View Full Version : Save the Berriedale Braes
Surferbill
10-Oct-13, 10:53
I hope they leave the Braes alone, i see them more as iconic rather than notorious, A welcome bit of interest while driving up the road. Not sure how they can be seen as a stumbling block to the Caithness economy for decades. How much time is going to saved on the journey north 2 or 3 minutes? Hundreds of Lorries seem to manged them fine every day well maybe not hundreds but you know what i mean, while a hand full have problems every year, maybe less than 0.1%.
Is stopping these few lorries a year getting stuck going to save the economy?
I think Tourists would prefer they way they are just now rather than the way Dunbeath looks with the flyover.
yip I agree its part of the natural country side and yeh lorries have tackled it for year ,I feel most experienced driver should manage the road and drive also to the road conditions .
I LOVE driving both up and down the braes, especially in my MG midget. A really exhillerating experience. Better at night time, when the lights of oncoming vehicles can be seen. When nothing is coming the other way, I can put my foot down and enjoy the ride. Keeping within the speed limits of course!
Berriedale Braes are very Dangerous especially if you meet a large lorry either going up or down as they reqiure the whole road to turn the bad corner. The sooner they can do someting to reduce or remove ther Braes the better and safer it will be to drive on the A9.
changilass
10-Oct-13, 12:25
Berriedale Braes are not dangerous. Its nutters who need to retake their test that are dangerous.
You can see lorries on the sharp bend, just give them a bit of space its not rocket science, just good manners.
Relax peeps, the Braes have been here since forever and are going nowhere anytime soon.
I do hope we can have the road detoured or a flyover installed to dodge them though.
David Banks
10-Oct-13, 16:00
Berriedale Braes are very Dangerous especially if you meet a large lorry either going up or down as they reqiure the whole road to turn the bad corner. The sooner they can do someting to reduce or remove ther Braes the better and safer it will be to drive on the A9.
I'm with you on this one, Kodiak.
Roads should not be designed for "experienced" drivers only. In my view, the signs on either side of the braes have never sufficiently warned drivers of what was ahead.
I have as much nostalgia as the next person about the braes (ask me, if you want to be bored to death), but safety for all drivers and passengers should come first.
I'm with you on this one, Kodiak.
Roads should not be designed for "experienced" drivers only. In my view, the signs on either side of the braes have never sufficiently warned drivers of what was ahead.
I have as much nostalgia as the next person about the braes (ask me, if you want to be bored to death), but safety for all drivers and passengers should come first.
By virtue of being a driver then you are experienced.
changilass
10-Oct-13, 18:04
If you aint experienced enough to drive the Braes then you either havn't taken your test yet or you need to take another. There are other roads in the UK very similar. I have never seen a sign saying they are limited in any way to only certain drivers.
David Banks
10-Oct-13, 18:06
By virtue of being a driver then you are experienced.
Let me guess.
You have never worked for a company which provides driver insurance.
Let me guess.
You have never worked for a company which provides driver insurance.
I am not an insurance agent no
What has that to do with Berridale Braes?
If you aint experienced enough to drive the Braes then you either havn't taken your test yet or you need to take another. There are other roads in the UK very similar. I have never seen a sign saying they are limited in any way to only certain drivers.
AHH! as usual, engaging the fingers to type before engaging the brain!. So in over 20 years of hauling whatever you care to name, all over Europe and on occasion the far east you suddenly decide i need to resit my driving test because i got caught out on the braes???? I have negotiated the braes a few hundred times come hail, rain or shine yet the twice i was caught out was once in the middle of summer when the road surface was melting and i lost traction hauling 25 tonnes and the second time was when a nutter came flying down when i was on the hairpin and i had to stop. YOU try getting going again in the pissing rain with an artic when you are on the hairpin! NOT EASY!
changilass
10-Oct-13, 20:38
Where exactly did I say that having a freak accident meant you wern't fit to drive the Braes.
Read before typing, and stop being so blooming touchy.
