then the fraudsters would carry on getting away with it, its them that are giving all the folk on benefits a bad name lol, not the ones who point out what they are doing and i for one havent tarred anyone with the same brush, as i have said previously its the genuine people I DO CARE about.
So why dont you get your facts right.
As i have also said i was on benefits myself for a brief time so i know only to well how hard it is.
why don't people mind thier own bussiness and get on with life. that sam has too much to say for there self not every one is the same,im on benifits and i hate it but i have a dissability.i don't have any luxuries i live from day to day.so just give it a rest as not everyone is tared with the same brush. get on with your own life in stead of wondering what the rest of the world is doing.
The only people doing the tarring are certain individuals who like to stir. Sam has come out very clear, that he supports those who need support.
connieb19
17-Mar-07, 20:52
Jaws, Sam has already said numerous times that her first post wasn't very clear. All that was cleared up by around post 55 if you had bothered to read this thread instead of reading posts from way back in September time.
It's pretty obvious Jaws, you are nit picking away trying to turn this thread and sams posts into something it's not.
There's plenty of other people who can see what sam is saying and agree. For being someone who thinks he's so bright, you aint half stupid.
The question was "Is the Goverment too lenient"? Why dont you answer the question for a change instead of trying to belittle other people with your supposedly intelectual crap? How come when it's a thread about something you're not googling for answers on all you can do is try to belittle folk? [disgust]
Penelope Pitstop
18-Mar-07, 13:21
It's important to stand up for what you think is right. If more people did then we would probably live in a better place.
All too often folk sit on the fence, frightened which side to jump for fear of upsetting the apple kart.
Cant you lot start having ago a people other than mothers on benefits......I thought this was a good thread when it first started but after all i have read you seem to be under the impression that only people with kids are on benefits.I see the mention of kids all through these posts...My god you only have to say you are a druggy or an alcaholic and you are entitled to benefits...My god if you all got together and put it into one large complaint and hand it in to the GOV it would be filed away with the rest of the crap.....Mothers are entitled to kids and they are entitled to benefits, start having a go at those on benefits that abuse the system to the max, not just mothers that want a family..........Have you no better things to be doing, like playing with your kids while you are not at work........I have heard some arguments about benefits but some of you lot are pathetic..........I think of all those out there, who for one reason or another who are on benefits and you know i dont judge them, why because this is not a third world country, and neither are the british barbaric..They help the needy in every way and if you recieve benefits then you are entitled.......[evil] [disgust]
Alice in Blunderland
18-Mar-07, 15:12
I think its not those on benefits that is causing most people to get up in arms imho.
Alcoholics are entitled to extra money to help with their addiction, people on a stick get extra money per stick, and so on and so on I am sure the list of extras is endless. It is the open and blatant abuse of the system by the few who make life hard for the rest.
The government have allowed this situation to rumble along without being properly addressed for years so it is not going to change overnight.
I know of one case which was mentioned to me where someone going to the benefits agency hobbles in on two sticks and then is seen down the street with no sticks. Its this open two fingered signal which upsets some.
I am not here to stand in judgement of others I have myself been on benefits and I was indeed gratefull that there is such a system to protect the vulnerable when they need it as I have often said its when the safety net becomes a comforter then that is wrong in my view.
In the past five years my husband has paid into the system in tax more than I could dream of earning and he never complains as he says its the way of this land and he chose to come here. However should he ever choose to stop working and stay at home with the children that is not an option for him. He has worked over ten years paying many thousands in tax ,in the hundred of thousands in fact but ,should he give up work to stay at home with the kids he would have limited time in this country unless he again pays a sum of money to the goverment to change his visa as his right to stay is tied to the fact he is employed, if not then its out for you, thankyou very much we took your money but dont look to us for any. Funny how the system can be tight for some but not for others.
I do not grudge anyone benefits but due to the way the system works for some and not for others you can see where ill feeling starts to come in.:)
Cant you lot start having ago a people other than mothers on benefits
I took a quick look back I didn't see mothers being singled out just people who abuse the system.
They [Benefits my ed]help the needy in every way and if you recieve benefits then you are entitled.......[evil] [disgust]
All the posts I have read say the pretty much the same thing. Benefits are a very important safety net. I have not found any post that says those who are unable to work and are in real need of benefits should not get them.
People are complaining about a hopefully small number of people who can work and choose to 'play' the system and receive benefits when they could be working.
j4bberw0ck
18-Mar-07, 15:31
Mothers are entitled to kids
Absolutely not. Sorry, but this is not true. Entitlements are things which are earned, not things which happen "just because". "Earned" doesn't necessarily mean money; in the case of children it may mean that children have been prepared for, planned for, adequately resourced and are well brought up (god knows, we could do with a few of those) to be socially-minded, stable, balanced individuals. It may well be that according to that definition you're more "entitled" than many teenage mothers of one child but as long as you're claiming benefits to finance an expanding family, you have obligations too.
..............if you recieve benefits then you are entitled.......[evil] [disgust]Complete rubbish. That "entitlement" word again. Part of the problem with benefits is that many of the recipients are clearly not entitled - they're playing the system, which is not a comment on your circumstances but a comment on your statement.
I'm not making a judgement on your circumstances, but I do get really hacked off when people start on about "entitlements".
As someone once said:
"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."
connieb19
18-Mar-07, 15:57
Here's another story from todays NOTW. I suppose there's people on the org who think this couple are entitled to everything too? :roll: [disgust]
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/benefits.shtml
We do need to make provision for those who need financial help due to illness or other unforeseen misfortune.
I would never rush to judge anybody receiving benefits, just because they were, and I would try not to make sweeping statements about them either.
I have been in this situation myself...you never know what's round the corner, and it can be a very painful discovery.
However, imo, that's very, very different from actually planning a lifestyle financed solely or substantially by other people. :confused
Cant you lot start having ago a people other than mothers on benefits......I thought this was a good thread when it first started but after all i have read you seem to be under the impression that only people with kids are on benefits.I see the mention of kids all through these posts...My god you only have to say you are a druggy or an alcaholic and you are entitled to benefits...My god if you all got together and put it into one large complaint and hand it in to the GOV it would be filed away with the rest of the crap.....Mothers are entitled to kids and they are entitled to benefits, start having a go at those on benefits that abuse the system to the max, not just mothers that want a family..........Have you no better things to be doing, like playing with your kids while you are not at work........I have heard some arguments about benefits but some of you lot are pathetic..........I think of all those out there, who for one reason or another who are on benefits and you know i dont judge them, why because this is not a third world country, and neither are the british barbaric..They help the needy in every way and if you recieve benefits then you are entitled.......[evil] [disgust]
This thread was started in regards to everyone who cheats the system in one way or another and ofcourse there are going to be folk with kids mentioned on it because there are a majority of folk with kids who cheat the system, as are there folk who are single and cheat the system.
