View Full Version : counterproductive and barbaric practice
The killing of foxes and hanging them up like some kind of trophy is an act of sheer cruelty and ignorance .
After witnessing that this barbaric and despicable execution and "hanging" of foxes is still happening nowadays in Caithness and Sutherland ,I found a previously posted article over the issue that I would like to expose again.
"Most people have forgotten how to live with living creatures, with living systems and that, in turn, is the reason why man, whenever he comes into contact with nature, threatens to kill the natural system in which and from which he lives." - Konrad Lorenz, Naturalist
Do We Persecute Foxes Unfairly?
Malcolm Smith
Foxes are vermin. They can be killed legally by shooting, hunting with dogs, cage trapping and by gassing their earths. These, and maybe other illegal methods of killing them, account for the estimated 80,000 or so foxes slaughtered in Britain every year. In 1951, a Ministry of Agriculture bulletin (Wild Mammals and the Land) concluded its section on the fox with the battle cry, "War on the fox must continue to be the order of the day and such warfare must be carried on by every means and with every weapon that Is both practicable and humane."
Little has changed in the 1980s. Few country people have kindly regard for the mammal that Archibald Thorburn, the naturalist and illustrator, regarded as "by far the most intelligent and cunning of all our beasts" and the one about which "endless tales hove been told of the wiles and subterfuges employed to escape its enemies or circumvent its prey" . Perhaps farmers and shepherds who rear sheep have the least regard for these virtues; they blame foxes for heavy losses of lambs throughout much of Britain. This accusation alone accounts for a large proportion of the foxes killed, the intention being to reduce their populations. But not only has this objective not been realised (foxes are increasing in numbers) but also the presumed heavy losses of lambs to foxes are not borne out by the facts.
Foxes are not strict carnivores - they also eat fruit and berries - and of the around 500g of food which each adult requires per day, small mammals (voles in particular) are often the main item of diet. But foxes are catholic in their taste, taking rabbits, rats, mice, birds, frogs, insects, sheep and deer carrion, and scavenging on sheep and cattle afterbirths or in domestic refuse.
In areas where sheep are traditionally reared, according to Dr. Raymond Hewson of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland, who has long studied foxes, and especially their diet, foxes kill somewhere between 1 and 4 per cent of lambs. Considering that on the bleak Argyll hills, where Hewson made his studies, up to half of each year's lambs die before they reach maturity - mainly due to uncomplicated starvation during the first day of their lives - the proportion killed by foxes is almost insignificant. In an Australian study, 14 out of 314 deaths of newly born lambs were found to be due to predation by foxes. Actual lamb losses resulting from fox predation in other important sheep-rearing areas - such as the Welsh uplands - may be lower still because of the abundance of alternative prey, such as hares and rabbits, which are scarce on many Scottish hills.
Hewson and his colleagues find that sheep carrion forms a major item in 36 per cent, sometimes more, of fox droppings during the winter months when there is an abundant supply of dead animals. Outside the winter period, sheep carrion is not an important food.
Although in Scotland something like 9000 foxes are killed annually, human control is considered to be ineffective in limiting their population. Ecologist and naturalist well know that the reason is probably that such control Is replacing, rather than augmenting, natural death: the weakest fall victim to man. Locally there may be an appreciable reduction in the number of breeding pairs but this is often compensated, by a higher rate of survival of cubs. If there were a rabies outbreak, any attempt to reduce fox populations to a low level to curtail the spread of the disease would require an enormous expenditure of money and effort.
Most farmers are unwilling to accept that foxes kill few lambs; they frequently attribute increases in fox populations in the face of substantial human persecution to other factors. One often hears blamed the abundance of conifer plantations; they are assumed to harbour large numbers of foxes which prey on lambs on adjacent open hill land or pastures. Hewson's studies show this assumption to be wrong. In a survey of an area of large conifer forests and open hill land In Argyll, the foxes that lived in the forest mostly ate red deer carrion and field voles, whereas the foxes that lived on the open hills mostly ate sheep carrion and field voles. If foxes were merely harbouring in forests and seeking prey on the open hill, their diets would have been the some as those living on open hill land. Some evidence suggested that foxes living on the open hill may hunt partly In conifer plantations because of the abundance of small rodents. With small blocks of conifer plantation, things may not be as clear cut because foxes may then have to feed partly on the open hill because the forest would be incapable of supplying them with a full diet.
The praises of foxes are sung but rarely! The Scottish naturalist James Locke estimated that one fox will eat a thousand field voles in the winter months and each vole consumes 23 pounds of grass - a fair quantity If your livelihood depends on sheep rearing. The Bulgarian zoologist Atanassov examined the stomachs of 201 foxes and hundreds of droppings. He found remains of small rodents in 194 stomachs, and in these they constituted about half the food consumed. Another study concluded that the diet of foxes, consisted of 57 per cent agriculturally harmful animals, 27 agriculturally useful animals, and 16 per cent vegetable food.
The fox is undoubtedly a highly adaptable creature - witness its success in colonising many suburban and urban areas (the city of Bristol has over 200 family groups) in recent decades. On the open hills and upland pastures of Britain where sheep-rearing is a major land use, foxes have exploited the abundant supply of sheep carrion, especially during difficult winter months. Perhaps it is not surprising that farmers have assumed that foxes kill large numbers of lambs. But if farmers and other landowners were presented with, and showed willing to accept, the scientific facts they might come to see the continuing persecution of foxes as unnecessary. The relentless slaughter of large numbers of such fine creatures should not be based on a wrong assumption.
(Reprinted from the New Scientist No 1400, 8 March 1984)
Metalattakk
29-Nov-11, 02:03
But, will no-one think of the poor fluffy cuddly foxy-woxies?
My arse.
Luckily we do not have foxes on the Western Isles and hopefully the idiots who keep trying to bring them onto the island will realise - they are not native in the Western Isles.
We manage very very well without this animal.
Life is barbaric full stop, if you dont like it stay in towns.
Onc the fox is shot, does it really mak any diffrence where it is hung or buried?
