View Full Version : reverse racismn?
ok was lookng at yahoo news and saw this! i def am not racist! but isnt this a bit ridiculous! shouldnt they be trying to better all children!
and teachers?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn1374262.html
When I was at Thurso High, my second year science class was girls-only,which I believe was in order to encourage girls to be more involved in science class, rather than be intimidated or cowed by the boys. That class was definitely an improvement on first year, where the boys would 'take over' any experimental work. Since I left school many years ago, I have no idea if the single-gender classes were maintained or abandoned, but it certainly suited me.
Trevor Phillips said that many black boys are suffering from a culture where it is not cool to be clever. The underachievement by black boys is shocking, and has been ignored for too long.
I don't see any reason why we shouldn't try initiatives to encourage more involvement by different groups at school. I hardly think it to be a racist policy. It's not as though the separate schooling of black boys will have a detrimental effect on the schooling of other children, after all.
i think it is.. exspecially where it says to pay black teachers more to come and teach.. yes i agree with the improvment but they shouldnt seregate them that will just make it worst.. not in the learning sence perchance but in the social sence... seregation of races is not a good idea
Bobinovich
07-Mar-05, 17:29
ok was lookng at yahoo news and saw this! i def am not racist! but isnt this a bit ridiculous! shouldnt they be trying to better all children!
and teachers?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn1374262.html
Yeah I thought this was definately OTT too. However it's probably gonna happen and it'd be anti-PC to say anything against it these days, wouldn't it?
I dunno but your average IC1 must feel as though they're bocoming the minority these days. Has PC turned the table?
i think it is..
Sorry, could you just clarify - are you saying that you think this is a racist policy?
Are you trying to tell me that you think that the massive underachievement by black boys is okay? Would you want us to ignore it if it was a massive underachievement by white girls?
seregation of races is not a good idea
Trevor Phillips is not arguing for separate schools or separate school buses for black boys. This is not racial segregation as such. His proposal could be a useful tool for teachers, to aid them in the teaching of these kids. Just as the single-gender science classes at Thurso High were a useful tool for teachers there.
Since there's no issue of detriment for white kids, what's the problem?
Caledonia
07-Mar-05, 17:45
There will of course be a great detriment to the academically motivated of these kids, being stuck in a class where the overall bar is lowered by disruption and lack of motivation.
If we are to segregate inschools it should only be based on ability levels, nothing else. It is ridiculous to suggest doing so on a supposed racial basis.
It is racism, plain and simple.
;)
I heard an interview with Trevor Phillips on the radio this morning explaining himself a little better than this article does.
He has recently been to St Louis and saw an education programme there that is helping the local black boys by teaching them English in separate classes (not separate schools). The results were staggering (I believe that basic literacy increased by around 16% under the scheme). The scheme also saw the school encouraging black fathers to take a more active role in their sons' lives and they found that this pushed the children up several grades in their classwork.
The suggestion he made wasn't that black boys should be taken out of mixed schooling and put in their own, segregated education system… simply that the programme in St Louis be looked at by the government and lessons be learned from its success.
Anyway, it all seems quite sensible to me. Skin-colour aside; if somebody pointed out to you that the vast majority of boys from Spring Park were struggling with basic literacy when they reached High School and then suggested that they be given their own English class tailored to their specific needs, would you object? Why/Why not?
i think it is because.. we should not only be raising the bar for certain students but all students.. what about the kids from low income family and things like that? All classes of children should be taught and if it comes to this why not make classrooms smaller and do more one on one with the students? make it mandatory for parents to become envolved, but do not think they should be seperating the students.. are they saying white kids are smarter than blacks or blacks are better than any others? so they need special attention? all children need equal attention in education.. and that it should be above reproach!
Caledonia
07-Mar-05, 17:58
I would object for one.
If there was a trend for kids from Burnside to have reading problems, then they should be attended to along with the kids who had the same problems wherever they are from. It makes no sense at all to target them based on their goegraphical location.