Its these folk who are being unfair on the genuine claiments, the amount of money that is wasted on cheats and layabouts is disgusting and its high time the government did more to put a stop to it.
Just because someone recieves benefits doesnt mean they deserve them, i could give up work tomorrow and so could my hubby but it wouldnt mean we would be entitled to benefits even though we have both worked and paid tax and insurance, the reason we wouldnt just be entitled to them is quite simple..
we both have our health and are fit enough to work so therefore we shouldnt expect to get a free ride on all the other hard working tax payers .
If the government did more to check up on all claiments and cut the money from folk who shouldnt be getting it they would save an absolute fortune.
well i am gonna butt in here...
We are on a thread about the gov being to lenient about benefits, well how about are the gov to lenient when it comes to all the tax payers putting their hard earned cash into the prison system, you know the same system that houses the worst of the worst, child killers like Ian huntley....He has no worries(except maybe someone harming him),he has three meals a day, tv, heating, hot water, probably the likes of the use of the prison library,games rooms and you are all paying for it....Many people are quick to hit the benefit section but there are people out there that do not deserve a thing.They are having a secure life behind bars at the tax payers expense, and they get that after taking another persons life,,,,,where's the justice....
well i am gonna butt in here...
We are on a thread about the gov being to lenient about benefits, well how about are the gov to lenient when it comes to all the tax payers putting their hard earned cash into the prison system, you know the same system that houses the worst of the worst, child killers like Ian huntley....He has no worries(except maybe someone harming him),he has three meals a day, tv, heating, hot water, probably the likes of the use of the prison library,games rooms and you are all paying for it....Many people are quick to hit the benefit section but there are people out there that do not deserve a thing.They are having a secure life behind bars at the tax payers expense, and they get that after taking another persons life,,,,,where's the justice....
Lol I am more than happy to put my tax money towards keeping rapists, murderers, paedophiles & the like behind bars and off the streets if it means that our streets will be a bit safer. In fact there is absolutley no comparrison to that and dole cheats
but hey i would be more than happy to have my tax money used to keep the dole cheats there to, its where they belong
Penelope Pitstop
18-Mar-07, 18:34
LOL........How can you compare the cost of keeping murder's, rapist's, etc in jail to benefit cheats????????
I too don't grudge a penny to keep them locked up.
If the benefit cheats were stopped (or had a conscience and stopped cheating the system) then the gov would have more money to spend elsewhere...............and people that really need it would benefit!!........because that's who's suffering - the people that really need the benefits system.
Who keeps going on about people with kids on benefits??............no one's post that I've noticed!!
If people are fit and healthy to work what excuse do they have not to work.........I don't believe for a minute that they can't get a job. Maybe they won't find the job that they want/like........but hey who's got that!!!LOL. Needs must, you just take what you can get to get by.
Someone posted that people on benefits are deemed to be the scum of the earth................absolutely NOT, (I know very deserving people on benefits and they don't get much ...mores the pitty). But the people that cheat the system definately ARE scum.........what do they contribute to society as a whole?? If these people do have offspring then what message are they giving them for their future??
[quote=JAWS;202342]No, you are perfectly entitled to your opinions just as I am entitled to challenge them.
The comment, “I would suggest if you don’t like the posts on this thread then simply don’t read them.” says all. What that in effect means is that anybody who challenges your particular view should not say so but should let you views go unchallenged.
Yes Jaws i am perfectly entitled to my opinions just as you or anyone else is.
You say that my comment to not read my posts if you dont like what you read in effect means anybody who challanges my views should not. What CRAP.
It in effect means exactly what it says so dont bother trying to twist it, i have already said more than once that this thread isnt aimed at genuine people but can you see that NO.
You keep on harping back to the same old things over and over again, well i'm not going to keep trying t explain to you, there's just no getting through to some folk so i think we should agree to disagree. simple
You seem to be taking things very personally Jaws, for whatever reason only you know maybe you are on benefits yourself, but i would say if you are and you are genuine then whats your problem.
like i have said before you are just trying to stir yet again to get a reaction well sorry to dissapoint lol cos i am not as childish as you.My objection to the whole tone of this thread is to the fact that, despite all the denials, it is directed at those least able to defend themselves.
Your attitude is well displayed by your comment "you may well be on benefits yourself". The fact that I dispute the wild generalisations which have been bandied about on this thread would appear that only those on benefits would make objections. That in itself demonstrates both your, and others with similar views, attitude to those people who are on benefits.
"If you stick up for them then you must be one as well!" would appear to be your attitude as if that is something demeaning.
The only people who are stirring things up on this Thread are those who are intent on portraying those on benefits as nothing more than scroungers.
Oh yes, I know, "We only mean those who are committing fraud." Well you may pretend to yourselves that is what you mean but your bitterness towards those who find themselves on benefits is very obvious. That attitude is very well proved be your attempted dismissal of my comments by saying that I must therefore also be on benefits as if that would make my comments less worthy of consideration.
Just one small question, why should you be so concerned that you feel you have to comment on the matter that I, or anybody else for that matter, is or is not on benefits?
Does that affect their worthiness to take part in this thread?
[quote=sam;202394]My objection to the whole tone of this thread is to the fact that, despite all the denials, it is directed at those least able to defend themselves.
Your attitude is well displayed by your comment "you may well be on benefits yourself". The fact that I dispute the wild generalisations which have been bandied about on this thread would appear that only those on benefits would make objections. That in itself demonstrates both your, and others with similar views, attitude to those people who are on benefits.
"If you stick up for them then you must be one as well!" would appear to be your attitude as if that is something demeaning.
The only people who are stirring things up on this Thread are those who are intent on portraying those on benefits as nothing more than scroungers.
Oh yes, I know, "We only mean those who are committing fraud." Well you may pretend to yourselves that is what you mean but your bitterness towards those who find themselves on benefits is very obvious. That attitude is very well proved be your attempted dismissal of my comments by saying that I must therefore also be on benefits as if that would make my comments less worthy of consideration.
Just one small question, why should you be so concerned that you feel you have to comment on the matter that I, or anybody else for that matter, is or is not on benefits?
Does that affect their worthiness to take part in this thread?
I merely asked why you were taking it so personal and if it was because you were on benefits, because i can see no reason why you are trying to twist the thread into something it is not.
You are trying to make out that this thread applies to all on benefits when it does not, but hey thats up to you lol.
No matter how often something is explained to you, you just can seem to accept that others have a different opinion to you.
So as i have said before we will just have to agree to disagree, but oh thats right you cant even do that.
You say it is directed at those least able to defend themselves, If someone is genuine then why would they either want or have to defend themselves?
