View Full Version : Margaret Thatcher
cptdodger
08-Apr-13, 12:53
Just been reported on BBC News 24 - Margaret Thatcher died this morning.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155
suppose its end of a era for most of you now eh??
Gosh. This feels like quite a historical moment.
Oooh, do we get a day off?
cptdodger
08-Apr-13, 13:33
They have just said that her funeral will have the same status as the Queen Mother's or Diana's. Although at her own request, she will not lie in state. I worked for Tesco's at the time of Diana's funeral, I remember because it was my last day before maternity leave, and I know all the shops were closed until 2pm. As for the Queen Mother's funeral, I was working that day, so I do'nt know what will happen with this one.
I'm not going to celebrate anyone dying but I certainly won't mourn either. An exceptionally important person in terms of British history even if it was all for the wrong reasons.
Argh, the media and internet are going to be unbearable for the next few days.
Obviously her funeral should be privatised as the private sector is more profitable. We don't want any more vile products of the welfare state!
M Swanson
08-Apr-13, 13:43
I was sad to learn of the passing of Margaret Hilda. She was a woman of great courage and wisdom, who did her utmost to instill a passionate pride in Briton's for their country, as well as being respected and welcomed throughout the world. RIP MH, after a job well done.
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 13:44
I was sad to learn of the passing of Margaret Hilda. She was a woman of great courage and wisdom, who did her utmost to instill a passionate pride in Briton's for their country, as well as being respected and welcomed throughout the world. RIP MH, after a job well done.
How much were you paid to post this propaganda !
Obviously her funeral should be privatised as the private sector is more profitable. We don't want any more vile products of the welfare state!
piratelassie
08-Apr-13, 14:01
Life is a compromise, that woman did'nt know the meaning of the word. She wo'nt be missed by me.
I don't think CNN got the memo they're running this picture with her obituary:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHVCdg-CIAA1NI2.jpg:large
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 14:05
Seriously, a state funeral, St Pauls Cathedral, full military honours....she was only a politician, and a divisive one at that, I mean come on !!!
I was sad to learn of the passing of Margaret Hilda. She was a woman of great courage and wisdom, who did her utmost to instill a passionate pride in Briton's for their country, as well as being respected and welcomed throughout the world. RIP MH, after a job well done.
Sorry M Swanson, got to disagree with you on this one, I for one had no time for the woman.
Seriously, a state funeral, St Pauls Cathedral, full military honours....she was only a politician, and a divisive one at that, I mean come on !!!
One of a small handful of great military leaders. I'm sure our armed forces would want the opportunity to pay respects.
My my, an 87 year old woman dies and the Nation (or a particular part of it) descends into the same choreographed grief that we had to endure after Prince Charles's first wife died.
Just managed to avoid most of the sycophantic, hour-long tripe on the BBC at 1; BBC Scotland had a much more pragmatic, brief and truthful 3 minutes. This woman was poison for Scotland. However we should be grateful that,with her policies, she destroyed any vestige of the Tory party in Scotland.
Her lasting legacy will include the debacle we now have with the bedroom tax as she initiated the selling-off of the local authority housing stock in Scotland, resulting in huge shortages of suitable homes. That and the destruction of mining throughout Great Britain.
Any other legacies worth mentioning?
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 14:23
I was sad to learn of the passing of Margaret Hilda. She was a woman of great courage and wisdom, who did her utmost to instill a passionate pride in Briton's for their country, as well as being respected and welcomed throughout the world. RIP MH, after a job well done.
Sorry I thought that you meant Hilda Ogden from Corrie
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 14:27
A conviction politician who should have been convicted herself lol
My my, an 87 year old woman dies and the Nation (or a particular part of it) descends into the same choreographed grief that we had to endure after Prince Charles's first wife died.
Just managed to avoid most of the sycophantic, hour-long tripe on the BBC at 1; BBC Scotland had a much more pragmatic, brief and truthful 3 minutes. This woman was poison for Scotland. However we should be grateful that,with her policies, she destroyed any vestige of the Tory party in Scotland.
Her lasting legacy will include the debacle we now have with the bedroom tax as she initiated the selling-off of the local authority housing stock in Scotland, resulting in huge shortages of suitable homes. That and the destruction of mining throughout Great Britain.
Any other legacies worth mentioning?
Lots and lots of Scots people owning their own homes. The end of the cold war. The retention of the Falklands by the Falklanders. The end of tyranny in the trade union movement. Gosh I'll go and write a long list if you like? The birth of the labour party in it's current form, (probably the Lib Dems too.)
One of a small handful of great military leaders. I'm sure our armed forces would want the opportunity to pay respects.
I do not think the 255 who were killed during the Falklands war will be able to or want to pay their respects, thousand of personell went down there with their redundancy notices in their pockets. How many were able to cash them in? She cut the troops, that eventually she used to boost her own standing
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 14:32
Lots and lots of Scots people owning their own homes. The end of the cold war. The retention of the Falklands by the Falklanders. The end of tyranny in the trade union movement. Gosh I'll go and write a long list if you like? The birth of the labour party in it's current form, (probably the Lib Dems too.)
Fine, your list will make good reading !
Lots and lots of Scots people owning their own homes. The end of the cold war. The retention of the Falklands by the Falklanders. The end of tyranny in the trade union movement. Gosh I'll go and write a long list if you like? The birth of the labour party in it's current form, (probably the Lib Dems too.)
She was friends with and supported mass-murdering dictators such as Pinochet (Chile) and Suharto (Indonesia) as well as supporting the Apartheid regime in South Africa whilst dismissing Nelson Mandela as a terrorist. The Hilsborough cover-up, etc.
And I'm sure the current generation are equally grateful that she invested in so much affordable housing to replace the government property that she sold off... oh wait she didn't.
I can write my own list (with proper references and citations, if required).
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 14:35
One of a small handful of great military leaders. I'm sure our armed forces would want the opportunity to pay respects.
Well you've nailed your colours firmly to the mast eh !
She was friends with and supported mass-murdering dictators such as Pinochet (Chile) and Suharto (Indonesia) as well as supporting the Apartheid regime in South Africa whilst dismissing Nelson Mandela as a terrorist. The Hilsborough cover-up, etc.
And I'm sure the current generation are equally grateful that she invested in so much affordable housing to replace the government property that she sold off... oh wait she didn't.
I can write my own list (with proper references and citations, if required).
Knock yourself out. Really!
The end of the cold war.
The end of the Cold War..... methinks you're wearing the rose-tinted specs
The end of tyranny in the trade union movement.
Should that not be The end of workers' rights? Not to forget the rise of the 'Me, me, me' culture we enjoy now.
The birth of the labour party in it's current form, (probably the Lib Dems too.)
You mean the birth of the OTHER Tory party?
Well you've nailed your colours firmly to the mast eh !
Blimey, I've just accused you in another thread of not paying attention. I didn't realise how true it was :lol:
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 14:39
Knock yourself out. Really!
Thought you did and had just come round !! Its acceptably recognised that she supported Pinochet, apartheid etc, facts, just as you quote "acceptable" facts ie council house sales, trade union reform, the spur to redefine Labour all accepted facts etc, why dont you accept a balance here instead of using Nelsons eye !!
I don't think this is one of those JFK or Lady Diana moments. In reality, many people who, when asked if they could remember where they were when they discovered Margaret Thatcher was dead, may well have replied:-
"Why of course I can, I was standing over her body holding a smoking gun"
I see the hypocrisy wagon is gathering speed already, with Tony Blair describing her as "A towering politician"
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 14:47
Blimey, I've just accused you in another thread of not paying attention. I didn't realise how true it was :lol:
Yes you know the truth as always, oh all mighty, all seeing, unforgiving one : you've given me the best laugh in years : "one of a handful of great military leaders" ( along with the dads army platoon captain ? ) lol lol
There's an army of flying monkeys just turned up at the job centre looking for a new boss.
There's a petition to say NO to a taxpayer funded funeral: https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/45966
Let people pay for it privately if they want, but don't expect the taxpayer to stump up to put it in the ground.
I do not think the 255 who were killed during the Falklands war will be able to or want to pay their respects, thousand of personell went down there with their redundancy notices in their pockets. How many were able to cash them in? She cut the troops, that eventually she used to boost her own standing
Sorry G. I really don't know how to respond to this. Are you saying we should have let the Falklands remain in Argentine hands? Or that we as a nation should not have the right to vary the strength of the Armed forces? Virtually every bit of kit sent was obsolete. Luckily, crewed, manned and operated by the most magnificent body of men and women.
Personally I'd have said to hell with it and nuked BA into a glass carpark. (That is why I'm not allowed to operate dangerous machinery. :eek:)
The meeja will no doubt try to whip up a frenzy of emotion....
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 15:01
Bit harsh eh ! Televise it, flog adverts, ringtones, DVD's, t shirts etc raise some dosh, the country is on its knee's, one last push from the great war leader to help get us out of "our" mess : judging by some remarks on here, the demand for souvenir DVD's will create a couple of 100 jobs at Amazon !!
oldchemist
08-Apr-13, 15:04
Scorrie - I can't figure out Tony's anagram "a towering politician". Must be offensive surely?
Sorry G. I really don't know how to respond to this. Are you saying we should have let the Falklands remain in Argentine hands? Or that we as a nation should not have the right to vary the strength of the Armed forces? Virtually every bit of kit sent was obsolete. Luckily, crewed, manned and operated by the most magnificent body of men and women.
Personally I'd have said to hell with it and nuked BA into a glass carpark. (That is why I'm not allowed to operate dangerous machinery. :eek:)
Well you will be happy Scameron has continued her policies and scrapped our aircraft carriers. If Argentina invade again there'll be nothing we can do about it, thanks to the continuation of her policies.
Tweet of the day.
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q672/Forumstufftoo/Forum%20bits/ScreenShot2013-04-08at152948_zps1a1a973c.jpeg
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 15:59
Sorry G. I really don't know how to respond to this. Are you saying we should have let the Falklands remain in Argentine hands? Or that we as a nation should not have the right to vary the strength of the Armed forces? Virtually every bit of kit sent was obsolete. Luckily, crewed, manned and operated by the most magnificent body of men and women.
Personally I'd have said to hell with it and nuked BA into a glass carpark. (That is why I'm not allowed to operate dangerous machinery. :eek:)
"Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they’ll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces..." never truer words spoke, and who said that then ???
macadamia
08-Apr-13, 16:36
RIP Margaret Thatcher.
Another disgusting outpouring of hatred and a total lack of respect for the deceased.
My concolences to Janet and Sir Mark for the loss of their mother.
rob murray
08-Apr-13, 16:46
Another disgusting outpouring of hatred and a total lack of respect for the deceased.
My concolences to Janet and Sir Mark for the loss of their mother.
What hatred ? Thats your take on things ???
What hatred ? Thats your take on things ???
"Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" If that is not hatred that I dont know what is.
John Little
08-Apr-13, 16:55
Who's Janet? (Whisper)
Virtually every bit of kit sent was obsolete. Luckily, crewed, manned and operated by the most magnificent body of men and women.
I never inferred that we should not have gone to defend the Falkland Islanders, my main gripe was that her government had just put a set of cuts that was going to decimate our troops, and many had their redundancy in their lockers. I agree our troops did magnificently under dire duress, what galls me Maggie glorified herself, if the Falklands war had not happened at that opertune moment, she would not have served another term in power. She was warned that the Argies were up to skulduggery by the then Falklands guard ship HMS Endurance, but what was her answer .....scrap the Endurance.
http://www.thedockyard.co.uk/NetsiteCMS/pageid/827/Falklands
Who's Janet? (Whisper)
Here she is - http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/staff/jthatcher
or is this her http://www.hanc.com/janet-thatcher/
teehee
Well you will be happy Scameron has continued her policies and scrapped our aircraft carriers. If Argentina invade again there'll be nothing we can do about it, thanks to the continuation of her policies.
Apart from anhialating them with some really hi tech kit.
Where there is discord, may we bring harmony.
Where there is error, may we bring truth.
Where there is doubt, may we bring faith.
And where there is despair, may we bring hope.
0/4. See me.
And Scameron thinks he'll get away with a publicly funded funeral? He'll do well to take a leaf from the American book and lose the cadaver at sea.
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q672/Forumstufftoo/Forum%20bits/ScreenShot2013-04-08at172809_zps23563a56.jpeg
There is enough crap in the sea without adding to it. Burn her, in public so that we can all see that she has gone
I don't like to speak ill, of the dead. But I won't loose any sleep over her death.
In my opinion she was a vile and vindictive person and one of the poorest leaders we have had.
However I don't believe in gloating over someones death, so will stop at that.
I don't like to speak ill, of the dead.
Why? That didn't stop her speaking ill of the dead after Hilsborough.
Why? That didn't stop her speaking ill of the dead after Hilsborough.She may not have any respect. But I do.
tonkatojo
08-Apr-13, 18:37
[QUOTE=ducati;1019428]One of a small handful of great military leaders. I'm sure our armed forces would want the opportunity to pay respects.[/QUOT
Well this ex serviceman certainly does not, if the tory lot want her to have a semi state send off you lot should pay for it.
