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Has the release of the in-flight video into the Public domain changed your views of 'friendly fire' (i prefer the 'blue on blue' terminology btw) accidents?
Personally, I thought the whole news story surrounding the release was a non event. It is old news, we know there was an accident, nothing is gonna bring him back. The pilots showed instant remorse, I felt for their mistake as well.
No one is a winner in those situations. I am glad though that the family can now start to put the past behind them.
In the fog of war there will always be mistakes. These pilots got it wrong but from the footage I have seen, and the explanation on the news, they were wrongly advised that the area was clear of coalition troops. They may have been ANG pilots but they are considered good enough to take aircraft worth over $10 million into the skies and while never having been in combat before (according to the news), will have trained on ranges in the US and on exercise. Every soldier, sailor or airman has their first taste of battle...
It was a tragic mistake, and hopefully one which improves the communications between various countries armed forces operating in the same area. Relying on orange sheets tied to the top of vehicles is harking back to the days of knights and carrying banners.
Aircraft are fitted with IFF (Identification Friend or Foe), so why not vehicles? If a pilot lines his weapons system up on an allied vehicle he should get an audible and visual warning. Trouble is an orange sheet is way cheaper than installing IFF into every vehicle - and thats what it is being exposed as the problem.
Our troops are going into battle with the bare minimum and the government (of whatever hue) should be ashamed of themselves for bleeding the services of money and equipment over recent years....
Time troops were better equipt and protected - lives are worth more than money.
The pilots showed instant remorse, I felt for their mistake as well.
But what were their emotions before the attack, was it one of sadness that they would have to kill fellow humans in defence of other humans? What was it that changed when they learnt that it was British mothers children they had bombed not Iraqi? Why is one dead human deserving of celebrations and another remorse?
The compensation culture which has crept into our country from across the Atlantic teaches us that there is no such thing as an accident, someone is always to blame. I heard yesterday of a school cancelling the sack race at the childrens sports day because they can't afford the insurance, if a child is injured someone must be to blame.
The pilots seemed to follow procedures, at least one of them saw the orange pannels and radioed in for confirmation and was told there were deffinitely no coalition troops in the area, who told him that? Where did they get their information? Did they know it for a fact or did they just say it not caring if it was true or not? Are the American military so well trained to be eager to kill that they fail to take propper safeguards?
America's appaling record for killing their friends is no accident, it all goes back to an investigation done by S. L. A. Marshall soon after WWII, an investigation which led to changes being made to the training of the American military. We saw the results in Vietnam and we are seeing them again in Iraq, we saw the results after the war in Vietnam with a different breed of vetran returning than returned from WWII and we will see it again when they return from Iraq. It isn't just foreign lives they tear apart in their lust for wealth and power it is our own servicemen's lives as well.
The record must be stuck.......
well it would apear to me that the troops killed by the us where part of the reconisance screen that can operate up to 50km forward of the (feba ) forward edge of the batle area. and the modern armoured battle field is a very fluid place to be they probably had report lines that they would radio in to hq. as for the pilots i think its a combination of buck fever and poor recognition skills in the audio you can here them refer to the orange marker panels as rockets i have no doubt that during their pre mission briefing they would have been made aware that coalition forces would display the orange marker pannels. if you go back through time and look at our involvment with the us forces they have inflicted a great deal of unnesssesary pain on friendly forces and they are not alone in this we and others have done the same but not to the same exstent. it all comes back to training and disaplin
A tragic accident of war. We (Britain) have killed our own troops and others too by mistake. What does annoy me is the fact for four years the Yanks have denied the existence of the tape. The Watergate scenario is endemic in the USA. It is a nation with the greatest amount of access to information in the Western World and also in contradiction it has the most secrets it will not part with. Yopu can esily find out neighbour Joe Bloggs credit rating and even amy minor motoring convictions on websites which charge for the personal setails of others but try to get something that affects the Governbement or Military and you are blocked.
Of course the enemy would never ever do anything as underhand as tying orange sheets to their vehicles to stop their butts getting kicked from above.....