And as for you're question does it affect their worthiness to take part in this thread... the only answer to that is lol stop being a drama queen.
If you cant accept that this is directed at those who cheat and defraud the system, thats your problem but dont insult the genuine folk by trying to drag them into it Jaws it is neither right or fair[disgust]
I'm not taking it personally, that is just your wishful thinking. I'm sorry, but it takes a lot more than anything here to even get me anywhere near to taking things personally. The only opinions I ever bother about are those of people who know me well enough to make a valid judgement and there are very few on here who come even remotely near to that so don't over exercise yourself worrying about that.
The tone of several posters on this thread indicates that they are not so much concerned if some people on benefit are committing fraud but more that they disagree with certain parts of their lifestyle which entitles, and I use that word very intentionally, them to receive those benefits which they are quite legitimately entitled to.
There have been comments that people suffering certain conditions or who are in certain circumstances are somehow cheating the benefits system.
It does not matter how many times you plead innocence, that is what has been posted from time to time on this thread.
The only person who seems to be engaging in anything personal is your suggestion that, because I disagree with much of what I said then it must be because I am on benefits.
What pray, would that have to do with anything? What does it matter to you, or anybody else on this thread just who is or is not on benefits?
Would that make their posts any more or any less relevant. Perhaps people on benefits fall into a lower category than those who work from time to time.
I'm not taking it personally, that is just your wishful thinking. I'm sorry, but it takes a lot more than anything here to even get me anywhere near to taking things personally. The only opinions I ever bother about are those of people who know me well enough to make a valid judgement and there are very few on here who come even remotely near to that so don't over exercise yourself worrying about that.
The tone of several posters on this thread indicates that they are not so much concerned if some people on benefit are committing fraud but more that they disagree with certain parts of their lifestyle which entitles, and I use that word very intentionally, them to receive those benefits which they are quite legitimately entitled to.
There have been comments that people suffering certain conditions or who are in certain circumstances are somehow cheating the benefits system.
It does not matter how many times you plead innocence, that is what has been posted from time to time on this thread.
The only person who seems to be engaging in anything personal is your suggestion that, because I disagree with much of what I said then it must be because I am on benefits.
What pray, would that have to do with anything? What does it matter to you, or anybody else on this thread just who is or is not on benefits?
Would that make their posts any more or any less relevant. Perhaps people on benefits fall into a lower category than those who work from time to time.
I certainly wont worry about it Jaws, you seem to stand on judgement of everyone else, you imply that you know my mind better than i do by your constant harping on about why the thread was started.
You seem to have a problem reading what is actually written in some posts and just make you're own assumptions.
The only reason i said you may be on benefits yourself, Is because you seem to be taking it personally & trying to twist it so that it referrs to all on benefits, It was a simple question which you seem to have taken offence at my asking, i couldnt care less who is claiming benefits as long as they are claiming legally
as i have also said previously i have claimed benefits in the past so i am only to well aware of how hard it is for genuine folk who dont defraud the system.
I also know folk who are genuinly claiming now and who feel the same way i do about cheats.
Why do you keep asking if it would make a difference to someones posts whether they are on benefits or not when i have already answered this.
Yet again you inability to read what is written.
Whats with all the bitching amongst you so called better people.....My god you cant even get through one day without having to have a go......To be honest people on benefits are alot nicer people to get on with as there is no pretence between them...They know where they stand and guess what, They dont have to keep in with the JONES....Get back to the thread that was posted and stop giving any concern as to who is on benefits and who isnt, and yes i am and no i am not cheating the system as some people seem to think...........Have your opinions whether you think i am a cheat or not..your right to free speach, and i will just continue getting what i get and that aint gonna change.....I have a family to look after, and i do that with all i have.To be honest the idea of going back to work seems a better idea every week,as i would love to have a break for 9 hrs a day, but then put all those hours together and thats a lots of time i missed with my kids.......THATS LIFE:eek:
The only reason i said you may be on benefits yourself, Is because you seem to be taking it personally & trying to twist it so that it referrs to all on benefits,
I remember a very bitter thread about pregnant teenagers where I contradicted some very pointed comments made about them.
I don't know if you recall the thread, but following your comments about my views on this thread I assume the assumption must also be that I took that thread "personally" because I was a pregnant teenager.
There is nothing in any of my posts which would indicate that I had taken any of the comments personally.
As for it being me who is being judgemental,
How is it that someone on benefits can afford a car & the running costs, sky t.v, house phone & mobile phone, holidays, computer & broadband and still be able to smoke and go on nights out?
well, that seems pretty judgemental about the lifestyle of people on benefit.
You seem to have considered that, because I am not joining in the broad hints that most people on benefits are "working the system", that I too must be on benefits.
I will ask again, what is the relevance of questioning if I am on benefits or not because you seem to believe that it should be relevant.
Whats with all the bitching amongst you so called better people.....My god you cant even get through one day without having to have a go......To be honest people on benefits are alot nicer people to get on with as there is no pretence between them...They know where they stand and guess what, They dont have to keep in with the JONES....Get back to the thread that was posted and stop giving any concern as to who is on benefits and who isnt, and yes i am and no i am not cheating the system as some people seem to think...........Have your opinions whether you think i am a cheat or not..your right to free speach, and i will just continue getting what i get and that aint gonna change.....I have a family to look after, and i do that with all i have.To be honest the idea of going back to work seems a better idea every week,as i would love to have a break for 9 hrs a day, but then put all those hours together and thats a lots of time i missed with my kids.......THATS LIFE:eek:
Justine, I started this thread because i disagree with working to keep people who are cheating the system or cant be bothered working, (my opinion as with many others on this thread to which we are entitled to).
I never have and never will try to keep up with the Jones's, I'll leave that to those on the dole who cheat the system, I will however
work hard to provide for my family as they are my responsability and not the responsability of others.
I is beyond me how some people just cant see the wood for the tree's.
atleast i know that i have brought my family up with respect for themselves and others the same as my parents did for me.
Who are you suggesting have not brought their families up with respect for themselves and others? I suspect the last post gives away far more than it was meant to.
I remember a very bitter thread about pregnant teenagers where I contradicted some very pointed comments made about them.
I don't know if you recall the thread, but following your comments about my views on this thread I assume the assumption must also be that I took that thread "personally" because I was a pregnant teenager.
There is nothing in any of my posts which would indicate that I had taken any of the comments personally.
As for it being me who is being judgemental,
well, that seems pretty judgemental about the lifestyle of people on benefit.
You seem to have considered that, because I am not joining in the broad hints that most people on benefits are "working the system", that I too must be on benefits.
I will ask again, what is the relevance of questioning if I am on benefits or not because you seem to believe that it should be relevant.