The fox has no concince about killing and eating lambs or chickens which is peoples livings
You could prove without a shadow of a doubt that Foxes or Badgers did no harm only good and you wouldn't stop the persicution. Farmers don't like to share their land. And blaming foxes for a miriad of woes is traditional innit?
Life is barbaric full stop, if you dont like it stay in towns.
Onc the fox is shot, does it really mak any diffrence where it is hung or buried?
The fox has no concince about killing and eating lambs or chickens which is peoples livings
Only because people make it so.
What do you mean, barbaric?
If so then nature itself is based on killing
Only because people make it so.
No animal kills for pleasure then hangs up its trophys for all to see.
Who says it was killed for pleasure, as I said earlier foxes are killed by/for farmers to stop them killing the livestock.
I have seen cats and dogs kill animals just for the hell of it.
I dont know why they hang them up but I dont see how it matters either way. I do try to keep my little ones eyes away from the hanging ones.
Out of interest where were they seen hanging, I seen two side by side last week looked almost like they got caught on the barb whilst jumping the fence.
I'm no expert on the ways of the countryside, but I do know farmers.
And I do know that getting a pound out of a farmer is like getting blood from a stone.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if a farmer is paying someone to shoot foxes on their land, it must be value for money.
As a farm is a business, I can only conclude killing foxes is necessary.
You could prove without a shadow of a doubt that Foxes or Badgers did no harm only good and you wouldn't stop the persicution. Farmers don't like to share their land. And blaming foxes for a miriad of woes is traditional innit?
What would you do if you witnessed foxes making off with your way of making ends meet?
Stand by the fence singing the circle of life or blow its brains out?
Hanging Foxes -This is a throwback to Victorian times, when gamekeepers hung the animals they killed on a gibbet to show their employers how well they were doing their job. It is also sometimes done to show neighbours how they treat any fox that appears on their land.
Makes sense to me.
Life is barbaric full stop, if you dont like it stay in towns.
Onc the fox is shot, does it really mak any diffrence where it is hung or buried?
The fox has no concince about killing and eating lambs or chickens which is peoples livings
Is your understanding so limited?
..so,just as tiny part evidence that you obviously ignored the text.There are many that need to be re-educated : "The relentless slaughter of large numbers of such fine creatures should not be based on a wrong assumption."
".. the proportion killed by foxes is almost insignificant."
Besides,foxes feed on carrion that of sheep included ,cleaning up for diseases that could be spread through dead sheep left exposed to other sheep , cattle and even humans .
There are other benefits to the sheep rearing ,(had you have read it!):
"..one fox will eat a thousand field voles in the winter months and each vole consumes 23 pounds of grass - a fair quantity If your livelihood depends on sheep rearing."
Certainly not for the pleasure of doing so,or for some kind of pagan tradition or "sport" or money,,that is precisely only in barbaric human terms!
In nature it is a matter of balance and survival.
Cheers!
You are right there! It's a matter of education and doing so to some stone-heads is really, really, really hard!
Is your understanding so limited?
..so,just as tiny part evidence that you obviously ignored the text.There are many that need to be re-educated : "The relentless slaughter of large numbers of such fine creatures should not be based on a wrong assumption."."
One persons fine creature is anothers scum of the earth
".. the proportion killed by foxes is almost insignificant."
I dont know about you but I was brought up on a farm and in my experience you get a a fox that takes a lamb and then each and every night that same fox will return to take another lamb untill you either A) move your stock elsewhere or B)Blow its brains out.
Besides,foxes feed on carrion that of sheep included ,cleaning up for diseases that could be spread through dead sheep left exposed to other sheep , cattle and even humans .."
Again I dont know of other farmers but in my experience we bury our dead sheep and do not leave the carcass to rot.
"..one fox will eat a thousand field voles in the winter months and each vole consumes 23 pounds of grass - a fair quantity If your livelihood depends on sheep rearing."
To be fair I would rather have a vole eating a wee bit of gras than a fox eating my stock, I have never once heard or seen my Father complain about those bloody voles then get his gun and go out killing them.
When the fields get a bit are in the dead of winter we chuck the sheep a drop of hay and some feed to keep them going.
Me thinks we have a Troll
Who exactly are you refering to?
The OP rasied a topic regardign the killing of foxes on an internet forum based in a rural area which is made up of a huge number of farming folk.
What response was expected, hugs and kisses for the bread and butter killing vermin? I think not.
Life is barbaric full stop, if you dont like it stay in towns.
Onc the fox is shot, does it really mak any diffrence where it is hung or buried?
The fox has no concince about killing and eating lambs or chickens which is peoples livings
Not really one who would go all out to kill any living creature and understanding that survival of wildlife must be allowed to continue without (as much as humanely possible) culling, taking place, I am now learning the heartbreak of losing one's own livestock to predators, be they ground beasts or great big flying ones.
In this last year (and all through the summer months) we have lost no less than forty hens, and three geese, in this past week we have lost another goose, a duck and several very young chicks,
when? therefore, can the farmer call it a day for the wildlife surrounding his farm.
One persons fine creature is anothers scum of the earth
I dont know about you but I was brought up on a farm and in my experience you get a a fox that takes a lamb and then each and every night that same fox will return to take another lamb untill you either A) move your stock elsewhere or B)Blow its brains out.
Again I dont know of other farmers but in my experience we bury our dead sheep and do not leave the carcass to rot.
To be fair I would rather have a vole eating a wee bit of gras than a fox eating my stock, I have never once heard or seen my Father complain about those bloody voles then get his gun and go out killing them.
When the fields get a bit are in the dead of winter we chuck the sheep a drop of hay and some feed to keep them going.
<One persons fine creature is anothers scum of the earth>
..yes ,precisely because of ignorance and prejudices.
<I dont know about you but I was brought up on a farm and in my experience you get a a fox that takes a lamb and then each and every night that same fox will return to take another lamb untill you either..>
Obviously you know more than scientist and professionals studying the species as you claim events that never been documented.Wonder if it wasn't a 2-legged "creature there steeling the lamb!