This is a complete 'no-brainer' as the Americans might say.
;)
There will of course be a great detriment to the academically motivated of these kids, being stuck in a class where the overall bar is lowered by disruption and lack of motivation.
I would be interested to find out if it can actually have a beneficial effect on the achievements of black boys. If they are placed in classes full of undermotivated and underachieving peers, I find it difficult to see how they can be encouraged to be less dismissive of education.
It occurs to me that, if anything, this tactic may have a beneficial effect on the other school pupils who are not placed in these classes.
If we are to segregate inschools it should only be based on ability levels, nothing else. It is ridiculous to suggest doing so on a supposed racial basis.
Do you believe it was sexist for Thurso High to have single-gender classes?
It is racism, plain and simple.
Somebody please explain to me how it merits being dismissed as racist, because I'm clearly missing you're getting. Just because it is dealing with the achievement levels (or lack thereof) of black boys does not, in and of itself, make it racist.
Racism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racist)
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
"We need more male black teachers, tempting them with extra cash if necessary.
I agree with that but it should apply to all ethnic groups so the level of teacher skills can be maintained or improved. A few years ago, people could get £6000 for doing teacher training, what nonsense, the scheme achieved nothing, it just gave people who haven't got the heart for teaching the platform and the means to take up positions in education.
Just a small aside from the thread, my wife is a teacher in Caithness and she has to teach a pupil on a one-to-one basis because of the child's violent behavior to other pupils. On the face of things, he is getting rewarded for bad behavior and the school is not using their resources (my missus) optimally.
I agree that black boys should not get preferential treatment just because of colour. I think if a black boy shows exceptional brightness then he should get extra help. But sadly we are in a society that does not reward people on ability anymore.
are they saying white kids are smarter than blacks or blacks are better than any others? so they need special attention? all children need equal attention in education.. and that it should be above reproach!
No, the suggestion is based on the belief that all children have equal potential (which is precisely why there's nothing racist about it). It's then about acknowledging that black boys are underachieving, despite having equal potential. From there, it's about acknowledging that black boys are being failed by the education system and proposing ideas for addressing those failures.
The notion of "equal attention" doesn't come into it, nor should it.
Caledonia
07-Mar-05, 18:11
If it was the case that ALL children from a particular background had the SAME problems, then there would be some merit in distinguishing them for the purpose of providing a more effective educational approach.
This is not the case, therefore you have a clear case of a differentiation being made purely on the basis of a supposed racial difference.
That, my friend, is racism.
Do what you want with the argument from here on, but that is a fact.
Yes, it probably was sexist.
;)
philupmaboug
07-Mar-05, 18:12
Black ! White ! Green ! what does it matter? I thought we were trying to break down barriers not put them in pllace. The teacher/rector should be trying to sort out the disruptive pupils in classes so that everyone is encouraged to learn and that to learn is to progress into the future. More disipline in schools would attract more teachers so smaller classes and more 1 on 1 teaching in my opinion.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Does the recommendation come as a result of an assumption that being black will lead to poorer academic success? I doubt it, there are deep social factors at play here. But it is up to the education system to show fairness and making special arrangements on the basis of colour is not fair.
Just a small aside from the thread, my wife is a teacher in Caithness and she has to teach a pupil on a one-to-one basis because of the child's violent behavior to other pupils. On the face of things, he is getting rewarded for bad behavior and the school is not using their resources (my missus) optimally.
As adults we would regard this as a reward for bad behaviour, because we rate it based on the excessive resources being directed at this kid. I doubt the kid feels that the close monitoring he receives is a reward.
When I was at school I was always grateful when the little eejits were removed from the classes I was in. If it meant they were taught on a one-to-one basis, so be it. I could get a hell of a lot more done when I didn’t have idiots like them in my class.
I agree that black boys should not get preferential treatment just because of colour. I think if a black boy shows exceptional brightness then he should get extra help. But sadly we are in a society that does not reward people on ability anymore.