I only asked if you are on benefits, because you seem to take offence at my opinions, I could care less if you are on benefits as long as its legal as i have already said, like you said i can have my opinions and you can challange them so does it not work vice versa..... You didnt answer my question you're choice
I answered yours my choice.
You keep trying to imply that there is more to the thread than there is.
It has nothig to do with you not joining in, it was to do with you trying to twist things as i have said more than once already but you just seem to pick what you want out of posts.
I am well aware that i am wasting my time replying to you, There is just no getting through to some folk. they can only see their opinion and thats that.
I can see what you are saying but as i have told you it is not what the thread is about.
The reason i asked how people on benefits can afford all the luxuries i have stated is because i know of a good few who can afford all this whilst claiming benefits and they have openly admited that they couldnt afford it all if they were to work.
I am more than curious as to how someone on benefits can afford to go abroad on holiday with their family and run around in a nearly new car and i know i am not the only one who would like to know how this is done.
Because there is no way it is affordable on just benefits.
You keep going over and over the same things you just word them differently in each post and i keep telling you the same thing so where exactly is it getting us ?? No where:roll:
Justine, I started this thread because i disagree with working to keep people who are cheating the system or cant be bothered working, (my opinion as with many others on this thread to which we are entitled to).
I never have and never will try to keep up with the Jones's, I'll leave that to those on the dole who cheat the system, I will however
work hard to provide for my family as they are my responsability and not the responsability of others.
I is beyond me how some people just cant see the wood for the tree's.
atleast i know that i have brought my family up with respect for themselves and others the same as my parents did for me.
SAM, you started this thread to have a bitch at people on benefits due to the other thread that i started......about being pregnant...neither do you have respect that you were tought and neither do you have respect for others. no matter what they do or not do..You are a self rightious person that i tell my kids to avoid, the type of person who would not spit on them if they were burning......maybe you would have better things to say about people if you were a nicer person...Everyone has a life style that obviously does not match your exclusive one, well guess what lovey i aint a teenager that is pregnant i am a 37yr old that was raised in the army,joined the army and have more respect for myself and others than you wioll ever get in your lifetime....I did not come over with the banana boat and neither did i choose the life i have now, but i tell you i have happy, respectful, thoughtful children and i would love for you to find someone who would say any different.I have 1 who wants to be a riding instructor and does a five day week at halkirk stables, 1 who wants to be a teacher and has since she was 4, and an 8 year old who wants to be a vet.I have a 3 yr old boy who want to be a bus driver, and not one of them that understand about working have ever said that they want to go on the dole....I am proud of my kids and will always be will.....
Who are you suggesting have not brought their families up with respect for themselves and others? I suspect the last post gives away far more than it was meant to.
No lol thats just you assuming again, Folk who cheat the system obviously have no respect for themselves or others, I would if thought that would of been obvious to even you:roll:
B.T.W I say what i mean and i mean what i say:Razz
Yes, I really do think that you actually believe what you said in that particular post. Others might not be so sure though.
The fact that children are brought up be parents who work does not automatically mean that they respect anything.
Many children who are brought up by the most feckless parents can turn out extremely well adjusted and useful members of society.
I'm glad to hear that you are so satisfied with the way you have brought up your children.
I'm sure that many other parents in quite different circumstances are perfectly entitled to feel just as satisfied with themselves.
Yes, I really do think that you actually believe what you said in that particular post. Others might not be so sure though.
The fact that children are brought up be parents who work does not automatically mean that they respect anything.
Many children who are brought up by the most feckless parents can turn out extremely well adjusted and useful members of society.
I'm glad to hear that you are so satisfied with the way you have brought up your children.
I'm sure that many other parents in quite different circumstances are perfectly entitled to feel just as satisfied with themselves.
Nicely put jaws......I believe that he/she knew what she said and who it was about.But then they have to hide behind their computer to have a slanging match..What i would like to know is how any hours does sam spend at work and how many does sam spend on the computer bitching about their situation.....God get paid for sitting on the computer, what a waste of tax payers money.
Talk about obsessive people.....Well i will tell you that if my grandkids, well if i have any, ever had that attitude to people i wouldbe so dissappointed......I would wonder where their respect was...How to have your family have respect for all workers and tell them to forget about others that for one reason or another are not in their parents league...SAD SAD SAD......Let children air their own views and let them find out what people are likepersonally and not for their income......It could become a very unhappy life...All money,debts and no friends....All the people they know will be mindless, self rightious, andi hope that they learn that people are not to be judged because their parents say so........:Razz
Yes, I really do think that you actually believe what you said in that particular post. Others might not be so sure though.
The fact that children are brought up be parents who work does not automatically mean that they respect anything.
Many children who are brought up by the most feckless parents can turn out extremely well adjusted and useful members of society.
I'm glad to hear that you are so satisfied with the way you have brought up your children.
I'm sure that many other parents in quite different circumstances are perfectly entitled to feel just as satisfied with themselves.
See there you go again, Jumping to assumptions, i said that i had brought my family up the same as i was brought up to have respect, where did i say anything that could remotely mean a person on benefits cant bring their families up to have respect??
There are plenty of folk who do work that have families with no respect.
thats just you taking what you want out my posts and trying to twisting it yet again.
Whatever amuses you lol
Nicely put jaws......I believe that he/she knew what she said and who it was about.But then they have to hide behind their computer to have a slanging match..What i would like to know is how any hours does sam spend at work and how many does sam spend on the computer bitching about their situation.....God get paid for sitting on the computer, what a waste of tax payers money.
Talk about obsessive people.....Well i will tell you that if my grandkids, well if i have any, ever had that attitude to people i wouldbe so dissappointed......I would wonder where their respect was...How to have your family have respect for all workers and tell them to forget about others that for one reason or another are not in their parents league...SAD SAD SAD......Let children air their own views and let them find out what people are likepersonally and not for their income......It could become a very unhappy life...All money,debts and no friends....All the people they know will be mindless, self rightious, andi hope that they learn that people are not to be judged because their parents say so........:Razz
Nicely put Justine, I am with you all the way on this thread
Careful, Golach, or you will go on the list of those terrible people on benefit as well![lol]
[quote=justine;203065]SAM, you started this thread to have a bitch at people on benefits due to the other thread that i started......
Lol how vain are you, I hadnt even been in your thread until you came into my thread so dont flatter yourself, if this thread had been about you i wouldnt of been in the least bit shy to put you as the heading, but guess what there are loads of folk out there who cheat the system or cant be bothered to work.
[quote=justine;203093]Nicely put jaws......I believe that he/she knew what she said and who it was about.But then they have to hide behind their computer to have a slanging match..What i would like to know is how any hours does sam spend at work and how many does sam spend on the computer bitching about their situation.....God get paid for sitting on the computer, what a waste of tax payers money.