<Again I dont know of other farmers but in my experience we bury our dead sheep and do not leave the carcass to rot.>
Good for you and surely in controlled pastures it might happen ,but reality is that most dead sheep of the mainly extensive farming methods in our area, are not buried certainly not right away if at all.
<To be fair I would rather have a vole eating a wee bit of gras than a fox eating my stock, I have never once heard or seen my Father complain about those bloody voles then get his gun and go out killing them.
When the fields get a bit are in the dead of winter we chuck the sheep a drop of hay and some feed to keep them going. >
If you go back to accounting what you claim to be " a wee bit" you might dimension the benefits/loss circumstances of what you find unimportant and hopefully your father would be more sensible than that you say he would be if...
"Of all the creatures, man is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he's the one that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain. The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot."
<..yes ,precisely because of ignorance and prejudices.>
No because of the damage to his income.
Obviously you know more than scientist and professionals studying the species as you claim events that never been documented.Wonder if it wasn't a 2-legged "creature there steeling the lamb!
You may have noticed that I am no boffin but I do have a few years experience in the situation and know what I have seen. Are you suggesting that there is some beastly charicter in Caithness that catches lambs and then half eats them whilst leaving the remains in the park? a bit far fetched in my opinion.
Good for you and surely in controlled pastures it might happen ,but reality is that most dead sheep of the mainly extensive farming methods in our area, are not buried certainly not right away if at all.
I think you will find that Caithness consists mainly of controlled pasture. Away and post your tripe on Sutherland.org if you are after hill farmers.
If you go back to accounting what you claim to be " a wee bit" you might dimension the benefits/loss circumstances of what you find unimportant and hopefully your father would be more sensible than that you say he would be if...
As I say I have never heard of my Father or any farmer complaining of the voles, I have heard many complain of the foxes, I have never see a vole dragging a lamb through the fields either.Out of interest ClaudiaH what is your background?
Do you reside in these parts?
What is your opinion on the Lola and Isabella Koupparis situation in London?
Me thinks we have a Troll
I think you're right.
I will get you some at the weekend, there are two hanging on the fence down the road from me.
How barbaric, any pics?Why do you want pictures Rheghead, surely you had enough of them when you started this thread back in Jan 2010?:
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?97109-A-rather-undignified-end-for-a-fox.-(Not-for-the-Squeamish)&highlight=foxes
Metalattakk
29-Nov-11, 16:59
I will get you some at the weekend, there are two hanging on the fence down the road from me.
Cool. Can you get some photos with the blood still dripping, or a good one of bulging, lifeless eyes and a lolling tongue? The more graphic the better. ;)
Oh, and when you post them up, make sure you use a really, really big font to describe them, as that makes your words more important.
They have been hanging there for a couple of weeks so I reckon they will have bled out by now, or it will be congealed.
The eyes were not bulging either and the tongue was still in the head.
I will use a massive font though.
I think I may title the pictures
"NOT SO CUNNING NOW ARE YOU"
Whats with all the big Fonts?
C3.....:roll::roll:
Thought this thread was going to be about the Jobcentre with a title like that.
Croftergirl
29-Nov-11, 17:59
hmmmm, dont get me started on foxes!!
i agree 100% wi Mi16, and I think you have said everythin that needs to be said on the matter.
If you dont like the ways o the countryside, dont come into it.
They have been hanging there for a couple of weeks so I reckon they will have bled out by now, or it will be congealed.
The eyes were not bulging either and the tongue was still in the head.
I will use a massive font though.
I think I may title the pictures
"NOT SO CUNNING NOW ARE YOU"
Neither are you!
http://www.1cor.com/1315/?form_1155.replyids=990
porshiepoo
29-Nov-11, 19:02
What would you do if you witnessed foxes making off with your way of making ends meet?
Stand by the fence singing the circle of life or blow its brains out?
Hahaha. Me personally I would sing 'The circle of life'.
I know it's a tad different for me as I am not a farmer and my livelihood does not depend on sheep production however I have had a number of Chicken (who supply me fresh eggs) taken by the fox and my attitude is 'such as life'.
Don't get me wrong I loved those chicken (as much as anyone can love a chicken anyhoo) but the way I see it is that the fox is simply doing what comes naturally and is killing to survive or raise young (who will all no doubt grow up to become the new generation of local chicken stalkers).
These foxes seem to be getting braver and more cunning too. The last couple of chickens killed by the fox were taken in broad daylight with me just round the corner of the shed and with all our dogs loose (no it wasn't the dogs lol, different field).
I was gutted when first Pickles then Creamy and then Pepper were dragged off for pup meat but it is what it is!
I can almost guarantee that a far worse killer of sheep or lambs than a Fox is Rooks. The local farmer has told me some real nasty stories of what the local Rooks do to his flock and it's far worse than the odd one a fox takes.
I do understand a farmers inclination to shoot on sight when protecting livestock. I don't agree with it but I can at least understand why they do it. The stringing up of dead carcasses though is barbaric and is a scene that no child should have to see, it's quite sickening!
Plus there is no proof whatsoever that it deters other Fox from the area (that's what I've been told is the reason for stringing them up). You'll note that birds do not feed on Fox carcass usually but it certainly doesn't deter the next Mr Fox from ambling along and eyeing up the feast that's put on the table before them.
The thought that crosses my mind, is that if you can't farm in harmony with the local flora and fauna, then you are either doing it wrong or in the wrong place. No other industry is so overtly destructive. They would never get away with it.
The thought that crosses my mind, is that if you can't farm in harmony with the local flora and fauna, then you are either doing it wrong or in the wrong place. No other industry is so overtly destructive. They would never get away with it.
No farms, no food
Unless you would like to catch / grow your own that is
No farms, no food
Unless you would like to catch / grow your own that is
Do you actually read the posts that you quote? There is not much evidence that you do.
Lost interest because of the huge fonts - didn't read any of that...