Next time you are in a plane look down and see how much you can make out - then add the strees of flying in combat and the strains of manouvering an aircraft which is not easy to fly, whilst ensuring that you don't collide with your wingman and working the weapons system on your own (A10's are single seaters) while communicating to your base sending and receiving information and trying to decide what action to take.....
So easy isn't it?....
(Sits back and waits for the next gem from fred....)
But what were their emotions before the attack, was it one of sadness that they would have to kill fellow humans in defence of other humans? .
Who actually gives a damn about the enemy? Would the enemy give a damn about me? Would you show sadness for the enemy when he kicks your door down, holds a gun to your head and then rapes your wife?
You talked about injustice. Do you think it is justice that our soldiers are laying their lives on the line by securing oil reserves for our nation's future while you spout crap like that?
Who actually gives a damn about the enemy? Would the enemy give a damn about me? Would you show sadness for the enemy when he kicks your door down, holds a gun to your head and then rapes your wife?
You talked about injustice. Do you think it is justice that our soldiers are laying their lives on the line by securing oil reserves for our nation's future while you spout crap like that?
Hold on a second, the Iraqi forces have done nothing like that in UK or US, so what are you on about? Neither the US or he UK have ever been attacked by Iraq, so why do you call Iraq an enemy?
Of course it is not just that people are being killed in war. The culprits are Blair et al. In war there is no justice, but that doesn't justify any of the killings going on!
Hold on a second, the Iraqi forces have done nothing like that in UK or US, so what are you on about? Neither the US or he UK have ever been attacked by Iraq, so why do you call Iraq an enemy?
Of course it is not just that people are being killed in war. The culprits are Blair et al. In war there is no justice, but that doesn't justify any of the killings going on!
You have a short memory Rambler, it was not so long ago that Iraq was invading Kuwait and destroying every thing in it path. The Kuwait govermnent asked the UN for help then and we went in as part of the UN forces.
How many Brits were killed then? What happened to the captured pilots?
Memories are short. IMO we should have destroyed Saddam then.
Who actually gives a damn about the enemy? Would the enemy give a damn about me? Would you show sadness for the enemy when he kicks your door down, holds a gun to your head and then rapes your wife?
I am confident Iraq had no plans to invade Scotland in the forseable future, or America. No Iraqis have kicked down any American doors or raped American wives, on the contrary, American soldiers have kicked down Iraqi doors and raped Iraqi wives and children. Look at the pictures from Abu Ghraib, the ones that were too bad even for the News of the World to print, the ones that showed what happened to the women prisoners.
You talked about injustice. Do you think it is justice that our soldiers are laying their lives on the line by securing oil reserves for our nation's future while you spout crap like that?
Over a million dead Iraqis before we even invaded and heading towards another million since. Just how may women and children do you think it's justifiable to kill to put petrol in a V8 Chevy? What right does a country with a 20th of the worlds population have to a quarter of the worlds energy anyway?
Britain's oil doesn't come from Iraq, America's doesn't either, that's not what this war is about, it's about greed not neccessity and even if it wasn't that wouldn't give us the right to take it by force. If your car is running out of petrol you don't have the right to shoot a petrol pump attendent to get some more.
j4bberw0ck
07-Feb-07, 16:58
What right does a country with a 20th of the worlds population have to a quarter of the worlds energy anyway?
How about a fifth of the world's total economic output? :cool:
Accident (1) event that is without apparent cause or unexpected
Accident (2) the unforeseen course of events
Accident (3) a sequence of misfortunes
Accident (4) unintentional act, chance, misfortune
Accidental (1) happening by chance, undesignedly , or unexpectedly
I am not sure that the event can be classed as an accident. It was an unfortunate occurance, but it was a premeditated act outwith their normal terms of engagement.
How about a fifth of the world's total economic output? :cool:
What are you trying to say? Greedy people eat a lot?
They might have a high GDP but they have a $2 billion a day trade defecit to go with it, they consume more than they produce. They are 8.6 trillon dollars in the red, 58% of money lent globally last year went to America, they borrow more than the rest of the world put together.
