View Full Version : Mmr 3 In 1 Injection!!!
Bingobabe
11-Oct-06, 15:40
Just wondering what are some peoples views on this. my one year old is due to have this injection. And to say the least i am not all that keen on him having this injection. I have been doing some research and alot of it points to autisim!!!!!
And i know there is nothing at all wrong with my child now but there is autisim that runs in my family. Help:(
cuddlepop
11-Oct-06, 15:55
Bingobabe,autism runs in my family too but unfortunatly 13 years ago we didn't no this.If I'd have known then what I do now I would not have let my daughter have the injection.
All the evidence is not conclusive but I do know if the government had too pay out compensation it would be millions.
So my advice given family history is to insist on separate jabs.The consequences of having a rection to the jab is non returnable,there is no cure for autism but you can limit your childs expore to that.
You are more than welcome to pm me ,autism connect have a very good news letter which we get on line which I would gladly forward to you.:D
My understanding of Autistic Spectrum Disorders is that the immune system of some individuals can go into overdrive at an early age if something stimulates the immune system into action. Although we are all programmed to ditch a lot of the connections our brains make when we are babies, this immune response removes too many connections, resulting in Autism, Asperger's Syndrome, ADHD and so on.
Some individuals appear to respond in this way after receiving the MMR vaccination. It is not the MMR immunisation that is at fault, it is some kind of genetic predisposition within the individual themselves that triggers an overly aggressive immune reponse to the jab.
If there is evidence of autism in your immediate family, I would be wary of the MMR jab and request individual immunisations instead.
Colin Manson
11-Oct-06, 16:22
I think the following two articles on BBCs website are interesting.
About the lead Doctor in the study that started it all - Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5070670.stm)
The trend - rise in autism. - Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4311613.stm)
cuddlepop
11-Oct-06, 16:31
Gollach right Bingobabe,if the immune system is suppred in any way there's a greater risk of developing the condition.
The specialists have agreed its genetic,enviromental and or chemical.
Colin has given you some good web sights and I have sent you part of a news letter.
Take your time in making your decision.
My son had the mmr, befor he had it he was perfectly normal.After it he was addmitted to hospital as he was severly sick, he lost all his speach and social skills, was then diagnosed autistic.This is a long story cut short, now my youngest daughter is due hers, but there is no way.
just my very shortned oppinion,but its every ones own decision.
Just as said take your own time to make the decision.
chaz x
Autisim is normally diagnosed, in children around the age of one 1/2 - two, of which age they recieve their mmr jab. There has not been any research that actually points to mmr as being the culprit of causing autisim. If you are in great doubt you can pay for your child to have the three seperate jabs, although you should have a chat with ur gp about ur concerns and hopefully they can help you to decide which way to go.
Autism is difficult for parents and the child, but just remember what mealses can do to a child.
Can't say that I have seen any evidence that convincingly points to the MMR being related to autism, but surely if everyone dug their heels in for separate injections, or no injections at all...................... the figures would soon prove or disprove the link.
My baby had this as the pros far outweighed the cons. There was not enough evidence to show that it causes autism but the effects of Measels. Mumps and rubella are very real and can be life threatning so I got it done but it is a personnel choice. The problem is if too many parents opt out of the vaccine the chances of kids getting one of these things is higher. But you will make the right decision for you and yours and thats what matters.
grumpyhippo
11-Oct-06, 20:09
Bingobabe given your family history please don't listen to any of the marginally informed gossip in my post, or anyone elses for that matter. This whole subject is far too important to leave it the likes of me. Speak to a professional i.e. GP,practice nurse,health visitor etc. and be guided by them
I understand that the research that first raised this supposed link of MMR & autism has been totally discredited. My first child was born before the introduction of the triple vaccine but my second had it. When (or if) they ever have children I wouldn't hesitate in recommending that they get the triple vaccine.
Remember that if you did manage to get the single vaccines the child is unprotected during the extended interval needed for single doses. Unfortunately I am old enough to remember the panic each of those illness caused in a community when they struck.
.