Wrong place to post a thread like this - rural farming community. Troll methinks
Edit - rather than condemning someone for doing something wrong (in your opinion), you could try offering an alternative solution. 1) you are more likely to persuade people 2) you are less likely to turn people off 3) you might actually make a worthwhile change than just moaning about it
You suggested that farming is so destructive that in any other industry it would not be tolerated.
I stated that if you dont have farms you dont have food.
Pretty easy to follow isnt it.
Out of intrest what is destructive about farming, besides obvious the killing of animals?
Why do you want pictures Rheghead, surely you had enough of them when you started this thread back in Jan 2010?:
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?97109-A-rather-undignified-end-for-a-fox.-(Not-for-the-Squeamish)&highlight=foxes
I'm just revealing the perverse situation that those that are most horrified (and least likely to report to Org Admin) by a picture of stringing up foxes on a fence would want a pic to be published to harden public feeling against such barbarity and yet those that seek to indulge in killing foxes would be most likely to object to the publicising of a picture of a fox on a fence in the fear that they don't want public opinion to work against them.
Here is my original pic.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/Rheghead/deadfox.jpg
Farmers/estate owners want foxes killed to preserve livestock.
Landowners want the proof the foxes are killed before the people who are hired to shoot em are paid..therefore they are strung up!
Easy to see, therefore payment is due...simples!
Seen 4 laid out by the road at a estate near Melvich and never really noticed them other than they were there...such is countrylife!
You used to see pics of mole catchers with hundreds of moles at their feet and rat catchers with their catch etc...and there was never an outcry..part of life and death in the countryside and land management.
What about those bloody brutal fishing chaps, dragging poor fish out of the rivers by their mouth, twatting them over the head with a kosh then proudly holding them up to be photographed with the dead sea dweller.
Imaine the fox hunters did that then.
Or whats arguably worse, dragging them out the water by their mouth, ripping the hook from their mouth, take the pic then release them.
As said above, it proves that the guy hired to shoot the fox is doing his/her job.
Oh Here We Go Again........
How often has this debate reared its head on Caithness.org?
Yet again it seems to be fuelled by those who have no viable interest in livestock and farming, and only for the 'cute and cuddly' factors of the fox. I think you will find that most farmers (as those directly involved with animals on a daily basis) never like to see any animal suffer unneccessarily. Most farmers will actually also accept that the loss of one or two lambs is nature, but when the situation deteriorates to the stage that their livelihood is being affected, then something must be done about this, and measures taken to prevent it happening again. Farmers, like everyone else, have to live, and to earn even a small crust a lot of work goes into rearing livestock. Nobody can afford cuts to their 'wages' and this is exactly what Mr fox contributes to in the farming line. I'm sure that most people will apreciate that in our current financial climate, everyone has had to tighten thier belts, and unfortunately, farmers cannot afford to not deal with vermin due to the direct link between vermin, livestock losses and financial survival. Shops install burglar alarms to try to prevent thier stock being stolen and guard thier livelihoods, Farmers controlling vermin are simply doing the same.
I find it particularly hurtful that the point is being made regarding dead sheep being left to lie for days on end before - if ever - being burried. This comment is based upon a lack of knowledge again. All the farmers and crofters whom I have contact with regularly patrol thier land (at least daily) looking for hurt, injured, ill or dead livestock. I find it a complete insult to claim that dead livestock are left to rot. Why would a reputable livestock owner want to leave carcusses on thier land for any longer than neccessary, When it is likely that this could spread disease, cause distress to other animals in the field, attract unwanted vermin, and potentially lead to prosecusion by the authorities? I for one certianly remove and bury carcusses as soon as these are found, and know that all decent lievstock owners (whom the majority of Caithness farmers / crofters are) do the same. Occassionally, one may be missed, and if this is the case, we would all welcome a phone call to inform us of the fact, so that it can be removed and burried accordingly. There are occassionally exceptions to this, and those farmers are normally dealt with by the authorities. Again, I'm afraid its a case of 'Where there's livestock, theres unfortunately dead stock'. Its not pretty, but its part of life that has to be dealt with, and we're doing our best. People should try to accept that as our land is constantly on public view, we cannot always hide the unpleasantries that we unfortunately have to deal with, but we certainly constantly strive to deal with 'unpleasantries' in the most effective manner.
As far as I'm aware, I have never publicly 'slagged off' another profession on here, and would like to think that the pleasant, well mannered folk of Caithness would not do so either, but yet again, we find that Farmers / Crofters are being attacked for simply going about thier way of life in the way they have always done. If anyone would like to come and see the beaurocratic hoops we have to jump through regarding animal health, safety and welfare, please feel free to pop over - I will happily show you, Perhaps this will show that we do actually care about animals - oth our own stock and wildlife - and that we're not simply butchers, in it 'for the fun of it'? All jobs have negatives, Why can't people simply accept this, and stop attacking farmers for doing their jobs?
I will no doubt be shot down in flames (yet again) for voicing a valid interest in this subject, but perhaps all the 'do-gooders' out there should try their hand at farming for a wee while? We 're doing our best, and being publicly attacked does not help us do our jobs any better.
Oh Here We Go Again........
How often has this debate reared its head on Caithness.org?
Yet again it seems to be fuelled by those who have no viable interest in livestock and farming, and only for the 'cute and cuddly' factors of the fox. I think you will find that most farmers (as those directly involved with animals on a daily basis) never like to see any animal suffer unneccessarily. Most farmers will actually also accept that the loss of one or two lambs is nature, but when the situation deteriorates to the stage that their livelihood is being affected, then something must be done about this, and measures taken to prevent it happening again. Farmers, like everyone else, have to live, and to earn even a small crust a lot of work goes into rearing livestock. Nobody can afford cuts to their 'wages' and this is exactly what Mr fox contributes to in the farming line. I'm sure that most people will apreciate that in our current financial climate, everyone has had to tighten thier belts, and unfortunately, farmers cannot afford to not deal with vermin due to the direct link between vermin, livestock losses and financial survival. Shops install burglar alarms to try to prevent thier stock being stolen and guard thier livelihoods, Farmers controlling vermin are simply doing the same.