AHH! as usual, engaging the fingers to type before engaging the brain!. So in over 20 years of hauling whatever you care to name, all over Europe and on occasion the far east you suddenly decide i need to resit my driving test because i got caught out on the braes???? I have negotiated the braes a few hundred times come hail, rain or shine yet the twice i was caught out was once in the middle of summer when the road surface was melting and i lost traction hauling 25 tonnes and the second time was when a nutter came flying down when i was on the hairpin and i had to stop. YOU try getting going again in the pissing rain with an artic when you are on the hairpin! NOT EASY!I'm not having a dig here but if following the law are you allowed to enter the opposite lane in an HGV to negotiate a bend?
I'm not having a dig here but if following the law are you allowed to enter the opposite lane in an HGV to negotiate a bend?
Yes.
..........
ahh, good old MI6 with his nit-picking again [lol]....If you actually do use the braes then you will have seen the BIG SIGN that warns you to beware that oncoming vehicles may be on your side of the road! if it wasn't a legal maneuver, would the sign be there? more to the point, if it wasn't a legal move then HGV's wouldn't be able to use the braes at all because they simply could not negotiate the bend on their own side of the road....oh, and not to mention many other roads and junctions, bends and wherever else they don't fit in the rest of the world!.
oh, just to let you know exactly where the sign is....
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=58.185535,-3.498706&spn=0.000006,0.004823&t=f&z=18&layer=c&cbll=58.185536,-3.498707&panoid=5B1JzzWZjl4hkmQWub-OyQ&cbp=13,167.18,,2,1.41
ahh, good old MI6 with his nit-picking again [lol]....If you actually do use the braes then you will have seen the BIG SIGN that warns you to beware that oncoming vehicles may be on your side of the road! if it wasn't a legal maneuver, would the sign be there? more to the point, if it wasn't a legal move then HGV's wouldn't be able to use the braes at all because they simply could not negotiate the bend on their own side of the road....oh, and not to mention many other roads and junctions, bends and wherever else they don't fit in the rest of the world!.
oh, just to let you know exactly where the sign is....
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=58.185535,-3.498706&spn=0.000006,0.004823&t=f&z=18&layer=c&cbll=58.185536,-3.498707&panoid=5B1JzzWZjl4hkmQWub-OyQ&cbp=13,167.18,,2,1.41 I wasn't nit picking, it was a genuine question to which you provided a detailed and thorough response. Many thanks kind sir.
yip I agree its part of the natural country side and yeh lorries have tackled it for year ,I feel most experienced driver should manage the road and drive also to the road conditions .
If we don't need road improvements then why aren't we still driving on dirt tracks?
no problem at all good sir, always happy to oblige :D
If we don't need road improvements then why aren't we still driving on dirt tracks?
Erm....have you seen the road between Thurso and Wick of late? after the coming winter, it will be a dirt track!
cullpacket
10-Oct-13, 22:27
Have to agree the Braes are one of nicest spots in Caithness hell it has trees a rare sight up hear and there are not many Glacial valleys in Caithness. The road is not that busy, At what cost? Who pays for this? Money spent on something more useful !!
Erm....have you seen the road between Thurso and Wick of late? after the coming winter, it will be a dirt track!
Good point... at least donnick won't be bothered.
Have to agree the Braes are one of nicest spots in Caithness hell it has trees a rare sight up hear and there are not many Glacial valleys in Caithness...
Another good point... Just imagine what it would look like from an overpass high over the valley.
Heck the tourist routes will have it as a brown route to go through even if there is a bypass.
The bypass can accomodate the lorries etc and commuters etc while the tourist route on the bends etc can accomodate the tourists and traditionalists that love the bends...BTW the bends were out of the date after steam......and horse and cart times...
George Brims
11-Oct-13, 18:28
If we don't need road improvements then why aren't we still driving on dirt tracks?
My uncle Stanley was a geologist who did field work in Caithness from the 1930s onwards. He told me the first time he negotiated the Braes they weren't paved, and some people had to go up in reverse as that was the only gear low enough for their cars to make it!
ahh, good old MI6 with his nit-picking again [lol]....If you actually do use the braes then you will have seen the BIG SIGN that warns you to beware that oncoming vehicles may be on your side of the road! if it wasn't a legal maneuver, would the sign be there? more to the point, if it wasn't a legal move then HGV's wouldn't be able to use the braes at all because they simply could not negotiate the bend on their own side of the road....oh, and not to mention many other roads and junctions, bends and wherever else they don't fit in the rest of the world!.
oh, just to let you know exactly where the sign is....