Can't say that I have seen any evidence that convincingly points to the MMR being related to autism, but surely if everyone dug their heels in for separate injections, or no injections at all...................... the figures would soon prove or disprove the link.
No injections at all are dangerous. There are alot of children becoming teenagers now that are catching the mumps and becoming sterile for it due to the deluge of people that did not vaccinate their children.
Bingobabe given your family history please don't listen to any of the marginally informed gossip in my post, or anyone elses for that matter. This whole subject is far too important to leave it the likes of me. Speak to a professional i.e. GP,practice nurse,health visitor etc. and be guided by them
I understand that the research that first raised this supposed link of MMR & autism has been totally discredited. My first child was born before the introduction of the triple vaccine but my second had it. When (or if) they ever have children I wouldn't hesitate in recommending that they get the triple vaccine.
Remember that if you did manage to get the single vaccines the child is unprotected during the extended interval needed for single doses. Unfortunately I am old enough to remember the panic each of those illness caused in a community when they struck.
.
Grumpyhippo got it spot on, Bingobabe, best to share your concerns with the Doc, in light of your family history, just so you can feel more secure in the advice you're receiving.
For the record, Wee'erBurd received her MMR earlier in the year. Although she actually developed an extremely mild dose of ruebella as a result of the live vaccine (i.e. rash, irritablility etc.), she was absolutely fine within a few weeks. I think that can happen with a small percentage of kids, and is well documented in the government leaflets covering early childhood immunisations.
Wee'est will be a while yet, but again, the risks that the three diseases pose to our little ones are just too great in my own opinion, and I had/will have no hesitation in allowing both my kids to receive the triple vaccine.
This is one of the subjects I am glad I will not have to make a decision about although I must admit I would probably tend to get the injections done.
The main cause of the problem surrounding MMR has been caused by the dogmatic attitude of the Government and the GMC that they have decided that only the MMR Injection should be administered and those who would prefer the alternative should be bullied into submission.
There were and still are a large number of parents who have very real concerns about the subject and the official attitude that their fears should be treated with contempt, ridiculed and that they should be rolled over by the Juggernaught of the State shows all the signs of the arrogance of a dictatorial mindset. "Do it our way or not at all!"
I have still to hear a sound reason from either the Government or the Health Professionals why there is such a dogmatic refusal to offer parents with real and genuine fears the alternatives that exist.
It seems to me that cause of the problems and dangers they constantly proclaim are the fault of the parents who declined the MMR Vaccine are, in fact, very much ones of their own dogmatic making.
No injections at all are dangerous. There are alot of children becoming teenagers now that are catching the mumps and becoming sterile for it due to the deluge of people that did not vaccinate their children.
Once again, feel free to jump in if my logic is flawed:
1) Give half the newborns individual M & M & R injections
2) Give half the newborns no injections.
Wait 5 years (is that a reasonable period?) and look at how many autistic children there now are.
Once you have the figures - give the ones in group (2) the appropriate injection(s). (will the vaccines, given at age 5 prevent teenage illness?)
Grumpyhippo is correct in my eyes, insofar as his advice directs towards professionals. I did the same in a previous post and got mugged for not giving sufficient credit to the minds of the other contributors.
Have a look at the previous thread:
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=9914
And answer honestly.................. are you going to trust important medical advice from someone who's idea of a thread is: "What's your favourite pizza topping?"
And answer honestly.................. are you going to trust important medical advice from someone who's idea of a thread is: "What's your favourite pizza topping?"
I think that is alittle unfair. Is it in your opinion then that if someone posts a light hearted or alittle daft thread that then any advice they hand out should not be trusted?
I think that is alittle unfair. Is it in your opinion then that if someone posts a light hearted or alittle daft thread that then any advice they hand out should not be trusted?
In comparison to professional medical advice, then I would re-state that all you are getting is a poll, akin to the following:
My kids had MMR and were allright
My kids had individual injections and they were allright
My kids had no injections and were allright
etc etc
Are we more informed for knowing that?
cuddlepop
12-Oct-06, 20:28
Help:(
Thats what Bingobabe asked us for.Not medical advice ,that will come from the professionals.Just plan old simple help,You know the one that friends give when advice is asked.