John Little
08-Apr-13, 18:39
[QUOTE=ducati;1019428]One of a small handful of great military leaders. I'm sure our armed forces would want the opportunity to pay respects.[/QUOTWell this ex serviceman certainly does not, if the tory lot want her to have a semi state send off you lot should pay for it.That's a good idea. Tories want a big funeral then Tories should pay for it. Not with my taxes anyway.
And now nearly every newsreader is wearing something black.
Who made that decision?
macadamia
08-Apr-13, 18:47
I conducted a poll on Face Book, and included the Org in, to give a little Scottish flavour to it. Seeing the some of the shameful scrawlings above, I thought I'd share it with you here.
"De mortuis nil nisi bonum". I thought it would be interesting to gather all the comments from FB and other sites regarding positive and negative remarks so far regarding the late Margaret Thatcher, one of the most revolutionary UK and World politicians and stateswomen of her century. I even included comments as "negative" where the category should have read "product of a sick mind". Here, then, are the results of the UK Jury
POSITIVE 124
NEGATIVE 39
NEUTRAL 0
Statistically, this means diddley-squat. But I think it does indicate that even in death the most controversial PM of the last 100 years still commands a 76% majority.
Arthur Scargill, still alive, doesn't.
cptdodger
08-Apr-13, 18:49
Why? That didn't stop her speaking ill of the dead after Hilsborough.
Anybody that was involved in the cover up of that awful, awful tragedy, most certainly does not deserve a "ceremonial" funeral.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/hillsborough/48991/jack-straw-blames-thatcher-hillsborough-police-cover
I conducted a poll on Face Book,
Statistically, this means diddley-squat.
Fixed that for you.
John Little
08-Apr-13, 18:59
I conducted a poll on Face Book, and included the Org in, to give a little Scottish flavour to it. Seeing the some of the shameful scrawlings above, I thought I'd share it with you here.
"De mortuis nil nisi bonum". I thought it would be interesting to gather all the comments from FB and other sites regarding positive and negative remarks so far regarding the late Margaret Thatcher, one of the most revolutionary UK and World politicians and stateswomen of her century. I even included comments as "negative" where the category should have read "product of a sick mind". Here, then, are the results of the UK Jury POSITIVE 124 NEGATIVE 39 NEUTRAL 0 Statistically, this means diddley-squat. But I think it does indicate that even in death the most controversial PM of the last 100 years still commands a 76% majority. Arthur Scargill, still alive, doesn't.
No. It's an indication that she commands some support. Full stop.
I
Arthur Scargill, still alive, doesn't.
I liked Arthur Scargill even less than Maggie
M Swanson
08-Apr-13, 19:12
Another disgusting outpouring of hatred and a total lack of respect for the deceased.
My concolences to Janet and Sir Mark for the loss of their mother.
Well said, mi16. I notice you always post to challenge nasty comments and it speaks much of you as a person. But, the hatefulness and bitterness is not a measure of MH's failure, but testament of her amazing success as a strong, dedicated, leader. It took incredible courage to crush the unions who were holding Britain to ransom and their supporters have never come to terms with their defeat. The insults wash as easily over me and hundreds of thousands of others as I'm confident they would the great lady herself.
I won't labour any more points, because whilst your condolences are sincere and respectful, I'm not aware of your thoughts of her as a PM.
I repeat, RIP, Baroness Thatcher.
The Thatcher effect on the UK's Gini coefficient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient).
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q672/Forumstufftoo/Forum bits/gini-index-uk_zps26845d0d.jpg
John Little
08-Apr-13, 19:18
That's fairly conclusive. To me anyway. Inequality soared.
Well said, mi16. I notice you always post to challenge nasty comments and it speaks much of you as a person. But, the hatefulness and bitterness is not a measure of MH's failure, but testament of her amazing success as a strong, dedicated, leader. It took incredible courage to crush the unions who were holding Britain to ransom and their supporters have never come to terms with their defeat. The insults wash as easily over me and hundreds of thousands of others as I'm confident they would the great lady herself. I won't labour any more points, because whilst your condolences are sincere and respectful, I'm not aware of your thoughts of her as a PM. I repeat, RIP, Baroness Thatcher.Why thank you sir (or madam)Mrs Thatcher had great success as the PM as well as many lows.However that was just her career.She wasn't a cold blooded killer, a rapist, a pedophile or and other such horror.She was the PM who was elected by us.In the past weeks, months and years though she was simply a unwell old woman at the end of her life. And to see folk saying good riddance etc is plain distasteful, I wonder what they would say if the same was said of their loved ones when they pass away?
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 20:13
I do not think the 255 who were killed during the Falklands war will be able to or want to pay their respects, thousand of personell went down there with their redundancy notices in their pockets. How many were able to cash them in? She cut the troops, that eventually she used to boost her own standingHaving served in the armed forces during that time I respectfully suggest unless you served in the armed forces and saw combat in the Falklands you do not disrespect those who died names to glorify your political beliefs !
Why thank you sir (or madam)Mrs Thatcher had great success as the PM as well as many lows.However that was just her career.She wasn't a cold blooded killer, a rapist, a pedophile or and other such horror.She was the PM who was elected by us.In the past weeks, months and years though she was simply a unwell old woman at the end of her life. And to see folk saying good riddance etc is plain distasteful, I wonder what they would say if the same was said of their loved ones when they pass away?
She called Mandela a terrorist and refused to sanction South Africa over apartheid, and she was bezzie mates with Pinochet and Savile. I am glad she's dead, now I want to see an open casket funeral so I can see for myself the stake through her heart. Thousands disagree with you and are organising street parties the length of the country to celebrate the old witch pegging it.
She called Mandela a terrorist and refused to sanction South Africa over apartheid, and she was bezzie mates with Pinochet and Savile. I am glad she's dead, now I want to see an open casket funeral so I can see for myself the stake through her heart. Thousands disagree with you and are organising street parties the length of the country to celebrate the old witch pegging it.If there are thousands of folk with your opinion on a dead person then this country has really stooped to a new low.I have heard Fred west being remembered more fondly
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-street-parties-1818618
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 20:28
But if you've ever eaten Mr Whippy Ice Cream and enjoyed it then thank Margaret Thatcher as she was part of the team that invented it prior to her political career. Also unlike our left wing former masters she did t leave the country on its knees and virtually bankrupt, her wars weren't illegal a la mode de Mr Blair nor did she employ the lies and spin of the Labour Party she wasn't perfect but she wasn't a devil either som eof her policies good some but I don't think she destroyed the unions they destroyed themselves and history has now shown that quite a few former union leaders where paid by the Russians so in other less liberal times they would be called traitors and hung. She sold the council house to the tenants who wanted to buy them no one was forced to buy them so please stop all silly political rubbish. At the end of the day I doubt any of you met her let alone knew her so you're all blathering,fed to you by the media political hogwash those who say the hate her etc etc obviously don't know what true hate is !
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-street-parties-1818618As stated earlier, we are at a new low.Be interested to see what morons attend the street party
But if you've ever eaten Mr Whippy Ice Cream and enjoyed it then thank Margaret Thatcher as she was part of the team that invented it prior to her political career. Also unlike our left wing former masters she did t leave the country on its knees and virtually bankrupt, her wars weren't illegal a la mode de Mr Blair nor did she employ the lies and spin of the Labour Party she wasn't perfect but she wasn't a devil either som eof her policies good some but I don't think she destroyed the unions they destroyed themselves and history has now shown that quite a few former union leaders where paid by the Russians so in other less liberal times they would be called traitors and hung. She sold the council house to the tenants who wanted to buy them no one was forced to buy them so please stop all silly political rubbish. At the end of the day I doubt any of you met her let alone knew her so you're all blathering,fed to you by the media political hogwash those who say the hate her etc etc obviously don't know what true hate is !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yopNkcDzQQw
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 20:38
Nothing disgusts me more than armchair activists who sit spewing bile and hatred on their computers generally non of these will have done an awful lot for their country except maybe contributed to global warming with all their gas about how awful this that or the other person is or was and how the hard working people should give them everything free. My simple answer get a backbone and if you really feel our country is that bad feel free to emigrate to somewhere you feel life is better!
I conducted a poll on Face Book, and included the Org in, to give a little Scottish flavour to it. Seeing the some of the shameful scrawlings above, I thought I'd share it with you here.
"De mortuis nil nisi bonum". I thought it would be interesting to gather all the comments from FB and other sites regarding positive and negative remarks so far regarding the late Margaret Thatcher, one of the most revolutionary UK and World politicians and stateswomen of her century. I even included comments as "negative" where the category should have read "product of a sick mind". Here, then, are the results of the UK Jury
POSITIVE 124
NEGATIVE 39
NEUTRAL 0
Statistically, this means diddley-squat. But I think it does indicate that even in death the most controversial PM of the last 100 years still commands a 76% majority.
Arthur Scargill, still alive, doesn't.
After Stalin died grown men wept in the streets. The public love a good old funeral and it's seen as "nice" to soften towards someone previously hated once they die, or are diagnosed with a terminal illness. I would imagine many of Facebook's younger readers will not know a lot about Mr T's late wife and might be interested to hear what the representative of the Durham miners had to say regarding her passing on Sky News. Rightly or wrongly they made no pretense of anything other than being happy campers, which is their prerogative. Some will say "The Witch is dead" is a harsh statement, others will argue that there must be a spelling mistake in the second word of that quotation. I leave this debate with the words of the old wifie in the street who, on hearing that Mrs Thatcher had died following a stroke stated:-
"Serves her right for playing golf at her age"
Can someone call Ragnar's mummy, he appears to have spit his dummy out the pram. :lol:
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 20:47
Can someone call Ragnar's mummy, he appears to have spit his dummy out the pram. :lol:Oh come on do try a bit harder I've had kids say worse to me . And if I did spit my dummy you'd have a hole in your head :0)
Oh come on do try a bit harder I've had kids say worse to me . And if I did spit my dummy you'd have a hole in your head :0)
Typical right-winger, can't handle being on the losing end of an argument and so threatens violence instead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy3-R97wDKs
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 21:08
I'm neither right wing or left I'm a wonderfully sensible mixture of a bit right a bit left and a bit liberal which means I live firmly in the real world unlike you dear Flynn!But I do have a measure of your manliness .....I can read the headlines .... Grown man feels threatened by child's dummy!Fear not you can crawl out from behind your armchair and stop whimpering in fear to the best of my knowledge children's dummies have not been involved in ballistic damage to the human torso! Infact I do believe they come with a CE mark which means you're safe big man !
I'm neither right wing or left I'm a wonderfully sensible mixture of a bit right a bit left and a bit liberal which means I live firmly in the real world unlike you dear Flynn!But I do have a measure of your manliness .....I can read the headlines .... Grown man feels threatened by child's dummy!Fear not you can crawl out from behind your armchair and stop whimpering in fear to the best of my knowledge children's dummies have not been involved in ballistic damage to the human torso! Infact I do believe they come with a CE mark which means you're safe big man !
Hahaha! Try intimidating someone else son, it won't work with me. :lol:
“She created today’s housing crisis. She created the banking crisis. And she created the benefits crisis. It was her government that started putting people on incapacity benefit rather than register them as unemployed because the Britain she inherited was broadly full employment.
She decided when she wrote off our manufacturing industry that she could live with two or three million unemployed, and the benefits bill, the legacy of that, we are struggling with today. In actual fact, every real problem we face today is the legacy of the fact that she was fundamentally wrong.” - Ken Livingstone on Thatcher
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 21:27
Hahaha1 Try intimidating someone else son, it won't work with me. :lol:Are you really that delusional ? No ones tried intimidating you ! Up or change your meds they aren't working
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 21:49
Typical right-winger, can't handle being on the losing end of an argument and so threatens violence instead.So we shall ignore histories list of cant win an argument lefties and resort to violence err Stalin, Mao, Pol and Oooh isn't that North Korean chap wanting to nuke everyone a left winger. Nuff said comrade Flynn
So we shall ignore histories list of cant win an argument lefties and resort to violence err Stalin, Mao, Pol and Oooh isn't that North Korean chap wanting to nuke everyone a left winger. Nuff said comrade Flynn
Do you really want the thread to descend into Godwinism?
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 21:54
Do you really want the thread to descend into Godwinism?I refuse to use that to justify anything but nice attempt by you try !
Well if you're going to start naming commie dictators it's only fair we mention the worst dictator and genocidal maniac in all history...
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 22:10
Well if you're going to start naming commie dictators it's only fair we mention the worst dictator and genocidal maniac in all history... I think you'll find that Uncle Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao successfully managed to slaughter millions of their own countrymen behind closed doors you'll find history has rewritten the worst genocidal maniac of all time handbook and they feature right up the top now. The reality is genocidal maniacs use politics as a means to an end extremists of any persuasion are a bad thing And as for your mention of godwinism.While falling afoul of Godwin's law tends to cause the individual making the comparison to lose their argument or credibility, Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate
Having served in the armed forces during that time I respectfully suggest unless you served in the armed forces and saw combat in the Falklands you do not disrespect those who died names to glorify your political beliefs !