I find it particularly hurtful that the point is being made regarding dead sheep being left to lie for days on end before - if ever - being burried. This comment is based upon a lack of knowledge again. All the farmers and crofters whom I have contact with regularly patrol thier land (at least daily) looking for hurt, injured, ill or dead livestock. I find it a complete insult to claim that dead livestock are left to rot. Why would a reputable livestock owner want to leave carcusses on thier land for any longer than neccessary, When it is likely that this could spread disease, cause distress to other animals in the field, attract unwanted vermin, and potentially lead to prosecusion by the authorities? I for one certianly remove and bury carcusses as soon as these are found, and know that all decent lievstock owners (whom the majority of Caithness farmers / crofters are) do the same. Occassionally, one may be missed, and if this is the case, we would all welcome a phone call to inform us of the fact, so that it can be removed and burried accordingly. There are occassionally exceptions to this, and those farmers are normally dealt with by the authorities. Again, I'm afraid its a case of 'Where there's livestock, theres unfortunately dead stock'. Its not pretty, but its part of life that has to be dealt with, and we're doing our best. People should try to accept that as our land is constantly on public view, we cannot always hide the unpleasantries that we unfortunately have to deal with, but we certainly constantly strive to deal with 'unpleasantries' in the most effective manner.
As far as I'm aware, I have never publicly 'slagged off' another profession on here, and would like to think that the pleasant, well mannered folk of Caithness would not do so either, but yet again, we find that Farmers / Crofters are being attacked for simply going about thier way of life in the way they have always done. If anyone would like to come and see the beaurocratic hoops we have to jump through regarding animal health, safety and welfare, please feel free to pop over - I will happily show you, Perhaps this will show that we do actually care about animals - oth our own stock and wildlife - and that we're not simply butchers, in it 'for the fun of it'? All jobs have negatives, Why can't people simply accept this, and stop attacking farmers for doing their jobs?
I will no doubt be shot down in flames (yet again) for voicing a valid interest in this subject, but perhaps all the 'do-gooders' out there should try their hand at farming for a wee while? We 're doing our best, and being publicly attacked does not help us do our jobs any better.
Well thought out and written, and few of us "farmers/crofters" could add to these true facts of farming life.
Where is claudiaH the troll today anyways, I was looking forward to hearing her views today.
secrets in symmetry
30-Nov-11, 13:06
I hope she hasn't been strung up on a fence as an example to others of her ilk!
pest control, many foxes kill lambs to survive but you also get "rogue" foxes which kill 3 to 4 lambs per night and only remove and eat one lamb leaving the carcases of dead lambs as proof, farmers are only trying to make a living and in this current climate 3 to 4 lambs per night for three to four weeks adds up to a lot of money 3 lambs =£150 per night for 20+ days =£3000, if other vermin e.g rats and mice was doing £3000 worth of damage you would want something done about it
the humane killing of foxes by profesionals who are trained in doing so is necessary in agricultaue and the "barbaric" hanging of foxes on fences is also to deter foxes from entering your land,
after speeking to various trained gamekeeps this technique has proven to work
Croftergirl
30-Nov-11, 17:51
well said Farmer, i certainly couldnt have put it better myself. Mi16, it is pretty noticable that ClaudiaH hasna actually bothered to reply to a well thought out and reasoned anwser......
I asked a gamekeeper on the Tatton Estate in Cheshire if he hung his kills to detere other vermin. He said no it was to show he was doing his job. This was 30 years ago and the practice has largely died out in England.
Oh Here We Go Again........
How often has this debate reared its head on Caithness.org?
Yet again it seems to be fuelled by those who have no viable interest in livestock and farming, and only for the 'cute and cuddly' factors of the fox. I think you will find that most farmers (as those directly involved with animals on a daily basis) never like to see any animal suffer unneccessarily. Most farmers will actually also accept that the loss of one or two lambs is nature, but when the situation deteriorates to the stage that their livelihood is being affected, then something must be done about this, and measures taken to prevent it happening again. Farmers, like everyone else, have to live, and to earn even a small crust a lot of work goes into rearing livestock. Nobody can afford cuts to their 'wages' and this is exactly what Mr fox contributes to in the farming line. I'm sure that most people will apreciate that in our current financial climate, everyone has had to tighten thier belts, and unfortunately, farmers cannot afford to not deal with vermin due to the direct link between vermin, livestock losses and financial survival. Shops install burglar alarms to try to prevent thier stock being stolen and guard thier livelihoods, Farmers controlling vermin are simply doing the same.
I find it particularly hurtful that the point is being made regarding dead sheep being left to lie for days on end before - if ever - being burried. This comment is based upon a lack of knowledge again. All the farmers and crofters whom I have contact with regularly patrol thier land (at least daily) looking for hurt, injured, ill or dead livestock. I find it a complete insult to claim that dead livestock are left to rot. Why would a reputable livestock owner want to leave carcusses on thier land for any longer than neccessary, When it is likely that this could spread disease, cause distress to other animals in the field, attract unwanted vermin, and potentially lead to prosecusion by the authorities? I for one certianly remove and bury carcusses as soon as these are found, and know that all decent lievstock owners (whom the majority of Caithness farmers / crofters are) do the same. Occassionally, one may be missed, and if this is the case, we would all welcome a phone call to inform us of the fact, so that it can be removed and burried accordingly. There are occassionally exceptions to this, and those farmers are normally dealt with by the authorities. Again, I'm afraid its a case of 'Where there's livestock, theres unfortunately dead stock'. Its not pretty, but its part of life that has to be dealt with, and we're doing our best. People should try to accept that as our land is constantly on public view, we cannot always hide the unpleasantries that we unfortunately have to deal with, but we certainly constantly strive to deal with 'unpleasantries' in the most effective manner.