1) It’s not preferential treatment. Where did this idea come from?
2) No, we’re in a society that has, for far too long, been prepared to leave groups of underachieving kids to rot, without doing a thing to address it. The point is that the potential for ability and achievement is there, but we’ve been ignoring it.
And hey ho, any attempts to address it are denounced as racist.
Does the recommendation come as a result of an assumption that being black will lead to poorer academic success? I doubt it, there are deep social factors at play here. But it is up to the education system to show fairness and making special arrangements on the basis of colour is not fair.
No, it comes as a result of the fact that black boys are underachieving compared with other kids. There's no assumption that there is any inherent difference in potential based on skin colour (to assume that would be racist).
I absolutely agree that there are social factors impinging on the achievements of black boys. Do we continue to throw our hands up in the air and ignore it (as we already have done for several decades)?
Fairness would be about giving all kids equal opportunities to achieve their potential. The education system is failing to provide equal opportunities, and so it should address its shortcomings.
If it was the case that ALL children from a particular background had the SAME problems, then there would be some merit in distinguishing them for the purpose of providing a more effective educational approach
But nobody suggested that this should be applied to ALL black boys regardless of their academic achievements – merely that it should be an option for those who are underachieving.
2) No, we’re in a society that has, for far too long, been prepared to leave groups of underachieving kids to rot, without doing a thing to address it. The point is that the potential for ability and achievement is there, but we’ve been ignoring it.
And hey ho, any attempts to address it are denounced as racist.
Well put.
This is not the case, therefore you have a clear case of a differentiation being made purely on the basis of a supposed racial difference.
That, my friend, is racism.
Just for clarity, in case you missed it, the differentiation is not being made on the basis of a supposed racial difference. After all, there is no inherent difference in academic potential based on skin colour.
It's being proposed on the grounds that black boys do not do as well academically as other kids, that they are being failed by the education system, and that the education system should do something about it.
1) It’s not preferential treatment. Where did this idea come from?
Lets turn it around shall we?
I said before that bright kids should get preferential treatment to bring them on further, i still believe that, black or white kids.
So do you think it to be fair to say 'White kids should get one to one teaching to bring them on further because they achieve consistantly better results than black kids'?
Of course, now that would be racist wouldn't it?
Black kids should get extra help because they need extra help not because they are black!!!!
i agree with putting slower pupils in seprate classes than the main stream where they can get more one on one.. and special teaching but i do not agree that it should be .. all one race/ culture of students.. that is racist.. what about other students who are having teh same problems should they not be able to have seprate classes as well to get the advantage as the others?
the idea of the seprate classes is a good one.. children should be on a learning curve.. and put into groups of other children learning at their pace.. so that they can have the added advantage of not being left behind.. what i am arguing is that ALL STUDENTS and not just a select sect should get this... these black carabian kids are not the only ones with a language and culture barrier and many that dont have those barriers are sadly lacking in education... so yes what is good for the goose is good for the gander
Do we continue to throw our hands up in the air and ignore it (as we already have done for several decades)?
I absolutely agree with you we should do something, but my other point is we shouldn't leave that sole responsibility at the door of the education system while we all turn the other cheek, it is stretched enough. Do you appreciated the investment in education that would be needed to take on such a task of one to one teaching for all black kids that need it?
We need to tackle the disenfranchisement of black kids in British society first, then they will achieve better results at school.
I said before that bright kids should get preferential treatment to bring them on further, i still believe that, black or white kids.
So do you think it to be fair to say 'White kids should get one to one teaching to bring them on further because they achieve consistantly better results than black kids'?
Of course, now that would be racist wouldn't it?
The education system has both limited resources and a duty to bring all pupils to a minimum standard of education. Nobody should be leaving school unable to read or write. With limited resources, it is appropriate that the education system should address the areas in which it is failing. With limited resources, it is unable to provide one to one teaching on a broad scale, so is unable to ‘bring on’ bright kids. This has absolutely nothing to do with race.