So you would like to know how many hours i work, well its over 40 a week and no i dont work with computers, but hey i do actually get time off and just think there is you sitting on your computer not working now that in my eyes is a total waste of the tax payers money lol
Justine, I started this thread because i disagree with working to keep people who are cheating the system or cant be bothered working, (my opinion as with many others on this thread to which we are entitled to).
I never have and never will try to keep up with the Jones's, I'll leave that to those on the dole who cheat the system, I will however
work hard to provide for my family as they are my responsability and not the responsability of others.
I is beyond me how some people just cant see the wood for the tree's.
atleast i know that i have brought my family up with respect for themselves and others the same as my parents did for me.
You are right they are your responsibility but how many hours do they spend with a childminder, or school clubs...You put your kids with others and you say its your responsibilty to look after them...Where is the joke in that.....You probably get tax credits and child care costs and if you dont have either or need either, then why are you so bothered about those who cant manage without the aid of one benefit or another.......This thread was started because you were told to get off the other one......This is how forums go from nice places to be to forums to be avoided...You are repating all you have said, you cant come up with a batter arguemant can you....[disgust]
You are right they are your responsibility but how many hours do they spend with a childminder, or school clubs...You put your kids with others and you say its your responsibilty to look after them...Where is the joke in that.....You probably get tax credits and child care costs and if you dont have either or need either, then why are you so bothered about those who cant manage without the aid of one benefit or another.......This thread was started because you were told to get off the other one......This is how forums go from nice places to be to forums to be avoided...You are repating all you have said, you cant come up with a batter arguemant can you....[disgust]
I was told to get of the other what?
And when i work my husband has the kids, when he works i have them and we also have our time together, you see you can actually work without needing childcare if you really want to.
[quote=justine;203065]SAM, you started this thread to have a bitch at people on benefits due to the other thread that i started......
Lol how vain are you, I hadnt even been in your thread until you came into my thread so dont flatter yourself, if this thread had been about you i wouldnt of been in the least bit shy to put you as the heading, but guess what there are loads of folk out there who cheat the system or cant be bothered to work.
[quote=justine;203093]Nicely put jaws......I believe that he/she knew what she said and who it was about.But then they have to hide behind their computer to have a slanging match..What i would like to know is how any hours does sam spend at work and how many does sam spend on the computer bitching about their situation.....God get paid for sitting on the computer, what a waste of tax payers money.
So you would like to know how many hours i work, well its over 40 a week and no i dont work with computers, but hey i do actually get time off and just think there is you sitting on your computer not working now that in my eyes is a total waste of the tax payers money lol
well if you work 40 a week and can still have time in your long hours to have a bitch, good on you....Oh and i dont need to flatter myself i have many that do that for me.....As for me being a waste of tax payers money, change the record, we sick of hearing that......All those that cared left this thread ages ago, you just can stop having ago and assuming all are losers.......Get a grip and stop being so spiteful, you may just pass it on tho your wee ones.....
[quote=sam;203106][quote=justine;203065]SAM, you started this thread to have a bitch at people on benefits due to the other thread that i started......
Lol how vain are you, I hadnt even been in your thread until you came into my thread so dont flatter yourself, if this thread had been about you i wouldnt of been in the least bit shy to put you as the heading, but guess what there are loads of folk out there who cheat the system or cant be bothered to work.
well if you work 40 a week and can still have time in your long hours to have a bitch, good on you....Oh and i dont need to flatter myself i have many that do that for me.....As for me being a waste of tax payers money, change the record, we sick of hearing that......All those that cared left this thread ages ago, you just can stop having ago and assuming all are losers.......Get a grip and stop being so spiteful, you may just pass it on tho your wee ones.....
for someone who talks of spending so much time with their kids you sure do spend a lot of time on here lol, as for all the others leaving the thread does it not occur to you they might just work for a living, o silly me of course it wouldnt
See there you go again, Jumping to assumptions, i said that i had brought my family up the same as i was brought up to have respect, where did i say anything that could remotely mean a person on benefits cant bring their families up to have respect??
There are plenty of folk who do work that have families with no respect.
thats just you taking what you want out my posts and trying to twisting it yet again.
Whatever amuses you lol
Read your post 217 again. The implications in it are quite plain and I am sure I am not the only one who interprets it the same way.
Putting the word "cheat" into posts occasionally does not hide what you are getting at even though you decided rather belatedly to deny it.
For some reason I keep getting feelings of deja vu, I'm sure I remember several similar types of threads from several months ago but I can't remember who it was who started them but it certainly seems familiar.
Careful, Golach, or you will go on the list of those terrible people on benefit as well![lol]
Jaws I already am, its called the State Pension :lol:
Well SAM, not to put a finer point on things, i have worked out that my full time position as a mother works out at 112hrs a week.I have an early start and a finish when they all go to bed.I then take 2hrs on a night to spend with my husband and then i go to bed....I get paid alot less than you think and i put in alot more hours......People seem to think that if you recieve benefits you are lazy......I would love a day when i could do nothing.....And you know what, i aint complaining about how many hours i put in, why because i love my children and feel it is my duty that they come first,,,in all i do.......I would love to be vain, but that would make me more like you and that would be a burden that i can live without.....
I have a good family and a close family..Not being nasty but itis probably alot closer than many families, but that is the thing with large families, they do tend to be closer...I could not change that just to satisfy any who thinks my life should be different...........Oh and yes, you did put you pennies worth in onmy other thread, i read every reply and guess what go cback and have a look, you might just find yours there.......I dont lie......i am an honest person....always have been and always will be.....
Read your post 217 again. The implications in it are quite plain and I am sure I am not the only one who interprets it the same way.
Putting the word "cheat" into posts occasionally does not hide what you are getting at even though you decided rather belatedly to deny it.
For some reason I keep getting feelings of deja vu, I'm sure I remember several similar types of threads from several months ago but I can't remember who it was who started them but it certainly seems familiar.
here we go same old record havent you anything different to say, You keep saying you know exactly what i am getting at, so come on then do tell as you seem to think you know my mind better than i do, but i guess thats par for the course when you think you are perfect lol
[quote=justine;203114][quote=sam;203106]
for someone who talks of spending so much time with their kids you sure do spend a lot of time on here lol, as for all the others leaving the thread does it not occur to you they might just work for a living, o silly me of course it wouldnt
For someone who works 40hrs a week you spend a lot of time on here to........My kids are with me at the moment, in the front room,and the others are coming in from school.....So i have spare time in between my chores then i like to talk to other. But then i suppose you would have a problem with that....As to the thought that poeple who have left this thread might be at work. well some of them have not been on this thread for days, and i aint as stupid as you seem to be implying, but then i dont care what people are doing with their days.....Unlike some....