As far as I'm aware, I have never publicly 'slagged off' another profession on here, and would like to think that the pleasant, well mannered folk of Caithness would not do so either, but yet again, we find that Farmers / Crofters are being attacked for simply going about thier way of life in the way they have always done. If anyone would like to come and see the beaurocratic hoops we have to jump through regarding animal health, safety and welfare, please feel free to pop over - I will happily show you, Perhaps this will show that we do actually care about animals - oth our own stock and wildlife - and that we're not simply butchers, in it 'for the fun of it'? All jobs have negatives, Why can't people simply accept this, and stop attacking farmers for doing their jobs?
I will no doubt be shot down in flames (yet again) for voicing a valid interest in this subject, but perhaps all the 'do-gooders' out there should try their hand at farming for a wee while? We 're doing our best, and being publicly attacked does not help us do our jobs any better.
What are you on about?
There have been no criticism against farmers who indulge in the killing of foxes to control vermin, everybody accepts that is essential in the appropriate situation. The OP was merely commenting on the hanging of dead foxes on fences.
Rheghead, I fully understood the initial post and its content being about the hanging of dead foxes on fences. However, in some of the subsequent posts in this thread, it appears that the tone of some individuals responses are implying that foxes are not the culprit in cases of missing / killed livestock. I was simply viewing my personal opinion that foxes are often responsible for killing of livestock, in response to some of these posts. I feel it also closely links to the topic being discussed. Appologies if I have misunderstood the thread or moved it off topic, I am simply voicing my opinion on the general subject.
oldmarine
30-Nov-11, 19:15
No animal kills for pleasure then hangs up its trophys for all to see.
Correct. Animals kill for food not for trophy's like human animals do.
Rheghead, I fully understood the initial post and its content being about the hanging of dead foxes on fences. However, in some of the subsequent posts in this thread, it appears that the tone of some individuals responses are implying that foxes are not the culprit in cases of missing / killed livestock. I was simply viewing my personal opinion that foxes are often responsible for killing of livestock, in response to some of these posts. I feel it also closely links to the topic being discussed. Appologies if I have misunderstood the thread or moved it off topic, I am simply voicing my opinion on the general subject.
It's OK Farmer
Reggy misses things:
ClaudiaH; Perhaps farmers and shepherds who rear sheep have the least regard for these virtues; they blame foxes for heavy losses of lambs throughout much of Britain.
Most farmers are unwilling to accept that foxes kill few lambs; they frequently attribute increases in fox populations in the face of substantial human persecution to other factors.
But if farmers and other landowners were presented with, and showed willing to accept, the scientific facts they might come to see the continuing persecution of foxes as unnecessary. The relentless slaughter of large numbers of such fine creatures should not be based on a wrong assumption.
My own point of view? well I used to run a free-range egg business; just 30,000 eggs a year. I spent considerable sums in making it vermin proof (as was explained in the endless 'foxes' threads that keep appearing) and if any cunning Reynard The Fox got to my chicks I'd blow it's bloody head off with me 12 bore.. Fair enough?
Anyway where IS ClaudiaH she ain't been on since yesterday at 11.41 am?
Anyway where IS ClaudiaH she ain't been on since yesterday at 11.41 am?[/SIZE]
You seem to be developing an obsession about the comings and goings of orgers. Why? Why not just enjoy the org instead of all your archive creeping and timekeeping?
You seem to be developing an obsession about the comings and goings of orgers. Why? Why not just enjoy the org instead of all your archive creeping and timekeeping?Oh dear, have I hit a raw nerve - YOU'RE not ClaudiaH are you?, you seem to be very similar..
Oh yes Reggy I do enjoy the Org, it's great fun. You want to try it sometime!;)
Nah cant be ClaidiaH doesnt whine enough.
Oh dear, have I hit a raw nerve - YOU'RE not ClaudiaH are you?, you seem to be very similar..
Oh yes Reggy I do enjoy the Org, it's great fun. You want to try it sometime!;)
You have a habit of coming to the most strangest of conclusions, this being no exception and that I do not enjoy the org (huh nearly 10000 posts??) and you've alluded that I'm a number of other orgers not just ClaudiaH, is that why you are also obsessed by my timekeeping and archive creeping so that you hope to find patterns in time and grammar etc?
I did once say that I was at least 4 other banned orgers as a joke, not expecting some idiot to believe me, but nothing surprises me anymore. Keep flogging the dead horse Beks, you'll tire before me because going through all my posts must take quite a lot of your time and I'm quite chuffed at that.
Going through your posts Reggy? nah, don't need to, your present postings are soooo much fun..
Me obsessed? that'll be the day.. I just drop into the Org now and then to see what's going on, if I see something, I'll join in, but your 10,000 posts, blinking heck Reggy that's a LOT of CO2 generated AND that's 14 days 24/7 sat on a blinking computer.. you deserve a medal my boy!
Anyway this thread is about FOXES, wish you'd stop going off thread ;)
Do you do political spin for Cameron?
Do you do political spin for Cameron?
Verney Lovett Cameron is one of my heroes - a great British explorer, saw his book 'Across Africa' at the RGS a few years ago, you want to nip down there and look at the library, fantastic, got a lot of help there for my own Thai expedition, Cameron's book has great insight..
Take a look at #10 and #11
http://catalogue.rgs.org/uhtbin/cgisirsi/Jty4UuRkOE/SIRSI/294020017/123
Who?
Cameron the Xmas tree manufacturer?
You have a habit of coming to the most strangest of conclusions, this being no exception and that I do not enjoy the org (huh nearly 10000 posts??) and you've alluded that I'm a number of other orgers not just ClaudiaH, is that why you are also obsessed by my timekeeping and archive creeping so that you hope to find patterns in time and grammar etc?
I did once say that I was at least 4 other banned orgers as a joke, not expecting some idiot to believe me, but nothing surprises me anymore. Keep flogging the dead horse Beks, you'll tire before me because going through all my posts must take quite a lot of your time and I'm quite chuffed at that.
Oh Reggy....you are such a Devil!!!!! Claudia.....oh such a terrible Deffil!