I am not disrespecting the fallen at all, I am just pointing out that her government sent hundreds of RN personell to the Falklands with their redundancy notices in their lockers, many were on terminal leave and were called back to man the Armada that was sent down.I wonder how many came back to collect their redundancy And yes I was a member of the forces in those days, a Royal Naval Reservist, but I never saw combat at that time, I did however serve at MOD HQ, but can tell you no more.
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 22:14
Well if you're going to start naming commie dictators it's only fair we mention the worst dictator and genocidal maniac in all history...German fascist dictator about 17 million civiliansRussian Communist dictator about 26 million civilians And you're saying the German was worse ?
John Little
08-Apr-13, 22:18
No. The worst was probably Hong Xiuquan.
I think you'll find that Uncle Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao successfully managed to slaughter millions of their own countrymen behind closed doors you'll find history has rewritten the worst genocidal maniac of all time handbook and they feature right up the top now. The reality is genocidal maniacs use politics as a means to an end extremists of any persuasion are a bad thing And as for your mention of godwinism.While falling afoul of Godwin's law tends to cause the individual making the comparison to lose their argument or credibility, Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate
I mention Godwinism because it was you who resorted to it.
[QUOTE=tonkatojo;1019518]That's a good idea. Tories want a big funeral then Tories should pay for it. Not with my taxes anyway.
Great idea, and only leftys fund the scro...er :eek:
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 22:27
I mention Godwinism because it was you who resorted to it.Nope I've still not mentioned him despite your attempts to get me to I fact you are the one who mentioned that particular regime first so if the cap fits Flynn wear it don't be so shy !
John Little
08-Apr-13, 22:27
[QUOTE=John Little;1019519]Great idea, and only leftys fund the scro...er :eek:Lol. The great irony of this is that you think I'm a "lefty". such a convenient label. i hope you never meet a real one.
[QUOTE=ducati;1019619]Lol. The great irony of this is that you think I'm a "lefty". such a convenient label. i hope you never meet a real one.
So do I! :lol:
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 22:36
I am not disrespecting the fallen at all, I am just pointing out that her government sent hundreds of RN personell to the Falklands with their redundancy notices in their lockers, many were on terminal leave and were called back to man the Armada that was sent down.I wonder how many came back to collect their redundancy And yes I was a member of the forces in those days, a Royal Naval Reservist, but I never saw combat at that time, I did however serve at MOD HQ, but can tell you no more.Well if you were RN reserve you weren't there nor where you a serving member of the regular armed forces and saying you worked at MOD HQ is well laughable in the regs you'd be called a REMF which I suppose is as suitable a term as I can muster. I'm fully aware of the official secrets act and if you're as old as you suggest but still can't say anything that would say everything so don't try the James Bond I can't say anything line as its baloney used by floor sweepers to sound big down the pub !
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 22:38
[QUOTE=John Little;1019621]So do I! :lol:I've met a few funnily enough two arms two legs, eyes all the usual bits the same as the rest of us they really are nothing to be scared of :0)
secrets in symmetry
08-Apr-13, 22:38
0/4. See me.0/4 indeed.
Why though would you want her to come back and haunt you?
secrets in symmetry
08-Apr-13, 22:41
Typical right-winger, can't handle being on the losing end of an argument and so threatens violence instead.Speaking of right wingers and the threat of violence, the retrodden one seems to have disappeared with his usual haste....
secrets in symmetry
08-Apr-13, 22:46
I don't think this is one of those JFK or Lady Diana moments.I was on the forum, and I read about it in cesare's thread entitled thatcher dies (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?201293-Margaret-Thatcher&p=1019400#post1019400).
I bet not many can tell their grandchildren that they learned the news by reading cesare on caithness.org!
I did my celebrating as a young loon when she died as a politician on November 22, 1990. Today's event was the sad death of a sick old lady.
[QUOTE=ducati;1019624]I've met a few funnily enough two arms two legs, eyes all the usual bits the same as the rest of us they really are nothing to be scared of :0)
Yes, just my little joke. Some of my best friends and all that..
Well if you were RN reserve you weren't there nor where you a serving member of the regular armed forces and saying you worked at MOD HQ is well laughable in the regs you'd be called a REMF which I suppose is as suitable a term as I can muster. I'm fully aware of the official secrets act and if you're as old as you suggest but still can't say anything that would say everything so don't try the James Bond I can't say anything line as its baloney used by floor sweepers to sound big down the pub !
What an insulting pratt you have turned out to be, Reservists be they RN, TA or RAF when called up are as much serving armed forces as you allegedly were, and still are in Afghanistan at the moment, where did I say I was trying to make myself a James Bond type, I just see no need to brag about what I did or did not do., OH I love my ignore button!!!
John Little
08-Apr-13, 22:55
[QUOTE=ducati;1019624]I've met a few funnily enough two arms two legs, eyes all the usual bits the same as the rest of us they really are nothing to be scared of :0)
Ah, but there are quite a few of the left, as there are of the right, who would shoot you for disagreeing with them.
Poor Duke is a hell of a nice chap and does not deserve to be shot.
Now me, I am a Social Democrat and look for balance in society. They would shoot me too.
RagnarRocks
08-Apr-13, 22:58
What an insulting pratt you have turned out to be, Reservists be they RN, TA or RAF when called up are as much serving armed forces as you allegedly were, and still are in Afghanistan at the moment, where did I say I was trying to make myself a James Bond type, I just see no need to brag about what I did or did not do., OH I love my ignore button!!!Reservist nowadays may play a role and during the world wars but back then in the 1980s it was not the case so my initial comment is correct you've served nowhere and done nothing, Therefor you do not have that particular right,revisionist history is unappealing at best So using the ultimate sacrifice of fallen comrades to justify your political points is unacceptable ! And should you ever wish to see a service record, medals earned and scars worn after I'd be more than happy to compare them against yours ! Of which I suspect you possess zero !
piratelassie
08-Apr-13, 23:58
Thatcher was a wicked uncompromising tory bag. She supported dictators, called Nelson Mandela a terrorist and among other things did more damage to Brittish industry than Hitler ever managed.
Why thank you sir (or madam)Mrs Thatcher had great success as the PM as well as many lows.However that was just her career.She wasn't a cold blooded killer, a rapist, a pedophile or and other such horror.She was the PM who was elected by us.In the past weeks, months and years though she was simply a unwell old woman at the end of her life. And to see folk saying good riddance etc is plain distasteful, I wonder what they would say if the same was said of their loved ones when they pass away?
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 00:00
Don't forget that the worst of Thatcher's many appalling Chancellors was a northern Scot - and an even more northern one than (m)any of us!
It amazes me the amount of people on here, on facebook and beyond who want to celebrate Thatcher's death.
Like her or not, she was voted in as PM 3 times through democratic process. Disagree with her policies - fair enough - but the fact is the majority of the electorate wanted her and her party in power at that time.
That's democracy. If you don't agree with it, offer a solution.
I've never voted conservative in my life, but the fact is her party was voted in following the "winter of discontent" when the voting public became fed up of being held to ransom by the trade unions. Although I don't agree, I can understand why.
She wasn't a dictator. She was what the public voted for. Mocking her or celebrating her death is, in my opinion, really is a bit sad.
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 00:10
Amen to that. Grave-dancers demean only themselves.
Oh this is nice!
In other news, City won!
RagnarRocks
09-Apr-13, 06:34
Why is it on this forum that the left wingers think it acceptable to personalise everything resort to name calling or direct personal attacks doesn't inspire me to feel they have valid points or a cause worthy of intellectual consideration! There are aspects of socialism I embrace fully so the concept itself isn't all bad.But in this particular instance over the death of an elderly woman a mother and grandmother and our first female prime minister democratically elected and voted in 3 times any sane person must consider whether basic common decent behaviour is too much to ask for!
Why is it on this forum that the left wingers think it acceptable to personalise everything resort to name calling or direct personal attacks doesn't inspire me to feel they have valid points or a cause worthy of intellectual consideration! There are aspects of socialism I embrace fully so the concept itself isn't all bad.But in this particular instance over the death of an elderly woman a mother and grandmother and our first female prime minister democratically elected and voted in 3 times any sane person must consider whether basic common decent behaviour is too much to ask for!
Chileans wouldn't mourn Pinochet, even though at the end he was a 'frail old man', and I strongly doubt Zimbabweans will mourn Mugabe, even though he will likely be a 'frail old man' at the end. She's mother to a lawbreaking arms dealing son, and a bigoted racist daughter. Her legacy does indeed live on in her progeny.
Closed Britain's industries, privatised the utilities, privatised public transport, deregulated the stock market and banks, sold off social housing on the cheap.
How well did all that work out?
Let's see:
We still have mass unemployment first created by closing down Britain's industrial base. We had near full employment when she was first elected.
We have the most expensive gas, electricity, and water in Europe.
Our railways are now the most expensive in Europe, and buses only run profitable routes leaving millions with no bus services.
The country is bankrupt and in a deep recession due to deregulated money trading and banking.
We now have a massive housing shortage and an enormous housing benefit bill due to the lack of social housing because she wouldn't allow councils to build more social housing with the money they got from council house sales.
Great legacy
Elected three times. First time on the back of nationwide industrial unrest. The second on the back of an unnecessary war. The third on the back of selling people their council house on the cheap. Looks like one easy win and two bought elections to me. And let's not forget she wasn't voted out, her own party got shot of her because they'd had enough of her.
I have been taken aback by the visceral nature of the comments made everywhere over the death of Margaret Thatcher. I am no supporter of her policies and I think her premiership led to dreadful inequalities and hopelessness that we have struggled to rectify since. I could not bring myself to have a street party to celebrate the death of anyone. I read this yesterday on facebook and felt it is worth repeating here. I will not credit it with the persons name but in the midst of the whirlwind of vicious unpleasantness and hate I have read all day, I felt this person said somethings worth reading.
"During the 1984/85 Miners' strike, Margaret Thatcher called my dad, my family & all our mining communities "the enemy within." That really hurt me a lot, as I was only young & had never before seen such vicious class hatred. We suffered a lot. Everybody did. My mum's health was vulnerable, so she had multiple heart attacks due to fuel poverty - no heating in the freezing cold, as the Tories tried to starve my dad back to work. (Mum became a cardiac cripple, was brain damaged & died a few years later, still in her 40s. My dad wasn't long behind her.)
When Norman Tebbit was pulled out of the rubble alive after the IRA Brighton Bombing the same year as the strike, my parents made me promise them that I would never let anger about Thatcherism cause me to lose my humanity. So I have sympathy for Mrs Thatcher's bereaved loved ones. Any loss is painful & it must have been hard for them to watch her deterioration as a frail old woman.
But my thoughts are elsewhere, with all those who have suffered or died before their time due to neo-liberalism - the new name for Thatcherism. They are too many to mention, but include young conscripted Argentinian sailors murderer in Thatcher's war crime on the Belgrano; the 'disappeared' who were thrown out of helicopters in Chile by Thatcher's great friend Pinochet. My thoughts are with all those who died in Reagan's wars. Also with the children in Libya who died when F1-11s based in the UK bombed Gadaffi. My thoughts are with my own relatives who died and with everyone in the former mining communities who is still hurting.My thoughts are also with those who are suffering throughout the world today due to the financial crisis caused by neo-liberal economics and due to imperialist wars.
In the UK there is a new 'enemy within' - anyone poor or disabled who is on benefits or has a spare bedroom. So enjoy your street parties, but I feel rather solemn & sad & don't feel like dancing on an old woman's grave. I'd rather have a quiet glass of champagne & resolve to step up my efforts to bury Thatcher's utterly failed, morally bankrupt ideology. I'll toast those who have gone before and all those throughout the world who have struggled against neo-liberalism. I'll mourn the utter betrayal of the working class by the UK Labour party. Wherever you are in the world, my thoughts are with you in your personal & political struggles. "
Now you may find the language too lefty for your liking but This person had their political views shaped and nurtured by the policies of Margaret Thatcher. Policies which were divisive and have led to dreadful inequalities. I cannot mourn her or feel sad but I cannot dance on her grave either.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 08:21
You won't see it that way, but whether you like it, or not, in writing this post I've no doubt that you've joined the grave dancers and having a whale of a time. Somehow, I expected a little better from you Squidge. Ah! Well!
The Thatcher effect on the UK's Gini coefficient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient).
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q672/Forumstufftoo/Forum bits/gini-index-uk_zps26845d0d.jpg
I can also do charts, sans the misleading cherry picking.
Unemployment levels skyrocketed, and have never returned to pre-Thatcher levels.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46193000/gif/_46193798_unemployment_466.gif
GDP per capita was essentially the same as other European countries, who didn't have similar leaders (https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_kd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:DEU:FRA:GBR:NLD&ifdim=region&tstart=166230000000&tend=734310000000&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false&icfg).