Bingobabe doesn't have to take any advice thats given ,indead she can choose to ignore threads.She is and will continue to worry about her child it goes with the territory.Friendly help from where I'm sitting is always welcome:D
In comparison to professional medical advice, then I would re-state that all you are getting is a poll, akin to the following:
My kids had MMR and were allright
My kids had individual injections and they were allright
My kids had no injections and were allright
etc etc
Are we more informed for knowing that?
I think if you re-read Bingobabe's original post, you'll see she is probably more informed than the rest of us, she has already researched the subject well. I see this as her opportunity to also discuss the matter with her peers, which we all like to do in an informal manner. Is it so bad to ask this on-line, when it's a conversation that probably takes place daily in many Mother & Toddler groups? In all arguments there are for and against, but it's always good to hear peoples reasons for their views. :roll:
Just wondering what are some peoples views on this. snip
Help
Thats what Bingobabe asked us for.Not medical advice ,that will come from the professionals.Just plan old simple help,You know the one that friends give when advice is asked.
Bingobabe doesn't have to take any advice thats given ,indead she can choose to ignore threads.She is and will continue to worry about her child it goes with the territory.Friendly help from where I'm sitting is always welcome
Sorry MrsC, was posting at the same time as you, but my sentiments are the same:) .
cuddlepop
12-Oct-06, 20:43
Thats ok,I'm getting annoyed so will avoid this thread its just to personel:~(
j4bberw0ck
12-Oct-06, 20:52
If one were to research MMR, then the available resources all indicate that there is no proven connection with autism. The original study which suggested it was withdrawn.
If on the other hand, one has trawled a load of websites reading opinions from mostly non-qualified people (very often with an agenda), written during the last 5 years or so, then it doesn't qualify as research.
There's a slow explosion going on in juvenile measles and mumps, all down to people second-guessing informed sources. As for the point about "no one gets three diseases at once", can I point out that with an innoculation you don't get the disease at all. If you're worried about risk factors to your children then for heaven's sake worry about their diet, their exercising, whether they can look after themselves on a road....... things that might really affect them.
And FWIW I believe Mareng's point is right on the money. Well said that man.
I think if you re-read Bingobabe's original post, you'll see she is probably more informed than the rest of us, she has already researched the subject well. I see this as her opportunity to also discuss the matter with her peers, which we all like to do in an informal manner. Is it so bad to ask this on-line, when it's a conversation that probably takes place daily in many Mother & Toddler groups? In all arguments there are for and against, but it's always good to hear peoples reasons for their views. :roll:
I would guess that Bingobabe is more informed than most or the rest of us, which makes me wonder the purpose of the post.
If she is asking on a public forum, for a response that results in several people stating what they did, and others posting links (all valid) to professional writings (which she has probably "googled" already) - then I have to wonder if she is still undecided and is looking for the "safety in numbers" reasoning to fall back on.
i.e. (if it happens to me, at least I won't be the only one)
Have a look at the thread "Feeding Your Children Meat Is Child Abuse" - it quite easily drifts into the "I did this/I did that" format which might be sociable, but come on ------------ is it actually helpful (or prompt debate)?
Anyway, to address the reaction of the Health Service/Government to concerns ...........does no-one agree/dissagree to a sufficient degree to comment on my idea of changing the regime of MMR vaccination to prove the perception, or not?
p.s. I always go for double pepperoni with anchovies.
If one were to research MMR, then the available resources all indicate that there is no proven connection with autism. The original study which suggested it was withdrawn.
If on the other hand, one has trawled a load of websites reading opinions from mostly non-qualified people (very often with an agenda), written during the last 5 years or so, then it doesn't qualify as research.
There's a slow explosion going on in juvenile measles and mumps, all down to people second-guessing informed sources. As for the point about "no one gets three diseases at once", can I point out that with an innoculation you don't get the disease at all. If you're worried about risk factors to your children then for heaven's sake worry about their diet, their exercising, whether they can look after themselves on a road....... things that might really affect them.
