View Full Version : Why independence?
John Little
08-May-11, 09:15
I tried asking this before but got trolled by someone asking which way I voted then trying to talk about Dounreay for some reason. So I figured that if I started it as a thread then I might get a sensible answer.
On another thread Ducati said this;
I still don't understand why it is even desirable, care to enlighten?"
I have to say that I share that position. I do not understand.
When I asked it before my own personal troll replied 'self-respect' but I made the mistake of replying that this implies an absence of self respect and implies inferiority.
But that I, as a unionist (small u) have never regarded Scotland or Scots as inferior; I am part Scots myself. That I have always seen the union as a mutually beneficial partnership of equals. To my troll that seemed to imply that I was a Tory so he asked the very personal question of which way I vote.
Now my own position on independence is quite clear - that if the people of Scotland want it then of course they should have it.
And I know full well that Scotland is quite capable of running her own economy and with a GDP of £137 bn would be perfectly viable as an independent nation state.
But I do not understand why.
To me it's a bit like having a divorce because you are bored.
Which seems perverse in such a glitteringly successful marriage; England and Scotland have done things together that neither could have done alone.
So I would like some grounded, rational and sensible Scottish nationalist to explain to me why independence is a desirable thing.
Not as a loaded question full of pre valued angst because this is not a challenge. I really wish to understand for my own education.
And if the marriage has gone wrong does it mean permanent separation, or would some marriage guidance which led to an updated form of marriage (full federalism) suffice?
Tubthumper
08-May-11, 09:30
We Scots have been brought up on stories about how great we were (the enlightenment, our education systems, our soldiers and so on) but are daily told we're a joke (poorly housed, fat, alcoholic, dense underachieving spongers and so on). The change obviously came about since our marriage.
'We' have been put in our current situation by the current arrangement; Despite our contribution to the running of the Union, and all that has come to us from it, it is not satisfactory and is getting steadily worse.
We'd like superb facilities, sports teams that win things, a positive outlook, better health, longer life and a place at the main table of world events. The world is changing, old relationships are becoming irrelevant, we have so much to contribute. So we're going to discuss how we'd like to go forward. If our current partner England doesn't like us fat spongers, why are they so scared of losing us?
Agreed, a Federated arrangement might be grand. European preferably.
We Scots have been brought up on stories about how great we were (the enlightenment, our education systems, our soldiers and so on)
You want independence because of glorious stories.
but are daily told we're a joke (poorly housed, fat, alcoholic, dense underachieving spongers and so on).
You want independence because someone said cheeky things about Scotland.
The change obviously came about as a result of our marriage to England,
The change from what?
who by the way are always moaning about us not being good enough.
Really- all of them? Or just those whom you rant at about your nationalist "grievances?"
And by the way, our current state obviously includes all those who have settled here, wherever they've come from.
Well I suppose so, but is that for or against independence?
We'd like superb facilities, sports teams that win things, a positive outlook, better health, longer life and a place at the main table of world events. It isn't happening at the moment.
Do you blame English oppression for Wick Academy's away record as well? For Stewart Kennedy letting in five? For over-eating in Scotland?
We'd all like those superb things, but I don't see how independence would bring them to us.
The world is changing, old relationships are becoming irrelevant, we have so much to contribute. So we're going to discuss how we'd like to go forward.
Don't know what any of those points mean, but enjoy yourself.
And if England doesn't like us fat spongers, why are they so scared of losing us?
Is that what they call tub thumping rhetoric? Once again, the English people you have managed to annoy with spurious tales of English oppression may say they don't like you.
Tubthumper
08-May-11, 09:50
Good post Sids; well structured, points clearly made. Kind of missed all my points though didn't you?
(And apologies, I was editing my post while Sids responded - some of the quotes were from an earlier version)
Tubthumper
08-May-11, 10:29
Actually Sids response pretty much sums up Scotland's present schizophrenic personality.
Pro Scotland/ anti-independence, pro freedom of expression/ anti-expression of dissatisfaction.
Ready to jump on anyone who dares criticise Scotland/ ready to criticise anyone who dares to suggest we could do better.
Prepared to defend the Union as all we've got/ unwilling to acknowledge its manifest failures.
Proud of our woeful sporting history but unwilling to admit that winning something would be better than always getting humped.
Able to conveniently forget that 'Scotland' is the current sum of all who live here (including the English, Poles, Italians etc)
Despite a world-class education, remaining conveniently unaware that our Union has been governed (and our present state formed) by a significant number of Scots
Hung up on our poor standing in the world, yet unable to admit that we drink badly and each too much pies
I think we're bright, friendly, outgoing and modern. If we could only stop being grumpy, ugly, downcast and rooted to the past we'd get on fine.
"Modern, friendly nation, GSOH, smokes and drinks a bit, slightly overweight, some baggage, WLTM modern world for steady upward-looking long-term relationship".
Actually Sids response pretty much sums up Scotland's present schizophrenic personality.
Pro Scotland/ anti-independence, pro freedom of expression/ anti-expression of dissatisfaction.
Ready to jump on anyone who dares criticise Scotland/ ready to criticise anyone who dares to suggest we could do better.
Prepared to defend the Union as all we've got/ unwilling to acknowledge its manifest failures.
Proud of our woeful sporting history but unwilling to admit that winning something would be better than always getting humped.
Able to conveniently forget that 'Scotland' is the current sum of all who live here (including the English, Poles, Italians etc)
Despite a world-class education, remaining conveniently unaware that our Union has been governed (and our present state formed) by a significant number of Scots
Hung up on our poor standing in the world, yet unable to admit that we drink badly and each too much pies
I think we're bright, friendly, outgoing and modern. If we could only stop being grumpy, ugly, downcast and rooted to the past we'd get on fine.
"Modern, friendly nation, GSOH, smokes and drinks a bit, slightly overweight, some baggage, WLTM modern world for steady upward-looking long-term relationship".
Thanks- I'll try to stop being ugly. I don't think the other bullet points are much more than soundbites.
Tubthumper
08-May-11, 11:05
Thanks- I'll try to stop being ugly. Me too. I feel ugly sometimes without actually being all that bad-looking by the way...
I don't think the other bullet points are much more than soundbites. Fair enough, but don't you think there might be a hint of truth in there?
Fair enough, but don't you think there might be a hint of truth in there?
There always is, but I think something similar could be constructed to support almost any point of view.
"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion"
Your man, and Tubthumper, got it right. By the way - not soundbites, but perceptions.
Unless and until those perceptions, positive and negative, are addressed and, where necessary, overhauled, Scotland will remain muttering darkly on the touchline.
Alex Salmond's emphatic victory has opened a huge door of confidence. We can now all look forward to the referendum, which will rightly be used as a bargaining counter with Whitehall. When the day comes, the Scottish people will have enough self-confidence to continue as a senior (and equal) partner in the Union, for the greater good of all.
NickInTheNorth
08-May-11, 11:26
An interesting question John, and a difficult one to answer.
I guess there are 2 parts to adesire for independence.
The first part I guess is the one which initially drives the wish for independence. The heart!
Which is why it is very hard to answer the question posited by Ducati :
I still don't understand why it is even desirable, care to enlighten?"
That is a bit like seeing your best pal totally infatuated with someone that you consider to be ugly, irritating, and just totally "unfanciable". Nothing the pal says will ever make you see what they see.
I think that is the first part of the reason for people wanting independence. And no amount of explanation is going to make it look attractive to anyone that doesn't see it straight away.
The second part of course is what goes on in the head. The examination of the logical reasons why independence is or is not a good idea. The economcs of the deal, the politics, the practicalities. But even then somewhere deep down there also must be the feeling for it.
As someone who was born in England, and who lived there until the age of 39 I could never at that stage understand why anyone in Scotland wanted independendence. After all it was only a northern extension of England, with lots of hills and lochs, and guys wearing skirts, oh and a wee bit of a tourist industry, and they made whisky.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the country from the first time I set foot in it as a teenager, and have wanted to live here since I was 17, but he word picture painted above is pretty much what the English media distribute.
After I finally managed to move here in 2001 I found that in fact Scotland really is a foreign country, in the same way that France, or Eire is.
OK we have a common lanuage, but use and speak it very differently. The core traits at the heart of the 2 societies are very different when you become immersed in them.
Scotland really does still have a stong community spirit, in England as so famously pointed out by Margaret Thatcher, there is no such thing as society.
I never felt entirely at home in England, but have always felt at home in Scotland, I couldn't say why, it is just the way it feels to me.
Do I want independence - the truth is I don't know. My heart likes the idea, my head questions if there is any real benefit. Economically I have no doubt that Scotland could make a go of it, politically there is already a healthy chunk of independence. We have a seperate legal system which works well, our education system, in my opinion is light years ahead of the English one, we could certainly be a member of the EU in our own right (and no, there is no way we could survive outwith the EU, any more than could the UK as a whole). If we were members of the EU in our own right just maybe we could get along with the rest of Europe a bit better,rather than the current semi-detached way that the UK works, all the time trying to be the 51st state.
I don't know if that provides and help or incite into anything, but it's certainly started me inking about which way I may vote if ever asked.
When the day comes, the Scottish people will have enough self-confidence to continue as a senior (and equal) partner in the Union, for the greater good of all.
It's news to me that the referendum will be about a senior and equal partnership in the Union. Aren't they talking about an independence referendum?
The referendum will ask whether or not the voters want Independence. The indicators are that they won't, once they've seen the costs, and what they might lose....I was assuming that common sense would rule the vote, as it has done in all polls so far.
I think everyone will want to see the facts and figures before voting for freedom from England. If it can be proven that we can survive financially on our own I think people will vote Yes!!!!
I will not vote Yes until I am totally convinced that we will be better off.
C3.....;)
Has anyone considered why so many English has move to Scotland - from my perspective it is because the way of life is better. Traditional values are still in society and on the whole there is less crime and it feels a safer place to live. While I am all for Scottish independence to allow the country to continue to be as great as it is - it needs to be done under financial stability.
NickInTheNorth
08-May-11, 11:40
But is "better off" strictly an economic judgement?
But is "better off" strictly an economic judgement?
No but financial stability increases all the rest exponentially. It would be wrong to gain independence for an ideal (as right as I feel it is) when it cannot be maintained long term.
Has anyone considered why so many English has move to Scotland - from my perspective it is because the way of life is better. Traditional values are still in society and on the whole there is less crime and it feels a safer place to live. While I am all for Scottish independence to allow the country to continue to be as great as it is - it needs to be done under financial stability.
Has anyone considered why so many Scots move to England?
People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948
People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577
Table 9A (Scotland's Census 2001 - Statistics on Migration, by Alan D Fleming)
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf (http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf)
Has anyone considered why so many Scots move to England?
People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948
People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577
Table 9A (Scotland's Census 2001 - Statistics on Migration, by Alan D Fleming)
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf (http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf)
Scotland's best export has always been its people, maybe now it will start all over again, when Eck hands are on the wheel of government. Ireland is exporting more of its younger generation at the moment because of its economic meltdown, I think Scotland will head in the same way as Ireland and Iceland and if we go fully independent we will not have the EU and Westminster to bail us out.
Has anyone considered why so many Scots move to England?
People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948
People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577
Table 9A (Scotland's Census 2001 - Statistics on Migration, by Alan D Fleming)
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf (http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf)
Maybe a percieved view of a better life - how many come back? Quite a lot in my experience... The same happens in England - kids go off travelling, in search of a better life, and find that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
But is "better off" strictly an economic judgement?
The economic factor, in my opinion, is the big one.
But there's so many others.
Our political significance in the world. Whereas the UK is still a fairly big player, Scotland would have the political weight of Belgium.
Our powers of veto in the EU/UN/NATO.
Our defence capabilities, not to mention the loss of income from the UK armed forces in Scotland.
Our ability to withstand economic changes, like the credit crunch. RBS has survives because the UK could prop it up. In an independent Scotland, we could not. One of the nations biggest companies would be lost, and tens of thousands of jobs along with it. We'd be on a level with Iceland, Ireland, Greece and Portugal.
For me the negatives vastly outweigh the positives.
Scotland would have the political weight of Belgium.
But isn't Brussels head of the EU? lol
But isn't Brussels head of the EU? lol
'A Committee of Experts deemed Brussels to be the one option to have all the necessary features for a European capital: a large, active metropolis, without a congested centre or poor quality of housing; good communications with other member states' capitals, including to major commercial and maritime markets; vast internal transport links; an important international business centre; plentiful housing for European Civil servants; and an open economy.
Furthermore, it was located on the border between the two major European civilisations, Latin and Germanic, and was at the centre of the first post-war integration experiment: the Benleux. As a capital of a small country, it also could not claim to use the presence of institutions to exert pressure on other member states, it being more of a neutral territory between the major European powers. The Committee's report was approved of by the Council, Parliament and Commissions, however the Council was still unable to achieve a final vote on the issue and hence put off the issue for a further three years despite all the institutions now leading in moving to Brussels.'
Independence is a life goal of almost all living creatures; the right and ability to look after yourself, whilst remaining close to those you love and having the opportunity to help others who are in need.
I think that it is no different for countries. The argument that Scotland cannot fund itself may be a sound one, but surely it deserves the opportunity to find out. History plays a significant role in the psyche of the Scottish nation; the lives that were given to try and secure Scotland's future and the stirring words of the Declaration of Arbroath remain in the forefront of many people's minds:
as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself
The Americans still live their lives by the words set down by those people who secured their independence, but the Scottish equivalent seems to have been lost to time or, in a best case scenario, limited to appearing on postcards and historical television programmes. Yet at every football or rugby match the Scots sing impassionedly that they “can still rise now" and reclaim that independence. Some unconscious yearning is revealed in whatever makes the Scots sing with so much more passion than the English singing God Save The Queen or, for that matter, almost any other country in the world singing their own national anthem.
Scotland is not even tied to its 'mother' country - it is still bound by a union with England that came about in extremely suspicious circumstances and it has watched countries such as Australia and Ireland achieve their independence whilst it remains a part of the “great” British union. But it has the right to be its own country.
It also has the ability to look after itself: I speak from experience when I say that life in Scotland in superior to life in England - the issues that have already been devolved (eg health and education) are so much the better for it. Independence would secure a national feeling of pride and contentment, as well as a nation of people proud to live in a country that looks after its residents.
And just in case I haven't said enough :lol:, here's a quote from James Douglas Hamilton, who spoke out against the union of 1707:
Shall we, in half an hour, yield what our forebears maintained with their lives and fortunes for many ages! Are none of the descendants here of those worthy patriots who defended the liberty of their country against all invaders – who assisted the great King Robert Bruce to restore the constitution, and avenge the falsehood of England and usurpation of Baliol?
Porthos - you can hardly compare Scotland with America...
To me it ulimately comes down to the ability for self determination. I don't care about some romantiscised fake version of Scottish history, you can't live in the past.
Beyond a couple of people who are Scottish happening to be members of ruling governments, Scotland really has no say in the matter. In terms of population we alone can't affect a UK referendum, in terms of seats even if every constituency in Scotland went one way we really couldn't overide the UK government on anything.
As for political significance, vetos etc. Scotland doesn't have any of them now. It's analogous to a relationship, where one partner happens to be powerful and rich, they have a lot of fancy toys that you're allowed to watch them use but never touch them, you could maybe give your opinion on how they're used but it'll be ignored. Also is that it because we won't feel like a big powerful person anymore ?!?
The armed forces, well the US has military bases in the UK, the UK has military bases in Germany. As for armed forces well I'd argue Scotland really doesn't need a large one but we'll see what happens on that front.
You should seriously look at other countries or regions that broke away. The same arguments or variations of them were used there, as far back as you'd want to go the same core arguments are there.
Scotland wants to be part of the EU and I'm pretty we'd get in.
RBS is just a name, If Scotland had economic management of them which we'd never have but regardless the policies might have been different.
To use the relationship analogy again Scotland is like a battered partner who has been told they are worthless and could never survive alone so you better stay with me and so many people buy in to this.
Finally Scotlands 'share' of the national debt, which we never had any say in to begin with. To use the relationship analogy one last time. It's like one partner buying something for themselves to use but putting it in your name and expecting you to still pay for it but not have control of it should you ever breakup.
Porthos - you can hardly compare Scotland with America...