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=58.185535,-3.498706&spn=0.000006,0.004823&t=f&z=18&layer=c&cbll=58.185536,-3.498707&panoid=5B1JzzWZjl4hkmQWub-OyQ&cbp=13,167.18,,2,1.41
Exactly the Braes were ok 100 yrs ago when the horse n cart ,s were on the go , even 50/60 years ago before artics were going up here , as Gaz said , try stopping on the north turn with 40 ft of trailer and 30 something ton on board.
The Braes really are a joke in these modern times. if they were in the central belt a by pass would have been done years before now. but the traffic up here is increasing every year. By all mean s keep them for tourism.
Tugmistress
11-Oct-13, 20:34
Just on a personal note, the first time i came across Berriedale Braes was during the night and towing a caravan. I don't consider myself a perfect driver or even a very good one, but i do consider myself competent to be able to handle the vehicle i am driving at the time. Although i was tired and the hairpin 'snuck up' on me, i managed to get around and up with no problems. Now the caravan wasn't empty, i was in the process of moving up here and had inside what i needed to last me a few weeks and a large 4ft square metal weld mesh dog pen for my GSD, full butane gas bottles of 15kg x2 and a 25 litre water container full of fresh water.
Yes it slows the journey down a little, i can see both sides of the story here, and in honesty if i had the choice i would probably use a flyover if it existed but i think i would still do the braes with any visitors to the area just for the hell of it ;)
If a flyover or detour is installed, will the road as is remain open?
If a flyover or detour is installed, will the road as is remain open?
Most likely as there are people living at the bottom of the brae so they will need access. Probably what will happen is a junction will be made to join the new road at either side of the braes or they might just close off the hill altogether and have a dead-end access road to the local residents area on the south side of the new road.
Exactly the Braes were ok 100 yrs ago when the horse n cart ,s were on the go , even 50/60 years ago before artics were going up here , as Gaz said , try stopping on the north turn with 40 ft of trailer and 30 something ton on board.
The Braes really are a joke in these modern times. if they were in the central belt a by pass would have been done years before now. but the traffic up here is increasing every year. By all mean s keep them for tourism. Artics should have no problem, they can turn in their own length easily. I remember when 6 or 8 wheel rigid lorries did the Braes and had to do 2 or 3 shunts to get round.and the road was o lot narrower then!.
Artics should have no problem, they can turn in their own length easily.
yeah, normally its not a problem but when you have poor road surface conditions on that hairpin such as rain, snow or ice then its a pain to negotiate even with the high friction surface coating. I can guarantee that many truckers fear getting stuck on that bend. older rigids had the turning circle of a brick and it was often the same with small roundabouts and many drivers just turned left or right instead of actually using the roundabout as it should be. just to let most people realise how difficult it really is negotiating the braes at times, i recently hauled several 20 tonnes loads of rock through the braes heading south in an 8 wheeler DAF and on the south rise i was in 1st gear for most of the climb. The revs rose to a point where a gear change to 2nd was needed but soon as you did change up, the truck slowed to a point where you had to change back down again or stop and start over. It's a similar scenario northbound, where a 17 tonne load on a rigid in the wet recently was also fun with me having to use diff-lock to avoid losing traction on the hairpin northbound due to the rain being so heavy! it was literally flowing over the road. Because the bend is so tight, when you start to come back on yourself on the hairpin, the rear inner wheel can lose traction or in some cases even lift off the road surface as happened recently with an artic which was poorly loaded and had most of the weight over the trailer axles instead of being spread over the bed of the trailer. Once you are past the point where the trailer has been "pulled" out of the normal drive path direction, you cannot reverse back down the brae without it hitting the barrier. This is the most common of problems with artics having to be towed out of the bend
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-13, 01:49
Denial of the need to upgrade the road at Berriedale exemplifies the drive for mediocrity in our County, and indeed in our Country - the latter being a trait that's especially prevalent amongst secessionists.