And FWIW I believe Mareng's point is right on the money. Well said that man.
Thank you!
(but .........aren't you one of those "Biker Outlaws"?)
BA
I would guess that Bingobabe is more informed than most or the rest of us, which makes me wonder the purpose of the post.
If she is asking on a public forum, for a response that results in several people stating what they did, and others posting links (all valid) to professional writings (which she has probably "googled" already) - then I have to wonder if she is still undecided and is looking for the "safety in numbers" reasoning to fall back on.
i.e. (if it happens to me, at least I won't be the only one)
Have a look at the thread "Feeding Your Children Meat Is Child Abuse" - it quite easily drifts into the "I did this/I did that" format which might be sociable, but come on ------------ is it actually helpful (or prompt debate)?
Anyway, to address the reaction of the Health Service/Government to concerns ...........does no-one agree/dissagree to a sufficient degree to comment on my idea of changing the regime of MMR vaccination to prove the perception, or not?
p.s. I always go for double pepperoni with anchovies.
It appears you are questioning the validity of my responses to posts here on the Org, Mareng, but i'll stand corrected if I've mis-interpreted your post. [lol]
I'm happy to comment on your idea of changing the current regime. I think one would have to be completely naive to suggest leaving any children unvaccinated against these serious diseases. By all means study the effects of the triple versus the 3 x single jabs, but I for one, would not be willing to leave my children unvaccinated. Whoops, there I go with my own opinions again, curse me having my own mind...
For the record, whilst I don't agree with J4bberw0ks post, I will agree on his comments that the autism links have recently been discredited. I chose not to include that on my own post, as I have neither the time nor inclination to go rooting about on the net for links to validate my comments. I'm sure Bingobabe will have already received this re-assurance from her healthcare professionals.
It appears you are questioning the validity of my responses to posts here on the Org, Mareng, but i'll stand corrected if I've mis-interpreted your post. [lol]
I'm happy to comment on your idea of changing the current regime. I think one would have to be completely naive to suggest leaving any children unvaccinated against these serious diseases. By all means study the effects of the triple versus the 3 x single jabs, but I for one, would not be willing to leave my children unvaccinated. Whoops, there I go with my own opinions again, curse me having my own mind...
For the record, whilst I don't agree with J4bberw0ks post, I will agree on his comments that the autism links have recently been discredited. I chose not to include that on my own post, as I have neither the time nor inclination to go rooting about on the net for links to validate my comments. I'm sure Bingobabe will have already received this re-assurance from her healthcare professionals.
No, you responded to the original post and have elaborated to the extent that I agree with a lot of your sentiment.
My concern was that people were posting on subjects that I feel they would be doing themselves a diservice with, if they based their decision on my or others' opinions. The decision-making in this case is a bit different from, say: a debate on wind turbines or electricity pylons.
In each of the above turbines or pylons, at the end of the purely scientific statement of "facts", there is room for debate on the personal perception of whether they are "aesthetically pleasing" or "a waste of energy" etc, but in the MMR posts - there can be no argument ...............Autism is disasterous to a parent and child, in anyone's book.
So - I re-iterate: There is no room for laypersons' opinion in the decision-making process of a concerned parent. They (the parents) owe it to themselves to reserch the subject and to make the decision based on that reserch. (I know - that was an opinion)
That you wouldn't leave your children un-vaccinated? No, neither would I.
j4bberw0ck
12-Oct-06, 23:59
(but .........aren't you one of those "Biker Outlaws"?)
Oh, wow, you bet. Tattooed to within half an inch of my life, I terrorise little old ladies wherever I roam, while my ear-rings tinkle as I move and thousands of small flies die horribly on my facial studs......
And you........... how's your new interest in pogo sticks doing? Boing, boing, boing............ :lol:
No, you responded to the original post and have elaborated to the extent that I agree with a lot of your sentiment.
My concern was that people were posting on subjects that I feel they would be doing themselves a diservice with, if they based their decision on my or others' opinions. The decision-making in this case is a bit different from, say: a debate on wind turbines or electricity pylons.