Why not???
Has anyone considered why so many Scots move to England?
People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948
People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577
Table 9A (Scotland's Census 2001 - Statistics on Migration, by Alan D Fleming)
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf (http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf)
Because most of the decent employment and opportunities for our best and brightest were removed from Scotland and placed firmly in the southern half of England. That's why so many more Scots are forced to move south than the reciprocal. Independance would give us the chance to create and keep employment opportunities in our own backyard instead of watching from the sidelines as the Westminster government panders to the needs of its core voters.
Walter Ego
08-May-11, 14:31
Because most of the decent employment and opportunities for our best and brightest were removed from Scotland and placed firmly in the southern half of England. That's why so many more Scots are forced to move south than the reciprocal. Independance would give us the chance to create and keep employment opportunities in our own backyard instead of watching from the sidelines as the Westminster government panders to the needs of its core voters.
Unfortunately, you appear to be wording this as if somehow there was a forced labour march to the Home Counties. The jobs have always been South. Even in Scotland the best paid jobs tend to be South.
When our young people are offered opportunities, they will take them. All the young people I know who have moved South haven't gone South to England for opportunities, they have moved to the Central Belt or Aberdeen. Hardly a drain on Scotlands' future talent.
(Edit) Although I must say i agree with you in as much that Scotland needs to retain as much of it's young population as possible.
You should seriously look at other countries or regions that broke away. The same arguments or variations of them were used there, as far back as you'd want to go the same core arguments are there.
Can you give some examples, similar to our situation?
Finally Scotlands 'share' of the national debt, which we never had any say in to begin with. To use the relationship analogy one last time. It's like one partner buying something for themselves to use but putting it in your name and expecting you to still pay for it but not have control of it should you ever breakup.
The Scottish people had the same say as everybody else in the UK.
You can use your analogies about divorcing people all day long, but, as far as debt is concerned, it is divided equally in any divorce. Scotland can't afford it.
Humerous Vegetable
08-May-11, 14:42
This is a good thread, and a thoughtful debate, but maybe we should wait until nearer the time of the referendum and have heard all the arguements for and against from people who think they know what they're talking about. God knows, the economic situation can change within days of bankers and politicians getting their hands in the till. Who can tell what financial condition Scotland (and the UK) might be in in 2015? Yes, Scotland needs a voice in the UN and the EU Council of Ministers, bacause we are poorly represented by Westminster at the moment. It seems outrageous that, as a nation, we have no voice in agriculture and fisheries for example. I have a feeling that the referendum will be won by whichever side has the most effective spin-doctors.
[QUOTE=Walter Ego;847708]Unfortunately, you appear to be wording this as if somehow there was a forced labour march to the Home Counties. The jobs have always been South. Even in Scotland the best paid jobs tend to be South.
Well, I was forced to move to England from the central belt for employment purposes. I moved back to Scotland shortly after the SNP formed its minority government in '07. (co-incidence? perhaps...;)). At the time, I knew dozens of young Scots in England who had made the same choice to follow the jobs south. The enforced brain-drain in the Thatcher era was a national disaster for Scotland which we still haven't recovered from.
Yes, Scotland needs a voice in the UN and the EU Council of Ministers, bacause we are poorly represented by Westminster at the moment. It seems outrageous that, as a nation, we have no voice in agriculture and fisheries for example.
The UK have a much larger influence over agriculture and fisheries than Scotland ever will. The same goes for other matters in the EU.
I have a feeling that the referendum will be won by whichever side has the most effective spin-doctors.
I hope not. I hope it is based on hard facts rather than spin, hype, lies and deceit.
John Little
08-May-11, 15:17
I'm learning a lot here - don't know about how others feel but you folks are doing the best debate I have seen for ages. Please keep it going - at the moment I have a sense that the desire for independence is an emotional one rather than a reaction to grievance.
Also is 'independence' the correct term or an emotionally loaded one?
We all have 'independence' in the UK but do we mean 'self determination'?
After all, England is no more independent than Scotland within the UK - it is the UK that is independent.
If England were to abrogate the union would that mean self-determination for England, or independence? And from what?
From ourselves? Or from Scotland?
Also is 'independence' the correct term or an emotionally loaded one?
Maybe the term 'devolution' the government uses is less emotive.
Humerous Vegetable
08-May-11, 15:58
[QUOTE=theone;847715]The UK have a much larger influence over agriculture and fisheries than Scotland ever will. The same goes for other matters in the EU.
And I don't know why that would be, considering that Scottish registered vessels accounted for 65% of the weight landed and 60% of the total value of UK landings in (I could only Google) 2009. In which other countries, do you suppose, would an industry achieving 60% of total earnings have no "influence" over policy and funding whatsoever? Another example of mismatched and unequal bed mates? There are 3 in this marriage, to quote another subordinate partner, and the third one here is Arrogance.
Whether or not Independence takes place, will the young people of Scotland continue to seek out the bright lights, and the places of opportunity, where the streets are paved with gold, and where there are hugely attractive delights such as clubs and pubs and giant shop chains catering for the young, which don't look like abattoirs: where there is instant fun just like it appears on the telly, and where the opportunities are limitless, as opposed to just the chance of taking over as 4th apprentice junior cow-poker after Auld Jock snuffs it....?
Independence or no, the young will always be attracted to "where the action is", exactly in the same way as us "wrinklies/crumblies" are happy to face our remaining days with a gummy smile and a wee tear in the ee looking fondly at Caithness sunsets, and marvelling at the beautiful and slow-moving (by comparison) quality of life to be found in this exquisite part of the world....
Now THAT'S going to take some changing! Will Independence help?
John Little
08-May-11, 16:15
Maybe the term 'devolution' the government uses is less emotive.
Ah but devolution does not mean the same as independence and does not necessarily imply self determination in all things.
Which raises all sorts of interesting matters. Both England and Scotland would have to renegotiate entry and access to the EU. Then there's the question of a seat on the UN Security Council, for I cannot see why either should continue to hold a veto.
I see that Mr Salmond has made statements about getting rid of nuclear weapons - so the relationship with the USA would also have to be considered.
And, as someone else mentioned, what if the Union gets thrown into the melting pot, will be the position of Orkney and Shetland? If self-determination within the EU is to rule the game then how would they fare as an independent and potentially oil rich archipelago.
And would the people of the Highlands who are a minority, have to redefine their relationship with the central belt, where most Scots live?
And will the new Scotland be Gaelic- speaking in the end?
Fascinating stuff - a few generations to work it through I think.
We were once a proud Nation, hard working, creative and had lots of clever people who invented everyday things. I can see no reason why we cant again turn our Nation around and make it great, something for all of us to be proud of.
Locally I would like to see Rob Gibson do his best to get Caithness onto the tourist map instead of just a place that people travel through on their way to Orkney. Lets have some tourist attractions so that people come and stay in Caithness.
I hope we have a Nation to be proud of in my lifetime, I hope I live long enough to see it!!!
C3..... :);)
John Little
08-May-11, 16:26
We were once a proud Nation, hard working, creative and had lots of clever people who invented everyday things. I can see no reason why we cant again turn our Nation around and make it great, something for all of us to be proud of.
Locally I would like to see Rob Gibson do his best to get Caithness onto the tourist map instead of just a place that people travel through on their way to Orkney. Lets have some tourist attractions so that people come and stay in Caithness.
I hope we have a Nation to be proud of in my lifetime, I hope I live long enough to see it!!!
C3..... :);)
Now I really am puzzled. From where I sit Scotland is all those anyway. Inventive, innovative, clever, hard working etc etc. You mean more so?
And that last bit!
You mean you aren't proud of Scotland?
I would be.
We were once a proud Nation, hard working, creative and had lots of clever people who invented everyday things. I can see no reason why we cant again turn our Nation around and make it great, something for all of us to be proud of.
Have you ever read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand?
Have you ever read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand?
No, sorry Leanne, I have never heard of it! Is it worth a read?
C3......:)
Now I really am puzzled. From where I sit Scotland is all those anyway. Inventive, innovative, clever, hard working etc etc. You mean more so?
And that last bit!
You mean you aren't proud of Scotland?
I would be.
I seem to be good at puzzling people John, my apologies!!!!
Firstly, I love my country and being worldly wise I woudn't live anywhere else, its a brilliant place to live!
But as you say, it could be better by a long chalk and the list of things that could improve is far too long for on here but some of the things are governed by Parliament. I would like to see us run our own roads, keeping the road taxes in Scotland instead of going into the melting pot in London, our roads need improving. I think we need to bring back manufacturing and start exporting more than we do. Our tourism could be better, our towns need a makeover and updating, our trains and buses should be Nationalised and run by Holyrood. We need to get rid of this poor,fat, unhealthy, idle label that we have. I could go on all day John, as I said, I love Scotland and its people but I hope I will be so proud of our achievements in a few years time, this is our big chance, lets not waste it!!!
C3......:)
John Little
08-May-11, 17:35
LOL! I agree with every word you say- but I apply it to the UK as a whole. You should see the roads down here - potholes or what! I agree on manufacturing, the buses and trains, tourism, infrastructure etc.
You don't have to believe in independence to support every single point you make!
No, sorry Leanne, I have never heard of it! Is it worth a read?
C3......:)
Epic! It got banned in America on it's release. But then again it is about socialism and the downfall of the US, with a love story running alongside it. It's heavy reading at first but gripping and thought provoking.
.
On another thread Ducati said this;
I still don't understand why it is even desirable, care to enlighten?"
I have to say that I share that position. I do not understand.
I wouldnt go as far to say that nationalism is a naturally occuring feeling inherant in all human life but its not far off it. Anyone who harbours thoughts of an independant Scotland shouldnt have to explain in some profoundly philosophical way why they feel like that. They just do. Its a human thing. There doesnt have to be any sinister undertones to being a nationalist. History has taught us of the dangers of nationalism. There are just as many dangers in extreme Toryism or extreme Labourism so independance by way of national pride is an honourable ambition and shouldnt need to be explained in any other way other than declaring you want to live in an independant free and democratic Scotland.
If there's an undercurrent of mistrust as to the aims of independance perhaps John and Ducati will lay their worries on the table now or forever shut up about why and offer an opinion about why not.
John Little
08-May-11, 21:40
I have no worries about it.
I have implied no sinister undertones.
I have no mistrust of the aims of independence. (I don't actually know what they are)
I observe that we are in a particular state and ask why you wish to change it.
That is all.
I have no worries about it.
I have implied no sinister undertones.
I have no mistrust of the aims of independence.
I observe that we are in a particular state and ask why you wish to change it.
That is all.
Because that's what nationalism implies. You cant have independance without changing things. Unless you want a deep and profound discussion about the roots of nationalism, which I suspect would end up back where I mentioned in my first post, isnt it enough to accept that some people desire change and you have to decide whether to support it or challenge it?
John Little
08-May-11, 21:50
If I want change then I usually have reasons.
If people desire change then they should have it.
But I personally would rather understand with reasons I can apply a rationale to. Hence this thread.
If you are telling me that you want to break the union because you want to break the union then I will remain utterly bewildered but would not wish to stop it if that's what you want.
BTW. I dont want to change it but I understand those who do. I dont understand what yourself and ducati dont understand. perhaps you can help me by offering some questions other that why.
From where Im sitting it's not about breaking the union. Its about a nation seeking Independance.
John Little
08-May-11, 22:00
BTW. I dont want to change it but I understand those who do. I dont understand what yourself and ducati dont understand. perhaps you can help me by offering some questions other that why.
I don't know how to say it better.
I do not understand why a substantial number of Scots wish to break up the United Kingdom. I just want someone to give me some reasons I can understand.
It is not essential that anyone do so and it should not stand in the way of vox populi.
I just want to know.
I don't know how to say it better.
I do not understand why a substantial number of Scots wish to break up the United Kingdom. I just want someone to give me some reasons I can understand.
It is not essential that anyone do so and it should not stand in the way of vox populi.
I just want to know.
I offered my first post in response to your question why. Did I waste my time?
John Little
08-May-11, 22:11
I offered my first post in response to your question why. Did I waste my time?
Probably. I don't get nationalism and certainly would not get nationalistic about England or go waving flags. I do not understand that in any way at all.
The dodgy act of union was brought about by a government acting for a member of a Scottish royal house who wished a more direct control over her dominions.
Since then the combination has built the largest empire the world has ever seen, sparked the Industrialisation of the entire world, given rise to achievements in Science, Medicine, civilisation and letters, fought two world wars and been a power which punches well above its weight on the world stage.
You tell me that the reason for breaking all that history up is national pride and I will look at you in utter incomprehension and leave you to it.
If that's the reason then so be it and good luck to youse all.
You tell me that the reason for breaking all that history up is national pride and I will look at you in utter incomprehension and leave you to it.
If that's the reason then so be it and good luck to youse all.
I offered my opinion and I think its an honourable position for anyone to embrace. That you dont understand why others shouldnt embrace the union for the romantic memories you percieve of it is purely personal and of little consequence.
Having said all that I do think there may be people who use nationalism to fulfill a deeper and darker need. They usually stand out though.
John Little
09-May-11, 07:21
I offered my opinion and I think its an honourable position for anyone to embrace. That you dont understand why others shouldnt embrace the union for the romantic memories you percieve of it is purely personal and of little consequence.
I did not say that your position was dishonourable, just that I do not understand it.
As to romantic, I do not think I have been - all the things I have said were done under the Union.
John Little
09-May-11, 07:25
Having said all that I do think there may be people who use nationalism to fulfill a deeper and darker need. They usually stand out though.
I think I do understand that bit - we have them here too but I would not vote for them.
The big advantage of the SNP to me, and why I would vote for them if I lived in Scotland is that they are not peddling a version of neo-Conservatism - which all the others are doing. Unless Labour goes back to centre left policies they will not recover.
But if I voted for them it would not be for independence but their other policies. They put the welfare of the people first. They are not driven by the idea that a healthy economy and business must be bought at the cost of unemployment and misery.
Interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/08/scotland-independence-vote-financial-autonomy though it could split any potential vote.
For what it's worth:
Absolutely Not. Keep the Union. 22 55.00%
Full independence from UK & EU. 13 32.50%
It's Brussel's we need to worry about, not Westminster. 3 7.50%
Where's my cheque for my share of the oil billions? 2 5.00%
40 votes so a 2% turnout of active orgers :eek:
John Little
09-May-11, 11:25
Interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/08/scotland-independence-vote-financial-autonomy though it could split any potential vote.
Good and thoughtful link that. It minds me of the form of Federalism in place in the early days of the United States where any powers not specifically devolved to a Federal parliament went by default to the states.
That could work and could be attractive. There would have to be some form of mechanism to give powers to a central government in time of crisis eg war. And I do not think that a Federal government could be in London.
England would need its own parliament.
I know what it is about the world 'independence' that makes me uneasy. It implies that Scotland is a colony and you ain't. Never were. You would be no more 'independent' than England. Self determination and autonomy is what this is about. A mature, equal and federal solution.
That I get.
And I don't know why that would be, considering that Scottish registered vessels accounted for 65% of the weight landed and 60% of the total value of UK landings in (I could only Google) 2009. In which other countries, do you suppose, would an industry achieving 60% of total earnings have no "influence" over policy and funding whatsoever? Another example of mismatched and unequal bed mates? There are 3 in this marriage, to quote another subordinate partner, and the third one here is Arrogance.[/QUOTE]
Okay, let me put it to you like this. Fisheries policy is set in Europe.
Using your figures, the UK lands say 100 fish. At 60%, Scotland lands 60 fish, the rest of the UK lands 40.
When it comes to the quota negotiations in Brussels, when we're competing with the French, the Spanish etc etc, who has a larger voice? The country landing 100 fish, or the country landing 60 fish?
John, Just think of it as a Teenager leaving the Family nest and wanting to make a life on his own without his Parents. Thats what we are trying to achieve, we dont want to be tied to Englands apron strings anymore but want to go out and make a life for ourselves!
C3.....:)
John Little
09-May-11, 12:57
LOL - Scotland as a teenager! Again that implies that England is in charge of you. We ain't.
That, above all, I don't get. Scotland is a fine place full of grand people and I cannot for the life of me think of her as inferior to anyone.
But hey - if that's what you all want then not a squeak from me.