George Brims
08-Feb-07, 01:51
I do not understand the reaction of certain tabloid papers saying these guys were careless. They asked repeatedly if the people below could possibly be "friendlies". They didn't fire on them for several minutes despite operating under rules of engagement that allowed them to just go straight in. The wrong information they were given is what led to the casualties. Let's just be thankful they didn't shoot straighter. Only one of our boys killed is something of a miracle.
Accident (1) event that is without apparent cause or unexpected
Accident (2) the unforeseen course of events
Accident (3) a sequence of misfortunes
Accident (4) unintentional act, chance, misfortune
Accidental (1) happening by chance, undesignedly , or unexpectedly
I am not sure that the event can be classed as an accident. It was an unfortunate occurance, but it was a premeditated act outwith their normal terms of engagement.
ooks to me as though your definitions of an accident cover the incident vey well - clearly covered by more than one of the definitions!
Has the release of the in-flight video into the Public domain changed your views of 'friendly fire' (i prefer the 'blue on blue' terminology btw) accidents?
I dont see how my view of friendly fire can be changed. someone dies because some people still believe that murder changes things for the better.
being one of those that travelled to london in an attempt to try and prevent the invasion is deeply saddened by ANY mortal loss.
Did anyone else catch the interview with Eldon Anderson, a neighbour of Gus "Skeeter" Kohntopp the pilot involved in this incident?
I would direct you to the You tube footage but the replies are a little bit colourful in their language.
Basically he said, "He is a hero and it's a damn good thing we have heroes like him in the United States to do the fighting that we've got do against terrorists around the world and you guys had better get on board and that whole damn country of yours and along with the rest of Europe, you're going to go merrily sucking your thumb like you did in WWII."
When asked if wartime allies could be more conciliatory he replied, "We don't need your damn help, we need your co-operation, that's all we need out of you guys, and it's hard to even get that, we know you can't shoot, move and communicate, but we sure as hell like to have your co-operation anyway..."
When asked if wartime allies could be more conciliatory he replied, "We don't need your damn help, we need your co-operation, that's all we need out of you guys, and it's hard to even get that, we know you can't shoot, move and communicate, but we sure as hell like to have your co-operation anyway..."
Haw, haw. Had to laugh at this bit, MadPict. Everyone knows that most Americans can't hit the broad side of a barn door. That's why they love all those mega machineguns and Gatling guns - they simply blast the whole vicinity off the planet. :lol:
(Sits back and waits for the next gem from fred....)
Coroner's verdict unlawful killing, a criminal act.
One of us got it right.
How sad that you should gloat at your "victory" over this - I'm sure you must feel very proud of yourself.......
i dont agree with the criminal charges.. as they asked several times if they were friendlies.. and told no..
we are not talking about the rights and wrongs of war.. how its ok.. to kill the "bad guys" and not the "good guys"
the subject is.. were there gross negligence on the pilots part.?
was the pilot at fault?
listening to the video.. i would say no.. who ever was in com. was at fault. it was only after they fired that they were told of the friendlies.
the area was asked about several times.. also they were coming up upon a town, and pilot was wanting to take out the enemy before they could reach teh town..
assuming to save loss of lives..
the pilot actually said lets get them before they can get to the town up ahead.
i very seriously doubt it will be too many years before war comes to our shores. and when it does.. the last time will be a walk in the park compared to what is to come.
we as a people will then have to be strong and fight for our lives.. or go quietly in the night.. like lambs to the slaughter.. the choice will be ours then
at the end of the day thier are no winners in a war.. only loosers.. and survivers.
Wow!
Some serious doomsaying right there. It's a good job I stocked-up on tins of beans. Anyone can survive armageddon with a belly full of duvet-rattlers...
...and maybe a bacon sandwich. [para]
I digress.
Pilots at fault. End of.
sneaks over to pinch those beans.. *grins* i wanna live!!!!
and besides the after effects of the beans are a bio weapon in itself *laughs*
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