Well SAM, not to put a finer point on things, i have worked out that my full time position as a mother works out at 112hrs a week.I have an early start and a finish when they all go to bed.I then take 2hrs on a night to spend with my husband and then i go to bed....I get paid alot less than you think and i put in alot more hours......People seem to think that if you recieve benefits you are lazy......I would love a day when i could do nothing.....And you know what, i aint complaining about how many hours i put in, why because i love my children and feel it is my duty that they come first,,,in all i do.......I would love to be vain, but that would make me more like you and that would be a burden that i can live without.....
I have a good family and a close family..Not being nasty but itis probably alot closer than many families, but that is the thing with large families, they do tend to be closer...I could not change that just to satisfy any who thinks my life should be different...........Oh and yes, you did put you pennies worth in onmy other thread, i read every reply and guess what go cback and have a look, you might just find yours there.......I dont lie......i am an honest person....always have been and always will be.....
you may well be an honest person, but you are wrong if you are on about your thread about your pregnancy i didnt put my pennies worth in because i wasnt in it nor was i in your thread for those who care
A bit off topic I know, but I feel that from cradle to grave we all, as individuals, contribute to and receive from society.
Not just in terms of financial contributions, but in many other ways as well, which should be taken into consideration.
Until we each breathe our last, we won't necessarily know if we've contributed more than we've taken, or vice versa.
no one knows if or when they might find themselves on benefits, but they do know if they are going to cheat the system or not, that is the whole point of this thread although some are trying their very best to make it look like something it is not.
But thats life there is just no getting through to some
here we go same old record havent you anything different to say, You keep saying you know exactly what i am getting at, so come on then do tell as you seem to think you know my mind better than i do, but i guess thats par for the course when you think you are perfect lolYou are getting a exactly what you intended to in your first post.
You start a Thread which you say is only about people who are committing benefit fraud and the one thing you fail to mention in the post which started the thread is the "Fraud" part.
You then complain that it was obvious what you meant even though you didn't say so and that I, for one, should have realised what you meant, even though it wasn't there.
Now you are complaining that I should not be seeing things in your posts which are not there because you did not specifically put them there.
Should I take your first post to mean only what is there and not read the "Fraud" part into it because you did not specifically mention it?
Or should I make assumptions about your first post by reading “Fraud” into it and if so then why should I not make the same sort of assumptions about things which you fail to mention in your later posts.
The whole tone of your posts and those of others have certainly given the impression that there is some sort of shame attached to receiving benefits, fraudulently or otherwise.
I have become aware that there are some people on the Forum who are genuinely receiving benefits who have suffered distress by some of the hurtful comments which have been made. They have been made to feel that they are somehow at fault for having been, either through ill health or other reasons, placed in such a position.
Personally I do not care what you think, but I fail to see why decent people who, more often than not, have worked hard for the vast majority of their lives, should be made to feel that they are an unwanted burden because of comments such as "working hard to keep others" and about having big cars, holidays, posh clothes and other indications that they are living in the lap of luxury at the expense of others.
You say I seem to be taking some of the comments personally. I most certainly am not, I am however concerned for the hurt and harm which this thread and those like it do to others.
I know, you claim you are only talking about those who commit fraud, but there are people who, when sweeping comments are made, come to believe that they are being looked at in that same light and the fact that decent people are made to feel like that I find absolutely disgusting.
If you wish to keep posting things which are hurtful to those less fortunate than you then I will keep challenging your comments.
The fact that they feel that they cannot defend themselves because to do so would risk being ridiculed and sneered at, if not quite named and shamed, for not being an any condition to continue working is good enough for me to defend them.
People who are fit to work should work. Those who claim benefits (and I have been there!) should only claim them if they can't find a job or aren't fit to work. However it is not your right to claim benefits because you have decided to have a bit of time out and expect others to keep you and your family. Thank goodness we have a benefits system for those that need it. However I am sure there are many that shouldn't and that is who Sam, quite rightly imo, doesn't want to pay for.
There should be no stigma for those on benefits for genuine reasons.
I wouldn't waste too much of your time on this Sam - until the benefits system changes we are going to have to keep those who aren't. You are never going to convince some people that it isn't their right to be kept!
Just for the record I haven't posted for a while cos I've been busy with my family, working and enjoying life not because I don't agree with one person or another!
Some people keep saying Sam is getting at them, - well maybe it's a case of "if the cap fits.................."
You are getting a exactly what you intended to in your first post.
You start a Thread which you say is only about people who are committing benefit fraud and the one thing you fail to mention in the post which started the thread is the "Fraud" part.
You then complain that it was obvious what you meant even though you didn't say so and that I, for one, should have realised what you meant, even though it wasn't there.
Now you are complaining that I should not be seeing things in your posts which are not there because you did not specifically put them there.
Should I take your first post to mean only what is there and not read the "Fraud" part into it because you did not specifically mention it?
Or should I make assumptions about your first post by reading “Fraud” into it and if so then why should I not make the same sort of assumptions about things which you fail to mention in your later posts.
The whole tone of your posts and those of others have certainly given the impression that there is some sort of shame attached to receiving benefits, fraudulently or otherwise.
I have become aware that there are some people on the Forum who are genuinely receiving benefits who have suffered distress by some of the hurtful comments which have been made. They have been made to feel that they are somehow at fault for having been, either through ill health or other reasons, placed in such a position.
Personally I do not care what you think, but I fail to see why decent people who, more often than not, have worked hard for the vast majority of their lives, should be made to feel that they are an unwanted burden because of comments such as "working hard to keep others" and about having big cars, holidays, posh clothes and other indications that they are living in the lap of luxury at the expense of others.
You say I seem to be taking some of the comments personally. I most certainly am not, I am however concerned for the hurt and harm which this thread and those like it do to others.
I know, you claim you are only talking about those who commit fraud, but there are people who, when sweeping comments are made, come to believe that they are being looked at in that same light and the fact that decent people are made to feel like that I find absolutely disgusting.
If you wish to keep posting things which are hurtful to those less fortunate than you then I will keep challenging your comments.
The fact that they feel that they cannot defend themselves because to do so would risk being ridiculed and sneered at, if not quite named and shamed, for not being an any condition to continue working is good enough for me to defend them.
Jaws there you go again on about my first post, I have already said that i could of explained it better So why are you still going on about it?
I have explained myself over & over to you but still it is falling on deaf ears.
I have said numerous times that there are plenty of decent folks out there who are getting benefits, i even know people who are claiming and are struggling to live on what they get, but they are also doing everything within their power to find employment, i also know people who are claiming invalidity benefit because they are unfit to work and who if they had the chance would love nothing more that to have their health so they could get a job.
people like this i have respect for
I do however have a problem with the ones who cheat the system or dont want to work because it is so unfair on all the genuine folk.