LOL - Scotland as a teenager! Again that implies that England is in charge of you. We ain't.
That, above all, I don't get. Scotland is a fine place full of grand people and I cannot for the life of me think of her as inferior to anyone.
But hey - if that's what you all want then not a squeak from me.
Perhaps it's a result of the London-centricity of the UK with London happening to be in England, as I've heard similar opinions from people in Wales, Northern Ireland and the North of England.
I've got nothing against an English parliament with a smaller federal parliament that would met periodically on international issues etc. I'd argue that this parliament should small with members appointed by the devolved parliaments (each region allowed to appoint the same number).
It's really not an anti-English thing - despite all of the anti-Scottish rhetoric in the media - I have and acquaintances who happen to be English etc. I'm sure for some people it is but every group, subculture and opinion has it's lunatic fringes.
John Little
09-May-11, 13:18
That sounds reasonable and beneficial to all.
As to the media I take no note of them. Ignorant rantings; they do nothing but damage. It's down to people in the end, not stereotypes, invented history or statistics.
The Welsh and Irish would have to be there too and the Manx. But where to site a federal parliament?
Crackeday
09-May-11, 13:27
Independence would be a disaster!!!! Id rather stay in the union. Salmond would ruin the country, alot of people only voted SNP at the election due to the lib dems jumping into bed with the Tories and not having faith in "new-ish" Labour.
I would hate independence, I cant see one thing changing for the better if we left the union.
Id vote for the Status Quo (insert music gag here ;)) our little toy parliament in Edinburgh doesnt ruin things too much
LOL - Scotland as a teenager! Again that implies that England is in charge of you. We ain't.
In certain ways you are John, who decides what rate of income tax,road tax, fuel tax, vat and loads of other things?....Scotland doesn't, its all decided in London !! We want to run our own country not be governed and restrained from London, if we mess up then its our own fault but somehow I don't think we will!!!
ps, I didn't say we were inferior to England but it is time to fly the nest and let England grow old gracefully !!!
C3...;):roll:
Crackeday
09-May-11, 13:34
We want to run our own country not be governed and restrained from London, if we mess up then its our own fault but somehow I don't think we will!!!
ps, I didn't say we were inferior to England but it is time to fly the nest and let England grow old gracefully !!!
C3...;):roll:
"We" havent voted for it yet, and I dont think We would ever vote for it as the last polls indicated.
"We" havent voted for it yet, and I dont think We would ever vote for it as the last polls indicated.
Sorry Crackeday, When I say WE I mean the Scots who are in favour of running our own Country. Of course we still have to have the vote and you are entitled to assume the result but we shall see!!!
C3.....:roll:;)
Independence would be a disaster!!!!
How do you know that until you have tried it, thats like saying you dont like strawberries without eating one first!!!
C3......:roll::roll:
We want to run our own country not be governed and restrained from London, if we mess up then its our own fault but somehow I don't think we will!!!
ps, I didn't say we were inferior to England but it is time to fly the nest and let England grow old gracefully !!!C3...;):roll:
I certainly did not vote for you to decide what I want and think, I personally want none of the above.
I certainly did not vote for you to decide what I want and think, I personally want none of the above.
Sorry Golach...see post #69
C3......:roll:;)
How do you know that until you have tried it, thats like saying you dont like strawberries without eating one first!!!
C3......:roll::roll:
The problem with that comparison is that independence is a one way street.
It'd be like trying strawberries, finding out you don't like them, then being told "tough, you've made your choice, now you're stuck with strawberries forever".
weezer 316
09-May-11, 14:53
IM sorry, I must be ignorant or something, but the next time I see someone suggesting being part of the union has inhibited Scotland I will scream. You clearly cannot see the bigger picture.
Scotland, and its people, have a monumental voice in the world via our union with the rest of the UK. Who was the last prime minister of Denmark? Perhaps Finland? What about Ireland? What was their policies? Not a clue. Yet, a scotsman was the leader of the UK, and another was the chancellor. Therefore, by default, Scotland had probably the loudest voice in the EU after Germany, and was in control of one of the worlds largest economies. To suggest this inhibits scots, by which I mean scotland, is utterly absurd. Without it, we would be a afterthought in European policy and on the world stage, not a driver as we are at the moment.
IM sorry, I must be ignorant or something, but the next time I see someone suggesting being part of the union has inhibited Scotland I will scream. You clearly cannot see the bigger picture.
Scotland, and its people, have a monumental voice in the world via our union with the rest of the UK. Who was the last prime minister of Denmark? Perhaps Finland? What about Ireland? What was their policies? Not a clue. Yet, a scotsman was the leader of the UK, and another was the chancellor. Therefore, by default, Scotland had probably the loudest voice in the EU after Germany, and was in control of one of the worlds largest economies. To suggest this inhibits scots, by which I mean scotland, is utterly absurd. Without it, we would be a afterthought in European policy and on the world stage, not a driver as we are at the moment.
I understand your point but just because some people of Scottish descent happen to hold positions of power in the UK that doesn't mean Scotland has a loud voice or disproportionate influence. In terms of population or seats as I've said already Scotland can exert no control it can talk and suggest things but it can just as easily be ignored. Scotland can't live vicariously through the UK.
I understand your point but just because some people of Scottish descent happen to hold positions of power in the UK that doesn't mean Scotland has a loud voice or disproportionate influence. In terms of population or seats as I've said already Scotland can exert no control it can talk and suggest things but it can just as easily be ignored. Scotland can't live vicariously through the UK.
And what control will Caithness hold in an independent Scotland?
Where does this seperatism to excert influence stop?
The problem with that comparison is that independence is a one way street.
It'd be like trying strawberries, finding out you don't like them, then being told "tough, you've made your choice, now you're stuck with strawberries forever".
Well yeah but that's an argument for not trying or doing anything, for never changing the way things are or done. If the people saying that Scotland was a net drain on the UK actually believed that, then why not let them go it alone for 5 to 10 years or whatever to shut them up and disprove the issue. If I worked with someone who constantly undermined me, I'd let them take over and fail on some things.
And what control will Caithness hold in an independent Scotland?
Where does this seperatism to excert influence stop?
By that argument what influence does the UK have on the world.
Well yeah but that's an argument for not trying or doing anything, for never changing the way things are or done.
Not really. It's an argument for making the correct decision based on facts. Not just "giving it a go" because we haven't tried it before!
If the people saying that Scotland was a net drain on the UK actually believed that, then why not let them go it alone for 5 to 10 years or whatever to shut them up and disprove the issue. If I worked with someone who constantly undermined me, I'd let them take over and fail on some things.
That's not an option. The referendum won't be for a 5 or 10 year trial period, it will be forever.
By that argument what influence does the UK have on the world.
The UK has a very large voice in world affairs. Disproportionate to our size I would think. Look at our position in the UN, NATO and the EU.
Now compare that to what Scotland would have.
weezer 316
09-May-11, 15:39
I understand your point but just because some people of Scottish descent happen to hold positions of power in the UK that doesn't mean Scotland has a loud voice or disproportionate influence. In terms of population or seats as I've said already Scotland can exert no control it can talk and suggest things but it can just as easily be ignored. Scotland can't live vicariously through the UK.
Well I hate to answer with another question, but what influence do you expect a scotsman with scotland backing him to have as opposed to a scotsman with the full might of the UK backing him?
Infact there is little point in asking because we both know the answer to that question.
Could I also ask you to clarify what exactly is special about the needs of scotland as opposed to the rest of the UK that warrants independence?
The Bruce
09-May-11, 16:03
Firstly I’d rather be poor and Scottish than, well, poor and British. (I was going to say Rich and British, but is anyone richer under this current UK government?)
And why does it have to be a decision of the brain and not the heart? There are enough people in Scotland who care passionately enough about it to make it work no matter what the world throws at us.
All this talk about national debt and RBS being propped up by the UK government, does it really make any difference to you or me?
I’ll be voting for independence.
The ConDem coalition recently announced spending on the rail network, most of it in the south of England. Now that’s fair enough, most of the UKs population is in the south of England, but not 75% and that’s how much of the money allocated for the upgrade is going there. 75%. It’s that kind of things that makes me want independence.
It’s the poll tax being introduced here a year early. We protested and rioted and told the world it was an unfair tax. England refused to listen and when it was introduced there a year later and they protested, only then did the government listen. As equals in this union our voices should have been heard, but they weren’t. We are easily and often ignored. But since then it’s been harder and harder to ignore us, and now, with a majority SNP government in power despite Labour setting up the rules to avoid exactly that, we go from strength to strength. It’s those attempts by the UK government to keep us down, to save power for themselves that make me want it more.
It’s David Cameron saying that he will oppose independence as vigorously as he can that makes me want it more.
And back to being poor. Scottish waters hold oil. We’ll benefit from that. And if the British government can assign a proportion of national debt to us then we can also claim a rebate on 40 years of lost revenue from the theft of our oil.
As for our ability to veto the UN and Nato and the EU, is that all you want to be a part of it for? So you can be an obstacle and become disliked? Surely these organisations are there for us to join and contribute to positively?
And again, using figures to show how many people have left Scotland just demonstrates that we’ve been kept down to the point were there are no opportunities for our kids here because the UK government did it’s very best to sell off all of Scotland’s assets and close the country down during the Thatcher years. The best paid jobs in Scotland might be in the south, but they are still in Scotland! And the young do not all follow the lights to where the streets are paved with gold. I have always worked in Scotland from my first job at 15. I’d rather be underpaid in Scotland than be better paid and live in England. Not everyone is greedy for personal wealth.
But most of all it is the emotional desire to do the Wallace thing and have freeeeeedom. And you can vote with your heart. Your heads job isn’t to decide what you want, your heads job is to work out how to get what your heart wants. As I said before, there are enough great and talented people in Scotland who love this country, and not just Scots. Together we will make it work.
[FONT=Times New Roman]And if the British government can assign a proportion of national debt to us then we can also claim a rebate on 40 years of lost revenue from the theft of our oil.
That is the most nonsensical statement I have heard in this debate.
weezer 316
09-May-11, 16:19
Firstly I’d rather be poor and Scottish than, well, poor and British. (I was going to say Rich and British, but is anyone richer under this current UK government?)
And why does it have to be a decision of the brain and not the heart? There are enough people in Scotland who care passionately enough about it to make it work no matter what the world throws at us.
All this talk about national debt and RBS being propped up by the UK government, does it really make any difference to you or me?
I’ll be voting for independence.
The ConDem coalition recently announced spending on the rail network, most of it in the south of England. Now that’s fair enough, most of the UKs population is in the south of England, but not 75% and that’s how much of the money allocated for the upgrade is going there. 75%. It’s that kind of things that makes me want independence.
It’s the poll tax being introduced here a year early. We protested and rioted and told the world it was an unfair tax. England refused to listen and when it was introduced there a year later and they protested, only then did the government listen. As equals in this union our voices should have been heard, but they weren’t. We are easily and often ignored. But since then it’s been harder and harder to ignore us, and now, with a majority SNP government in power despite Labour setting up the rules to avoid exactly that, we go from strength to strength. It’s those attempts by the UK government to keep us down, to save power for themselves that make me want it more.
It’s David Cameron saying that he will oppose independence as vigorously as he can that makes me want it more.
And back to being poor. Scottish waters hold oil. We’ll benefit from that. And if the British government can assign a proportion of national debt to us then we can also claim a rebate on 40 years of lost revenue from the theft of our oil.
As for our ability to veto the UN and Nato and the EU, is that all you want to be a part of it for? So you can be an obstacle and become disliked? Surely these organisations are there for us to join and contribute to positively?
And again, using figures to show how many people have left Scotland just demonstrates that we’ve been kept down to the point were there are no opportunities for our kids here because the UK government did it’s very best to sell off all of Scotland’s assets and close the country down during the Thatcher years. The best paid jobs in Scotland might be in the south, but they are still in Scotland! And the young do not all follow the lights to where the streets are paved with gold. I have always worked in Scotland from my first job at 15. I’d rather be underpaid in Scotland than be better paid and live in England. Not everyone is greedy for personal wealth.
But most of all it is the emotional desire to do the Wallace thing and have freeeeeedom. And you can vote with your heart. Your heads job isn’t to decide what you want, your heads job is to work out how to get what your heart wants. As I said before, there are enough great and talented people in Scotland who love this country, and not just Scots. Together we will make it work.
Utterly full of holes. Just to summerise:
You suggest juts going for independence, regardless of whether we can support ourselves or not. Perhaps we should also build a gold saltire shaped new parliment regardless of how much it costs too. Im sure there are enough people who would like to make it a reality.
Secondly, Does RBS bailout make a difference to you? Yes, yes it does. The UK govt pumped £500bn into the banking system to shore it up. Thats about 7-8x scottish GDP. We would be Iceland times 10, literally, as we would have had to borrow about £280bn from somewhere. Cap in hand to the English we go. Or the EU. Or we could of course have went utterly bust.
Thirdly, there are huge section of scotland where things like Broadband wasnt economical without govt help. Im sure you didnt kick up a fuss when watten was enabled. Londoners could quite rightly point to subsidising scottish broadband, amongst other things.
Fourthly, if we claim 40 years of lost oil revenue, can England claim 40 years of lost City revenue? And where the hell are we going to find the trillion that would cost seeing as the city of london generates far far far more (about 6x more) than even the oil industry?
Lastly, And most pertinently, you have freedom, huge amounts of it. Dont forget that it was saved by the UK as a whole during the wars, not scotland. And dare I say England adn wales played a monumental part in that.
We argue that RBS bailout and oil revenue either support or undermine the argument for independence but surely the is an equal argument that says RBS may very well Not have got in the situation where it needed to be bailed out if Scotland was independent of the UK because the laws and the practices might very well have been different.
To make a decision about independence we need to look ahead and ensure that systems and regulations exist that make the banking crisis unlikely to happen
here. People talk about Iceland and Eire but Sweden and Norway and other small countries managed to avoid the worst of the problems. Scotland would need to be sure to address these issues.
As to freedom, you are right we do have freedom but Scotland has been denied the freedom to determine the future because of the refusal to hold a referendum. We now have the opportunity to have that freedom and Scots will choose independence or not but the point surely is that we have the choice.
The Bruce
09-May-11, 16:44
The one, There's always one and I guess you're it. Why is it nonsense?
And Weezer, you pick and choose which areas you want to discuss. What about the ones you missed out?
No comments on Patriotism or deciding with your heart and then using your head to make it a reality?
You say we have freedom, but what about our lack of freedom when it came to Scotlands Assets beiong sold off or the poll tax being imposed on us?
No comment on being positive about the EU UN and NATO? You accept Scotland can be a part of it and it's a positive thing?
No comment on some kids choosing to stay in Scotlnad and not being out to earn as much as they can for themselves? I think this is fundamental to Scotlands future and more of our kids will stay here rather than work abroad if we have our own destiney in our own hands.
And as much as the parliament building cost it probably could have been saltir shaped and made of gold. I'm not sure what your point is there other than to try to make me look silly. That's the kind of negative smear campaigning you get from the Torries and Labour in England.
And the RBS might have been a problem for Scotland. Good thing it's in the past and we can all learn from those mistakes and ensure it never happens again eh? ;)
weezer 316
09-May-11, 16:44
We argue that RBS bailout and oil revenue either support or undermine the argument for independence but surely the is an equal argument that says RBS may very well Not have got in the situation where it needed to be bailed out if Scotland was independent of the UK because the laws and the practices might very well have been different.
To make a decision about independence we need to look ahead and ensure that systems and regulations exist that make the banking crisis unlikely to happen
here. People talk about Iceland and Eire but Sweden and Norway and other small countries managed to avoid the worst of the problems. Scotland would need to be sure to address these issues.
As to freedom, you are right we do have freedom but Scotland has been denied the freedom to determine the future because of the refusal to hold a referendum. We now have the opportunity to have that freedom and Scots will choose independence or not but the point surely is that we have the choice.
Mate you cannot base an argument for anything, let alone something as serious as independence, on what might have been different.
Sweden and Norway, you might as well chuck tajikistan in too because none of them have banking sectors as big as ours or even close. Scotlands finance sector dwarfs Iceland and Ireland and they have sizable sectors in thier own right. Hence the reason a comparison is drawn. We would have had to go cap in hand to England/EU and the case for "independence" would have looked even shallower than it currently does.