The good news is that it can be cured! :cool:
The good news is that it can be cured! :cool:
Aye, unlike you! [lol]
Southern-Gal
12-Oct-13, 10:49
When we moved up here our stuff was all packed in two twenty foot shipping containers and put on an artic lorry and trailer. On the drivers first attempt to come up the braes he obviously had to move onto the opposite side of the road to get round the hairpin and a car driver stopped him in his tracks. He had to reverse to have another run at it as it would not set off from a standstill. The load was very heavy, up to his limit and it dragged him backwards, and it is fair to say he was worried! Getting a grip was the problem the tarmac is so smooth on the corner. The chap we used lives in a very hilly and trappy part of Lancashire where he is often called to lift containers from remote farms, dirt tracks and other places where other haulage contractors wont go but he was caught out by the braes.
I can see why people want them changed but I like them. I do think that part of the attraction of Caithness is the fact that it has been kept back a bit due in part possibly to the braes preventing big businesses from moving up here. I can see both sides.
If there was a flyover I would definitely use it when towing my horse trailer as I didnt like it the first time I towed ponies up it but I do think nipping down in a car I would go through the braes for a look most times unless I was in a mad rush.
Just yesterday it was announced that the age of drivers taking their tests was going to be put up to 18 from 17 in an attempt to cut down the road deaths of young people. I think this is not far enough and actually think that it should be put up to 21 not just to cut down on accidents but to stop the volume of cars on the road from creeping up as fast as it is.
How many deaths in Caithness are down to the braes compared to deaths everywhere else up here? I would bet the roads that allow people to drive too fast are the ones causing the accidents not the one that they have some respect for!
Overall I would prefer the braes to stay as they are I think :)
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-13, 12:36
In one breath, the people of our County are complaining about the lack of investment and the lack of jobs.
In another breath, they're complaining about proposed investment to replace a dangerous part of the road - one which inhibits investment, transport and tourism.
This sending out of contradictory signals must deter every potential investor!
Southern-Gal
12-Oct-13, 14:08
Or it could be the grumpy people putting investors off? :roll:
Or it could be the grumpy people putting investors off? :roll:Do you know of many investors that have gone elsewhere because of berridale?
you gotta take into account that the back wheels of artic s take a far different line than the front of the unit . longer the unit more space the front needs to take . artic s have to take the opposite lane to get the trailer round, so if some clown do,snt
wait and give space (particulary on berridale) to trucks . make s getting going again very difficult.
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-13, 14:48
Do you know of many investors that have gone elsewhere because of berridale?Yes, of course.
Yes, of course.
care to elaborate and let us know exactly which investors blamed Berriedale for them not setting up shop in Caithness.
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-13, 15:25
you gotta take into account that the back wheels of artic s take a far different line than the front of the unit . longer the unit more space the front needs to take . artic s have to take the opposite lane to get the trailer round, so if some clown do,snt
wait and give space (particulary on berridale) to trucks . make s getting going again very difficult.Indeed, and that's why the infamous bend is so dangerous - to both truck driver and to those who meet trucks on the bend.
Is there any other trunk road in the country that has such an appalling stretch?
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-13, 15:30
One close friend has withdrawn from opening a business in Caithness because of poor road transport links for large vehicles. He cited Berriedale in particular.
Another has withdrawn due to the policy of this the owners of this website! He says no-one can advertise successfully in the Business section of this forum because of its policy of spamming the business forum by Newsbot! According to him, this policy means that, to a first approximation, no-one reads any genuine exploratory posts in the business forum! Obviously, lack of advertising on this forum alone didn't cause him to withdraw, but the attitude of the owner contributed significantly to his decision!
I have pointed out this problem on his behalf on several occasions, but I've been ignored. It's not my problem, it's the problem of the people of Caithness as a whole. If you agree, you need to deal with it!
changilass
12-Oct-13, 16:36
Your pal could alus pay for advertising like you do everywhere else.
Surely you don't expect a community website to change for your pal just because he is a skinflint and willnae pay for advertising.
i alus though advertising was a business expenditure.
Sounds like your pal has chucked his toys out of his pram just cos thinks aint going his way. If thats his attitude I doubt he will last long in business.
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-13, 16:40
On the contrary, he is very successful, and that's why he's expanding so rapidly.