My point about it not being preferential treatment is because nobody has suggested that black kids should be taught in snazzy new science labs, or get the best textbooks, or that they should get one to one teaching. It’s only been suggested that their classes should be segregated.
Black kids should get extra help because they need extra help not because they are black!!!!
Now we’re just down to semantics. It’s being proposed that black boys should be taught separately precisely because they, as a group, are underachieving. Fact. It’s not being proposed singularly on the grounds of their skin colour.
.. and special teaching but i do not agree that it should be .. all one race/ culture of students.. that is racist..
Who said anything about special teaching? I've quoted the definition of racist above - please explain what's racist about segregated teaching to address underachievement?
I absolutely agree with you we should do something, but my other point is we shouldn't leave that sole responsibility at the door of the education system while we all turn the other cheek, it is stretched enough. Do you appreciated the investment in education that would be needed to take on such a task of one to one teaching for all black kids that need it?
Who said anything about one to one teaching? Trevor Phillips is proposing that black boys should be taught in groups separately from other kids who do not have such a poor achievement record.
We need to tackle the disenfranchisement of black kids in British society...
Absolutely.
... first
No, it is appropriate to tackle this via different methods in conjunction, only part of which is explicitly provided by teachers in the classroom. Please see jjc's first post in this thread about the full scale of methods Trevor Phillips wishes to adopt.
If we refuse to address the education of black boys until their socio-economic factors have been addressed, we will fail yet another generation of black boys.
.. and special teaching but i do not agree that it should be .. all one race/ culture of students.. that is racist..
Who said anything about special teaching? I've quoted the definition of racist above - please explain what's racist about segregated teaching to address underachievement?but its not sergated teaching as a whole the whole point is that it is a certain class and race of students that are being seregated.. if they perchance took ALL students who had the same problems and seregated them then I would be the first to say yes this is great.. but not just one group because their scores as a whole are lower.. what needs to be done is all students that are in this situation should be taught seprately .. i have no prob whatsoever as children with learning difficulties being taught sepratley.. just that it should not be one sect.. but all children with the learning dif.
also i think it is racist to offer black teachers more pay than others.. just as it is wrong to pay men more than women for doing the same job.. ever heard of equality?
If we refuse to address the education of black boys until their socio-economic factors have been addressed, we will fail yet another generation of black boys.[/quote]
ok what about all the other children we are failing? are the black boys the only ones who need help and what about the girls?
also i think it is racist to offer black teachers more pay than others.. just as it is wrong to pay men more than women for doing the same job.. ever heard of equality?
Do we really want to get into this? Maths and Science graduates have been offered additional money to go into teaching. English and History graduates have not.
Maths and Science graduates are more likely to be male. English and History graduates are more likely to be female.
It could be argued that the policy of paying golden handshakes to particular graduates on the basis of the subjects they teach is an example of indirect sexism. Do we jump up and down screaming about the golden handshakes offered to, potentially, more men than women? No we do not. Why? Because we recognise that the education system would be failing our children if it fails to recruit sufficient Maths and Science teachers, for which there is a renowned recruitment problem.
[/i]In the same way[/i], it could be argued that it would be appropriate for the education system to consider various methods of improving the education record of black boys, one of which might be to have more black role models, and one method of reaching this may be to offer incentive payments/golden handshakes to black teachers.
Why not have the seperate class for underachievers whatever their race or creed, and not single them out as 'black boys'?
I am sure there must be soome white under achievers as well who would benifit from the extra help. I don't agree with the way they are doing it at all.
Caledonia
07-Mar-05, 19:23
Could I make it any simpler?
When any of a group of child is segregated into another class purely on the basis of their background, in this case based on their 'race', this is racism.
For those who argue this is not the proposal, I ask you how you could possibly end up with a class full of kids from only one background, were some of them not being streamed out against their actual ability level?
I can't see why this is so difficult to understand.
You cannot dress this idea up in any other way.