As for denial of right, please. Up until now a clear majority have voted for parties clearly opposed to independence, so the choice had been made by default. However now that a party which wishes to be independent has won a majority of votes, they guidelines for a referendum must be laid bare. We cannot end up in a situation where 25% of the populace votes yes and it leads to independence.
To make a decision about independence we need to look ahead and ensure that systems and regulations exist that make the banking crisis unlikely to happen
here. People talk about Iceland and Eire but Sweden and Norway and other small countries managed to avoid the worst of the problems. Scotland would need to be sure to address these issues.
That's a fair point, but we don't have a crystal ball and can't tell what the future can bring. Sweden might have done ok during the credit crunch, but what about the next unforseen event? Ireland/Iceland et al have been cited as "models" for Scotland for years by the nationalists. That's all changed because of the credit crunch.
As to freedom, you are right we do have freedom but Scotland has been denied the freedom to determine the future because of the refusal to hold a referendum. We now have the opportunity to have that freedom and Scots will choose independence or not but the point surely is that we have the choice.
The "refusal" to hold a referendum was a decision taken by those who we elected. That's democracy. Those who we voted into power making decisions on our behalf. "Freedom" was never withheld.
weezer 316
09-May-11, 16:52
The one, There's always one and I guess you're it. Why is it nonsense?
And Weezer, you pick and choose which areas you want to discuss. What about the ones you missed out?
No comments on Patriotism or deciding with your heart and then using your head to make it a reality?
You say we have freedom, but what about our lack of freedom when it came to Scotlands Assets beiong sold off or the poll tax being imposed on us?
No comment on being positive about the EU UN and NATO? You accept Scotland can be a part of it and it's a positive thing?
No comment on some kids choosing to stay in Scotlnad and not being out to earn as much as they can for themselves? I think this is fundamental to Scotlands future and more of our kids will stay here rather than work abroad if we have our own destiney in our own hands.
And as much as the parliament building cost it probably could have been saltir shaped and made of gold. I'm not sure what your point is there other than to try to make me look silly. That's the kind of negative smear campaigning you get from the Torries and Labour in England.
And the RBS might have been a problem for Scotland. Good thing it's in the past and we can all learn from those mistakes and ensure it never happens again eh? ;)
As opposed to just avoiding the questions totally?
1: Scotland has the highest earnings outside of London. So your poor argument certainly doesnt stack up. Ever tried to buy a house in Aberdeen?
2: Negative smear from england? You mean like accusing them of theft of oil money? Very honorable stuff indeed, very "scottish"
3: Scotlands assets? I assume you mean oil....or something else?
4: We are positive, very very positive already in these bodies. Its your view of the world thats negative, viewed with a "its the english" set of glasses.
5: keeping people here is clearly vital. I dont think I had to really say it. Perhaps you could elbaorate on how independence will help achieve this? At least if we are part of the UK and they move to england we still receive from their taxes.
6: IM patriotic mate. I want whats best for my country. You it appears dont hence the reason you want independence
[QUOTE=The Bruce;848122]The one, There's always one and I guess you're it. Why is it nonsense?
[QUOTE]
In any split, the assets a debts are divided up. We'll share the debt.
To suggest we can claim back 40 years of oil revenue is akin to a husband demanding 40 years of housekeeping money back from a wife he is divorcing. Nonsense.
Sorry The Bruce, I think you should come out of your re-enactment role and come into the 21st century, Scotland is in the real world now. A Salmond is neither Robert the Bruce nor William Wallace, (more like Mel Gibson), he is not going come galloping down the Great Glen on a white horse to save us from David Dastardly Cameron. he is a politician, and in my opinion he like the rest are tarred with the same stick, he is out for gain, not ours but his own.
The dragons teeth of nationalism have been sewn, I will be interested in what sprouts up.
Fair point weezer but neither should you make a decision about the future because you are scared of the past repeating itself. The future is exactly that.... It is now in the hands of Scotland's people, whether they are Scottish, English or from Mars; black White or any colour in between and I think that it is a good thing to discuss independence, the pros and cons and to have the freedom to make the choice about the country we live in.
I have not decided for or against but I am glad I will have the opportunity to do so.
John Little
09-May-11, 18:34
Can somebody tell me please - what is wrong with being British? I mean apropos of what The Bruce said;
"Firstly I’d rather be poor and Scottish than, well, poor and British."
Is it not possible to be both?
Can somebody tell me please - what is wrong with being British?
Whoever you vote for you cant get a decent Govt for a start John.... I also personally think that England particularly is going downhill fast in the eyes of the world and I for one dont want to be part of a Country that is going downhill! We have a chance to make it on our own, we must at least have the will and the fight to make it work!!
C3......;)
weezer 316
09-May-11, 20:37
Whoever you vote for you cant get a decent Govt for a start John.... I also personally think that England particularly is going downhill fast in the eyes of the world and I for one dont want to be part of a Country that is going downhill! We have a chance to make it on our own, we must at least have the will and the fight to make it work!!
C3......;)
England is going down hill? Really? I would have said in just about every sphere england is an immensely influential country! Its home to arguably the worlds most influential city, both economically and culturally, its home to a football league thats watched the world over, its home of English which is basically pax romana, its culture from its music to its art, and its industry as well as its expertise in things like the Marine and banking industry all make its a hugely influential country, far more than countries of many times the population like Brazil or even India! Yet all some do here is moan about them and how the problems of this country are all Englands fault.
Im sorry but we have far more in common with England than just to be stuck on the same bit of rock. This "we can do better on our own" forget thats we really is great britain, which im sure any forthcoming referendum will show
I want an independand scotland for all the right reasons. its got nothing too do with hating the english or getting over 300 years of being downtrodden and used. Its got to do with the fact we still throw away half of the fish our boats catch, we pay the highest prices for fuels that are on our doorstep, health and saftey. these are all things that are outside a devolved scotlands power, so this is why we need to break free from westminster. If they will not allow us to apply logic then we will need to take controll from the ground up ourselves. There are plenty who dont believe in Scotland, they dont think we got what it takes. ask yourself "what does the union do for us?" look at nations like norway and the swiss! they can do it. why cant we? collective localisim is the way forward.
You use the word influential a lot there weezer, who are you trying to influence? You dont work for the English tourist Board do you? I think you ought to see a bit more of the world before you make such sweeping statements about England and in particular London!
You mention industry, the industry has all but gone now, all the stuff we buy is made in the far east, the Japanese have taken over all our car plants, no steelmaking anymore, no coal mining, hardly any shipbuilding...do you want me to go on?
Murders everyday, knifings, rapes, shootings daily, yes, really influential I would say. How many people are there unemployed, how many on Incapacity benefit, how many children living below the poverty line, how many homeless, how many old folk cant afford to keep warm in the winter? If you are happy to live like this then you vote NO when the time comes.
Scandinavian Countries influence me weezer, I would sooner Scotland were more like those countries rather than our "Mother" country, as I said, its gone downhill and is all but finished as a great nation!
C3.....:roll:;)
weezer 316
09-May-11, 21:39
You use the word influential a lot there weezer, who are you trying to influence? You dont work for the English tourist Board do you? I think you ought to see a bit more of the world before you make such sweeping statements about England and in particular London!
You mention industry, the industry has all but gone now, all the stuff we buy is made in the far east, the Japanese have taken over all our car plants, no steelmaking anymore, no coal mining, hardly any shipbuilding...do you want me to go on?
Murders everyday, knifings, rapes, shootings daily, yes, really influential I would say. How many people are there unemployed, how many on Incapacity benefit, how many children living below the poverty line, how many homeless, how many old folk cant afford to keep warm in the winter? If you are happy to live like this then you vote NO when the time comes.
Scandinavian Countries influence me weezer, I would sooner Scotland were more like those countries rather than our "Mother" country, as I said, its gone downhill and is all but finished as a great nation!
C3.....:roll:;)
Haha! What uttter nonsesne you talk! You know nothing about me, nothing. Whats my name?
You know why our manufacturing went to the far east? Because they could do things cheaper. Good ol you and me would rather pay 5k for a car than 10k for the same car thats made here. Thats why. That has nothing to do with the union or devolution but more market economics. japan hasnt taken our car plants, they built their own! Honda and co are well established and competitive where are most british stuff was losing the battle when it came to competitive prices. Zip to do with the union.
Infact im certain I seen you slag the price of local petrol and accused them of ripping you off on another thread, so it seems HIGHLY unlikely you could care less about locale, be it scotland or caithness, and more about your pocket.
And I wouldnt put such emphasis on the Scandinavian countries. Norway has monumental amounts of oil, more than half of all the oil in the north sea. We simply didnt have anywhere near as much oil. As for sweden and Denmark, they are the heaviest taxed in the world, wiith Denmark no1 of the list. Whilst they have levels of income equality that we can only dream of, I fear people like yourself would moan to the high heavens about the levels of tax you pay, almost like you do about the price of petrol
Im sure you find all the things you mention in every society. Infact i would stick money on the UK being one of the safest countries in the world to live in.
weezer 316
09-May-11, 21:49
I want an independand scotland for all the right reasons. its got nothing too do with hating the english or getting over 300 years of being downtrodden and used. Its got to do with the fact we still throw away half of the fish our boats catch, we pay the highest prices for fuels that are on our doorstep, health and saftey. these are all things that are outside a devolved scotlands power, so this is why we need to break free from westminster. If they will not allow us to apply logic then we will need to take controll from the ground up ourselves. There are plenty who dont believe in Scotland, they dont think we got what it takes. ask yourself "what does the union do for us?" look at nations like norway and the swiss! they can do it. why cant we? collective localisim is the way forward.
Infact here you go: http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?137297-Fuel-Prices&p=825948#post825948
As for the fish, thats the EU. You are not seriiously suggesting we pull out of that too are you???
And for the fuel, you clearly have no idea how the fuel price is guaged have you? Saudis get fuel for pennies as their govt extracts and refines it. Private companies do ours, and so the cost will always be higher as you are paying for their expertise.
Now as for what the union does for us, hows this:
Helps defend us
Gives us access to a massive internal market
Unites us and minimises the chance of a war between us
Allows us to pool resources and share risk
Allows us to share our common culture and heritage
Allows us to access and tap expertise that a small country may not have access to on its own (Cutting edge medicine springs to mind)
Gives us a FAR larger voice in the world. Could scotland get a motion at the WTO/UN/EU through that would benefit it at the expense of say Sweden? Unliekly. Could the UK? Definetly
Access to one of the worlds economic command centers in London
Access to finance at half the cost it would be for a small nation (Ireland paid double what the UK did in Interest rates on the national market, prob more now)
You my friend are a dinosaur. The world is coming together, not moving apart. You belong to the 20th century
Tubthumper
09-May-11, 22:24
Weezer, your bullet points could be applied equally to Scotland in the EU. And i'm just loving the way people suddenly change tack when independence gets mentioned - "World economic metdown, UK finance systems crippled, austerity ahead, we must all tighten our belts and so on"... then suddenly "You don't know how well off you are, UK PLC is strong and great, you'd be lost without it yada yada..."
Why are you so afraid of change? Why is the hoop of the establishment twitching? Could everything that's been said about Scotland suffering through independece be applied equally to our partners in the unsatisfactory union?
This thread seems to be getting rather heated, and quite a bit of 'England' kicking going on, I see London's been mentioned; is that the little city which has twice the population of Scotland?..
I'm English (more or less) but I've been living up here for decades, and after living/working in over 30 countries I do feel 'at home' here..
Blaming England for all it's ills, it might be an idea to look at the following - I was sent this a couple of years ago, and maybe it's out of date?. It's not posted here as an insult, but to put folks feet firmly back onto the ground.
All the counties of the UK have problems, someone mentioned cost of fuel was thorough Westminster, and looks towards Scandinavia; Norway has the most expensive fuel in the whole of Europe.
Independence? I'll wait and see - but don't kill the messenger.
1. Children in Scotland continue to have Europe's highest rate of tooth decay.
2. The rates of suicide in Scotland are the highest in the UK, almost double those in England.
3. Scotland has one of the highest death rates from Coronary Heart Disease in the western world
4. Obesity levels in Scotland are the second highest in the developed world behind the USA.
5. The west of Scotland has the highest rate of drink-related benefit claimants in the UK.
6. Men and women in Scotland are twice as likely to die an alcohol-related death as people in the UK as a whole
7. The number of obese children in Scotland is running at double the UK average
8 Scotland has one of the highest rates of stroke in the world
9 Scotland has the highest overall death rate for cancer in the UK
10 Scotland has the highest rate of deaths from lung cancer in Europe
11 The cancer maps show that bowel cancer rates for men and women were higher than average in Scotland
12 Cancers associated with drinking alcohol - of the lip, mouth and throat - were again more common in Scotland
13 Scotland also had higher than average rates of bladder cancer in women and in northern Scotland there was a higher than average incidence of breast cancer
14 Scotland has the second highest murder rate in western Europe and Scots are more than three times more likely to be murdered than people in England and Wales
15 Glasgow is in fact the murder capital of Europe, with about 70 killings each year
16 Unemployment in Scotland has increased despite a fall across the UK as a whole
17 Scotland has some of the worst rates of tobacco related illness in western Europe, and the highest smoking rates in the UK.
18 Scotland has amongst the worst child poverty rates and the worst diet and the worst dietary illness in Europe
19 Scotland has one of the worst conviction rates for Rape
20. Scottish Drivers have worst eyesight in Britain
21. Scotland is the worst place in the UK to be deaf
22. Scotland has the highest rate of E coli 0157 infection in the UK
23. Scotland worst in UK for attacks on police
24. Legal protection for hate crime on the grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity in Scotland is way behind the rest of the UK.
25. Scotland still has one of the lowest organ donation rates in the EU
26. Scotland has one of the highest prevalences of injecting drug use in Europe
27. About 50,000 people in Scotland are infected with Hepatitis C - double the UK average
28. Pets in Scotland and Wales suffer from the highest UK rates of two major diseases linked to poor diet and lack of exercise, heart disease and diabetes
29. Unwanted pregnancies rates are higher than in most other Western European countries
1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4465000/4465170.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4465000/4465170.stm)
2. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/hsq/HSQ31suicide_trends.pdf (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/hsq/HSQ31suicide_trends.pdf)
3. http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/2438.html (http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/2438.html)
4. http://wishingwellness.co.uk/news/world-news/obesity-levels-in-scotland-are-second-highest.html (http://wishingwellness.co.uk/news/world-news/obesity-levels-in-scotland-are-second-highest.html)
5. http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/alcoholics-anonymous-reviews/2007/05/scotland-tops-uk-for-those-on-benefits.html (http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/alcoholics-anonymous-reviews/2007/05/scotland-tops-uk-for-those-on-benefits.html)
6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6386173.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6386173.stm)
7. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20060917/ai_n16733679/pg_3 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20060917/ai_n16733679/pg_3)
8. http://www.stroke.org.uk/in_your_area/scotland/index.html (http://www.stroke.org.uk/in_your_area/scotland/index.html)
9. http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/news/archive/newsarchive/2007/july/18226486 (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/news/archive/newsarchive/2007/july/18226486)
10. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1875390.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1875390.stm)
11. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2005/07/11/ncanc06.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2005/07/11/ncanc06.xml)
12. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml)
13. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml)
14. http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/scotnews07/070716_murder.html (http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/scotnews07/070716_murder.html)
15. http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogspot.com/2005/09/glasgow-murder-city.html (http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogspot.com/2005/09/glasgow-murder-city.html)
16. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6272000/6272073.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6272000/6272073.stm)
17. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/3190353.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/3190353.stm)
18. http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/schoolmeals/Even_tatties.pdf (http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/schoolmeals/Even_tatties.pdf)
19. http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/news/article.php?id=45 (http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/news/article.php?id=45)
20. http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_scotnews041027.hcsp#P2_91 (http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_scotnews041027.hcsp#P2_91)
21. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/transcripts/yy_20030212.pdf (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/transcripts/yy_20030212.pdf)
22. http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3318597 (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3318597)
23. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3280326 (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3280326)
24. http://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/scotland/information_bank/hate_crime/default.asp (http://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/scotland/information_bank/hate_crime/default.asp)
25.http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1962439.0.Radical_overhaul_to_organ_do nation_system.php (http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1962439.0.Radical_overhaul_to_organ_do nation_system.php)
26. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/07/15074/8613 (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/07/15074/8613)
27. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4295116.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4295116.stm)
28. http://www.ukpets.co.uk/?section=Home&sub=News&method=fetch&item=927 (http://www.ukpets.co.uk/?section=Home&sub=News&method=fetch&item=927)
29. http://www.thpc.scot.nhs.uk/Publications/Annual%20Report01/chap4.htm (http://www.thpc.scot.nhs.uk/Publications/Annual%20Report01/chap4.htm)
Tubthumper
09-May-11, 22:32
So Beks, as you have pointed out above, being part of the Union (I'm not blaming The English) has resulted in Scotland becoming a joke and nothing that's happened as a result of the Union during my lifetime has improved matters.