And no Jaws there is no shame attached to genuinely claiming benefits, it is only you who keeps bringing this up
no doubt you will come back again & again going over the same old ground it is what i am becoming to expect for you.
We do need to make provision for those who need financial help due to illness or other unforeseen misfortune.
I would never rush to judge anybody receiving benefits, just because they were, and I would try not to make sweeping statements about them either.
I have been in this situation myself...you never know what's round the corner, and it can be a very painful discovery.
However, imo, that's very, very different from actually planning a lifestyle financed solely or substantially by other people. :confused
Very well put and agrees with comments that many here are making. It is that "lifestyle finance" that is the real issue. Benefits are there, and we all get them to some degree all the time, but if there is fraud, if people try and finance their own lifestyle and way of life by taking advantage of the system, that is wrong.
The only reason that I keep bringing it up is that there are people who, whether they ought to feel that way or not, do so.
No matter how many times it is said that it is only those who are committing fraud who are being discussed they, none the less, perhaps because there are no visible signs of their illness assume, and often quite correctly, that many people are making exactly the same comments about them.
"They look perfectly healthy to me so why are they not working? They must be lying to get their benefit!"
There are always those who are only too willing to feed their own egos by pointing the finger at those less fortunate than themselves.
People who do not know the full circumstances quite often assume the worst of others, and I think you will agree, it’s not very nice when somebody does that.
The only reason that I keep bringing it up is that there are people who, whether they ought to feel that way or not, do so.
No matter how many times it is said that it is only those who are committing fraud who are being discussed they, none the less, perhaps because there are no visible signs of their illness assume, and often quite correctly, that many people are making exactly the same comments about them.
"They look perfectly healthy to me so why are they not working? They must be lying to get their benefit!"
There are always those who are only too willing to feed their own egos by pointing the finger at those less fortunate than themselves.
People who do not know the full circumstances quite often assume the worst of others, and I think you will agree, it’s not very nice when somebody does that.
I can see you're point to degree, I suffered an illness myself that made it difficult for me to work as the pain was more often than not excrutiating, My condition wasnt always apparent to others and yes i had to claim benefits for a time, but i hadnt done anything wrong so i had nothing to feel guilty about, on saying that i know there are some who are sensitive and will feel guilty regardless.
I have never disputed this,But that still doesnt get away from the fact that it is wrong to defraud the system or to decide that you dont want to work and that is what i am on about, surely even you cant say that these folk are within their rights
The problem lies with the Government who should make sure that when people start working they should be able to retain more of the money they earn.
Raising personal allowances before taxation starts, which have hardly been raised for a decade or so, to a realistic level would be a start. Having a tax free allowance for those bringing up children would also be beneficial for people in work.
The personal allowance, before you start paying tax, is about £5,000 a year. If somebody is working for the minimum wage they will be earning just over £10,000 per year so they will immediately be having tax taken off them.
The minimum wage, by it's very name, means that it is the absolute minimum a full time worker should receive in order to live, yet they start taking Tax when a person has earned half that amount. That is besides all the other amounts taken by the Government by way of National Insurance etc.
OK, so that's a very simplified version of what happens but it does give a good example of the crazy situation we are in.
The Government grabs as much as it can even from those workers who are on low pay in order to give some of it back by way of tax credits etc. as if it was doing them a huge favour.
That is the situation which needs sorting out so many workers are not having to run very hard in order to stand still. When it comes to people who are put in that position I can well understand their frustration.
It's time that people on poor wages were taken completely out of the tax system until their wages get to a reasonable level.
Once people can see that they are financially far better off working there will be less of a temptation not to work.
It's the simple use of the carrot rather than the stick. Of course, the problem from the Governments point of view is that people will feel far less beholden to them to get a decent standard of living.
j4bberw0ck
21-Mar-07, 10:45
The problem lies with the Government who should make sure that when people start working they should be able to retain more of the money they earn.
Absolutely right. The lowest paid in this country bear the highest marginal rates of tax and all because of the benefits system.
Flat rate income tax is the answer. First say £12,000 tax free for everyone, then 33% off every £1 thereafter without limit, which seems to be in the right sort of area for a revenue neutral changeover. No tax reliefs, no differential rates of tax, no ifs and buts, no allowances, no tax credits - and so no (or at worst, very little) evasion or avoidance.
And anyone who thinks 33% per taxable pound is a bit high for a tax rate - it's what you pay now (basic rate + NI). And the average earner would be paying tax on fewer pounds anyway.
And just think how many expensive public sector jobs and pensions could be done away with, sorry, I mean of course "encouraged into employment elsewhere within the economy", if the job of monitoring taxes was to be reduced to adding up a company's wages bill, deducting £12,000 per employee, and taking 33% of the remainder.
Flat rate income tax is the answer. First say £12,000 tax free for everyone, then 33% off every £1 thereafter without limit, which seems to be in the right sort of area for a revenue neutral changeover. No tax reliefs, no differential rates of tax, no ifs and buts, no allowances, no tax credits - and so no (or at worst, very little) evasion or avoidance.
And just think how many expensive public sector jobs and pensions could be done away with, sorry, I mean of course "encouraged into employment elsewhere within the economy"
I had been thinking along the same lines as JAWS and Jw0ck...but they have kindly sorted out my thoughts for me!:)
The current tax threshold is unrealistically low and imo should be raised to what a person earns working full-time and paid the minimum wage, so that the full amount is theirs to keep.
No doubt the government likes to gather all the money in, so that it's "theirs" to redistribute in the form of tax credits and other benefits...the whole process is cumbersome, expensive, and unfair. It makes a lot of extra work for small businesses too.
Raising the tax threshold would both encourage people on benefits who are able to work to do so, and would make those who are working hard for low pay feel that their efforts are more valued.
j4bberw0ck
21-Mar-07, 12:43
I found some really interesting stuff while Googling..... in 1601 the Elizabethan Poor Laws were passed, but what was really interesting were some of the laws passed after the Reformation and before 1601.
Check this out; it many ways it's superior to the system we have now, with benefits in place:
1552: Parish registers of the poor were introduced so that there was an official record of those who fell into the category of 'poor'.
1563: Justices of the Peace were authorised and empowered to raise compulsory funds for the relief of the poor and, for the first time, the poor were put into different categories.
(a) those who would work but could not: these were the able-bodied or deserving poor. They were to be given help either through outdoor relief or by being given work in return for a wage.
(b) those who could work but would not: these were the idle poor. They were to be whipped through the streets, publicly, until they learned the error of their ways.