In each of the above turbines or pylons, at the end of the purely scientific statement of "facts", there is room for debate on the personal perception of whether they are "aesthetically pleasing" or "a waste of energy" etc, but in the MMR posts - there can be no argument ...............Autism is disasterous to a parent and child, in anyone's book.
So - I re-iterate: There is no room for laypersons' opinion in the decision-making process of a concerned parent. They (the parents) owe it to themselves to reserch the subject and to make the decision based on that reserch. (I know - that was an opinion)
That you wouldn't leave your children un-vaccinated? No, neither would I.So, in effect, what you are saying is that when it comes to certain matters the "opinion" of professionals should just be accepted without consideration and the "layperson" has no right to give any thought to the subject.
It was only the continued fuss raised by "laypersons" with totally unfounded "opinions" that forced serious consideration about the birth defects caused by Thalidomide. All the Health Professionals and the Scientific Experts decried them for long enough as nothing more than troublemakers intent on stirring up public hysteria.
I make no connection between the genuine and very real problems of Thalidomide and the alleged link between MMR and Autism but just to say that there is no room for "layperson's opinion in the decision making process" is nothing more than to tell them to behave like brainless robots.
I have not gone back and scrutinised the thread but I don't recall anybody telling Bingobabe exactly what her actions should be.
She obviously has some worries about the subject and simply saying, in effect, that neither should she discuss the matter on the board nor others offer their opinion can do nothing to resolve her worries.
Yes, I would advise Bingobabe to have a good talk to her Doctor about the MMR Jabs but there is no way that the subject should be brushed under the carpet because "laypersons" are too ignorant to have an opinion. To suggest that is simply to demand "Mindless Obedience".
Taking that road leads down a very dangerous route, a very dangerous route indeed.
the original ducky
13-Oct-06, 13:18
hello everyone i had my daughter have the mmr i wasnt sure at first but thanks to help from the caithness orgers,doctors and pals that have had it done for there children i decided it was a good idea. good luck in your decision whatever one you make it will be the right one for you and your child.
Bingobabe
13-Oct-06, 13:56
Thanks for everyone for sharing their VIEWS on this very worrying subject well it is to me anyway. I am only asking what people thought not for them to inject my child for me as i am not an idiot!!!!
And yes i have asked the doctor and health visitor and whom ever was qualified enough to tell me i have heard there concerns and listened to what they had to say. And i am still not satisfied with the answers i recieved so i wanted to know what other people thought whom had gone through the same experience and know where im coming from.
I am not going to do what anybody tells me to do as every child is different and injections as such can affect every child diffrently.
And again thanks to everyone that sent me private messages with very good advice and information.
I have made my decision and feel it is the right one for me and my son thanks again.
This topic has come up several times both on this forum and on several others I've occasionally contributed to. This prompted me to read a number of articles and original research papers about the subject. I'm most definitely not an expert but I do know a bit about it.
A good place to start has already been pointed out by Colin:
I think the following two articles on BBCs website are interesting.
About the lead Doctor in the study that started it all - Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5070670.stm)
The trend - rise in autism. - Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4311613.stm)It's worth reading the BBC article in Colin's second link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4311613.stm). The article in New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7076) it references is pretty similar. Indeed the statistical sample in the Yokohama dataset was so good that I went away and read the whole paper (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search/article?title=MMR&title_type=tka&year_from=1998&year_to=2006&database=1&pageSize=20&index=62) last year. (For some reason I don't seem to have access to the text of the paper any more - not sure why.) It's not too hard to read if you're familiar with that sort of analysis. A slightly one-sided summary of its conclusions is here (http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Vaccines/noMMR.html).
Anyway, the New Scientist article includes the following summary:
Not one epidemiological study has revealed a link between the vaccine and autism. But until now they have all concentrated on what happened after MMR vaccination for children was introduced. Honda's is the first to look at the autism rate after the MMR vaccine has been withdrawn. Japan withdrew it in April 1993 following reports that the anti-mumps component was causing meningitis (it plans to introduce another version).