Scottish politicians in Westminster haven't changed anything, nor have the UK parties in all their glory. Nor have endless initiatives, investments, spin doctors, consultants or witch-doctors. There has to be a point when we say 'enough is enough'. It's time to really look at what we want to be and how we can become it. And if it means pain for our neighbours, then so be it. And I think that our neighbours need to take a good hard look at themselves and see what they want to become.
http://youtu.be/P5aawSdrCMk
From our friend (and fellow orger(?)) Peter Dow.
Tubs you are right. Scotland should be looking to the future and the sort of country we want it to be and the values and society we aspire to and if independence is the way to get there then that is where my cross will go.
You my friend are a dinosaur. The world is coming together, not moving apart. You belong to the 20th century
And you my friend are an Ostrich with your head buried in the sand if you think the world is coming together.
Weezer, why dont you save yourself a load of typing and just vote NO when the time comes, you obviously have no faith in your country or its people and prefer to stay as one of Englands poodles!!
C3......:roll:;)
John Little
10-May-11, 08:43
Well I suppose that getting heated shows the depth of feeling over this matter. I have been enjoying this thread- it is enlightening and informative. But Ostriches, poodles and dinosaurs?
A zoo might pull in a lot of tourists though...
But it's all helped me greatly.
I think Mr Salmond is wrong to think of holding a referendum in four years. There is clearly an awful lot of pressure both ways over this issue and to allow it to fester is not good for Scotland or indeed for the UK.
He should have a referendum now.
I also think that this will not go away; that it should be built into an Act of Parliament for Scotland that there should be a referendum every 30 years so that the next generation will always get its say.
Much healthier and much more democratic.
NickInTheNorth
10-May-11, 09:01
I also think that this will not go away; that it should be built into an Act of Parliament for Scotland that there should be a referendum every 30 years so that the next generation will always get its say.
Much healthier and much more democratic.
but John no parliament in the UK can bind it's successors to do anything - that's democracy for you :)
John Little
10-May-11, 09:02
but John no parliament in the UK can bind it's successors to do anything - that's democracy for you :)
Which is why we need a written constitution. If Mr Salmond can bring that about then he would be doing us all a favour. And a referendum built into a UK constitution would be binding.
weezer 316
10-May-11, 09:57
And you my friend are an Ostrich with your head buried in the sand if you think the world is coming together.
Weezer, why dont you save yourself a load of typing and just vote NO when the time comes, you obviously have no faith in your country or its people and prefer to stay as one of Englands poodles!!
C3......:roll:;)
There is the heart of the issue. Its an identity crisis. You think we are "English poodles"! Im not prepared to risk the future of our country quite simply because you and many like you have an inferiority complex!
And yes the world is moving together. The EU is getting more powerful by the day, bodies like the WTO and OECD organise and foster co-operation and integration on an international scale. Yet again we are far far far more powerful as part of the UK. Nationlists wont be happy until scotland is independent and there is a draw bridge between us and the rest of the world, and we can then sit in splendid isolation from other cultures and blame them for our ills.
weezer 316
10-May-11, 10:03
This thread seems to be getting rather heated, and quite a bit of 'England' kicking going on, I see London's been mentioned; is that the little city which has twice the population of Scotland?..
I'm English (more or less) but I've been living up here for decades, and after living/working in over 30 countries I do feel 'at home' here..
Blaming England for all it's ills, it might be an idea to look at the following - I was sent this a couple of years ago, and maybe it's out of date?. It's not posted here as an insult, but to put folks feet firmly back onto the ground.
All the counties of the UK have problems, someone mentioned cost of fuel was thorough Westminster, and looks towards Scandinavia; Norway has the most expensive fuel in the whole of Europe.
Independence? I'll wait and see - but don't kill the messenger.
1. Children in Scotland continue to have Europe's highest rate of tooth decay.
2. The rates of suicide in Scotland are the highest in the UK, almost double those in England.
3. Scotland has one of the highest death rates from Coronary Heart Disease in the western world
4. Obesity levels in Scotland are the second highest in the developed world behind the USA.
5. The west of Scotland has the highest rate of drink-related benefit claimants in the UK.
6. Men and women in Scotland are twice as likely to die an alcohol-related death as people in the UK as a whole
7. The number of obese children in Scotland is running at double the UK average
8 Scotland has one of the highest rates of stroke in the world
9 Scotland has the highest overall death rate for cancer in the UK
10 Scotland has the highest rate of deaths from lung cancer in Europe
11 The cancer maps show that bowel cancer rates for men and women were higher than average in Scotland
12 Cancers associated with drinking alcohol - of the lip, mouth and throat - were again more common in Scotland
13 Scotland also had higher than average rates of bladder cancer in women and in northern Scotland there was a higher than average incidence of breast cancer
14 Scotland has the second highest murder rate in western Europe and Scots are more than three times more likely to be murdered than people in England and Wales
15 Glasgow is in fact the murder capital of Europe, with about 70 killings each year
16 Unemployment in Scotland has increased despite a fall across the UK as a whole
17 Scotland has some of the worst rates of tobacco related illness in western Europe, and the highest smoking rates in the UK.
18 Scotland has amongst the worst child poverty rates and the worst diet and the worst dietary illness in Europe
19 Scotland has one of the worst conviction rates for Rape
20. Scottish Drivers have worst eyesight in Britain
21. Scotland is the worst place in the UK to be deaf
22. Scotland has the highest rate of E coli 0157 infection in the UK
23. Scotland worst in UK for attacks on police
24. Legal protection for hate crime on the grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity in Scotland is way behind the rest of the UK.
25. Scotland still has one of the lowest organ donation rates in the EU
26. Scotland has one of the highest prevalences of injecting drug use in Europe
27. About 50,000 people in Scotland are infected with Hepatitis C - double the UK average
28. Pets in Scotland and Wales suffer from the highest UK rates of two major diseases linked to poor diet and lack of exercise, heart disease and diabetes
29. Unwanted pregnancies rates are higher than in most other Western European countries
1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4465000/4465170.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4465000/4465170.stm)
2. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/hsq/HSQ31suicide_trends.pdf (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/hsq/HSQ31suicide_trends.pdf)
3. http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/2438.html (http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/2438.html)
4. http://wishingwellness.co.uk/news/world-news/obesity-levels-in-scotland-are-second-highest.html (http://wishingwellness.co.uk/news/world-news/obesity-levels-in-scotland-are-second-highest.html)
5. http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/alcoholics-anonymous-reviews/2007/05/scotland-tops-uk-for-those-on-benefits.html (http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/alcoholics-anonymous-reviews/2007/05/scotland-tops-uk-for-those-on-benefits.html)
6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6386173.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6386173.stm)
7. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20060917/ai_n16733679/pg_3 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20060917/ai_n16733679/pg_3)
8. http://www.stroke.org.uk/in_your_area/scotland/index.html (http://www.stroke.org.uk/in_your_area/scotland/index.html)
9. http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/news/archive/newsarchive/2007/july/18226486 (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/news/archive/newsarchive/2007/july/18226486)
10. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1875390.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1875390.stm)
11. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2005/07/11/ncanc06.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2005/07/11/ncanc06.xml)
12. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml)
13. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml)
14. http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/scotnews07/070716_murder.html (http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/scotnews07/070716_murder.html)
15. http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogspot.com/2005/09/glasgow-murder-city.html (http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogspot.com/2005/09/glasgow-murder-city.html)
16. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6272000/6272073.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6272000/6272073.stm)
17. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/3190353.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/3190353.stm)
18. http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/schoolmeals/Even_tatties.pdf (http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/schoolmeals/Even_tatties.pdf)
19. http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/news/article.php?id=45 (http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/news/article.php?id=45)
20. http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_scotnews041027.hcsp#P2_91 (http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_scotnews041027.hcsp#P2_91)
21. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/transcripts/yy_20030212.pdf (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/transcripts/yy_20030212.pdf)
22. http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3318597 (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3318597)
23. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3280326 (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3280326)
24. http://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/scotland/information_bank/hate_crime/default.asp (http://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/scotland/information_bank/hate_crime/default.asp)
25.http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1962439.0.Radical_overhaul_to_organ_do nation_system.php (http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1962439.0.Radical_overhaul_to_organ_do nation_system.php)
26. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/07/15074/8613 (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/07/15074/8613)
27. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4295116.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4295116.stm)
28. http://www.ukpets.co.uk/?section=Home&sub=News&method=fetch&item=927 (http://www.ukpets.co.uk/?section=Home&sub=News&method=fetch&item=927)
29. http://www.thpc.scot.nhs.uk/Publications/Annual%20Report01/chap4.htm (http://www.thpc.scot.nhs.uk/Publications/Annual%20Report01/chap4.htm)
Clearly independence would solve all of this. Dont you know that maggie thatcher is to blame for the ridiculous amounts of alcohol we as a nation cosume? Its also those fiendish english lads charming all out lassies into bed thats the cause of the pregnancy rate!
Independence will change none of this. We need to address this ourselves, regardless of where the budget is decieded.
I have no complex weezer.................I KNOW we are better than our UK cousins!!!
You seem to think there is safety in numbers, what are you frightened of ? Being invaded by Russia?....;)
I think you have no stomach to live a better life !!
C3.....:roll:;)
weezer 316
10-May-11, 10:40
I have no complex weezer.................I KNOW we are better than our UK cousins!!!
You seem to think there is safety in numbers, what are you frightened of ? Being invaded by Russia?....;)
I think you have no stomach to live a better life !!
C3.....:roll:;)
You know! We are now better were as before we were english poodles. Hypocrisy as standard from nationalists. Make up you mind!
You know the arguments for Independence are far far outweighed by those against, in just about every sphere and it basically boils down to we should run our own affairs because we are a different country. A very very weak argument indeed. Its akin to arguing against marriage on the account it involves 2 independent people who should.
Any retort possibly on the economic, cultural or political implications of independence?
Confused and confronted by a series of posturings based equally on animals and statistics, I am now totally rabbit in headlights - but, through the glare, some truths emerge
a) The Scottish nation already exists as an identifiable entity and going concern, and is highly regarded worldwide.
b) When things go wrong, the Scots (who actually are quite fond of the English as individuals) blame Westminster, representing England.
c) History adds to the rich mix. Old battles are quoted (interestingly, we carry no such baggage with Germany or Japan, and that ding dong was less than a century ago!)
d) Only insecure Scots demand a total separation from their neighbour, England, as seen by polls which indicate the split for independence is 33.3-66.6%, give or take.
e) There should be a referendum. Alex wants to hold it later, because he knows he can screw more out of Westminster if he waits longer, which is a perfectly legitimate enterprise.
f) The costs, administration, counter-charging, infrastructure changes and governance of a stand-alone Scotland militate towards Independence remaining a noble, but unreachable, destination. The dream is much more attractive than the mundane nature of the reality. To travel hopefully is often better than to arrive.
g) The current (and contrived) stand-off allows the English to remain the great and current "they". The "they" are those who "suppress" the lower orders by making them work for money, obey laws, and generally behave within the customs applied by general society. Everybody needs a "they" to blame". It stops them from having to blame "us", or even "me". "They" are ALWAYS to blame. And no matter where you sit in society, there is always someone there to be the "they"!
h) Flower of Scotland contains (apart from a bum note, when played on the pipes) a great misunderstanding "For we will arise now, and BE THE NATION AGAIN". Scotland, we already are the Nation. We don't have to feel second rate. We are the land of world-class inventors, educators, scientists, earth-movers, engineers, soldiers, entertainers, architects, artists exports, the most beautiful scenery in which to actually live, and whisky.
John Little
10-May-11, 10:48
That's a fine post.
The Music Monster
10-May-11, 11:06
h) Flower of Scotland contains (apart from a bum note, when played on the pipes)
Yep! That's what you get for playing a piece with accidentals on a one key instrument!!!
In terms of what I'd vote - I don't know, I've seen nothing on here to settle my vote one way or another yet. Good to see that the usual suspects are diving in with as much ferocity as normal - and when all else fails they're still making personal attacks!
weezer 316
10-May-11, 11:24
Yep! That's what you get for playing a piece with accidentals on a one key instrument!!!
In terms of what I'd vote - I don't know, I've seen nothing on here to settle my vote one way or another yet. Good to see that the usual suspects are diving in with as much ferocity as normal - and when all else fails they're still making personal attacks!
I think this has been pointed out about 8 times before, dont mistake someone attacking your opinion and/or belief or even its foundations with a personal attack. Me calling you a c*** is a personal attack, me attacking your want for independence and your argument for it isnt.
And a very good point pmcd! I wonder who alex would blame if we were independent
Is there anyone posting here who can actually have their minds change or are we all just demagogues.
http://waleshome.org/2011/05/so-why-is-the-union-worth-saving/ - has an interesting take on The Union, with many references to Scotland.
My own take is the UK is worried about losing its seats, vetos and prestige, which is actually quite likely to happen should any part of it vote for independence and EU 'United Kingdom' region be redrawn.
Tubthumper
10-May-11, 12:31
And yes the world is moving together. The EU is getting more powerful by the day, bodies like the WTO and OECD organise and foster co-operation and integration on an international scale. Yet again we are far far far more powerful as part of the UK. Nationlists wont be happy until scotland is independent and there is a draw bridge between us and the rest of the world, and we can then sit in splendid isolation from other cultures and blame them for our ills. So who is to blame for our ills and what is to be done about it? If we've ended up in the rotten state we are as a result of being part of the UK (not due to The English) surely whoever has been running the show is to blame? What if we are tired of the same old crap and want a change?
So what are you so afraid of? Why do you have no faith in the ability of Scots (of whatever nationality) to run their own affairs?
The concept of 'National' is becoming less relevant in every sense but that of an individual's identity by the day. Why must we, as a discrete country, have to remain bolted to any particular other country? If (as has been repeatedly pointed out) our marriage isn't working out and we're sinking into a pit of ill-health, poverty and misery, why shouldn't we look at forming a new marriage where we can flourish? Are you saying that things could only get worse if we were a discrete part of Europe in our own right? On what basis do you claim that, other than your own fear of change?
Why is a relationship with England so important and one with Germany not? Germany has made a pretty good job of re-integrating the old communist East in only 20 years, why hasn't our arrangement of 300 years worked to our advantage?
I'm sure that England could get on OK without us. And you could go and live there quite easily, come back and visit every now and then.
neilsermk1
10-May-11, 12:34
RecQuery, I am still open to persuasion on this matter. On the one hand I see the desire for self determination in Scotland, and on the other the disadvantages for a more devolved, or completly independant Scotland.
Yes I am proud to be Scottish, and in the achievements of our forefathers. However I do not believe I am niaive enough to suppose that Independance will come at no cost. Is that a price I am wiling to pay? well that is still open to debate, and I have not yet seen any convincing arguement on this thread to persuade me either way.
neilsermk1
10-May-11, 12:46
So who is to blame for our ills and what is to be done about it? If we've ended up in the rotten state we are as a result of being part of the UK (not due to The English) surely whoever has been running the show is to blame? What if we are tired of the same old crap and want a change?
So what are you so afraid of? Why do you have no faith in the ability of Scots (of whatever nationality) to run their own affairs?
The concept of 'National' is becoming less relevant in every sense but that of an individual's identity by the day. Why must we, as a discrete country, have to remain bolted to any particular other country? If (as has been repeatedly pointed out) our marriage isn't working out and we're sinking into a pit of ill-health, poverty and misery, why shouldn't we look at forming a new marriage where we can flourish? Are you saying that things could only get worse if we were a discrete part of Europe in our own right? On what basis do you claim that, other than your own fear of change?