It is racism, and because it happens to have been shown to positively impact on short term achievement in academic terms is scant justification.
Where was the control group of students streamed on ability, with similar interventions being made into getting their parents involved etc.?
If the differentiation is made purely on ‘ability’, and this happens to result in a class with a larger percentage of children from one background or another, then this is an acceptable means of addressing the collective needs of these kids.
Of course, it is par for the course on this discussion board that one gets patronised with dictionary quotations and so on from those who feel they are in possession of a better understanding of the issues than anyone who dares to disagree.
Such is life.
;)
Caledonia
07-Mar-05, 19:29
As far as paying more to get more teachers from a certain background...
Without going into whether or not there should be a need for teachers based on their background, one observation.
Where you have a shortfall in a praticular niche, you have to pay more to attract staff to fill it.
That is purely a function of free market economy, unfortunate as it is.
Your average academically motivated kid from a background of disadvantage is going to want to become a lawyer, doctor or city banker, not a teacher.
Money and position talks.
;)
The education system has both limited resources and a duty to bring all pupils to a minimum standard of education.
The goverment has a policy of inclusion which forces schools to take children of all abilities and behaviour problems if their parents apply to have their child on a school role. So you think this is great, just try teaching a group of 30 kids some of which are so disruptive that the education of all is failed. Schools have a limited budget and a vast percentage is spent on Special Needs, go to any school and you'll find a special needs base working their socks off trying to get pupils through an education system that years ago they would have been allowed to leave and get work , there is never enough money or staff for these kids because with the best will in the world they should never have been in mainstream education in the first place. and alot of parents do not want their children in a Special School cause of the perscieved stigma. The end result is kids with special needs, who know their not as academically gifted as their peers fail to achieve and have low self estem as a result, resulting often in behavour problems and the average and above average kids struggle on, working with dedicated teachers after school (teachers doing unpaid overtime)if they want more one to one attention.
Some kids are not academicaaly minded and thats ok we need everybody to do different jobs and feel valued members of society. Placing so much emphasis on RESULTS is not the answer. Some black boys do poorly, not because the schools are not doing their jobs, but because they have poor role models, wither that be adsentee fathers, gun toting rappers, pugnacious footballers, the get rich famous for no talent its ok to be fick celebraties and drug taking musicians.How can we make education cool, and being an achiever a good thing when so many of the people that kids see on tv etc think that teachers are rubbish and fail the kids, Society is failing the teachers by running them down saying they are failing. Society is us we need to change and show respect for people what ever their job is. The goverment will want to continue with inclusion cause it sounds P.C. but its just cause its cheap and its easier to say schools and teachers are failing than society is
ok what about all the other children we are failing? are the black boys the only ones who need help and what about the girls?
I can’t help but think you’ve missed a basic fact about the education system and how it relates to this issue.
If we looked at the results for children and found that each ethnic and gender grouping had roughly the same percentage of high achievers and roughly the same percentage of under achievers then to single out the under achievers of one particular group for special treatment would be unfair.
But when we look at the results for children across the different ethnic and gender groups we don’t see anything close to a level playing-field. Instead we see that black boys aren’t as likely to succeed as other groups… in fact we see that they are far more likely to leave school illiterate, ill-educated and unemployable.
So when somebody stands up and points the gross inequality in the education system out to you, perhaps you should sit for a moment and think about just what that means. Sure, in an ideal world we’d like to have classes of less than five pupils each with teachers who aren’t so overburdened with paperwork that they just don’t have the time to see to the precise needs of each individual student… but we live in the real world where people don’t want to pay more tax. This is a tried and tested programme that has helped the worst affected children in another education system… all that Trevor Phillips has asked is that we take a look and see if there are any lessons we can learn.
If we have to start somewhere, isn’t helping those with the greatest need a pretty good place… or do you prefer that we widen the gap even farther before we look to closing it?
When any of a group of child is segregated into another class purely on the basis of their background, in this case based on their 'race', this is racism.
