Flora Bremner 1824 - 1870

[Mike Brown]

Hello Everyone. While googling around and before I registered for this forum, I stumbled across a pretty ancient thread concerning the family of James Bremner,my 5th great grandfather b. 1751 & Ann Sutherland.

The thread in question also featured a granddaughter of theirs, Flora Bremner 1824 - 1870, and it is information about her I would like to both, share and find out about.

The thread touched on the fact that she married a Charles Gray at age 19 in 1844 in Manchester Cathedral no less. It also noted that she died in 1870 in Perth Prison of general debility. Like the poster way back in '05 I too wondered why a seemingly grand wedding would ultimately lead to a sorry end in prison. What heinious crime did she commit? That wasn't a rhetorical question ,lol. If any one does know the circumstances I'd love to know.

I do know more about the Cathedral wedding. Around about the time of the wedding a new law was passed which made it a requirement of any marriage(except for those between either Jews or Quakers) for the ceremony to be held in the couple's parish church. Manchester Cathedral just happened to be their parish church.

The well known and usually accurate trees of brebner/bremner.com,states of Flora & Charles that there were no children - in Scotland. But there was a son, Robert, born in England, and at the time of the 30 March 1851 Census, he was aged 5. The three of them were living in lodgings on Old Shorehead, Arbroath.

What became of Charles & Robert after that I do not know, and as mentioned previously, Flora ended up in the prison.

I am part o f the Bremner family through my mother's side, her gran was Alice Bremner 1874 - 1944.

Right then. If anyone has any information that may help me discover more about my family I'd love to hear from them. I would also be willing to share any relevant info that I may be able to in return.

Thanks to anyone that has taken the time to read this.

Mike Brown, Fife.

[Mike Brown]

Well I didn't think I'd be the first person to reply to my own thread but for anyone interested I think I have finally solved the mystery of Flora's prison predicament. I may seem light hearted but it does appear to be a sorry case.

I discovered tonight a site called The Newspaper Archive. http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

there I registered for free and gained 15 credits (enough for 3 views). I simply entered Flora's name, a date range and a newspaper title, The Dundee Courier in this case and I discovered quite a number of articles that Flora is mentioned, the last of which pretty much draws a line under things.

From The Courier of 21 April 1866:

THEFT OF A BEDCOVER

Flora Bremner or Gray, Dundee was charged with having on the 28th of March last, stolen from the railing of a stair in Cowgate, Dundee, a bedcover, the property of James Sandy, carpet weaver, then residing with Francis Ann Gilbert or Young. The charge was aggravated by the accused having been six times previously convicted. The prisoner pleaded not guilty. It appeared from the evidence that after the prisoner had stolen the bedcover she had immediately pawned it at the Equitable Loans Company's office, where it was found within half an hour of the crime being commited. The jury almost at once returned a verdict of guilty as libelled. The prisoner was sentenced to seven years penal servitude.


Almost exactly four years later, poor Flora died in prison.

While this does explain why she was in prison, it doesn't paint the picture of why in between the 1851 census in Arbroath she was facing convictions as early as 1860 in Dundee. What happened to husband Charles? Where was her son Robert. If alive he would have been about 20 at time of sentence.

There is massive scope for conjecture and we may never learn the full story, but personally I think it's a sad, sad tale, for all concerned. Seven years for stealing a bedcover! Oh dear.

[Tricia]

I assume you may have seen this tree on the Brebner(Bremner) site http://www.brebner.com/uploads/bre13599.pdf
Showing Flora as daughter of Sutherland Bremner. He had a large family.
Interesting reading.
Yes 7 years seems long but others were often sent overseas for same crime which in some cases turned out better eventually a better future.
I have Bremner and Sutherland in Caithness but so far not found link to James and Ann

[Tricia]

1861 Charles and Robert together in Dundee. Note Charles b Dumfriess

Name: Charles Gray Age: 50 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811 Relationship: Head Gender: Male Where born: Dumfries, dumfriesh Registration number: 282/2 Registration District: Dundee Second District Civil Parish: Dundee County: Angus Address: Emlsly Occupation: Polisher (french) ED: 1 Household Schedule Number: 150 Line: 5 Roll: CSSCT1861_40 Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Gray 50
Robert Gray 16 b England French Polisher

Just realized that entry says Robert GRAY NEPHEW!!!!

[Mike Brown]

Thanks Tricia. Nephew eh? Strange, on 1851 census Robert is clearly shown as 'son'.

Just the pair of them in 1861. Flora was getting herself into trouble by 1860, so by 1861 they may have already separated or she may even have been in the jail then.

With Sutherlands & Bremners all over the place it's hard to imagine that we are not all related in some way if we can go back far enough.

Time will tell I suppose.

Thanks for replying.

Mike

[Tricia]

Hi Mike
I had a quick look for Charles and his son after 1861 but nothing so far. They were both French polisher so that may help in an 1871 census -
They of course could have gone overseas.
Tricia
born a MORE in Wick.

[Tighsonas4]

hi tricia have we been in touch before as i was curious to know have you any connections to mores in wick or thrumster area my other half is a more [sarclet] regards tony

[Tricia]

Hi
Yes - I imagine all MORE in Caithness relate. Which line is your other half. I have contact with some current Wick MORE related families. email facebook etc.
My line in Sarclet from at least 1700.
What topic did we share before on here? can't find history of posts.
Tricia
born a MORE in Wick.