Actually GDP started in a recession, left in a recession. She presided over a natural recovery, there's a similar Gini index graph for all western democracies at that time.
http://www.masheduk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/UK_GDP_1_0609.gif
On a side note and as a point of order GDP is not the Economy.
http://www.neweconomyworkinggroup.org/visions/living-wealth-indicators/gdp-flawed-measure-progress (http://www.neweconomyworkinggroup.org/visions/living-wealth-indicators/gdp-flawed-measure-progress)
Then there is also the fact that GDP takes no account of how income is distributed. There could be complete income equality with everyone's purchasing power growing equally. Or the society may be divided between a small minority of the extremely affluent and a majority of the extremely destitute---or anything in between. GDP gives no clue one way or the other. Growth in the incomes of a few billionaires can produce impressive growth in GDP even as a majority of people starve.
Underlying all these deficiencies is the simple fact that GDP is based on market transactions, which means GDP is a measure of the rate at which money is flowing through the economy. Anything that increases the flow is therefore treated as a positive, even if it is clearly a negative for the society. Furthermore, because money metrics make no distinction between phantom wealth and real wealth, activities that generate profits from purely financial transactions unrelated to the creation of anything of real value count as additions to GDP and presumably to national well-being.
That is why restructuring the economy to shrink the manufacturing sector and grow the financial sector could appear to make us richer as a nation, when in fact it reduced our capacity to produce real things in favor of giving priority to generating profits from the exchange of worthless financial assets.
Thatcher is only really liked by a certain type of person living in the home counties.
M Swanson you dont half post some nonsensical stuff. How is it dancing on someone's grave to express a view that she was divisive and her policies led to inequalities? I thought this was a measured and unhysterical explanation of the view of someone who might well be expected to join in with the hysteria that is going on. A good way to balance things out. As for what YOU expect of me M Swanson.... I utterly do not care one iota for your opinion, good bad or indifferent I utterly do not care.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 08:56
Nope! You just used someone elses bigotry to gate-crash the party, Squidge, imo.
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 08:59
As I said last night...
I did my celebrating as a young loon when she died as a politician on November 22, 1990. Today's event was the sad death of a sick old lady.
I don't dance on her grave, but I don't denigrate those who do, because I too recall her appalling economic, monetary, and social records. She was the architect of our country's present day economic imbalance, and the architect of its inequality. Indeed, Michael Forsyth was beaming on TV this morning, whilst explaining exactly how she destroyed Scottish industry and replaced it with, err, ..., nothing. Well, not quite, she replaced it with unemployment, poverty, hopelessness and despair. Coal, steel, automobiles - she destroyed them all. Forsyth still doesn't understand what they did wrong, and I suspect the sick old lady didn't understand either.
Her successors Major, Blair and Brown, didn't do much to redress her industrial lunacy. If we want a strong woman leader who knows which way to drive the economy, we should reach out and steal Mrs Merkel - although I doubt we'd find much solace in many of her other policies....
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 09:02
If Margaret Hilda and her policies are as awful as you claim, SiS, then why, in 12 years governance did Labour do nothing to change them?
I wonder how many of you grew and prospered during her Premiership?
As I said last night...
I did my celebrating as a young loon when she died as a politician on November 22, 1990. Today's event was the sad death of a sick old lady.
I don't dance on her grave, but I don't denigrate those who do, because I too recall her appalling economic, monetary, and social records. She was the architect of our country's present day economic imbalance, and the architect of its inequality. Indeed, Michael Forsyth was beaming on TV this morning, whilst explaining exactly how she destroyed Scottish industry and replaced it with, err, ..., nothing. Well, not quite, she replaced it with unemployment, poverty, hopelessness and despair. Coal, steel, automobiles - she destroyed them all. Forsyth still doesn't understand what they did wrong, and I suspect the sick old lady didn't understand either.
Her successors Major, Blair and Brown, didn't do much to redress her industrial lunacy. If we want a strong woman leader who knows which way to drive the economy, we should reach out and steal Mrs Merkel - although I doubt we'd find much solace in many of her other policies....
Have to agree with you on this one SiS, sorry M Swanson I do not think you will get many over this side of the border thinking as you do on the subject of Mrs T.
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 09:06
Actually GDP started in a recession, left in a recession.A point of order - her first recession was entirely of her own making. Even Cameron and Osborne wouldn't copy the crimes against economics committed by Thatcher and Howe (aided and abetted by Keith Joseph).
Her second recession was mostly the fault of John Major - before and after he became PM.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 09:11
No problem Golach ...... I was already aware of that, but my beliefs are my own and as valid as anyone elses. I'm not afraid to air them in even the most hostile of surroundings. Would you have me any different? :cool:
Chileans wouldn't mourn Pinochet, even though at the end he was a 'frail old man', and I strongly doubt Zimbabweans will mourn Mugabe, even though he will likely be a 'frail old man' at the end. She's mother to a lawbreaking arms dealing son, and a bigoted racist daughter. Her legacy does indeed live on in her progeny.
Closed Britain's industries, privatised the utilities, privatised public transport, deregulated the stock market and banks, sold off social housing on the cheap.
How well did all that work out?
Let's see:
We still have mass unemployment first created by closing down Britain's industrial base. We had near full employment when she was first elected.
We have the most expensive gas, electricity, and water in Europe.
Our railways are now the most expensive in Europe, and buses only run profitable routes leaving millions with no bus services.
The country is bankrupt and in a deep recession due to deregulated money trading and banking.
We now have a massive housing shortage and an enormous housing benefit bill due to the lack of social housing because she wouldn't allow councils to build more social housing with the money they got from council house sales.
Great legacy
Elected three times. First time on the back of nationwide industrial unrest. The second on the back of an unnecessary war. The third on the back of selling people their council house on the cheap. Looks like one easy win and two bought elections to me. And let's not forget she wasn't voted out, her own party got shot of her because they'd had enough of her. Although I do not like speaking ill of the dead, unless they are paedophiles, murderers, rapists or anyone else who fits into that type of category. I have to say I agree with what you, and all the others, who have said all of these things about her. She made it so the ordinary working man/woman could not have a decent standard of living. Because when it came to shall I feed my kids, or pay the Poll Tax, guess which I chose. We could not survive on what my husband was earning, and pay that as well.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 09:13
A point of order - her first recession was entirely of her own making. Even Cameron and Osborne wouldn't commit the crimes against economics made by Thatcher and Howe (aided and abetted by Keith Joseph).
Her second recession was entirely the fault of John Major - before and after he became PM.
And still the people returned her to office ....... three times. She never lost an election. Now, you tell me how Labour improved things and what policies they changed, SiS? 10, 9, 8. :roll:
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 09:16
As I said last night...
I did my celebrating as a young loon when she died as a politician on November 22, 1990. Today's event was the sad death of a sick old lady.
I don't dance on her grave, but I don't denigrate those who do, because I too recall her appalling economic, monetary, and social records. She was the architect of our country's present day economic imbalance, and the architect of its inequality. Indeed, Michael Forsyth was beaming on TV this morning, whilst explaining exactly how she destroyed Scottish industry and replaced it with, err, ..., nothing. Well, not quite, she replaced it with unemployment, poverty, hopelessness and despair. Coal, steel, automobiles - she destroyed them all. Forsyth still doesn't understand what they did wrong, and I suspect the sick old lady didn't understand either.
Her successors Major, Blair and Brown, didn't do much to redress her industrial lunacy. If we want a strong woman leader who knows which way to drive the economy, we should reach out and steal Mrs Merkel - although I doubt we'd find much solace in many of her other policies....I forgot to add that Michael Forsyth is the inspiration, and indeed the economic guru, of many of the leading lights of the SDA. Vote SDA and get Thatcher's henchboy!
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 09:17
Although I do not like speaking ill of the dead, unless they are paedophiles, murderers, rapists or anyone else who fits into that type of category. I have to say I agree with what you, and all the others, who have said all of these things about her. She made it so the ordinary working man/woman could not have a decent standard of living. Because when it came to shall I feed my kids, or pay the Poll Tax, guess which I chose. We could not survive on what my husband was earning, and pay that as well.
I'd be genuinely interested to know if you consider your quality of life improved at any time throughout Margaret Hilda's leadership, Shazz? We need to bear in mind that many of her policies still dominate today's policies, despite the opportunity for Labour to change things in a period of 12 years.
As always Owen Jones hits the bullseye:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/owen-jones-thatcherism-was-a-national-catastrophe-that-still-poisons-us-8564858.html
I'd be genuinely interested to know if you consider your quality of life improved at any time throughout Margaret Hilda's leadership, Shazz? We need to bear in mind that many of her policies still dominate today's policies, despite the opportunity for Labour to change things in a period of 12 years.No I can't say my quality of life improved.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 09:27
No I can't say my quality of life improved.
Thanks for the response Shazza. I'm sorry to read that. :(
John Little
09-Apr-13, 09:39
As always Owen Jones hits the bullseye:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/owen-jones-thatcherism-was-a-national-catastrophe-that-still-poisons-us-8564858.html
I agree with that.
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 09:41
As always Owen Jones hits the bullseye:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/owen-jones-thatcherism-was-a-national-catastrophe-that-still-poisons-us-8564858.htmlThat's a good article.
The last paragraph is a bit too old-fashioned left-wing for my liking, but I can live with it.
John Little
09-Apr-13, 09:44
That's a good article.
The last paragraph is a bit too old-fashioned left-wing for my liking, but I can live with it.
That's a good point actually. The last thing we need is another polarizing government, and certainly not a dictatorship of the workers.
We need a government of the people, for the people and by the people. Y'know - Democracy.
Not for the workers. Not for the rich. Not for the market.
For us.
Wonder if we'll ever get one?
You get what you vote for.
John Little
09-Apr-13, 09:52
That is true. But if the choice is not very wide then you may have to vote for something you don't really want in order to avoid getting something you really really don't want.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 09:53
Don't fret John Little. Leave it to the likes of Owen Jones and his Communist, Trot, family background. He and his ilk will no doubt deliver the democracy goods. As history tells us. :lol:
Anyway, I'll look back later, when the Hinge & Bracket hour is over. [lol]
Have a good one, folks.
John Little
09-Apr-13, 09:56
Aye - awa and enjoy yer book.
Uncle Toms Cabin is it?
I've telt ye already, I do not fret.
Stop projecting on me.
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 09:56
That is true. But if the choice is not very wide then you may have to vote for something you don't really want in order to avoid getting something you really really don't want.Indeed. I've voted for "the one most likely to beat Fat Eck (or his patsy)" in Holyrood and Council elections for years.
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 09:58
That's a good point actually. The last thing we need is another polarizing government, and certainly not a dictatorship of the workers.
We need a government of the people, for the people and by the people. Y'know - Democracy.
Not for the workers. Not for the rich. Not for the market.
For us.
Wonder if we'll ever get one?Perhaps Obama would consider the job once his two terms in the White House are up.
tonkatojo
09-Apr-13, 10:01
[QUOTE=John Little;1019519]
Great idea, and only leftys fund the scro...er :eek:
The problem with your ideals are the so called "scr...er" will more than likely have paid for the pittance your lot want to pay them at some time in life, TBW was paid in taxes for the damage she did why pay for her funeral, as I said your lot should pay as well as her family ( I have prepaid my funeral expenses so no one has to) and have a contribution box if any others want to put up.
Her funeral is set to cost the taxpayer £8,000,000. In honour of the ideologies of the cadaver they should have put it out to tender in the private sector. I reckon Cory Environmental could have done it for a couple of grand.
John Little
09-Apr-13, 10:56
Well Flynn - that's only the weekly benefits of 150,943 people.
I'm sure we can afford it.
There are a lot of people complaining like M Swanson that people are being hateful towards a woman who was a wife a mother and a grandmother. The thing is we did not know Margaret Thatcher as a Wife, a mother or a grandmother, we knew her as one of the most divisive prime minister of modern times. I admire some things about her, her drive to succeed in the face of sexism and snobbery is impressive. Her policies, her legacy is shameful. You know, we should not speak poorly of the dead but her dying does not absolve her of responsibility for the long term damage she did to our society. It does not change the role she played in condemning many people to a life of poverty and long term unemployment, it does not change the fact that the current government are continuing what she started. Have sympathy with those who loved her as a wife, a mother and a grandmother, a friend also but lets not be surprised that many people can only be glad to see the end of a woman who they believe destroyed a way of life they loved and were proud of.
There are a lot of people complaining like M Swanson that people are being hateful towards a woman who was a wife a mother and a grandmother. The thing is we did not know Margaret Thatcher as a Wife, a mother or a grandmother, we knew her as one of the most divisive prime minister of modern times. I admire some things about her, her drive to succeed in the face of sexism and snobbery is impressive. Her policies, her legacy is shameful. You know, we should not speak poorly of the dead but her dying does not absolve her of responsibility for the long term damage she did to our society. It does not change the role she played in condemning many people to a life of poverty and long term unemployment, it does not change the fact that the current government are continuing what she started. Have sympathy with those who loved her as a wife, a mother and a grandmother, a friend also but lets not be surprised that many people can only be glad to see the end of a woman who they believe destroyed a way of life they loved and were proud of.Why would any person of sane mind celebrate the death of an ex politician who last held the PM's post over 20 years ago?the manifesto of current leaders is not her doing.Now I am no politician, Tory or Thatcherite, but as indicated earlier if the Tory policy of her premiership was so terribly wrong , why has no political party since repaired or even began to repair the damage done?