Once again for those at the back… nobody has suggested that all black boys be taken out of their English class and sent to learn basic literacy. It has merely been suggested that taking those who are under-achieving and giving them specially-tailored lessons will improve their learning. That’s not putting somebody in a segregated class because of their ethnicity, it is recognising that the social environments that these boys grow up in means that a greater percentage of them will need additional help.
For those who argue this is not the proposal…
which it clearly is not
…I ask you how you could possibly end up with a class full of kids from only one background, were some of them not being streamed out against their actual ability level?
Sorry… you’re not making much sense there. Are you saying that it would be impossible to stream out those black boys who are under-achieving without also streaming out those black boys who do have a decent standard of education? You don’t think looking at their exam results might help there?
Where was the control group of students streamed on ability, with similar interventions being made into getting their parents involved etc.?
Ah, so you’re suggesting that the 16% improvement in basic literacy was due to a sudden evolutionary shift that magically made them all better students?
Of course, it is par for the course on this discussion board that one gets patronised with dictionary quotations and so on from those who feel they are in possession of a better understanding of the issues than anyone who dares to disagree.
Damn, but all those annoying facts get in the way of a good policy-bashing, don’t they? :roll:
but the simple fact is even though its a great idea to help the disavantaged boys.. the thing is it should not just be the one minority.. all disavantaged kids with the same problem should be helped in the same way just not one group... i understand that not all of the black boys are being taken out of mainstream classes but is it fair or right that only those of a certain background culture should get this advantage?
Schools have a limited budget and a vast percentage is spent on Special Needs, go to any school and you'll find a special needs base working their socks off trying to get pupils through an education system that years ago they would have been allowed to leave and get work , there is never enough money or staff for these kids because with the best will in the world they should never have been in mainstream education in the first place.
As anybody, regardless of whether they require special assistance or not, can leave school and get a job the age of sixteen, I can only assume that what you are actually suggesting here is that children with special needs should be denied the chance of an education but should, instead, be kept home where they aren’t a burden on society?
Some kids are not academicaaly minded and thats ok
This is only relevant in the context of this thread if you are suggesting that black boys are somehow genetically predisposed towards academic underachievement. That’s not what you are suggesting, is it?
Some black boys do poorly, not because the schools are not doing their jobs, but because they have poor role models, wither that be adsentee fathers, gun toting rappers, pugnacious footballers, the get rich famous for no talent its ok to be fick celebraties and drug taking musicians.
Wow! We’re going all out on the stereotyping today, eh? Couldn’t think of any positive black role models?
The goverment will want to continue with inclusion cause it sounds P.C.
What, exactly, are you proposing we have instead of inclusion… exclusion?
but the simple fact is even though its a great idea to help the disavantaged boys.. the thing is it should not just be the one minority..
In the case of academic achievement (or rather the lack of it), black boys are very much the majority.
all disavantaged kids with the same problem should be helped in the same way just not one group...
I agree – it would be great to help all disadvantaged kids with the same problem to achieve in education… but that’s not going to happen right now, is it? ‘Education! Education! Education!’ was a great slogan, but it would have been even better had the nation stood up and said sure, raise my taxes by a penny in the pound and make everything better. They didn’t so we need to fix things a little at a time and I ask again; is there a better place to start than with those with the greatest need?
I think we should face up to the undeniable fact that education is a two way thing. Sometimes I think it is naive of the general public that if certain kids are not achieving then they assume the school or education system has failed them. Not so in my opinion, I think the teachers bend over backwards for the kids, but for whatever reason, if a kid does not want to learn then he/she will not learn. IOW the kids have failed the school.
Now as a neutral-value observation, jjc mentioned role models for black kids. There are quite a few in the sporting, kids tv and music world, good and bad, mainly bad but in an academic sense I can only think of very few, Trevor MacDonald, Jon from Brainiac, spring to mind but now I am struggling. You have got to admit there are very few. This just demonstrates the mountain that the BBC and ITV have got to climb to bring black academic role models to our screens to make knowlege and geekism cool.