He doesn't suffer fools, and he won't invest in communities that discourage investment. He was testing the water in Caithness, but it turned out to be cold and dirty - his words, not mine.
One close friend has withdrawn from opening a business in Caithness because of poor road transport links for large vehicles. He cited Berriedale in particular.Where did your friend take his business in the end?Must have been shifting some big kit if a 40' articulated lorry couldn't handle it.
highlander2222
12-Oct-13, 19:40
Berriedale Braes are very Dangerous especially if you meet a large lorry either going up or down as they reqiure the whole road to turn the bad corner. The sooner they can do someting to reduce or remove ther Braes the better and safer it will be to drive on the A9.
Agree 100%
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-13, 20:16
Where did your friend take his business in the end?Must have been shifting some big kit if a 40' articulated lorry couldn't handle it.He was trying to get into transportation for the oil and marine energy businesses in the North. I think he's given up on the idea for now. I don't know anything about the size of his trucks, sorry.
After reading about the articulated lorry driver (BIG GAZ) scary moments I am not adhered to changing my view ,I possibly had my blinkers on to the proper understanding of other vehicle's on the road and the road surfaces having only driven 4x4 and cars .I still love the braes and would want them to stay but possibly with improvement's.
The best solution would be to remove HGVs from being the main carrier. Put the bulk transport of goods on Rail and Sea, leaving only local transportation required, thereby freeing up the main road from these mobile chicanes. Same goes for the A9 Inv-Perth. Simples.
The best solution would be to remove HGVs from being the main carrier. Put the bulk transport of goods on Rail and Sea, leaving only local transportation required, thereby freeing up the main road from these mobile chicanes. Same goes for the A9 Inv-Perth. Simples.At last, a sensible solution, stop sending oversized lorries up a road that was never designed for them, send the goods by rail or sea and leave the beautiful braes alone
At last, a sensible solution, stop sending oversized lorries up a road that was never designed for them, send the goods by rail or sea and leave the beautiful braes alone
& how long until some people start moaning about all these freight trains rumbling through the beautiful scenic countryside.
Bobinovich
15-Oct-13, 23:38
It looks like investigations to reroute the North hairpin are underway (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/242538-work-begins-to-help-improve-hairpin-bend-at-berriedale-braes-on-the-a9/) - the route being looked appears to be the one indicated in section 7.1 on page 14 of this report (http://www.caithness.org/posterads2008/Berriedale%20Braes%20Overview.pdf)...
& how long until some people start moaning about all these freight trains rumbling through the beautiful scenic countryside.
I won't, it couldn't happen fast enough. Unless the roads were closed and i had a small private train that was held up by freight going at a fraction of my speed limit.
I won't, it couldn't happen fast enough. Unless the roads were closed and i had a small private train that was held up by freight going at a fraction of my speed limit. firstly the speed limit is a maximum not a target, secondly there would be complaints from folk living near the nail line if massive freight trains started thundering through the towns at all hours, thirdly hgv's would still be on the roads in all areas to transport the containers from rail yards to final destination.
At last, a sensible solution, stop sending oversized lorries up a road that was never designed for them, send the goods by rail or sea and leave the beautiful braes alone
That d sure put up the price of your good s in the shops .Load onto trucks to tranport to rail head, load onto train . reload onto trucks to deliver locally . plus the extra delay, i recall when goods were transported by rail. trucking took over by price and by speed .
firstly the speed limit is a maximum not a target, secondly there would be complaints from folk living near the nail line if massive freight trains started thundering through the towns at all hours, thirdly hgv's would still be on the roads in all areas to transport the containers from rail yards to final destination.
1, it is a maximum as you say in good conditions so A; no reason to potter about holding everyone up and B; funny that with all this safety arguments on speed and conditions that are always thrown up, it is justifiable to say HGVs can use the wrong side of the road to go round corners!!
2, Trains thundering through towns, LOL. Way less than The HGVs going through every street in towns I see very little rail intrusion in towns by comparison.
3, The local transport wouldn't be any more than there is now but would free up the main routes getting rid of transport that is a hindrance traveling at a lower speed restriction on roads not designed for that purpose.
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