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 11:43
Careful. mi16! Here be dragons! Could it be the same reason cubic miles of newsprint, and gigawatts of airtime have been expended in the last 24 hours on this allegedly evil person who said to the country and the world "we are not going down the toilet. We are a can do country, and we will do." I don't recall Labour - or anyone - rescinding her policies. And even when Labour was voted in in 1997, it stuck to the Thatcher formula.
Of course we have sympathy with those who were left behind. In the same way we had sympathy for farriers, herring-gutters, wheelwrights and lamplighters when the demand for outdated and/or expensive processes disappeared.
But Maggie took us, kicking and screaming, into the real world of national and international competition and private enterprise.
As to celebrating her death, I say again "Grave dancers demean only themselves".
Why would any person of sane mind celebrate the death of an ex politician who last held the PM's post over 20 years ago?the manifesto of current leaders is not her doing.Now I am no politician, Tory or Thatcherite, but as indicated earlier if the Tory policy of her premiership was so terribly wrong , why has no political party since repaired or even began to repair the damage done?
If a certain German leader had survived the last Europe wide conflict, would you condemn people for celebrating when they eventually died? I hated Thatcher with a passion, just as she hated the working man. Her death didn't come soon enough for me.
Todays politics are deeply rooted in Thatcherism and the worship of private enterprise and profit above everything. She destroyed this country and made it one of the most unequal in the world. Before Thatcher we had near full employment, after she decimated British industry, sold everything off to foreign interests, we have had an unemployment level hovering around 3 million ever since.
At her funeral people lining the streets should, instead of flowers, throw lumps of coal in front of the cortege.
Wherever her remains finish up, I hope with all my being they are somewhere public enough I can one day go along and pay my 'respects'.
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 11:49
Oh yes, before Thatcher we had full employment. Controlled by the Unions, who made certain their block votes commanded the heights of "democracy" and who, when crossed, withdrew labour in arbitrary strikes which came to a head in 1979, when the country woke up, said a resounding "NO" and brought in some fresh thinking and approaches. Unions killed the Print, Dockyards, the Coal and umpteen other industries. Not Mrs. Thatcher. That's why the country kept voting her back. That was a bit closer to democracy than the smoke-filled rooms of the Cartel of Union Barons holding a collective gun to the head tof the British taxpayer.
And, for your benefit, I repeat - Grave dancers demean only themselves. There is no bravery in post mortem bravura.
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 11:53
Careful. mi16! Here be dragons! Could it be the same reason cubic miles of newsprint, and gigawatts of airtime have been expended in the last 24 hours on this allegedly evil person who said to the country and the world "we are not going down the toilet. We are a can do country, and we will do." I don't recall Labour - or anyone - rescinding her policies. And even when Labour was voted in in 1997, it stuck to the Thatcher formula.
Of course we have sympathy with those who were left behind. In the same way we had sympathy for farriers, herring-gutters, wheelwrights and lamplighters when the demand for outdated and/or expensive processes disappeared.
But Maggie took us, kicking and screaming, into the real world of national and international competition and private enterprise.
As to celebrating her death, I say again "Grave dancers demean only themselves".I didn't have you down as an apologist for Thatcherite industrial mismanagement.
Repeat after me...
Germany!
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 11:56
Blair and (especially) Brown were the architects of the great industrial sell-off (of what was left). Thatcher destroyed the bulk of our industries before anyone could buy them!
The unions had a big hand in our industrial demise, but she killed two birds with one giant brick.
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 11:58
A bit of a difference between A. Hitler and M. Thatcher, I'm thinking? I doubt very much whether, even if invited, HM Queen or her predecessors would have attended A. Hitler's funeral, because he was a Bad Man and killed millions of people (as did J. Stalin, Head of East Wing, whose regime was even celebrated by the forward-looking UK union barons and their flock. Her Queen IS attending M. Thatcher's funeral, because HMQ recognises M.Thatcher's contribution. As do the majority of the UK population.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 11:59
Bravo Mac and spot-on the money. The only things I would add, is that Flynn forgets to mention, that prior to MH's intervention, Britain was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Before calling for the miner's strike, Scargill drew a year's salary knowing that his men and their families would not have an income. I wonder if Flynn will dance on that Commie's grave, when he passes away, for using his members in the most heartless way, to try and oust MH? He cared nothing for, and is responsible, more than anyone else, for the plight of the miners. And the same for Blair too, who took up MH's policies and ran with them, throughout his 12 years governance?
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 12:03
"Scargill" (noun, substantive) i) A substance found under the shoe after a stroll through a camel enclosure at the zoo ii) A vitriolic combover with a stunted vision of reality. iii) Someone who voluntarily espouses victimhood when other options are available.
And, for your benefit, I repeat - Grave dancers demean only themselves. There is no bravery in post mortem bravura.
I fought while the hag was alive and in power. I marched with the miners, I stood in Trafalgar Square and watched in dismay as police on horseback bludgeoned innocent people. What did you do?
I'll dance on her grave and a do lot more than just dance as soon as I have the chance.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:04
I didn't have you down as an apologist for Thatcherite industrial mismanagement.
Repeat after me...
Germany!
LOL. Come on, now SiS. Let's have an answer to the question posted earlier. If MH's policies were as terrible as you claim, then why didn't the socialist Blair change them? He had years of opportunities to do so, but chose not to and in fact, was a fan of the great lady. Go on, post something of worth and try answering the question, SiS, please. I'll wait ........ shall I? :lol:
LOL. Come on, now SiS. Let's have an answer to the question posted earlier. If MH's policies were as terrible as you claim, then why didn't the socialist Blair change them? He had years of opportunities to do so, but chose not to and in fact, was a fan of the great lady. Go on, post something of worth and try answering the question, SiS, please. I'll wait ........ shall I? :lol:
Because Blair was no socialist. He was a Thatcherite. The greatest misfortune that befell the Labour party was the premature death of John Smith and the rise of Blair and Mandelson.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:06
I fought while the hag was alive and in power. I marched with the miners, I stood in Trafalgar Square and watched in dismay as police on horseback bludgeoned innocent people. What did you do?
I'll dance on her grave and a do lot more than just dance as soon as I have the chance.
Sorry Flynn, but seriously, you need help. Nothing you could ever do would have touched MH, nor anyone with half an ounce of sense, who used it to support her. Three elections ...... three victories. The only one that is affected adversely by hate, is the poor soul who tries to live with it. I pity you .... I really do. :(
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 12:07
Flynn - you have every right to do what you did. That's what a democracy is all about. I chose a different path. I voted for Maggie again and again as she was the only hope of breaking the back of the oppressive and stultifying unions.
However, whatever you did doesn't dilute my message. Grave dancers demean only themselves.
Sorry Flynn, but seriously, you need help. Nothing you could ever do would have touched MH, nor anyone with half an ounce of sense, who used it to support her. Three elections ...... three victories. The only one that is affected adversely by hate, is the poor soul who tries to live with it. I pity you .... I really do. :(
Three elections, first won through outright racism to fend off the National Front, the second won through outright jingoism, the third through bribery by selling houses at knock down prices.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:11
Because Blair was no socialist. He was a Thatcherite. The greatest misfortune that befell the Labour party was the premature death of John Smith and the rise of Blair and Mandelson.
As was Brown and the rest of the Labour Party, who rallied behind Blair, Flynn? And the voters who elected him three times? My goodness, MH was even greater and more popular than I remember. No wonder, many of her policies are still being used, to this day. :lol:
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:17
Well Flynn - that's only the weekly benefits of 150,943 people.
I'm sure we can afford it.
Or, put another way, John Little. The grand sum of 8p per capita. Cheap at half the price, I'd say. :cool:
As was Brown and the rest of the Labour Party, who rallied behind Blair, Flynn? And the voters who elected him three times? My goodness, MH was even greater and more popular than I remember. No wonder, many of her policies are still being used, to this day. :lol:
You seem to be under the misapprehension that we live in a Presidency. We do not elect Prime Ministers, we elect political parties.
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 12:19
I voted for Maggie again and again as she was the only hope of breaking the back of the oppressive and stultifying unions.Your true colours at last? I suppose it's consistent with your lack of understanding of climate change.
Hope they're going to give us all a day off. If we're paying to put the evil old hag in the ground then we should get the day off.
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 12:21
Hatred is a zero calorie diet. It provides no sustenance for the body, and about the same for the soul. as for climate change - one person's "lack of understanding" is anothers "binding vision".
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:23
You seem to be under the misapprehension that we live in a Presidency. We do not elect Prime Ministers, we elect political parties.
Not this nonsense, a-g-a-i-n, Flynn. The Party elects its leader and having done so, the voters choose whether, or not, to elect them. In my example, for 12 years the voters and Party chose Blair, despite his refusal to change any of MH's policies. He knew when he was on to a winner. They all do ....... still!
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 12:23
Hope they're going to give us all a day off. If we're paying to put the evil old hag in the ground then we should get the day off.I hope for her sake she's cremated. From what I've heard people threatening to do, they'd have to surround her grave with high security fences and a sewage works!
I fought while the hag was alive and in power. I marched with the miners, I stood in Trafalgar Square and watched in dismay as police on horseback bludgeoned innocent people. What did you do?
I'll dance on her grave and a do lot more than just dance as soon as I have the chance.
I cheered the police.
I particularly enjoyed the mounted charges, very entertaining.
Hatred is a zero calorie diet. It provides no sustenance for the body, and about the same for the soul. as for climate change - one person's "lack of understanding" is anothers "binding vision".
Funny you should say that, seeing as it was Thatcher who introduced the need to combat global warming into the political arena.
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 12:26
Hatred is a zero calorie diet. It provides no sustenance for the body, and about the same for the soul. as for climate change - one person's "lack of understanding" is anothers "binding vision".I've seen what you've written about climate change - the simple fact that you don't understand is as clear as day.
Not this nonsense, a-g-a-i-n, Flynn. The Party elects its leader and having done so, the voters choose whether, or not, to elect them. In my example, for 12 years the voters and Party chose Blair, despite his refusal to change any of MH's policies. He knew when he was on to a winner. They all do ....... still!
In all the years I've been a voter, I've never yet had a ballot paper asking to vote for anyone for the position of prime minister.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:31
Oh! Puleeeeeeze, Flynn. Whoever said you, or anyone else, ever has? Doh!
Oh! Puleeeeeeze, Flynn. Whoever said you, or anyone else, ever has? Doh!
You did, in post #168. Has all that nonsense in the Daily Hate addled your brain so much you've already forgotten what you wrote just a few minutes ago?
You seem to be under the misapprehension that we live in a Presidency. We do not elect Prime Ministers, we elect political parties.
Not this nonsense, a-g-a-i-n, Flynn. The Party elects its leader and having done so, the voters choose whether, or not, to elect them.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:36
I cheered the police.
I particularly enjoyed the mounted charges, very entertaining.
Me too, Ducati. I will always choose the rule of Law, over mob rule.
I cheered the police.
I particularly enjoyed the mounted charges, very entertaining.
A scots Tory who supported the poll tax. Is there anything lower?
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 12:38
SiS says I don't understand climate change (his superior judgment) so I'm not allowed to have opinions on Margaret Thatcher. Now, which part of the playground am I still allowed in, SiS? Be off with you, before I get my water-pistol out!
secrets in symmetry
09-Apr-13, 12:41
SiS says I don't understand climate change (his superior judgment) so I'm not allowed to have opinions on Margaret Thatcher. Now, which part of the playground am I still allowed in, SiS? Be off with you, before I get my water-pistol out!Your vociferous lack of understanding of climate change is symptomatic of Tory philosphy - it was a simple observation, that's all.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:42
You did, in post #168. Has all that nonsense in the Daily Hate addled your brain so much you've already forgotten what you wrote just a few minutes ago?
Last word on this nonsense, Flynn. I vote for a Party and the Leader of that Party. If I didn't approve of the elected chief, I would not vote for that Party. Take for example, if Hesletine had ever succeeded in his treachery to replace MH. Would I have voted for the Tory Party. No way, Hosea. It's what most people do when they decide where to place their vote. Do you really believe, that millions of Labour supporters rejected Blair, or did they suck up to him, d'ya think? Was he not as popular as he and millions of others thought he was? I'm excluding the tactical voting Commies, Trots, of course. :lol:
Cut out the silly DM nonsense Flynn. It's much too juvenile and I thought you worthy of a little bit better behaviour. But, I could be wrong, of course. :D
A scots Tory who supported the poll tax. Is there anything lower?
yes, a grave dancing moron
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 12:47
Game, set and match, mi16. :cool: Sadly, I have to spread it!
On that note, I'm away for lunch and then work. :cool:
Three elections, first won through outright racism to fend off the National Front, the second won through outright jingoism, the third through bribery by selling houses at knock down prices.
No Flynn, you are incorrect.
Three electrions, all won via the UK voting system.