Why is a relationship with England so important and one with Germany not? Germany has made a pretty good job of re-integrating the old communist East in only 20 years, why hasn't our arrangement of 300 years worked to our advantage?
I'm sure that England could get on OK without us. And you could go and live there quite easily, come back and visit every now and then.
Hi Tubs, I am bit worried about all this talk of divorce, and marriage on this thread :-))
I take your point about all the negatives with respect to health, poverty etc. I just wonder how an Independant Scotland will resolve the issues. I think you might argue that we couldn't do any worse than the current arrangments, but i wonder why we feel unable to resolve the issues within a United Kingdom framework.
John Little
10-May-11, 13:02
It's an observation made bymore than one that we are in a rotten state.
I have to say that's not my perception at all. We have all sorts of things that work and a standard of living among the top 8% in the world.
If we were like Somalia or Afghanistan or somewhere like that then I could understand - but what sort of rotten state are we in?
The first thing an Independent Scotland would have to do is attract big Industry to provide good, well paid jobs. This could be done by undercutting England's rates of taxes on Business Corporation Tax, local rating taxes etc,etc. I would also go for no tax at all on any company wanting to explore for new oil! I am sure there are lots of ways to attract new business to Scotland. It would also need to boost tourism to make Scotland even more attractive to visitors. On the down side it would also need to weed out all the non-jobs in such places as hospitals, the NHS as a whole,councils and Govt Depts. And of course weed out all fraudulent claims for benefits.
I am sure Alex and Co have some idea's of making it work and I look forward to reading all about them in the near future!
C3.....;)
weezer 316
10-May-11, 13:06
So who is to blame for our ills and what is to be done about it? If we've ended up in the rotten state we are as a result of being part of the UK (not due to The English) surely whoever has been running the show is to blame? What if we are tired of the same old crap and want a change?
So what are you so afraid of? Why do you have no faith in the ability of Scots (of whatever nationality) to run their own affairs?
The concept of 'National' is becoming less relevant in every sense but that of an individual's identity by the day. Why must we, as a discrete country, have to remain bolted to any particular other country? If (as has been repeatedly pointed out) our marriage isn't working out and we're sinking into a pit of ill-health, poverty and misery, why shouldn't we look at forming a new marriage where we can flourish? Are you saying that things could only get worse if we were a discrete part of Europe in our own right? On what basis do you claim that, other than your own fear of change?
Why is a relationship with England so important and one with Germany not? Germany has made a pretty good job of re-integrating the old communist East in only 20 years, why hasn't our arrangement of 300 years worked to our advantage?
I'm sure that England could get on OK without us. And you could go and live there quite easily, come back and visit every now and then.
Again it comes back to you making some incredible assumptions. First of all, we are to blame for our ills! Scotland and its people are known as the sick man of Eurpope. Its not govt policy that has caused us to love chippies abd drinkig until we fall down, its scottish culture. Dare I say it, you and me are to blame.
Change is fine, if it benefits you. Why would you amend a union that has been nothing less than a staggering success? Scotland as part of the UK has a real voice in the world. A massive voice actually, far far greater than it would on its own.
Where do we significantly differ from the English so much that independence is the only solution? I cant think of anything! We have the same ideas on law and order, commerce, believe in a social security system, speak the same language. have the same pastimes with the likes of football and rugby, share a common history stretching back a millenia and are so intermingled the idea of celts and anglo saxons has long since passed except for people in places like here!
IN short, almost noe of the issues mentioned in previous posts have been the the unions fault, so perhaps you cold clarify why leaving the union would fix these?
John Little
10-May-11, 13:29
Scotland, it strikes me, has been a prime mover in UK politics for a pretty long time. Yes its the SNP calling the shots right now, but I had forgotten that Labour had its roots in Scotland too. And the first Labour member of Parliament on the ILP ticket was a certain Kier Hardie, elected in 1892 for West Ham.
Then his successor as the leader of the Scottish miners was Ramsay McDonald...
I wonder if part of the problem here is that Labour has lost sight of its Scottishness?
The ILP seems to have a wider brief; http://www.independentlabour.org.uk/main/
I suppose the line of my thinking goes something like this...
Does the fashion of the times change the way people think?
I mean the likes of John MacLean, David Kirkwood and Willie Gallacher were radicals, socialists, and internationalists. And they had the solid support of the whole of Clydeside and the coalfields.
I wonder what they would have made of the SNP?
Better Out Than In
10-May-11, 16:27
This is a fascinating discussion. Just to set the scene I am English by birth (and mostly accent), I have lived and worked in several countries and lived in Scotland for some 35 years (most of my life) and over 30 in Caithness - which I adore; both people and country. I have some Scottish ancestry.
I am also in two minds - assuming I am even allowed a vote. I can understand how proud it would make the Scottish people but would it be good for the nation?
Scotland makes most of its own laws and is supervised by European law. You could press to increase the extent of this both with and without independence.
Scotland would be finacially independent, sustainable even rich. Would it? From figures I remember from a few years ago Scotland recieved more in finacial support from the UK than it gave (including oil revenues) but the author's admitted after extensive research it was hard to separate out the data as the Scottish economy was so intertwined with the UK's. I think you need to be careful about quoting isolated statistics showing how much better off Scotland would be - you could be misleading yourself. I am sure there are other statistics given the completely opposite picture.
Many of the governing bodies for Scotland are already independent of the UK - SEPA for example. It would not be too difficult to extend this with or without independence.
All Scotland's ills can be blamed on the English and the union. I doubt that's true but I can understand how the presumptioness(!) and dominance of the English in the UK can be so annoying to the Scottish. Even things like the BBC News can be like a red rag to a bull sometimes. Actually many English admire the pride and independence that Scotland has and are jealous.
Scotland would offer incentives to encourage businesses to set up here. Well that goes on now in competition with other nations and with independence would just add England as an additional competitor.
Scotland would have a direct voice at EU (assuming allowed to join), UN etc. Well this is true but my impression is Scotland is already very influential at these conjunctions - such as impact on EU fishing policy. Would being independent from the UK increase or decrease that voice?
Stop Trident. Well many of the English, Northern Irish and Welsh would agree.
Independent defence. Hmmm? Would it be affordable, effective or would we need to rely on others to bail us out?
There are two main things that concern me: (a) how the hell would you unravel it all and to the equitable satisfaction of all parties. (b) And would Scotland be finacially viable long term. The UK as a nation punches above its weight with business and industrial connections that penetrate world wide. A lot of that might be killed off. Look at what happened to Iceland. It went from being rich and affluent to being penniless almost within months. It had no depth, fiscal inertia and diversity to fall back on. Scotland could similarly oscillate from rich to poor.
So I can understand how the heart would want indepedence but could it work practically? Would Scotland become poor or rich?
Just as an aside, as not relevent to discussion, but did not Scotland joined the union in the firts place was because it was broke?
I have listened for years as the SNP have gone on about Ireland and how they manage why do we not hear now about how Ireland manage now and may I also say that yes I love Scotland and would never move, do I want independence no I think it would be suicide but as in all democracies I would go with the majority.
HighlandBadBoyz
10-May-11, 17:30
Run you fools.
John Little
10-May-11, 19:21
Intriguing - but which fools?
And to where?
oldmarine
10-May-11, 20:15
I have found all the postings on this thread quite interesting. As for pride in country I was quite proud of my country, the USA, and fought for her during WW2.
Since then I have become somewhat disappointed in the young people. They no longer appear to have pride in their country. We used to have a strong work ethnic but when people discovered they could get something for nothing the pride in country appeared to decline.
I have read the history of England & Scotland up to the time they became the UK. I have visited both England & Scotland. Mostly Scotland when I worked as an Electronics Engineer at the Naval Base. I enjoyed both countries, but had a preference for the highlands probably due to my spending more time there. I prefer to stay out of the politics but I found people in both places very friendly. I toured both countries with my wife and children. They also enjoyed being in both countries.
I must have been asleep while this debate unfolded.
First of all the Union of the Parliaments was not a union of equals. The Scots were far ahead of the English in that they wished to sell their country - Scotland. To get the highest pirice possible was in my opinion a laudable enterprise. The English were taken for suckers. No sooner has Scotland solemnly handed over the keys to the English at the front door than they came right back again throught the back door.
The Scots retained their legal system, their church, their currency. They got free trade with England's colonies. They were big winners.
But its the psychological effect of this that is so wonderful.
In the next century and a half nationalism became the religion of Europe (and Ireland). But the Scots were never nationalists after the Act of Union - they became Cosmopolitans. And having sold the country once they are quite likely to sell it again. That is the Scottish advantage. The old joke was "how do you recognize a Hungarian? "They are the only people able to go into a revolving door behind you and come out ahead of you."
Nonsense. That was the Scots. And they invented the door!
Well. I've yet to hear any good practical reason/s for Independence. A lot of yerning to be free and hating the English.
Don't think that will cut it somehow.
John Little
11-May-11, 21:28
May I respectfully point out that it will actually cut it - if the majority of Scots want it...
weezer 316
11-May-11, 21:33
May I respectfully point out that it will actually cut it - if the majority of Scots want it...
Oh jesus your right! It will cut it! Scotland is a byword for ignorance sometimes. I will absolutely guarentee you that Alex will spend the next four years yelling about wesminster this and that and how they are shafting us. Im alost serious when I say I hope all they chippies and whiskys catch up with him
May I respectfully point out that it will actually cut it - if the majority of Scots want it...
Yes of course but I'm counting on good sense prevailing....or is that not a good strategy?:eek:
John Little
11-May-11, 21:36
Yes of course but I'm counting on good sense prevailing....or is that not a good strategy?:eek:
Oh come on Duke - this is POLITICS we are talking about here!!!
Well. I've yet to hear any good practical reason/s for Independence. A lot of yerning to be free and hating the English.
Don't think that will cut it somehow.
May I respectfully suggest you remove the cotton wool from your loogs and stick it in your mooth. Works even for tories.:roll:
May I respectfully suggest you remove the cotton wool from your loogs and stick it in your mooth. Works even for tories.:roll:
Yep that's this thread!
Ducati, I am not sure where you see hatred for the English. I don't see that within this discussion. In fact the whole independence thing is not about hatred for English people but a desire to see Scotland governed by the people who live here, regardless of their background, evident in the different languages used in the Oath at holyrood yesterday.
Better Out Than In
12-May-11, 09:22
When this thread started up I thought it would degenerate to become "knocking the English" too and am happily surprised that, on the whole, it is an informed and intelligent debate. Besides its not about the past.
Ducati, I am not sure where you see hatred for the English. I don't see that within this discussion. In fact the whole independence thing is not about hatred for English people but a desire to see Scotland governed by the people who live here, regardless of their background, evident in the different languages used in the Oath at holyrood yesterday.
There is a definite undercurrent. :eek:
The solemnity and affirmation of ritual, repeated according to a set formula, is a necessary and iconic part of the structure of a sovereign nation. Frankly, I "hae me doots" when the First Minister finds it necessary to adapt his oath with a premise: when a variety of languages not understood by all is used to pledge the oath: and when one MSP finds it necessary to behave like a schoolgirl and cross her fingers during the giving of her pledge.
These are NOT the signs of a sovereign government in waiting. It bespeaks petulance and small-mindedness. If at its inception, this government is allowed to "interpret" the rules to suit its own current collective personality, who is to say whether it may do likewise over more important interpretations of legislation?
Apart from that, I'm very pleased that the SNP won, and I wish Alex and Co. well.
If this government wishes to remain popular and achieve its agenda, it must learn to be more adult.
John Little
12-May-11, 14:22
I actually think that if he has the pragmatism in him, that Alex Salmond has created a unique opportunity. By threatening the breakup of the union he has unparalleled leverage with which to remake it.
For all the UK's success and failures we are fairly unique in having no written constitution.
That, it is said, works to our favour because it is flexible and adapts to forces and circumstances.
Yet, with devolution, the very nature of the UK has changed.
The existing state of affairs actually disfavours perceptions of the Union because it leaves Scotland and Wales feeling inferior and disadvantaged.
Whether or not they are disadvantaged is another debate and depends on who you listen to.
But if the Union had a constitution which ensured the maximum devolution of powers to the component nations, with specified powers only ceded to a Union Parliament, then the UK would remain a unitary, but Confederated state.
How would that sit with nationalists in Scotland, England and Wales I wonder?
This (http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/iain-macwhirter/unionists-have-a-fight-on-their-hands-to-beat-independence-1.1100894) is another interesting read on the subject and I think answers and comments on some of the arguments I've seen here.
This (http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/iain-macwhirter/unionists-have-a-fight-on-their-hands-to-beat-independence-1.1100894) is another interesting read on the subject and I think answers and comments on some of the arguments I've seen here.
Interesting article...from another English owned Scottish institution
Really, must we go down the route of cheap jibes and flippant remarks. It can go both ways.
Really, must we go down the route of cheap jibes and flippant remarks. It can go both ways.
Just an observation that supports several points I made earlier in the thread.
I'm sure many Nationalists feel very comfortable in the knowledge that Scotland has (owns) lots of business, infrastructure, institutions. This is far from the truth. For example most of the Whiskey industry is foreign owned along with most of the Salmon farming.
That only leaves Haggis...remember Hall's? Guess what!
Sorry to quibble Ducati, but Scotch is spelt Whisky, not Whiskey, thats Irish or American [lol]
Sorry to quibble Ducati, but Scotch is spelt Whisky, not Whiskey, thats Irish or American [lol]
Abject appols. typo not spelling[lol]
There is a definite undercurrent. :eek:
Ok I just read the whole thing again and I can't see an undercurrent of hatred for the English.
John Little
12-May-11, 18:46
No hatred either way. And the British feel pride at seeing these men too...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-13380011
Ok I just read the whole thing again and I can't see an undercurrent of hatred for the English.
Yes and Rage
Yes and Rage
Would be interesting to know who you voted for Ducati and why you voted for them, pleeeeeeze dont say Libdems, I will give you Lab or Con but not LibDem!!!
C3.....:roll:;);)
Would be interesting to know who you voted for Ducati and why you voted for them, pleeeeeeze dont say Libdems, I will give you Lab or Con but not LibDem!!!
Dont mind telling but why do you want to know?
I want what is best for Scotland. My voting choice is irrelevant to that, that should give you a clue :lol:
Unionist of course.
has the org been infiltrated by the local tory group?
has the org been infiltrated by the local tory group?
aye Rheg, the Tartan Tories [lol] The Snp
Tubthumper
12-May-11, 23:09
The parlous state of politics in Britain as a whole is becoming apparent in the microcosm that is the Scottish Parliament. Having got humped, all three of the other main party leaders have jacked it in, which I don't think is healthy. Particularly when you realise that there simply isn't anyone to fill their boots.
I think Annabel Goldie will be a big miss as an opposition politician, regardless of her hue. Tavish Scott had potential, didn't think much of Ian Gray but hey-ho. I wish to see debate about the future of my Country and I don't think we will be well served by a load of unknowns who have just arrived.
But who would want to be a politician these days anyway?? :confused
You want independence because of glorious stories.
You want independence because someone said cheeky things about Scotland.
The change from what?
Really- all of them? Or just those whom you rant at about your nationalist "grievances?"
Well I suppose so, but is that for or against independence?
Do you blame English oppression for Wick Academy's away record as well? For Stewart Kennedy letting in five? For over-eating in Scotland?
We'd all like those superb things, but I don't see how independence would bring them to us.
Don't know what any of those points mean, but enjoy yourself.
Is that what they call tub thumping rhetoric? Once again, the English people you have managed to annoy with spurious tales of English oppression may say they don't like you.
Very good ineed, well said. I agree with every replying question.
Rage? Hmmm nah lol .... Passion!!! At least there IS some Passion!!!! Maybe the independence debate will ignite an interest in politics in our young people. Perhaps we are so unused to passion and true interest in politics that we are worried and made uneasy by it so it is easier to write it off as negative emotions like rage or anti English behaviour than accept it.
It might even be exciting!!!
Very good ineed, well said. I agree with every replying question.