(c) those who were too old/ill/young to work: these were the impotent or deserving poor. They were to be looked after in almshouses, hospitals, orphanages or poor houses. Orphans and children of the poor were to be given a trade apprenticeship so that they would have a trade to pursue when they grew up.
What a neat solution! Granted, an almshouse, hospital or orphanage was probably not a great place to be in the 1500's but how about the enlightened piece of thinking around "being given work in return for pay" and the requirement for orphans and children of the poor to be given an apprenticeship.
Perhaps those folk had (in some ways) a better understanding of social pressures than we do now.... though the benefits system today complicates the picture for those in (b), who can find themselves worse off if they work. :roll:
j4bberw0ck
21-Mar-07, 17:33
Here is a table showing the % of gross household income paid in taxes (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070222/text/70222w0005.htm) for all taxpayers, banded by deciles of income, over the past 10 years. The lowest decile pays the highest effective rate. Source should be OK - it's Hansard.
Penelope Pitstop
21-Mar-07, 19:57
(b) those who could work but would not: these were the idle poor. They were to be whipped through the streets, publicly, until they learned the error of their ways.
lol, j4bberw0rk, where do you find these nuggets! lol, [lol]
Can you imagine that happening these days??!!!![lol] lol ........... OMG Think of the paperwork....Method Statement....Risk Assessment.....lol
The reason i asked how people on benefits can afford all the luxuries i have stated is because i know of a good few who can afford all this whilst claiming benefits and they have openly admited that they couldnt afford it all if they were to work.
I am more than curious as to how someone on benefits can afford to go abroad on holiday with their family and run around in a nearly new car and i know i am not the only one who would like to know how this is done.
Because there is no way it is affordable on just benefits.
Here we go again... the point is that you dont know what benefits people are getting or where they are getting their money from. I already mentioned my friend that has Hep C she has a nice new landrover she takes a couple of holidays to turkey a year, IN fact she had three holidays this year because she went to Florida as well.
People look at her and see a fit healthy looking woman - maybe a bit thin, nice tan though, all these luxuries and holidays and hrmph its ok for some cos she ll be getting her rent paid and her council tax and we have to pay our own way and cant afford even one holiday a year never mind a new car.....
She gets incapacity benefit, she also gets a pension from her last employer which she left due to ill health. She doesnt qualify for rent and council tax rebates so pays those and she gets her nice new car through motability because despite looking ok she cant walk very far. Her holidays are to a house that bought with the copmpensation money she got for catching HepC from an infected blood transfusion and the holiday to florida was paid for by her ex partner because he got some redundancy money and took her and the children and the grandchildren all away. She couldnt afford all this if she was working, thats absolutely true, She couldnt afford a new car and a holiday, she couldnt afford to holiday in turkey and florida without compensation money she recieved but do you really begrudge her those things?
You dont know if mum and dad help out, you dont know if someone is up to their eyes in debt, you dont know if someone has other income that is completely legal and thats the point.
I have another one to make but ill do it later :D
Here we go again... the point is that you dont know what benefits people are getting or where they are getting their money from. I already mentioned my friend that has Hep C she has a nice new landrover she takes a couple of holidays to turkey a year, IN fact she had three holidays this year because she went to Florida as well.
People look at her and see a fit healthy looking woman - maybe a bit thin, nice tan though, all these luxuries and holidays and hrmph its ok for some cos she ll be getting her rent paid and her council tax and we have to pay our own way and cant afford even one holiday a year never mind a new car.....
She gets incapacity benefit, she also gets a pension from her last employer which she left due to ill health. She doesnt qualify for rent and council tax rebates so pays those and she gets her nice new car through motability because despite looking ok she cant walk very far. Her holidays are to a house that bought with the copmpensation money she got for catching HepC from an infected blood transfusion and the holiday to florida was paid for by her ex partner because he got some redundancy money and took her and the children and the grandchildren all away. She couldnt afford all this if she was working, thats absolutely true, She couldnt afford a new car and a holiday, she couldnt afford to holiday in turkey and florida without compensation money she recieved but do you really begrudge her those things?
You dont know if mum and dad help out, you dont know if someone is up to their eyes in debt, you dont know if someone has other income that is completely legal and thats the point.
I have another one to make but ill do it later :D
Squidge, i have already explained myself more than once and i dont see why i should have to keep saying the same things over & over because some people only want to pick out certain posts, had you read all of my posts you would be aware that i am talking about the people who cheat the system and those who really dont want to work, its these folk who are giveing the likes of your friend a bad name.
You say that there are very few people who dont want to work or are cheating the system how do you know this, I cant imagine any of them going to sign on and saying "oh by the way i dont want to work" or " oh i forgot to say i am cheating the system".
I know of 4 families all living in the same street who admit to their friends and family that they are claiming as being single when they arent and they or their partners are working on the side, I also know that they have been reported more than once by different people and nothing has been done, so how many others are there like that, they will tell you themselves that they are better off on the dole than working.
You also say that we dont know if someone is getting help from family or friends even if they are it is still classed as extra /other income and should be declaired the same as if you do work paid or unpaid, i though even you would know that.
There is a very big difference from someone who is genuinely ill or unemployed to someone who doesnt want to work or is claiming to have something wrong with them when they havent. I know 6 brothers 1 who is self employed 1 who has full time work the other 4 all have bad backs and are unfit to work yet they can work on cars help build houses amazing how they can do these things but cant work.
Why isnt the government clamping down on folk like this instead of being far to lenient and letting them get away with it, it's an insult to genuine folk who really do deserve it.
Now Squidge, you know full well that you have only ever lived in an Ivory Tower in really posh areas.
You know full well that you have never seen an area suffering deprivation. ;)
Now Squidge, you know full well that you have only ever lived in an Ivory Tower in really posh areas.
You know full well that you have never seen an area suffering deprivation. ;)
I see you are back with you're strongest feature lol, sarcasm ....the lowest form of wit, need i say anymore:rolleyes:
Aye, but it usually hits the right spot. You obviously believe that those who do not agree with you must have always lived in some sort of cloistered world situated in some Utopia and have no knowledge of reality.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Aye, but it usually hits the right spot. You obviously believe that those who do not agree with you must have always lived in some sort of cloistered world situated in some Utopia and have no knowledge of reality.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
For goodness sake Jaws it's real life, there for anyone to see what is going on around them, I dont expect everyone to share my opinions, what a sad world it would be if we all thought the same, but i am entitled to say why i feel they way i do about things the same as anyone else.
You are just trying to change the subject because, as i said there was no need for you're sarcasm, all you are trying to do is stir things up again with you're little sarcastic jibes, childish or what?
I obviously mistook you for someone who was supposed to care about the genuine folk claiming benefits, but i stand corrected because all you seem to do is try to make snide sarcastic remarks instead of showing genuine concern.[disgust]
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