I know it is unwise to generalise but this is my general impression that a large number of black kids dwell too much on a 'noble to be thick ghetto image'(and white kids as well, but gangster rapper is a black culture in origin, isn't it?).
This is a really tricky one.
I think its important to distinguish the area we are talking about here. As i understand it what we are talking about is underachievement not lack of ability. Black boys are NOT lacking in ability as a group but they are underachieving as a group. To say they were lacking in ability because they are black would be a racist comment. These boys as a group are underachieving. They have the same potential as all children but as a group black boys are not fulfilling that potential. This suggests that there is something not happening with black children that is happening with other children. This is the issue that needs to be addressed.
Now.... to address this issue do we look at girls? See what the reasons are for underachieving in females and apply any solutions from our research to black boys? of course we dont. Do we look at the under achievement of fat middle aged women who like to type on message boards and apply those findings to the black boys struggling with achieving success in school? No we need to look at the particular needs of this particular group and we need to find solutions that address those needs. Hence the focus on black boys as opposed to girls and fat middle aged women.
Caledonia you ask "how you could possibly end up with a class full of kids from only one background?"
Underachievement in schools it is not simply a matter of race. However areas where there is deprivation and a risk of social exclusion are likely to have a high proportion of children from ethnic groups as i understand it. At the worst risk of underachievement are black boys. Stepping into many schools and selecting a number of underachievers is likely to pull children from a similar background.In this case Black and male because as all the research shows these children are not achieving. However in wick we wouldnt have a class full of black boys but we might very well have a number of children with a particular type of background or from a particular area.
I think it is clear from this discussion that the education system is failing many black teenage boys. Note i say the system and not the teachers. The system is not funded enough and is not having the success that we surely want for all our children. Rheghead you say tackle the social problems affecting black children first - how else can we do this other than through education? This is the place where we can challenge society's stereotypes and push for excellence for all, anything that encourages our children to achieve their potential is worth a shot. Children can be anything they want to be and do anything they want to do. This is the message that should be being sold to our children - all of them
Finally, i would wonder why anyone would look at somethig that is improving the achievement of young people and say NOT to try it. Surely we should be doing anything we can to remove this inequality in our education system. Cos thats what it is an inequality
Rheghead you say tackle the social problems affecting black children first - how else can we do this other than through education? This is the place where we can challenge society's stereotypes and push for excellence for all, anything that encourages our children to achieve their potential is worth a shot. Children can be anything they want to be and do anything they want to do. This is the message that should be being sold to our children - all of them
I am sorry squidge but these proposals smell too much of segregation for my liking. And we all know how that ended up in the US. You say tackle those problems through education, how does this educate? Surely kids need to get together not be segregated?
That Phillips guy also wants to deny access to black kids to their fathers. How utter rubbish. Has this Phillips guy lost the plot? So far he wants to segregate blacks from whites, now he wants to deny those kids from their only closest male role model!
The end of the article clearly states that the current status quo is working. Black kids are improving in schools compared with the average.
Phillips has scored an own goal on this one.
I am sorry squidge but these proposals smell too much of segregation for my liking. And we all know how that ended up in the US.
In this particular situation it resulted in a 16% increase in basic literacy and numeracy.
That Phillips guy also wants to deny access to black kids to their fathers.
If you’d heard him interviewed this morning (or yesterday morning I suppose) you’d realise what an utter fabrication your statement is.
He doesn’t want to deny contact between children and fathers, he wants the government to consider the project in St Louis where, after black boys’ fathers were actively encouraged to come to the school to have group meetings (I think he called them “Dads’ Doughnuts”) they lost many of their inhibitions regarding showing an interest in the sons and their sons’ schooling and the grades of the children went up (along with their contact with their fathers).
It may work academically but I doubt if it would work politically, ie promote good race relations in schools. It also may promote white supremacy ideology if black kids are seen to be put in the 'black remedial class', and don't presume to lecture me that that is nonsense because I know how cruel kids can be.