Just looking at the title to this thread and cannot see the logic
Counterproductive? How? The act of shooting itself is productive hence the dead foxes in the first place. If it is meant that it will not sway public opinion - I'm sure the landowners wont care.
Barbaric? I'm still puzzled by this one. The fox is dead, the landowner needs proof - this is the traditional way. I don't think I would stretch to barbarism - that's an over the top, emotive word that doesn't actually fit with the situation. Usually barbarism is saved for acts against live beings that is considered uncivilised - to extend this to a practice of dealing with dead animals IMO is excessive.
Yes I had the same thoughts on the thread title.
WRT the fence hanging, perhaps in todays modern world the hunter should take a quick snap of the dead fox on his Iphone, then upload the pic to facebook and tweet that he has killed another fox.
Or maybe get a webcam fitted to his deerstalker, so the farmer can watch a live streaming feed of the killing.
Yes I had the same thoughts on the thread title.
WRT the fence hanging, perhaps in todays modern world the hunter should take a quick snap of the dead fox on his Iphone, then upload the pic to facebook and tweet that he has killed another fox.
Or maybe get a webcam fitted to his deerstalker, so the farmer can watch a live streaming feed of the killing.
My first thought to the word barbarism was taking the word to mean cruel, rather than its literal sense - but even that doesn't make sense. The animal is already dead - thus no cruelty...
Correct, a dead thing feels no pain.
It could be classsed as gruesome but that is about it.
Aaldtimer
01-Dec-11, 15:40
Why doesn't the pest controller hand over the foxes brush as proof of kill to the customer?
That used to be the practice in days of yore I believe, when there was abounty on the fox.
I seem to remember it was a shilling per brush.:(
Poor old Reynard.
Are you suggesting that shooting the fox is not enough and that it should be mutilated also?
How barbaric!
Aaldtimer
01-Dec-11, 17:54
Are you suggesting that shooting the fox is not enough and that it should be mutilated also?
How barbaric!
Not barbaric at all, the beast is dead, it feels no pain.
A better solution than a public display of it's rotting corpse on a gamey's gibbet![disgust]
pest control and in doing so the humane killing of foxes is not cruel, making an animal suffer and causing it distress is cruelty,
hanging of foxes on fences has got a few reasons behind it one being to deter other foxes from entering your land and causing more harm and also to let the land owner know that a job is being done effectively
hanging of dead foxes on fences is part of country life in caithness and sutherland in my opinion wont change due to a silly online rant, quite simple its live in the country and you will have to put up with what happens in the country
Not barbaric at all, the beast is dead, it feels no pain.
A better solution than a public display of it's rotting corpse on a gamey's gibbet![disgust]
You didnt detect the sarcasm then?
Aaldtimer
01-Dec-11, 20:24
You didnt detect the sarcasm then?
It did cross my mind, but it's nornally accompanied by a smiley wink...and then you know what they say about sarcasm!
Perhaps I gave you too much credit.;)
Perhaps I gave you too much credit.;)
Oh so true Aaldtimer [lol]
rosie, it was common practice throughout these islands but that was a century or more ago and most who still feel the need to kill predators would not display them as these two have been.
I can understand that old practices die slowly in many rural areas but it always beggars the question as to why it needs to be done?
It's no good a landowner complaining about the damage done by rabbits,moles etc if the creatures that predate them have been stripped from the food chain and why pay a game keeper is they cannot do their job in ensuring that pheasant pens,chicken houses are secure?
I know that foxes stand accused of taking various prey including young sickly lambs and game birds and extreme cases the only answer is to destroy the offender, however many a killing atributed to them has been the work of a rogue dog or dogs as some of my farmer friends will readily attest to.
Oh so true Aaldtimer [lol]
What a James
rosie, it was common practice throughout these islands but that was a century or more ago and most who still feel the need to kill predators would not display them as these two have been.
I can understand that old practices die slowly in many rural areas but it always beggars the question as to why it needs to be done?
It's no good a landowner complaining about the damage done by rabbits,moles etc if the creatures that predate them have been stripped from the food chain and why pay a game keeper is they cannot do their job in ensuring that pheasant pens,chicken houses are secure?
I know that foxes stand accused of taking various prey including young sickly lambs and game birds and extreme cases the only answer is to destroy the offender, however many a killing atributed to them has been the work of a rogue dog or dogs as some of my farmer friends will readily attest to.
I still cannot see the problem here, you see road kill all the time, spilled guts and brains is far more gruesome than a coupe of dead foxes.
A fox will nip a lot more than just sickly lambs, and the thing with hen houses is that they have a hatch to get in and out and tend to roam the farm free therefore the fox will stroll in and easy pickings. So in order to control this we blast them with a blooming great gun. same goes for rogue dogs, even the farmers sheepdog, if it steps out of line on a regular basis it will meet its maker also.
Croftergirl
01-Dec-11, 23:30
Foxes only take sickly lamb??? Tell ya what Lizz, why don't you come out with me to one o ma lambin jobs and see first hand what foxes can do?! It's not only sickly lambs they take, and believe me it's far more gruesome to find a lamb chewed in half by a fox and to see it's mam running round e park looking for it.
As I said in my post, there are times when to destroy the perpertrator is the only recourse and I don't have a problem with that, just feel it's .more than a little archaic to hang the carcase on a fence as a trophy.
I am also well aware why the carcase is left as it will deter others from moving in on a vacant territory all the while it's scent is about.
Croftergirl I am a farmer's daughter so am well aware of the damage they can do, also have friends who farm sheep and feel for them when a lamb is lost in this way but it even more hearbreaking when full grown sheep are savaged by dogs and I will defend the right of any farmer/crofter/landowner to shoot the animal no questions asked.
what exactly is your point then?
Its a dead fox. If you dont like seeing them hung up then put some gloves on take it down dig a hole and bury it.
Has anyone else noticed that ClaudiaH has not shown any activity since 11.41am on the 29th November?