Last word on this nonsense, Flynn. I vote for a Party and the Leader of that Party. If I didn't approve of the elected chief, I would not vote for that Party. Take for example, if Hesletine had ever succeeded in his treachery to replace MH. Would I have voted for the Tory Party. No way, Hosea. It's what most people do when they decide where to place their vote. Do you really believe, that millions of Labour supporters rejected Blair, or did they suck up to him, d'ya think? Was he not as popular as he and millions of others thought he was? I'm excluding the tactical voting Commies, Trots, of course. :lol:
Cut out the silly DM nonsense Flynn. It's much too juvenile and I thought you worthy of a little bit better behaviour. But, I could be wrong, of course. :D
I've never voted for any party based on their leader. Like most intelligent non-Daily Mail/Sun/Express readers I look at their policies and manifestos and then decide which party gets my vote.
yes, a grave dancing moron
We'll see about that when a politician you despise dies.
We'll see about that when a politician you despise dies.
You will be in your grave first Flynn, as it will not happen.
A scots Tory who supported the poll tax. Is there anything lower?
I'm not Scots. Showing reruns on the news now. Very exciting
A scots Tory who supported the poll tax. Is there anything lower?
You see your problem is although you pretend to want democracy, you don't believe anyone else has a right to an opinion. Particularly when you are wrong. :lol:
Me too, Ducati. I will always choose the rule of Law, over mob rule.
Unless the mob is the police breaking heads? So if a mob is paid from the public purse, it is an entity exempt from the rules which are meant to regulate our behaviour....ergo, it follows that a mob of people on benefits paid by the taxpayer and a mob of officious policemen paid by the taxpayer are at liberty to kick the crap out of each other with impunity?
Humerous Vegetable
09-Apr-13, 13:55
But in this particular instance over the death of an elderly woman a mother and grandmother and our first female prime minister democratically elected and voted in 3 times any sane person must consider whether basic common decent behaviour is too much to ask for!
She was never "democratically elected and voted in 3 times" here in Scotland, which was why the introduction of the Poll Tax to Scotland, a year before it was introduced elsewhere in the UK, by a government not having a majority up here, has left a bitter aftertaste and has led to most Scots loathing everything about the Tory party. You seem not to have been here at the time, so perhaps don't understand the depth of feeling among those of us who were.
She and her London cohorts never made any attempt to understand Scotland, the North of England, Wales or N Ireland. She thought that having sad buffoons like Malcolm Rifkind in her cabinet would give her some kind of political credibility.
This is the death of an arrogant, self-seeking English politican, who has caused immeasurable damage to the economic stability of this and many other countries and taxpayers should not be told to pay for burying her.
Her son Mark, who appears to be a multi-millionaire, on the back of various apparently criminal activities should, if he wants to draw attention to his mother, fund the experience. When he got lost in the Sahara in 1982, she apparently made great play of paying £1,900 towards his rescue and subsequent bar bills.
God only knows what the real costs were and how much of that she claimed as "expenses", but it's time he started paying back some of the taxpayers money he has consumed over the years and not expect those of us who never voted for her and who loathe and despise her "legacy" to pay vast amounts for this ridiculous circus.
When her carcass is paraded through London next week, good luck getting it done without riots:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-22077072
people need to get out more.....who cares....shes DEED :) very few liked her only brown nosers and idiots IMHO
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 14:15
Bearing a grudge is a voluntary activity. Some do, and stay with the past, and the past with them. Others also receive a slight, a hurt, or even a disaster, shrug it off, and move on. To bear a grudge is to perpetuate a past which cannot be changed, and therefore the bearing of a grudge can only be a a negative activity which weakens the bearer. It is like voluntarily picking up a bag of rotting offal, and carrying it around at great personal inconvenience, pushing it in peoples' faces, and insisting it is of some value. Eventually bearers of grudges find company and refuge only in the society of other grudge-bearers, where they are sentenced by themselves and each other to remember and even worship the negativity which holds them together. The energy wasted in bearing grudges is directly proportionate to wasted positive opportunities to progress.
Sadly, there are one or two such bitter souls having a pop in these columns. Wake up and smell the Starbucks! Life is too precious to hold on to yesterday's wrongs. Mark them, yes: - but then let go, move on, and look to the future.
Incidentally, you're not the worst. Remember the line about the plane landing at Belfast Airport during the height of the Troubles? "Ladies and Gentlemen, in a few moments we'll be landing at Belfast International Airport. Kindly put your watches back 400 years......."
Humerous Vegetable
09-Apr-13, 15:26
Illegalities such as Apertheid, Hillsborough and the Poll Tax are not "grudges" The past is what defines a person and a nation, however much you might want to ignore or denigrate that. All countries in the world are defined by their past, and even you appear to be able to remember (as quoted) the Falklands and Arthur Scargill. Surely those long past events do not have some kind of influence on your current postings?
I heard that florists all over Britain have been inundated with orders for Lathyrus odoratus. I called Interflora to find out why and was told:-
"Lots of people have said that they want to leave a Sweet Pea at Margaret Thatcher's graveside"
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 16:09
HV - there is a world of difference in remembering events which shaped the world, your country and your environment, and obsessing with them. Of course past events define the present, but our job is to move forward, rather than sit in the darkness muttering "no fair". What has happened, has happened. That can't be changed. And you know it.
Well well, how can anyone say she was devisive when, even in death, she is bringing the .Org together in a bitchfest.
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 17:11
Any alien reading the above would deduce that this lady must have been a very important leader indeed to have this effect on people thirty years or so after she stepped down......... Bitchfest is good!
Humerous Vegetable
09-Apr-13, 17:20
I, like most Scots, look forward to moving forward in the political process. There has been,as you say, a lot of obsessing in the current debate, much of which is centred on the "Let's Say Only Good Things About the Iron Lady, However Awful She Was" History is written by historians, and not necessarily by those directly affected by events. Unfortunately history is currently being re-written by those in power, to reflect those things which will best reflect upon them.
She was an appalling politician and person, who inflicted dire consquences on those of us not resident in the South East of England. We are shaped by our memories, and I make no apologies for mine.
Why am I, as a taxpayer who has never voted for her, being penalised by the UK government to pay for her funeral?
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 17:33
Well, if Flynn's figure of £8 Million is correct, your share will be 8p and what, if anything, does that buy these days? Nothing to break most of our strides, I'm sure, Humerous.
No, I'm more concerned with the threats of the Commies, Trots, Socialists, Anarchists and other such dross, who are threatening to riot and cause as much damage as they can. I wonder how much that will cost us? One thing's for sure, MH won't be affected by any of the moronic behaviour and I suspect she wouldn't have been if it took place whilst she was still alive. Still, their behaviour is following a similar pattern to the 80's rioting, which did absolutely nothing to promote their loathesome ideology, but plenty to assemble the public behind Mrs. T.
M Swanson
09-Apr-13, 17:38
Well well, how can anyone say she was devisive when, even in death, she is bringing the .Org together in a bitchfest.
Yes, I hadn't thought of that Phill. :D
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 17:47
HV, you are as personally being charged for MT's funeral as you are for roads you never use, schools you don't go to, hospital procedures you will never have, etc. You are a taxpayer, and your taxes go to the places the treasury says they go to. When you stop liking this, you vote for another government. Otherwise, all is swivel-eyed anarchy. Your personal wishes, like mine, are in the main irrelevant. And as for "an appalling politician and person, who inflicted dire consequences on those of us not resident in the South East of England" - that is beyond credibility. But you are entitled to think it. One of the perks of living in the UK!
Humerous Vegetable
09-Apr-13, 17:50
Well well, how can anyone say she was devisive when, even in death, she is bringing the .Org together in a bitchfest.
You are totally right, in that too much time is being spent on this sad individual. I'm away........
Unashamedly pinched from off of the interweb: "Tony Blair says Thatcher death parties are in poor taste. I'm sure the Blair death parties will be much more tasteful."
radiohead
09-Apr-13, 18:27
selling-off of the local authority housing stock in Scotland
And the rest of the UK, resulting in a huge number of well off people who bought their houses for a song. Also as Mr Blair said last night, her Government brought about lots of policies that his Government built on, after all "New Labour" was just old Tory policies rehashed. As with all politicians she was never going to be liked by everyone, and I am sure that when "King Alec" shuffles off this mortal coil, equally as many people will love or hate him for his sucess/failures.
Well, if Flynn's figure of £8 Million is correct, your share will be 8p and what, if anything, does that buy these days? Nothing to break most of our strides, I'm sure, Humerous.
No, I'm more concerned with the threats of the Commies, Trots, Socialists, Anarchists and other such dross, who are threatening to riot and cause as much damage as they can. I wonder how much that will cost us? One thing's for sure, MH won't be affected by any of the moronic behaviour and I suspect she wouldn't have been if it took place whilst she was still alive. Still, their behaviour is following a similar pattern to the 80's rioting, which did absolutely nothing to promote their loathesome ideology, but plenty to assemble the public behind Mrs. T.
I don't care how much it is, I begrudge even a penny of my money paying to stick her in a hole. She was the champion of privatisation, then let her funeral be privatised.
There is only one good thing about her funeral being publicly funded: it will forever be known that she sponged her funeral off the taxpayer.
selling-off of the local authority housing stock in Scotland
And the rest of the UK, resulting in a huge number of well off people who bought their houses for a song.
And an even larger number of people trapped in the clutches of unscrupulous private landlords due to the lack of social housing.
macadamia
09-Apr-13, 18:31
O Mighty Flynn, your cup sure runneth over! Bile tends to turn rancid within its own host. It rarely succeeds in changing peoples' perspectives! How terrible it must be to have to carry this angry little prison around with you.......
When her carcass is paraded through London next week, good luck getting it done without riots:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-22077072
I'm sure the rozzers will put the kettle on
I'm not going to celebrate anyone dying but I certainly won't mourn either. An exceptionally important person in terms of British history even if it was all for the wrong reasons.I have watched the news, and heard all the opinions today, and this one seems to sum up some of the crap I seen. Margaret Thatcher, Bless her, will be highly delighted with the various reactions to her demise, and as she sits on the right hand of her God, she knows she will never be forgotten. If we had someone with her guts today, we would not be in the mess we are in with weak willed politicians in all our UK parliaments and parties. I am watching the polititions destroy the UK, I have watched the Unions destroy our industries, one after the other, Priced out of the markets, she fought them, she saw off the argies in the Falklands, and gave the working man the chance to be a homeowner, among many things. She was not always right in my humble opinion, but what she did, she did with belief and strength. Oh I wish for some of the spirit and belief now. This is not a dig at any opinion, it is just another laymans opinion of some of the crap I have witnessed today.
I have watched the news, and heard all the opinions today, and this one seems to sum up some of the crap I seen. Margaret Thatcher, Bless her, will be highly delighted with the various reactions to her demise, and as she sits on the right hand of her God, she knows she will never be forgotten. If we had someone with her guts today, we would not be in the mess we are in with weak willed politicians in all our UK parliaments and parties. I am watching the polititions destroy the UK, I have watched the Unions destroy our industries, one after the other, Priced out of the markets, she fought them, she saw off the argies in the Falklands, and gave the working man the chance to be a homeowner, among many things. She was not always right in my humble opinion, but what she did, she did with belief and strength. Oh I wish for some of the spirit and belief now. This is not a dig at any opinion, it is just another laymans opinion of some of the crap I have witnessed today.
And it is those, pathalogically refusing to grasp the opportunities she gave us that now have such chips on shoulder and "it's someone elses fault" greet.
Who's Margaret Thatcher http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/d/dunno-628.gif
HV, you are as personally being charged for MT's funeral as you are for roads you never use, schools you don't go to, hospital procedures you will never have, etc. You are a taxpayer, and your taxes go to the places the treasury says they go to. When you stop liking this, you vote for another government. Otherwise, all is swivel-eyed anarchy. Your personal wishes, like mine, are in the main irrelevant. And as for "an appalling politician and person, who inflicted dire consequences on those of us not resident in the South East of England" - that is beyond credibility. But you are entitled to think it. One of the perks of living in the UK!
Difference is roads we don't use, schools we don't attend, hospital procedures we don't have etc..are generally for the benefit of all society, I get the benefits in my area as others do in theirs.
Thatcher's military funeral is nothing like that.....a better analogy would be the Millennium Dome..for London alone, paid for by the whole UK....or the London Sewage system upgrade..for London alone, and paid for by the whole UK. The problem is that there is no English Parliament, which would have meant England had to allocate their 16% allocation from their input to the economy according to their priorities for the whole country...as it is, we in Scotland get less than we pay in....and England, because there is no Parliament with pocket money, gets to raid everybody's input to the economy to pay for their wish list..and gets to borrow, at taxpayer cost, to help finance it.
The funeral is simply an attempt by those who have benefited from her policies in one way or another, ie the likes of politicians, big business, banking, the rich (like Royalty) and maybe some of you posting on here, to try to persuade all of those she shafted with her sharpened broomstick that what she did worked and we have all benefited..which it patently didn't and we haven't.