There seems to be a lot of sore losers posting on this thread, get over it, the best party won. If they dont perform then they will be kicked out at the next election!!
And anybody who thought the LibDems were in with a chance were living in cuckoo land!!
C3.....:roll:;)
Corrie 3, keep banging your tamborine, you may believe they are the best party, not everyone agrees, I look forward to seeing A Salmond making his first mistake. [lol] And he will.
Corrie 3, keep banging your tamborine, you may believe they are the best party, not everyone agrees, I look forward to seeing A Salmond making his first mistake. [lol] And he will.
Of course he will make mistakes Golach, there isnt a person alive that doesnt....As long as he doesnt make as many as Cameron & Clegg he will be fine!!!
C3...:roll:;)
weezer 316
13-May-11, 11:27
What mistakes would they be corrie?
*Sigh* this thread is degenerating... All people make mistakes, no one is without error.
John Little
13-May-11, 12:07
I think the point about mistakes is worth thinking about.
Why has support for the old parties slumped? Is it because most Scots want Independence?
Certainly at the moment the opinion polls indicate not - though that may change.
It follows that the main reason that the other parties slumped is because they have made grave mistakes and lost support.
The SNP is fresh and new, but if they make mistakes then their support too may slump. They have to deliver.
And also the other parties may revive their fortunes. We shall see.
NickInTheNorth
13-May-11, 12:16
Just to take things on a slightly different tangent, the thread title is Why independence?
Let's take a slightly different perspective on that, and think about the fact that Scotland has a proud independent history dating back hundreds of years, which was negotiated away by a small minority in the early 1700's. As a result of that Scotland lost the abilty to make it's own laws and in general do as it liked. It was ruled by people far away that did not fully understand the needs of the people being ruled.
Now let us fast forward to the 1970's - the United Kingdom had it's freedoms and independence negotiated away by a small group of politicians, they lost the ability to creae their own laws, it was ruled by a small group of people from far away, people who did not fully understand the hopes and desires, and intrinsic beliefs of the citizens of the UK.
There are many that call for the UK to leave the EU, many of those same people cannot understand the desire of some Scottish People for independence.
Is that because as the senior partner in the UK the people of England do not fully understand the way in which the English sensibilities can impinge on the freedom of the Scots to lead their lives as they wish...
John Little
13-May-11, 12:20
Interesting points - what I was saying about a constitution had that in my mind. There should be no 'senior' partner in the Union and perhaps that is the nub of the problem.
Interesting points - what I was saying about a constitution had that in my mind. There should be no 'senior' partner in the Union and perhaps that is the nub of the problem.
Well I suppose you could call England a de facto senior partner in that it can out vote Scotland in a popular vote and has more seats in parliament.
weezer 316
13-May-11, 13:44
Just to take things on a slightly different tangent, the thread title is Why independence?
Let's take a slightly different perspective on that, and think about the fact that Scotland has a proud independent history dating back hundreds of years, which was negotiated away by a small minority in the early 1700's. As a result of that Scotland lost the abilty to make it's own laws and in general do as it liked. It was ruled by people far away that did not fully understand the needs of the people being ruled.
Now let us fast forward to the 1970's - the United Kingdom had it's freedoms and independence negotiated away by a small group of politicians, they lost the ability to creae their own laws, it was ruled by a small group of people from far away, people who did not fully understand the hopes and desires, and intrinsic beliefs of the citizens of the UK.
There are many that call for the UK to leave the EU, many of those same people cannot understand the desire of some Scottish People for independence.
Is that because as the senior partner in the UK the people of England do not fully understand the way in which the English sensibilities can impinge on the freedom of the Scots to lead their lives as they wish...
Think I asked this a few posts ago, but ill do it again for the crack. Could you point out where England has infringed on the freedom of scots to lead their lives as they wish? A practical example please, not idealogical thetoric
NickInTheNorth
13-May-11, 15:46
well lets start with the Dress Act of 1746...
weezer 316
13-May-11, 15:54
Perhaps I should have added the caveat that it had to be relevant to todays, or even yesterdays population! Im sure that was repealed about 250 years ago and has no bearing on modern independence aspirants.
well lets start with the Dress Act of 1746...
do you mean the Act of Proscription 1747? That did not cover the majority of Scotland at the time, only the Highlands. The Lowland Scots wanted the act as well as the Westminster Government of the time, we sold out our Scottish Parliament 1707, so it was not a purely English thing.
I have to agree that having to troll up stuff from 300 years ago as a reason to break up the Union seems just plain silly.
Wow! I don’t log on for a couple of days and this thread has grown arms and legs. It makes really interesting reading – took me ages to catch up and I didn’t even click on all the links.
Just a couple of thoughts to add to the already well argued (for the most part) discussion.....
I reckon that the SNP gained their majority, not because the voters are keen to achieve independence but, due mainly to:
1. The protest vote against the LibDems.
Helped by:
2. The financial carrots which (I think) the previous minority SNP administration had introduced: free university education, free prescriptions, freezing council tax,etc, etc ...... (Were the votes bought?)
And with
3. The reassurance that independence would not be forced upon us but a referendum would be held.
What had the electorate to lose?
I reckon that # 1 above is a temporary blip and #2 is courtesy of Barnett and hard to imagine being sustainable should independence ever become a reality.
#3, whilst being expensive and time consuming, will get the subject dealt with for the foreseeable future.
Someone mentioned somewhere (another thread?) that the independence Q should have been included in the census in order to encourage voter participation. Ok, too late for that but, I do believe there should be an element of compulsion about this referendum in order for it to be ‘put to bed’. A low turn out would see it being raised again and again.
That's me. :)
weezer 316
13-May-11, 21:55
Wow! I don’t log on for a couple of days and this thread has grown arms and legs. It makes really interesting reading – took me ages to catch up and I didn’t even click on all the links.
Just a couple of thoughts to add to the already well argued (for the most part) discussion.....
I reckon that the SNP gained their majority, not because the voters are keen to achieve independence but, due mainly to:
1. The protest vote against the LibDems.
Helped by:
2. The financial carrots which (I think) the previous minority SNP administration had introduced: free university education, free prescriptions, freezing council tax,etc, etc ...... (Were the votes bought?)
And with
3. The reassurance that independence would not be forced upon us but a referendum would be held.
What had the electorate to lose?
I reckon that # 1 above is a temporary blip and #2 is courtesy of Barnett and hard to imagine being sustainable should independence ever become a reality.
#3, whilst being expensive and time consuming, will get the subject dealt with for the foreseeable future.
Someone mentioned somewhere (another thread?) that the independence Q should have been included in the census in order to encourage voter participation. Ok, too late for that but, I do believe there should be an element of compulsion about this referendum in order for it to be ‘put to bed’. A low turn out would see it being raised again and again.
That's me. :)
Well said Carole. I do think some populist polices, particularly the freezing of council, would tax, wouldnt be sustainable in the long run, although you can see why people votes for them.
And the independence referendum need , I would say, a 75% turn out, with two thirds, a clear majority, voting for independence. Anything less and the result should be either annulled or put to a new vote
Shabbychic
14-May-11, 11:29
Don't you think we are putting the cart before the horse here? At the moment the new Scotland Bill is the issue at hand.
What are the views on devolving further financial responsibility, more tax and borrowing powers, and corporation tax?
Well said Carole. I do think some populist polices, particularly the freezing of council, would tax, wouldnt be sustainable in the long run, although you can see why people votes for them.
And the independence referendum need , I would say, a 75% turn out, with two thirds, a clear majority, voting for independence. Anything less and the result should be either annulled or put to a new vote
Why would the Scottish voter bother to vote against the Lib/Dem when so few have voted for them in the past.Scotland is fortunate in having an alternative party to give a posative vote too and that is what thay have done.
Rather insulting to say that the Scottish people are being bribed to vote for the SNP obviously you hae a very low opinion of the Scottish voter.
I laughed at your thought of the Scottish voter needing reasurrance about anything and certianly not a referendum, the Scottish people are capable of thinking and making their choices and this is what they have done in voting for the SNP. I
I originally posted this in the Alex's hole thread, but better here.....
Here's a thought. Maybe we don't really want Independence from the Union. But just England.
Perhaps we should join with Wales and Northern Island to kick England out the Union :mad:
And let's not let the debate fisle out, it is important, we are looking for reasons to break up the Union!
Technically Wales or Northern Ireland aren't mentioned in the Union agreement, they've just been co-opted.
Oh a protest vote I see, that explains it all (!)
I see no objection to a federal union where the 4 nations send equal numbers of MPs to parliament. Four equal nations coming together and speaking as one.
I originally posted this in the Alex's hole thread, but better here.....
Here's a thought. Maybe we don't really want Independence from the Union. But just England.
Perhaps we should join with Wales and Northern Island to kick England out the Union :mad:
And let's not let the debate fisle out, it is important, we are looking for reasons to break up the Union!
I think that for the majority of Scottish people England is irrelevent when it comes to wanting a referendom of self determination and Scotland is not looking for reasons to break up the union it already has one. lol .
I think that for the majority of Scottish people England is irrelevent when it comes to wanting a referendom of self determination and Scotland is not looking for reasons to break up the union it already has one. lol .
Yes, apparently so, what is it?
If the Irish model is anything to go by, we, as an independent nation can expect a state visit from a British monarch in about 150 years :eek:
If the Irish model is anything to go by, the British Monarch will align his/her visit with a massive injection of bale-out cash to keep the "Independent Sovereign State" of Scotland a going concern.........
If the Irish model is anything to go by, the British Monarch will align his/her visit with a massive injection of bale-out cash to keep the "Independent Sovereign State" of Scotland a going concern.........
Yes you'd think £7 1/2 Billion would warrant a curtsy :lol:
weezer 316
17-May-11, 15:06
I see no objection to a federal union where the 4 nations send equal numbers of MPs to parliament. Four equal nations coming together and speaking as one.
This obviously isnt a valid option. England has 50 million people, we have 5. By default they should have 10 times the number of mps we have. Any less and our MP's have less workload.
This obviously isnt a valid option. England has 50 million people, we have 5. By default they should have 10 times the number of mps we have. Any less and our MP's have less workload.
So the UK has a population of 60 million and Latvia has 2.2 million but both have one vote in the EU and China accounts for 25% of the world's population and has only one vote like other small countries at the UN, so how does that work OK for those circumstances but not for the UK Union?
weezer 316
17-May-11, 16:11
So the UK has a population of 60 million and Latvia has 2.2 million but both have one vote in the EU and China accounts for 25% of the world's population and has only one vote like other small countries at the UN, so how does that work OK for those circumstances but not for the UK Union?
I think you are being confused by multinational organisations like the ones you mention, and a parliment representing individual areas of a country.
The UN representitives are pursuing their governments policy in that arena, not directly representing you and I in the same way your MP does. Furthermore, at the European level, the UK has many times the number of MEP's compared to Latvia, and bare in mind we are talking about parlimentary representation.
Yes, apparently so, what is it?
Scotland is not an area of district of another country it is a nation and as such may want to return to be that fully again.
I think you are being confused by multinational organisations like the ones you mention, and a parliment representing individual areas of a country.
The UN representitives are pursuing their governments policy in that arena, not directly representing you and I in the same way your MP does. Furthermore, at the European level, the UK has many times the number of MEP's compared to Latvia, and bare in mind we are talking about parlimentary representation.
Does that not then make Westminster a multinational organisation when it is comprised of seperate nations? You use the term UK which in itself says United KIngdoms.........
weezer 316
17-May-11, 16:42
Does that not then make Westminster a multinational organisation when it is comprised of seperate nations? You use the term UK which in itself says United KIngdoms.........
I can only assume you dont understand the difference between a body such as the UN and a parliament such as westminster. Being multinational is not the defining criteria when deciding the number of representitives.
Would you for instance say that caithness should have the same number of representitives at the scottish parliment as Glasgow?
I can only assume you dont understand the difference between a body such as the UN and a parliament such as westminster. Being multinational is not the defining criteria when deciding the number of representitives.
Would you for instance say that caithness should have the same number of representitives at the scottish parliment as Glasgow?
I would not consider comparing the UN with Westminster as you tried to do but as you chose to say one was international and the other was not I really had to point out your error.
I don''t bite with your silly questions lol but they do make me laugh.
Alex the fish has just pronounced that independence is almost inevitable. Pretty gung ho considering 3/4 of Scots are against it. :roll:
He's just reeling after the recent election!
Another good article: http://politics.caledonianmercury.com/2011/05/17/independence-referendum-8%C2%BD-tips-for-the-yes-campaign/
On a side note: I particularly like how people assume the electorate are stupid and didn't know what they were voting for or how it all has to be a protest vote.
Alex the fish has just pronounced that independence is almost inevitable. Pretty gung ho considering 3/4 of Scots are against it. :roll:
Not read those figures where did you find them?
Not read those figures where did you find them?
BBC News, to be fair, between 2/3 and 3/4 or 66 and 75% if you prefer.
Another good article: http://politics.caledonianmercury.com/2011/05/17/independence-referendum-8%C2%BD-tips-for-the-yes-campaign/
On a side note: I particularly like how people assume the electorate are stupid and didn't know what they were voting for or how it all has to be a protest vote.
A very good article and one that I hope sets the tone for the future.
Put another way, Salmond has only got to persuade ~20% of the people of Scotland over 18 to change their minds in less than 4 years and most people's view will be mostly influenced by the SNP's track record over that period.
I just realised that (on average) the same people opposed to Scottish independence are the same people who were against AV and in favour of a monarchy. Not sure what this correlation means if anything I just found it interesting.
In keeping with my recent habit of posting articles: I found these interesting
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Joan-McAlpine-A-sea-change.6769405.jp - This one has some sort of local relevance as it mentions John Thurso.
I just saw a BBC News 24 story that said 90% of people think that I should be declared supreme overlord, but you only have my word for it as I've provided no link or raw data.
If the last was a snipe at me, I find links really, really irritating as I never look at them so I don't post them :lol: not often anyway.
It is interesting that the same people for AV, Monarchy amd not Independence blah blah. You could equally say the reverse.
I expect that the status quo is always more popular. (they were a good band).
Kells:Why would the Scottish voter bother to vote against the Lib/Dem when so few have
voted for them in the past.Scotland is fortunate in having an alternative party
to give a posative vote too and that is what thay have done.
Agreed. Scotland is fortunate to have an alternative party. Especially one which produces populist policies.
Kells: Rather insulting to say that the Scottish people are being bribed to vote for
the SNP obviously you hae a very low opinion of the Scottish voter.
How come? Parties have 'bribed' voters since ........ well, guess my Mum would say 'Pa was a boy'. Nothing new in that.
Kells: I laughed at your thought of the Scottish voter needing reasurrance about
anything and certianly not a referendum, the Scottish people are capable of
thinking and making their choices and this is what they have done in voting for
the SNP. I
Although, I didn't vote for the SNP, I felt - and still do - reassured that we are not sleepwalking into an independant state. My opinion. Pleased you got a laugh out of it. Having just had a quick catch up I see I am not the only one who is making you merry. Enjoy!
I just realised that (on average) the same people opposed to Scottish independence are the same people who were against AV and in favour of a monarchy. Not sure what this correlation means if anything I just found it interesting.
In keeping with my recent habit of posting articles: I found these interesting
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Joan-McAlpine-A-sea-change.6769405.jp - This one has some sort of local relevance as it mentions John Thurso.
I just saw a BBC News 24 story that said 90% of people think that I should be declared supreme overlord, but you only have my word for it as I've provided no link or raw data.
An other interesting article and lets hope the SNP can achieve this as it would benifit the local area and the Lib/Dem have been on the ball in picking this one up.
If you say so then it must be right and let us know when you are declared the supreme overlord. lol tsk tsk me being amused again.
Agreed. Scotland is fortunate to have an alternative party. Especially one which produces populist policies.
How come? Parties have 'bribed' voters since ........ well, guess my Mum would say 'Pa was a boy'. Nothing new in that.
Although, I didn't vote for the SNP, I felt - and still do - reassured that we are not sleepwalking into an independant state. My opinion. Pleased you got a laugh out of it. Having just had a quick catch up I see I am not the only one who is making you merry. Enjoy!