I think the current model is working albeit slowly, Phillips' proposals seem a step backwards.
He doesn’t want to deny contact between children and fathers, he wants the government to consider the project in St Louis where, after black boys’ fathers were actively encouraged to come to the school to have group meetings (I think he called them “Dads’ Doughnuts”) they lost many of their inhibitions regarding showing an interest in the sons and their sons’ schooling and the grades of the children went up (along with their contact with their fathers).
It doesn't say that in the original posting? Bad reporting if you are right?
Complex issue indeed, and in principle it seems that the solution proposed would be educationally good, however I think it may well cause more social problems and enhance the racial divide.
Is the education system failing black boys? All people withing the education system surely get the same opportunties whether they be white, black, male or female - the underachievemtn is surely more to do with what goes on outside school in their family and social life?
If the argument was made by a white man, saying that the education of white boys would be enhanced by putting them is classes seperate from their black schoolmates it would be deemed racist.
Bad reporting if you are right?
Indeed. As I said, his interview on the radio yesterday morning was a lot more enlightening.
I am sorry squidge but these proposals smell too much of segregation for my liking.
Dont be sorry . This solution makes me feel uncomfortable, however 16% is a huge increase and so it is worth examining more closely. If it is found to work then why would we not try it?
It would be intersting to know if any study was done on the performance of those "left behind" in the other class - did their standards improve?
I think the more likely reason for Trevor Phillips' recommendations is that he has had an 'all expenses-paid jolly' to the US and now he is having to justify the trip but he hasn't put enough thought into imposing an American-style system onto British kids.
misschief
08-Mar-05, 13:53
I think perhaps the more important issue is what the kids think. There are a couple of things I think need to be addressed.
1. will the kids who are segregated understand/appreciate that they are being 'segregated' for the benefit of their education.
2. will this 'segregation' prompt feelings of racial bad feeling towards or from the kids and their peers.
3. will other groups who underachieve be rewarded the same treatment
I personnally think that the intention behind this idea is sound but there are some very real problems that must be addressed.
As previously mentioned these 'black' kids do not think it is cool to be clever ( my opinion is that a large proprotion of kids share this opinion), I believe that these same kids think school is a waste of time, my understanding is that they are perfectly capable of applying themselves and achieving the grades of their own back. I think that a relatively large proportion of these kids are not going to appreciate being separated from the group as such and may well believe incorrectly that this is simply because they are black or poor or from a single parent family. Any number of reasons, the point being it may aggravate any feelings of isolations that they already feel.
Secondly take the 'white' kid with the absent or dis-interested father. He/she is intelligent but unmotivated or may think that being clever is outside their reach due to their circumstances. This kid will have this opinion strengthened when a 'black kid' in a similar circumstance is given extra time and attention in order to help them and raise them above the lifestyle of their parents.
This could easily lead to animosity and the view in the white kid that the black kid is getting extra simply as a result of skin colour. This then aggravates the racism problem which exists.
There are many social groups which do not excel at school academically or vocationally. All of these groups need to be identified and given the same added advantages. This in my opinion is the only way to minimise the adverse effects.
The whole subject is racism at it's very worst...because it's authority supported. No wonder the likes of the BNP are enjoying an upsurge of support.
Highland Laddie
08-Mar-05, 22:43
White kids this, Black kids that.
what about the yellow, red, brown etc etc
i think black and white is just a little negative
you need more colour to see the whole picture :p
Highland Laddie, well said. Its well known research boys on a whole have a larger statistic of learning difficulties. I think this and was said before its just a politician trying to justify an expense paid trip to the US and try and Americanise our education system. What about just improving our own, or maybe back tracking to the past where there wasn't as much bad behaviour and children respected teachers and listened and tryed their best. I would never have talked to an adult never mind a teacher the way they do today. So there is no need to segregate black boys and cause another racist argument.
Enough said!!!!
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