If we were to give fancy taxpayer funded funerals to deserving PMs...the only one who would have deserved it was Clement Attlee, imo, the UK's greatest PM to date, because he bought the family silver Thatcher and her later clones were able to sell to buy votes and to benefit their pals...and produce our current crappy world. The UK Government, for example, made £5.3bn by selling off British Rail..and today, the subsidy we, the brain dead taxpayers, fork out is about £5.2 billion annually....so we got, in 1996, a one off £5.3 billion ...and that £5.3 billion in our pocket then costs us, in subsidies as taxpayers, about £5.2 billion today and heaven knows how much over the piece...so the point of privatisation was what, exactly? It certainly wasn't about saving the taxpayer money, more about making their pals rich. Maybe that is too simplistic....but how come the everybody takes responsibility for himself is only a principle when applied to the ordinary punter and not to the bosses of ex-public companies who can now make the profits they feel they deserve, to pay themselves the wages and bonuses they erroneously think they have earned, and we subsidise them to do that, even with an average annual £6.2 billion income paid in cash by paying customers added to the subsidy..and into the bargain we also subsidise their, (and the Government's) crap wages.
It is pointless voting for another Government in the UK....and it has been since Thatcher's day....you couldn't, if you tried, get a Rizla between the mindsets of any UK party...and therefore their policies..so whatever we vote in the UK, we will get Tory policies to a large extent.
If we vote for Independence in 2014..then the credit for that has to go to Thatcher...not any PM since her,...not Blair, Brown or even the Coalition...because just in Thatcher's first couple of years in power, Scotland lost 20% of its workforce...and that was before the miner's strike....and then she drove a cart and horses through the Treaty of Union (and not the first breach by a Westminster Parliament) by imposing the Poll Tax on Scotland a year ahead of the rest of the UK.
You can all have a go at rewriting history if you like...but if/when the UK breaks up, that will be Thatcher's real legacy!
I have watched the news, and heard all the opinions today, and this one seems to sum up some of the crap I seen. Margaret Thatcher, Bless her, will be highly delighted with the various reactions to her demise, and as she sits on the right hand of her God, she knows she will never be forgotten. If we had someone with her guts today, we would not be in the mess we are in with weak willed politicians in all our UK parliaments and parties. I am watching the polititions destroy the UK, I have watched the Unions destroy our industries, one after the other, Priced out of the markets, she fought them, she saw off the argies in the Falklands, and gave the working man the chance to be a homeowner, among many things. She was not always right in my humble opinion, but what she did, she did with belief and strength. Oh I wish for some of the spirit and belief now. This is not a dig at any opinion, it is just another laymans opinion of some of the crap I have witnessed today.
The unions didn't destroy British industry, Thatcher did, by her wholesale privatisations. Nearly ALL our industry is now foreign owned, our utilities are foreign owned, our public transport is foreign owned. And Thatcher did that. Go to France and Germany, they still own their industries, utilities, and transport. They also own ours, thanks to Thatcher.
How should we get this Flynn idiot banned? I just don't think he's "like us."
I'm convening a meeting of the clique, on the hidden subforum. 22.00hrs tonight. Agenda as above.
Ah that didn't take long.
As minuted, we'll continue to report his every post, with or without reason.
It's not been nice knowing him!
equusdriving
09-Apr-13, 22:09
Difference is roads we don't use, schools we don't attend, hospital procedures we don't have etc..are generally for the benefit of all society, I get the benefits in my area as others do in theirs.
the Millennium Dome..for London alone, paid for by the whole UK....or the London Sewage system upgrade..for London alone, and paid for by the whole UK.
http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/waste/2012/08/salmond-spends-25000-day-pall-mall-gentlemans-club.html
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/council-workers-wasting-thousands-hours-1781469
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/2671490/Scotlands-wasted-billions-as-drugs-costs-the-nation.html
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/100m-wasted-on-scots-free-bus-scheme.14668058
http://www.supplymanagement.com/news/2012/poor-management-blamed-for-133-million-spend-by-scottish-government/
http://www.zdnet.com/uk/scotland-gets-ready-to-spend-60m-on-tablets-7000007035/
http://www.govopps.co.uk/56m-wasted-in-scottish-court-system-%E2%80%93-audit-scotland/
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/scotland/article1211366.ece
http://action4equalityscotland.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/wasting-public-money.html
and who paid for all this Scottish waste ? oh yeah the same British Tax Payers [disgust]
piratelassie
09-Apr-13, 22:15
There is no longer a Socialist Labour Party in UK politics. That is why the thatcherite policies have not been reversed.
Why would any person of sane mind celebrate the death of an ex politician who last held the PM's post over 20 years ago?the manifesto of current leaders is not her doing.Now I am no politician, Tory or Thatcherite, but as indicated earlier if the Tory policy of her premiership was so terribly wrong , why has no political party since repaired or even began to repair the damage done?
How should we get this Flynn idiot banned? I just don't think he's "like us."I'm convening a meeting of the clique, on the hidden subforum. 22.00hrs tonight. Agenda as above.I dunno, I quite enjoy reading his ramblings.Reminds me a bit of old Comical Ali
The unions didn't destroy British industry, Thatcher did, by her wholesale privatisations. Nearly ALL our industry is now foreign owned, our utilities are foreign owned, our public transport is foreign owned. And Thatcher did that. Go to France and Germany, they still own their industries, utilities, and transport. They also own ours, thanks to Thatcher.
This is nonsense on so many levels.
British industry was destroyed by cheaper competition and higher quality competition. "Industry" succeeds by selling a product, but it is the consumer who chooses what to buy. There's many reasons why Britain couldn't keep the price down - wages being one. There's many reasons why Britain didn't match the quality of the output from other countries, Germany and Japan for example. These problems were manifesting themselves long before Thatcher was voted into power 3 times.
"Foreign owned business"? It makes no little difference to me who "owns" our industry and infrastructure. What matters is getting the services I need at an acceptable price, not being held to ransom. What is a "British" business anyway? Johnny foreigner can buy shares in BP or Rolls-Royce just as easily as I can buy shares in Seimens or Texaco. Profits go to the shareolders, not the country where a company is based.
I admit, in a perfect world, utilities, transport etc would be run by government agencies as "not for profit", thus providing the service required at less cost to the public. But this isn't a perfect world, and it has been proved time and time again that nationalised industries cannot compete. They cost more and become less efficient. Why? - Many reasons, plenty of room for blame, but the fact is NONE of the major political parties want to re-nationalise these services. Why? - They all know it doesn't work.
Thatcher might be seen as being the evil one who did the dirty work, but the fact is the lack of effort shown by the opposition to reverse her policies is evidence that they acknowledge the dirty work needed doing.
This is nonsense on so many levels.
British industry was destroyed by cheaper competition and higher quality competition. "Industry" succeeds by selling a product, but it is the consumer who chooses what to buy. There's many reasons why Britain couldn't keep the price down - wages being one. There's many reasons why Britain didn't match the quality of the output from other countries, Germany and Japan for example. These problems were manifesting themselves long before Thatcher was voted into power 3 times.
"Foreign owned business"? It makes no little difference to me who "owns" our industry and infrastructure. What matters is getting the services I need at an acceptable price, not being held to ransom. What is a "British" business anyway? Johnny foreigner can buy shares in BP or Rolls-Royce just as easily as I can buy shares in Seimens or Texaco. Profits go to the shareolders, not the country where a company is based.
I admit, in a perfect world, utilities, transport etc would be run by government agencies as "not for profit", thus providing the service required at less cost to the public. But this isn't a perfect world, and it has been proved time and time again that nationalised industries cannot compete. They cost more and become less efficient. Why? - Many reasons, plenty of room for blame, but the fact is NONE of the major political parties want to re-nationalise these services. Why? - They all know it doesn't work.
Thatcher might be seen as being the evil one who did the dirty work, but the fact is the lack of effort shown by the opposition to reverse her policies is evidence that they acknowledge the dirty work needed doing.
Name one utility, just one, that is cheaper for the consumer since they were privatised.
Rail is the most expensive almost anywhere. It costs more for a rail ticket from London to Edinburgh than it costs to fly to New York. Our railways are now mostly owned by the German state rail company. Our energy companies by the French. Profits from those foreign owned companies flow out of the country.
Ahh! I feel a quote coming on. "Socialism is fine until you run out of other people's money"
Name one utility, just one, that is cheaper for the consumer since they were privatised.
Rail is the most expensive almost anywhere. It costs more for a rail ticket from London to Edinburgh than it costs to fly to New York. Our railways are now mostly owned by the German state rail company. Our energy companies by the French. Profits from those foreign owned companies flow out of the country.
Bus travel for Senior citizens is a lot cheaper these days [lol]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVWc8YwGYe0
Bus travel for Senior citizens is a lot cheaper these days [lol] Buses aren't a utility. Gas, electricity, water are utilities.
Buses aren't a utility. Gas, electricity, water are utilities.
Neither is rail travel yet you brought that subject into play
Buses aren't a utility. Gas, electricity, water are utilities.
I pay for water combined with my (very reasonable) poll tax. In fact, I don't recall getting a bill for years.
Name one utility, just one, that is cheaper for the consumer since they were privatised.
You cannot blame privatisation on the rising price of utilities. The price of the resources that make our electricity, for example, are based upon global markets over which we have very little control. Gas and oil, as raw resources, are so much higher than 30 years ago.
Public transport? I have no doubt that is much more expensive than before, but again there's more than one reason for this, it's not all privatisation. Historic lack of investment (when state owned) is one.
But, in real response to your question, I would argue that the "cost to the consumer" is not about the price of a railway ticket. It is about the cost to the country as a whole. As a higher rate taxpayer, I would rather pay £10 for a ticket that used to cost £5, than still pay £5 and see my tax money ploughed into inefficent public owned companies being held to ransom by the unions.
How many years were labour in power after Thatcher without trying to change her policies? Their inaction tells the story............
Neither is rail travel yet you brought that subject into play
Two separate sentences. One a request, the other a statement. Do keep up.
You cannot blame privatisation on the rising price of utilities. The price of the resources that make our electricity, for example, are based upon global markets over which we have very little control. Gas and oil, as raw resources, are so much higher than 30 years ago.
Public transport? I have no doubt that is much more expensive than before, but again there's more than one reason for this, it's not all privatisation. Historic lack of investment (when state owned) is one.
But, in real response to your question, I would argue that the "cost to the consumer" is not about the price of a railway ticket. It is about the cost to the country as a whole. As a higher rate taxpayer, I would rather pay £10 for a ticket that used to cost £5, than still pay £5 and see my tax money ploughed into inefficent public owned companies being held to ransom by the unions.
How many years were labour in power after Thatcher without trying to change her policies? Their inaction tells the story............
Your tax money IS still ploughed into the railways. In fact the railways are more heavily subsidised by the taxpayer now than they ever were when they were state run.
whats the cost of a Prescription these days Flynn?? I am sure they cost less now, but I am owld and slow so you tell me, you may need to remind me.
The unions didn't destroy British industry, Thatcher did, by her wholesale privatisations. Nearly ALL our industry is now foreign owned, our utilities are foreign owned, our public transport is foreign owned. And Thatcher did that. Go to France and Germany, they still own their industries, utilities, and transport. They also own ours, thanks to Thatcher. She will be pleased you credit her with this. I am old enough to have witnessed the likes of Red Robbo, and Scargil and co destroy their industries by Strike after strike for more and more pay for less and less work. Nationalised industries used 25 union members to do in a week, a job that one man could do in a day. I was there, I did not like it then, and I would'nt like it now. As i said before Margaret Thatcher will not be forgotten - like her or loathe her - She was a mountain of belief and strength until sold down the river by a bunch of wimps.
whats the cost of a Prescription these days Flynn?? I am sure they cost less now, but I am owld and slow so you tell me, you may need to remind me.
Prescriptions are not a utility. In England they are now about £7.60 an item I believe, in Scotland I understand prescriptions are a state benefit subsidised by the taxpayer and therefore 'free'.
Your tax money IS still ploughed into the railways. In fact the railways are more heavily subsidised by the taxpayer now than they ever were when they were state run. If they are State run, they are payed for by the State - I wonder who pays the State, could it be the tax payers by chance??????????????
Your tax money IS still ploughed into the railways. In fact the railways are more heavily subsidised by the taxpayer now than they ever were when they were state run.
Indeed it is. As it SHOULD be. Because a railway service is needed by the country as a basic element of infrastructure.
But the difference is that subsidy (and therefore cost) is being spent on maintenance and upgrades. Necessary expenditure. It is not being spent on ridiculously inflated wages, terms and conditions, a 2 man/1 job culture or massive final salary pension schemes that taxpayers in the private sector can only dream of.
Believe it or not, I've got no alliance with any political party. I haven't voted the same way twice in a row and I've probably missed more elections than I've voted in. But I've got more than one personal experience that has convinced me that the nationalised business and trade union models simply do not work. That's personal experience, not blinded by childhood indorctrination or political stance.
The fact that nobody has tried to change Thatcher's policies is evidence to me that, although perhaps unpopular, the were necessary. It's been 23 years since she was in power.
She will be pleased you credit her with this. I am old enough to have witnessed the likes of Red Robbo, and Scargil and co destroy their industries by Strike after strike for more and more pay for less and less work. Nationalised industries used 25 union members to do in a week, a job that one man could do in a day.