I did mention this on #53, but got a smacked wrist on #54. But the fact remains, is she/he one of these that throw a contentious issue into the ring and then creeps away? or is he/she really a sockpuppet (i.e. an Orger using a different persona) hmmm :roll:
Look at the great debate that has been stimulated from that comment though.
"We must fight against the spirit of unconscious cruelty with which we treat the animals. Animals suffer as much as we do. True humanity does not allow us to impose such sufferings on them. It is our duty to make the whole world recognize it. Until we extend our circle of compassion to all living things, humanity will not find peace."
Bekisman I am a woman should it matter,and one that just had a big laugh at the great word now added to my repertoire: sockpuppet ,,haha that 's one I shall use for a while!
I "creep" at times when I need ,but not virtually on the net..
have you read DREAMLAND?
When midnight mists are creeping,
And all the land is sleeping,
Around me tread the mighty dead,
And slowly pass away.
So back on track.. where are all the good people of passionate feelings gone?Who is aware of the cruelty behind the hunt of any?..
By the way,the former quote,not the poem ,were Jane Goodall's ,should she ring a bell ..perhaps if those who and untouched by animal cruelty ,and believe it to be a jest or sport or whichever other form of justified behaviour-certainly not humane- knowing of her work and suffering might change those stone hearts a little ,perhaps even better their acknowledgement !
I wasn't "here" because I wasn't here,but "here" I am ,again:eek:
Hopefully one that will bring to some a deeper conscience and broader humane view over the suffering that the hunt causes,perhaps a glimpse on the individual in the fox that is hurt,massacred and hanged ..!- even in those who wish to "fight" it back 'till the end !
wonder..
Oh dear Claudia.......Have you ever thought about getting some professional help?
I love animals but I think you are going way over the top with your rants.
Please make an appointment to see your GP, you need help!!
C3..............:eek::eek:
Really?...must be someone else here needing that "help"...clearly so!!! I feel so so sorry for you,,poor thing!
Yes there are a few on the .Org that I think need help but you are far and out at top of the list Claudia, Gp's don't close until 6.00pm, please ring now and book an appointment!!
C3.............:~(
Mystical Potato Head
02-Dec-11, 18:45
I'm with ClaudiaH on this.
Someone has to put an end to this fox hunting.
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/sat5_photos/20110312-144503-2.jpg
Claudia - take your pick - fox shot and hung on a fence or fox hunted with dogs and horses. Hunting has been banned - shooting is now a landowner's only possible action.
bekisman i am a woman should it matter,and one that just had a big laugh at the great word now added to my repertoire: Sockpuppet ,,haha that 's one i shall use for a while!
Oh i'm so relieved that you're back!
Oh i'm so relieved that you're back!
Annoying isn't it???
Yes there are a few on the .Org that I think need help but you are far and out at top of the list Claudia, Gp's don't close until 6.00pm, please ring now and book an appointment!!
C3.............:~(
Good to know I am on the top a nice list haha,,..
I wonder who opened the specimen's jar that let you out!! Oh dear!!! :lol:
Annoying isn't it???
Annoying?? Annoying - to say the least!- those who cold-bloodedly destroy wildlife and can't possibly see the short-mindedness of their acts not even if the evidences are smeared on their faces !Really pathetic! Poor planet with earthlings of the kind!
I know ,it took until just very recent years for our "royalty" ,"sirs" and alikes to a step wee -titchy-tiny bit more into "civilisation" banning that brutal, pagan ritual,,with hound and horses and without..NOW COMES THE TIME FOR THOSE FARMERS WHO MURDER IN THE IGNOMINY OF THEIR MISCHIEF AND NESCIENCE TO BE REVAMPED!
TYhe countryside has been manipulated by man from the year dot.
The control of what we perseve as pests has moulded the countryside as we know it into what it is now.
The wildlife and the farmers livelihood are in equilibrium in who wins at the moment.
Would you rather that the grass wasnt cropped by the sheep and the fox ruled?
Or as sheep would be seen as a non viable stock somjething else is taken on~?
I would rather the sheep and the shooting.....been done for hundreds of years now and the land/wildlife is stable=equilibrium!
orkneycadian
03-Dec-11, 00:38
Until we extend our circle of compassion to all living things, humanity will not find peace."
If we promise not to kill any animals, will all the sharks, crocs, snakes, pit bull terriers, etc promise not to kill us? Or any other animals for that matter (which means the animals in question can be extended to cover just about them all.....)
secrets in symmetry
03-Dec-11, 13:51
I found ClaudiaH!
http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20080514/Woman-Climbing-Fence-727326.jpg
Nope
she's (ring ring) a Green!
http://www.green-passions.com/seeme/claudiah.html
Croftergirl
03-Dec-11, 17:49
Hmmm claudiaH you've made me think! All us farmers must be so cruel.... Imagine haven ma coos in in is horrible weather, imagine me spending e last 3hours oot in e drivin hail, sleet n snow makin sure ma animals all have hay, water n shelter, freezing ma ass of to make sure they are ok, I'm solo bloody cruel!! Your vision o all farmers is pretty skewed to say the least. Corrie3, have you got at number for e Drs, I think I need it for masel to see if they have anything to take ma blood pressure doon.
I found ClaudiaH!
http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20080514/Woman-Climbing-Fence-727326.jpg
Thats not a Female, I recognise that bum.....It's Reggy's I reckon, looks like his anyway!!!!
C3.............:eek::eek:
Nope
she's (ring ring) a Green!
http://www.green-passions.com/seeme/claudiah.html
Straight from the Dan Brown/Nostrodamus School of Googling.
Thats not a Female, I recognise that bum.....It's Reggy's I reckon, looks like his anyway!!!!
C3.............:eek::eek:
You have been looking at my bum?
You have been looking at my bum?
Yep, nice innit?
C3................:roll:;)
Moderator
03-Dec-11, 22:34
This thread is closed meantime because all the shouting was giving the Admin/Mods a headache.
The topic is OK but it's not OK to shout louder than the OP when replying. Perhaps a few of the posters on this thread should bear this in mind.
Thank you.
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