Sudden regression
With his colleagues Yasuo Shimizu and Michael Rutter of the Institute of Psychiatry in London, UK, Honda looked at the records of 31,426 children born in one district of Yokohama between 1988 and 1996. The team counted children diagnosed as autistic by the age of 7.
They found the cases continued to multiply after the vaccine withdrawal, ranging from 48 to 86 cases per 10,000 children before withdrawal to 97 to 161 per 10,000 afterwards. The same pattern was seen with a particular form of autism in which children appear to develop normally and then suddenly regress - the form linked to MMR by Wakefield.
The study cannot rule out the possibility that MMR triggers autism in a tiny number of children, as some claim, but it does show there is no large-scale effect. The vaccine "cannot have caused autism in the many children with autism spectrum disorders in Japan who were born and grew up in the era when MMR was not available", Honda concludes.
So if the vaccine is not responsible for the rising rates of autism, what is? "Clearly some environmental factors are causing the increases," says Irva Hertz-Picciotto of the University of California at Davis, US. Other experts disagree, saying the apparent rise could be the result of changing diagnostic criteria and the rising profile of the disorder (New Scientist print edition, 17 February 2001).
This is pretty much the conclusion I came to after reading the paper by Honda et al. However, by then I'd developed an interest in the subject so I went away and read a whole bunch of other papers. The conclusion was always the same: there is no statistical evidence whatsoever for a link between MMR and autism and/or bowel disease. However, one must be careful, and I quote again one paragraph from the New Scientist article:
The study cannot rule out the possibility that MMR triggers autism in a tiny number of children, as some claim, but it does show there is no large-scale effect. The vaccine "cannot have caused autism in the many children with autism spectrum disorders in Japan who were born and grew up in the era when MMR was not available", Honda concludes.
The statement in red is clearly correct - it's almost impossible to prove that something doesn't happen by statistical analysis alone. The statement in blue is the conclusion of the paper and it seems reasonable to me.
Another extract from the New Scientist article:
The study shows that in the city of Yokohama the number of children with autism continued to rise after the MMR vaccine was replaced with single vaccines. "The findings are resoundingly negative," says Hideo Honda of the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center.
So, one study large-scale of single vaccines has already been done - albeit inadvertently - and one (naive) conclusion would be that single vaccines cause autism! Indeed they are far worse than the MMR vaccine! Of course, I wouldn't jump to the naive conclusion because this "evidence" is circumstantial, at best.
Btw there were clinical reasons for not introducing single vaccines in the UK around time of the Wakefield paper. I don't remember exactly what they were, but I can probably dig them up if anyone's interested.
So, what else should be done? I'm not sure. As I say, I'm no expert on the subject, but it seems to me that the cause of the rise in reported cases of autism is not known. There continues to be a lot of controversy over possible links between the measles virus, the contents of vaccines, autism, bowel disease, and various other unpleasant conditions, but I'm not sufficiently expert on any of these things to be able to figure out what's going on here - if anything!
What's my bottom line? Well, I would conclude that the MMR vaccine is extremely unlikely to cause autism in most children - I mean really, really, really unlikely. However, it's very difficult to rule out a possible link between some contents of some vaccines and the triggering of autism in any given child. But what is clear is that this doesn't happen very often - if at all.
But not everyone agrees with all of my conclusions. For an exhaustive review from a tireless campaigner, take a look at this (http://www.jabs.org.uk/pages/Autism_Review.pdf). I don't have the time nor the inclination to read this 430-page report, but I wasn't particularly convinced by his criticism of the "Yokohama" paper by Honda et al. However, he does raise some important issues, and he makes some interesting points, so it might be worth a read.
If I had to make the decision right now, I think I would choose to go ahead with the MMR vaccination for my child - just as I did when my two were young.
Edit: I wrote most of the above a couple of hours ago but I had to dash off into town before checking and posting it. I don't know what decision you've made Bingobabe, but I'm glad you've thought long and hard about it first. Last, but by no means least, I'm most certainly not going to tell you what to do!
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