That, among others, is my personal experience.
And history has proven it true.
British industry was helped towards ruin by a union mentality. Not the only reason, but a significant one.
If they are State run, they are payed for by the State - I wonder who pays the State, could it be the tax payers by chance??????????????
'theone' said; "I would rather pay £10 for a ticket that used to cost £5, than still pay £5 and see my tax money ploughed into inefficent public owned companies" in relation to the cost of rail tickets. I pointed out that even though they are now privatised the railways are now more heavily subsidised by the taxpayer than they were when they were state owned. The point being that when they were state owned all profit was ploughed back into the railways, so they were mostly self-funding and requiring less subsidy. Now they are privately owned only a percentage of profit goes back into the rail companies, the rest going to shareholders and owners, and government subsidy for the rail companies is now almost four times what it was before privatisation.
Do keep up.
Indeed it is. As it SHOULD be. Because a railway service is needed by the country as a basic element of infrastructure.
But the difference is that subsidy (and therefore cost) is being spent on maintenance and upgrades. Necessary expenditure. It is not being spent on ridiculously inflated wages, terms and conditions, a 2 man/1 job culture or massive final salary pension schemes that taxpayers in the private sector can only dream of.
Believe it or not, I've got no alliance with any political party. I haven't voted the same way twice in a row and I've probably missed more elections than I've voted in. But I've got more than one personal experience that has convinced me that the nationalised business and trade union models simply do not work. That's personal experience, not blinded by childhood indorctrination or political stance.
The fact that nobody has tried to change Thatcher's policies is evidence to me that, although perhaps unpopular, the were necessary. It's been 23 years since she was in power.
That's odd because the rail companies keep telling us their above inflation fare increases every year are to cover investment in network improvements. Yet they still take a bigger subsidy from government than British Rail ever did.
I used the rail network for twenty years before privatisation. They were cheaper and easier to use than now. You could go to any station and buy a ticket to any station. You knew how much it would cost.
Now it's like buying airline tickets, there are hidden fares, differently priced fares for the same journey, and fares are extortionately high.
'theone' said; "I would rather pay £10 for a ticket that used to cost £5, than still pay £5 and see my tax money ploughed into inefficent public owned companies" in relation to the cost of rail tickets. I pointed out that even though they are now privatised the railways are now more heavily subsidised by the taxpayer than they were when they were state owned. The point being that when they were state owned all profit was ploughed back into the railways, so they were mostly self-funding and requiring less subsidy. Now they are privately owned only a percentage of profit goes back into the rail companies, the rest going to shareholders and owners, and government subsidy for the rail companies is now almost four times what it was before privatisation.
NO NO NO!
The profit was NOT ploughed back into the railways. It was ploughed into the pockets of workers who demanded 2 or 3 times the realistic wage for what they were doing, taking liberties because of the protection being a government employee allowed.
They were NEVER self funding. They went for years without the required investment, maintenance, upgrades etc, hence why so much money needs to be spent now.
That's odd because the rail companies keep telling us their above inflation fare increases every year are to cover investment in network improvements. Yet they still take a bigger subsidy from government than British Rail ever did.
I've offered reaons for this elsewhere in this thread.
I used the rail network for twenty years before privatisation. They were cheaper and easier to use than now. You could go to any station and buy a ticket to any station. You knew how much it would cost.
Now it's like buying airline tickets, there are hidden fares, differently priced fares for the same journey, and fares are extortionately high.
I agree that the pricing system is confusing, but we can't blame that on Thatcher. Can we?
As for "extortionately high", fair enough, the face value is up, but as highlighted above, the real "cost" is now being paid. There's no such thing as "free money" and whether the rail users pays, or the taxpayer subsides him, someone pays.
http://fullfact.org/factchecks/taxpayer_subsidy_train_network_nationalisation-3391
You cannot blame privatisation on the rising price of utilities. The price of the resources that make our electricity, for example, are based upon global markets over which we have very little control. Gas and oil, as raw resources, are so much higher than 30 years ago............
30 years ago we had access to plenty of coal, a commodity that at the time was not profitable enough compared to the relative cheapness of oil & gas.....
If all the mines were not closed & decommissioned then now that oil & gas are needing to be imported at great expense all that coal would be a handy thing to have....
It's called having an insurance policy against a possible future energy crisis (what we are having right now).
http://fullfact.org/factchecks/taxpayer_subsidy_train_network_nationalisation-3391
Very good.
It seems to prove my argument is true.
Subsidy has increased to fund the required investment that was lacking in the past. But this should reduce once the spending on the railtrack collapse is complete.
This has been fun but now I must leave, I have an early start and long drive tomorrow.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the number one in the music charts (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-ding-dong-1821155) next week. I'll now leave you all to your apoplexy. ;)
Very good.
It seems to prove my argument is true.
Subsidy has increased to fund the required investment that was lacking in the past. But this should reduce once the spending on the railtrack collapse is complete.
'May' have increased is what it says. The reason is not conclusive.
And goodnight. ;)
30 years ago we had access to plenty of coal, a commodity that at the time was not profitable enough compared to the relative cheapness of oil & gas.....
If all the mines were not closed & decommissioned then now that oil & gas are needing to be imported at great expense all that coal would be a handy thing to have....
It's called having an insurance policy against a possible future energy crisis (what we are having right now).
The good thing about fossil fuel resources is that they don't disappear with new governments.
The mines may well be shut down. If they weren't, then in that 30 years would have used the coal, now that they have been, we still have it. Catch 22. I have no doubt we'll be back to coal as a nation before too long. But using miner's who get remunerated and compensated like the rest of us.
The fact is, although we are an oil producing nation, we consume more oil than we produce. We are therefore reliant on imports from foreign, unsecure sources. Not a nice position, but would we rather have been on 3 day weeks, without electricity as the unions held us to ransom during the miners strikes?
'May' have increased is what it says. The reason is not conclusive.
And goodnight. ;)
Haha!
So you post a link in support of your argument and then doubt it's validity?
Never fear.
Safe drive tomorrow.
manloveswife
09-Apr-13, 23:56
NO NO NO!
The profit was NOT ploughed back into the railways. It was ploughed into the pockets of workers who demanded 2 or 3 times the realistic wage for what they were doing, taking liberties because of the protection being a government employee allowed.
They were NEVER self funding. They went for years without the required investment, maintenance, upgrades etc, hence why so much money needs to be spent now.
Sorry but thats shows a complete ignorance of reality, as a rail worker (now ex) under both BR and Privatised IMU's working on bridges, stations, tunnels etc, I can tell you the wage of a tradesman under BR was just a few pence more than the level at which you could get state help for low earnings, never mind 2 to 3 three time a reasonable wage for the job.
Under privatisation it rose by about 50%, still I believe the old privatised railway that provided more jobs for the same labour cost was better for the country and employment.
You go on to state
"
Very good.
It seems to prove my argument is true.
Subsidy has increased to fund the required investment that was lacking in the past. But this should reduce once the spending on the railtrack collapse is complete."
The railtrack collapse was the collapse of a privatised company, this privatised company came in and took a maintenance holiday to the degree it was scary looking at the infrastructure while walking the line, bad rails, fish plates with missing bolts, bridges with brickwork held in place with wooden wedges, and they also raked in money through asset stripping by selling all the stations land / buildings they could get away with.
That had to end badly, and it did, but that was the privatised railway and not the old nationalised one, that is the bill we are paying now, along with the cost of all the private companies who came in to maintain the Railways while there was a quick pound to be made.
Sorry but thats shows a complete ignorance of reality, as a rail worker (now ex) under both BR and Privatised IMU's working on bridges, stations, tunnels etc, I can tell you the wage of a tradesman under BR was just a few pence more than the level at which you could get state help for low earnings, never mind 2 to 3 three time a reasonable wage for the job...................
I'm sure that's true, and although I may well be ignorant of the specifics in the rail system I believe I've seen enough, from personal experience, of the inherent, if not specfic, problems of state businesses.
There'll be many people here in Caithness (Nuclear) who will relate to this. Over many years the union power and mentality demanded the same wage rise (percentage) across the board - all grades of work. "All for one and one for all". I can understand the sentiment, it sounds okay.
But the fact is, after 5, 10 or 20 years, the amount of funding into the system cannot meet these demands.
To keep up, or compete with the private sector, the public sector has to pay its skilled employees (for example the tradesmen you mention) the "going rate". If they don't, the tradesmen leave to other industries, or maybe develop a poor working attitude with their employers that results in less effort and productivity.
There's a finite pot of money, and if unskilled or semi skilled workers are getting huge wages, the skilled workers wages must be reduced.
When the rail system was privatised, the tradesmens wages shot up. Of course they would, because they had been underpayed due to the lower grades being overpayed. All out of the same pot. Supply and demand. Skilled trades people are needed and so should demand higher wages.
There's a fine line between unionism and communism. If you're willing to reward the unskilled (or those lacking effort and ability) at the same rate as the skilled (and those putting in extra, required effort) then suddenly the incentive to try and achieve is lost.
Ignorant of individual sitations I may well be. Blinkered to reasonable logic I am not.
http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/waste/2012/08/salmond-spends-25000-day-pall-mall-gentlemans-club.html
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/council-workers-wasting-thousands-hours-1781469
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/2671490/Scotlands-wasted-billions-as-drugs-costs-the-nation.html
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/100m-wasted-on-scots-free-bus-scheme.14668058
http://www.supplymanagement.com/news/2012/poor-management-blamed-for-133-million-spend-by-scottish-government/
http://www.zdnet.com/uk/scotland-gets-ready-to-spend-60m-on-tablets-7000007035/
http://www.govopps.co.uk/56m-wasted-in-scottish-court-system-–-audit-scotland/
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/scotland/article1211366.ece
http://action4equalityscotland.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/wasting-public-money.html
and who paid for all this Scottish waste ? oh yeah the same British Tax Payers [disgust]
Erm....no......the Scottish taxpayer out of the income we send to London........or at least the 16% of it we get back to pay for those issues which have been devolved..........or are you not aware that all of the above is paid for by the block grant?
Of course..we also pay on top, from the 84% of our input the Treasury keeps, our share of the wastage illustrated below and likely a lot more......if I could be bothered to search it out
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2041280/How-longer-taxpayers-tolerate-government-wasting-money.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9153956/Govenment-credit-cards-could-be-scrapped-after-National-Audit-Office-found-widespread-abuse.html
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9153956/Govenment-credit-cards-could-be-scrapped-after-National-Audit-Office-found-widespread-abuse.html)
RagnarRocks
10-Apr-13, 07:49
I assume by his ramblimgs that Flynn lives in a council owned property and works in the public sector and refuses point blank to embrace any form of capitalism which of course means he wouldn't be driving anywhere today but using public transport as a show of solidarity for his brothers. I mean house and car ownership are very capitalist principles same as working in the private sector, think im beginning to understand how such rank hypocrisy may leave one a little bitter.
Huge increases in poverty, inequality, millions thrown out of work, complicit genocides abroad, viciously anti-gay and anti-rights, a ruined economy-Margaret Thatcher's real Legacy (http://www.salon.com/2013/04/09/the_woman_who_wrecked_great_britain/)
Interesting article, it just missed out her racism. She called Mandela "a grubby little terrorist" and then there's this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22087702
M Swanson
10-Apr-13, 08:35
Ah! Right! So Nelson Mandela wasn't found guilty of terrorism? I wonder why he confessed to it then?
M Swanson
10-Apr-13, 09:04
I know one of the issues people often condemn Margaret Hilda for, is her decision to defend British citizens in the Falkland Islands who were invaded by a Fascist dictatorship. I know the vast majority of our people supported this action and I remember waving off the lads as they sailed from Portsmouth Harbour. Anyway, I've Googled the thoughts and beliefs of many servicemen who risked all for this country and MH. Perhaps you may like to read an abridged account by just one soldier, but there's many more from others if you search.
"Margaret Hilda Thatcher sent us to war, a just war. She wasn't perfect and she made mistakes, over the Poll Tax, her dealings with the EU, mind you she's been proven right about the Euro. MHT was my old boss, my hero, my mentor and I am hugely proud to have known her. I sit here holding a small whisky in her honour, with a tear in my eye. She was a lion in defence of this country. She wasn't really a right wing capitalist, she was an old-fashioned moralist. Right and wrong, good, or bad.
RIP Baroness, the class of 82 will never forget you. Rest easy, duty done."
This was not written by an armchair General. It was by a brave man, who loved his country and its leader. Measure this man against the current batch of punks who are roaming the streets, hell-bent on destruction. Measure MHT against the creature who sent us to war on a lie, which claimed the lives of thousands. Then decide for yourself, who own the truly evil politics and where your future lies with them.
M Swanson
10-Apr-13, 09:09
Haha!
So you post a link in support of your argument and then doubt it's validity?
Never fear.
Safe drive tomorrow.
You little belter, TheOne. I'm afraid poor old Flynn is no match for you. :lol: But for some unknown reason, I can't help but be fond of the old reprobate! :D
Safe journey home, Flynn.
And another: (and the vegetables?) "They'll have the same"
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