I do agree that we are not sleepwalking into becoming an independant state, but I do hope that if it is right for Scotland we can return to being a nation that controls our own affairs. There are certianly a few posts that make me laugh and I am sure I will continue to enjoy this forum thank you.
Q&A's about an English parliament, works both ways.. interesting points
Sorry 'bout the link
1. What's the point of an English Parliament in the first place? Why bother?
2. But don't we already have an English Parliament at Westminster?
3. But hasn't Scottish and Welsh devolution essentially made the British Parliament an English one?
4. Why do we need an English parliament?
5. What is England's constitutional position?
Onto 18...
http://www.politics.co.uk/opinion-formers/Campaign-for-an-English-Parliament/faqs-$479240$2.htm (http://www.politics.co.uk/opinion-formers/Campaign-for-an-English-Parliament/faqs-$479240$2.htm)
weezer 316
18-May-11, 13:18
I do agree that we are not sleepwalking into becoming an independant state, but I do hope that if it is right for Scotland we can return to being a nation that controls our own affairs. There are certianly a few posts that make me laugh and I am sure I will continue to enjoy this forum thank you.
Please. Ask yourself this question. What is in scotlands interests? Remain part of the union or become independent? There are many spheres to discuss, and in almost all the union is in scotlands interests. A vague "we should run our own affairs" doesnt cut it im afraid, we are in the real world after all.
Please. Ask yourself this question. What is in scotlands interests? Remain part of the union or become independent? There are many spheres to discuss, and in almost all the union is in scotlands interests. A vague "we should run our own affairs" doesnt cut it im afraid, we are in the real world after all.
I dont think a statement such as "We should run our own affairs" is vague at all Weezer............Does your next door neighbour run your affairs at home????...No, of course not so why should Scotland let it's neighbour run its affairs????
C3......:roll:;)
I dont think a statement such as "We should run our own affairs" is vague at all Weezer............Does your next door neighbour run your affairs at home????...No, of course not so why should Scotland let it's neighbour run its affairs????
C3......:roll:;)
This is where I see the whole perception of what happens now, and what should happen in the future appears to be misunderstood.
I understand that Scotland's affairs are the UK's affairs, England's affairs are the UK's affairs, Wale's affairs are the UK's affairs NI's affairs are the UK's affairs.
You corrie3, have had a comprehensive selling job done on you.:eek:
weezer 316
18-May-11, 15:32
I dont think a statement such as "We should run our own affairs" is vague at all Weezer............Does your next door neighbour run your affairs at home????...No, of course not so why should Scotland let it's neighbour run its affairs????
C3......:roll:;)
Well this is the point exactly, our neighbour doenst run our affairs! We are in a marriage where we share responsibilty.
Please. Ask yourself this question. What is in scotlands interests? Remain part of the union or become independent? There are many spheres to discuss, and in almost all the union is in scotlands interests. A vague "we should run our own affairs" doesnt cut it im afraid, we are in the real world after all.
Why do you prssume that I have not asked myslef these questions or perhaps still asking them, because I do not hold the same opinion as you does not mean I have given it less thought or gained as much knowledge as you.
Well this is the point exactly, our neighbour doenst run our affairs! We are in a marriage where we share responsibilty.
It is a political union that may perhaps no longer be acceptable to the Scottish people. The people will decide when they vote if they consider the union best serves the interests of Scotland or if they wish to run their own affairs without having to share resposabilty within the UK.
John Little
18-May-11, 16:13
Interesting conundrum though. Most people voted against AV.
FPTP suits the Conservative Party for it helps them stay in power.
The Conservative and Unionist party will never agree to Scottish Independence whereas Lab or Lib might.
It seems to me that the best chance of getting independence smoothly through the UK parliament is for people to go for PR for UK elections, same as in Scotland.
This is where I see the whole perception of what happens now, and what should happen in the future appears to be misunderstood.
I understand that Scotland's affairs are the UK's affairs, England's affairs are the UK's affairs, Wale's affairs are the UK's affairs NI's affairs are the UK's affairs.
You corrie3, have had a comprehensive selling job done on you.:eek:
You understand correctly and if the people of Scotland do not like the way the UK runs Scotland affairs then it will vote to leave the UK. The SNP are not a new party in Scotland but they have gained general support as the party that the people want to take Scotland forward instead of the Labour Party.
You understand correctly and if the people of Scotland do not like the way the UK runs Scotland affairs then it will vote to leave the UK. The SNP are not a new party in Scotland but they have gained general support as the party that the people want to take Scotland forward instead of the Labour Party.
You're doing it now, Scotland, as part of the UK runs it's own affairs :roll::lol:
A bit of a giggle but it is in the interests of the independists to keep this kind of language and perception to the fore, imho it is a con.
Scotland has 59 MPs, of all parties, in the House of Commons.
weezer 316
18-May-11, 16:56
You're doing it now, Scotland, as part of the UK runs it's own affairs :roll::lol:
A bit of a giggle but it is in the interests of the independists to keep this kind of language and perception to the fore, imho it is a con.
Its hopeless. I dont think they understand that scotland actually has a say in its own affairs as part fo the UK. They seem to think scotland and the UK are fundamentaly different when scotland is part of the UK. If they understood it, they wouldnt vote for independence likely.
weezer 316
18-May-11, 16:57
Why do you prssume that I have not asked myslef these questions or perhaps still asking them, because I do not hold the same opinion as you does not mean I have given it less thought or gained as much knowledge as you.
Kells, well lets lay it out, as Alex will have to, where it is in our benefit to leave the union.......and where we are better off in the union.
Well this is the point exactly, our neighbour doenst run our affairs! We are in a marriage where we share responsibilty.
Of course Parliament runs our affairs, ok, slowly we are gaining some ground with our Scottish Parliament but not enough in my opinion. Only when the Scots have full control over everything will I be happy. When we can set our own taxes, set our own spending, when we dont have to adhere to the laws and rules made in London...Thats what it is all about or havent you grasped that yet?
C3....:roll:;)
You corrie3, have had a comprehensive selling job done on you.:eek:
Yes and they didnt even have to try hard Ducati.....None of the other parties could sell me their idea's so why would I have voted for something I dont want???
C3....:roll:;)
Of course Parliament runs our affairs, ok, slowly we are gaining some ground with our Scottish Parliament but not enough in my opinion. Only when the Scots have full control over everything will I be happy. When we can set our own taxes, set our own spending, when we dont have to adhere to the laws and rules made in London...Thats what it is all about or havent you grasped that yet?
C3....:roll:;)
AAAAAGGGHHH What do you think the 59 Scottish MPs are doing in the House of Commons?
weezer 316
18-May-11, 17:38
Of course Parliament runs our affairs, ok, slowly we are gaining some ground with our Scottish Parliament but not enough in my opinion. Only when the Scots have full control over everything will I be happy. When we can set our own taxes, set our own spending, when we dont have to adhere to the laws and rules made in London...Thats what it is all about or havent you grasped that yet?
C3....:roll:;)
Yes but....but.....but.....but.....we set the rules in london!! Alongside English MPs! Where, and I would like an answer this time, doe we diverge so much from english views on anything that full independence is the only solution?
AAAAAGGGHHH What do you think the 59 Scottish MPs are doing in the House of Commons?
Not a lot for Scotland that is for sure, and seeing that most of them are Labour or LibDems they arent going to do anything for Scotland are they?..They are just going to tow the party line. Tory, Labour, LibDem....same old, same old...same old promises, same old lies and just as Ken Clarke has shown...same old stupidity.
I am sorry but England isnt my Country, I want to be governed by Scottish people in a Scottish parliament in our Capital city!!....Just tell me what John Thurso has done for the people up here while he has been our elected MP, nothing as far as I can see. He is yet another who has jumped on the Westminster gravy train.
C3.....:roll:;)
Yes but....but.....but.....but.....we set the rules in london!! Alongside English MPs! Where, and I would like an answer this time, doe we diverge so much from english views on anything that full independence is the only solution?
How the heck can WE set the rules in London????? Seeing as the Govt is Tory how many Scots MP's have power at the moment??? We are being governed by English Eton educated Tory Boys...Dont demand answers from me weezer, I am not your monkey that jumps when you say jump, if you read again you have had your answer...When we control our own spending, taxes and make all our own rules and laws!!
C3.......:roll::roll:
Not a lot for Scotland that is for sure, and seeing that most of them are Labour or LibDems they arent going to do anything for Scotland are they?..They are just going to tow the party line. Tory, Labour, LibDem....same old, same old...same old promises, same old lies and just as Ken Clarke has shown...same old stupidity.
I am sorry but England isnt my Country, I want to be governed by Scottish people in a Scottish parliament in our Capital city!!....Just tell me what John Thurso has done for the people up here while he has been our elected MP, nothing as far as I can see. He is yet another who has jumped on the Westminster gravy train.
C3.....:roll:;)
OK. So we would be better off without 59 MPs in Westminster, but as many as you like in the Independent Scottish Parliament.
I'm not sure, but I'd have a small bet on where these (ineffective) MPs will end up.:eek:
weezer 316
18-May-11, 18:17
How the heck can WE set the rules in London????? Seeing as the Govt is Tory how many Scots MP's have power at the moment??? We are being governed by English Eton educated Tory Boys...Dont demand answers from me weezer, I am not your monkey that jumps when you say jump, if you read again you have had your answer...When we control our own spending, taxes and make all our own rules and laws!!
C3.......:roll::roll:
Very good. Just duck the issue! Aint that what you accuse Mps of doing?? This tory/eton mob who dont care about you......its amazing such stupid attitudes persist in this age!! Just ebcuase a party has "scottish" in thier name doesnt mean they have scotlands best interests at heart!
I want whats best for scotland, and thats being part of the union, you it appears, dont. And you wont even clarify where we differ from england so much that it requires independence as a remedy! You do realise to get indepedence that argument will have to be addressed??
Kells, well lets lay it out, as Alex will have to, where it is in our benefit to leave the union.......and where we are better off in the union.
Why should I educate you, go find out for yourself, you duck the issue by asking questions but I do not take your bait. lol
Of course Parliament runs our affairs, ok, slowly we are gaining some ground with our Scottish Parliament but not enough in my opinion. Only when the Scots have full control over everything will I be happy. When we can set our own taxes, set our own spending, when we dont have to adhere to the laws and rules made in London...Thats what it is all about or havent you grasped that yet? C3....:roll:;)
"When we can set our own taxes"
I thought the Scotland Act 1998 granted the Scottish Parliament the power to vary income tax by +/- 3p in every pound?
Very good. Just duck the issue!
And you wont even clarify where we differ from england so much that it requires independence as a remedy!
For the third time.............................................. .
When we control our own spending, taxes and make all our own rules and laws!!
C3......:roll::roll::roll:
Very good. Just duck the issue! Aint that what you accuse Mps of doing?? This tory/eton mob who dont care about you......its amazing such stupid attitudes persist in this age!! Just ebcuase a party has "scottish" in thier name doesnt mean they have scotlands best interests at heart!
I want whats best for scotland, and thats being part of the union, you it appears, dont. And you wont even clarify where we differ from england so much that it requires independence as a remedy! You do realise to get indepedence that argument will have to be addressed??
As Scotland has one tory MP and is it 11 Lib/dem how strong a voice do we have in Westminster.? What a stupid remark to make, Scottish in thier name so we vote for them, but perhaps that is the reason you do not vote for them when you think that way.
Because it is your opinion that you know what is best for Scotland does not make you right and everyone else who does not agree with you wrong or give you the right to tell anyone that they do not want what is best for Scotland.
Every nation has different needs and aspirations and why ask anyone to detail them for you and then not knowing what the differences are you you state they will have to be addressed........... :roll:
John Little
18-May-11, 19:04
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
Will they grow?
weezer 316
18-May-11, 19:14
For the third time.............................................. .
When we control our own spending, taxes and make all our own rules and laws!!
C3......:roll::roll::roll:
To clarify......
No economic case
No cultural case
No ideological case
No case basically just........we should should scrap the union cause....well just because we are scottish? Thast your case?
God help us all. You might turn me religious yet!
To clarify......
No economic case
No cultural case
No ideological case
No case basically just........we should should scrap the union cause....well just because we are scottish? Thast your case?
God help us all. You might turn me religious yet!
Carry on without me weezer, when it comes to the time for the vote, yours will cancel out mine anyway so why worry.....or mine will cancel out yours.
Amen!!!!!!!!!!
C3.........[disgust][disgust]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
Will they grow?
Well I'm screwed no matter which way a vote goes. If it's yes (to independence) there will have been so much anti English feeling whipped up it won't be safe to stay. And if the vote goes no the Nats will blame the incomers so it won't be safe to stay.
weezer 316
18-May-11, 19:29
Why should I educate you, go find out for yourself, you duck the issue by asking questions but I do not take your bait. lol
Right well seeing as your not inclined to actually state your case but just say I should educate myself, here is the case for staying in the union. I expect a retort somethign along the lines of tory this / english that. i would like to be surprised
Far far Stronger voice in the world united with the rest of UK
Far stronger economy, benefiting from the city of london amongst other things we wouldnt as a single nation
Ability to have any budget shortfalls picked up by the UK govt (scotland been in surplus 9 times from last 30 years)
Englands economy being so powerful that even with independence they would have a massive effect on scotland, yet we would have no voice there
Increased borrowing costs for the govt (ireland pays double the interest on borrowed money that the UK does)
No membership of bodies like G8, permanant UN security council seat
Marginal voice in Europe
Even more marginal voice for the rest of the world
Common UK languauge, culture, economic interests, shared history
Union has up until now been a fantastic success, no need to change and incur the massive costs and upheavale
Independence would leave us one of the most indebted countries on earth if we took our proportion of UK debt
Over exposure to certain risks highlighted by the credit crunch where only UK govt could have provided enough capital to get through problem.
And on the top of the cake is the complete lack of any sort of convincing argument from nationalists whatsoever
John Little
18-May-11, 19:30
I should not think so Duke. If the nutters take over they will scare voters away. I would imagine that the SNP will stay firmly grounded in the centre. They have to show that they are a safe pair of hands to be independent with. They can run Scotland beyond doubt; but any display of tartan extremism will lose a lot of support.
I should not think so Duke. If the nutters take over they will scare voters away. I would imagine that the SNP will stay firmly grounded in the centre. They have to show that they are a safe pair of hands to be independent with. They can run Scotland beyond doubt; but any display of tartan extremism will lose a lot of support.
Mr Salmond is going to personally guarantee my safety?
John Little
18-May-11, 19:37
Yes - he must deliver law and order for all. That includes you.
They can run Scotland beyond doubt; but any display of tartan extremism will lose a lot of support.
Who can run Scotland beyond doubt John???????? Not the SNP in my opinion, where is their experience in running a country for a start?
John Little
18-May-11, 19:43
Well they seem to have been doing it for a while...
Well they seem to have been doing it for a while...
In the last session of the Scottish Parliament the SNP did not have complete rule, They were not running Scotland
Originally posted by weezer 316
And on the top of the cake is the complete lack of any sort of convincing argument from nationalists whatsoever.
This only shows the utter futility of trying to educate or even converse with a troll such as you, your mind is obviously completely closed and probably incapable of comprehending such an argument entirely!
John Little
18-May-11, 19:49
That's an interesting take on it. I do not know enough about it to contest what you say but I have to say that from here it looked as if the SNP were running Scotland with an SNP administration.
John Little
18-May-11, 19:50
Originally posted by weezer 316
And on the top of the cake is the complete lack of any sort of convincing argument from nationalists whatsoever.
This only shows the utter futility of trying to educate or even converse with a troll such as you, your mind is obviously completely closed and probably incapable of comprehending such an argument entirely!
I do not see him as a troll. Nor anyone else here actually.
The whole thread is interesting and illuminating. I'd prefer it did not become a slagging match.
where is their experience in running a country for a start?
Neither have the LibDems Golach but we have an unelected Deputy Prime Minister doing his best to look like a superstar!!!
C3....:roll:;)
weezer 316
18-May-11, 20:17
Originally posted by weezer 316
And on the top of the cake is the complete lack of any sort of convincing argument from nationalists whatsoever.
This only shows the utter futility of trying to educate or even converse with a troll such as you, your mind is obviously completely closed and probably incapable of comprehending such an argument entirely!
Creeeekkkk....the gates to my mind have, for this thread only, swung open. Enlighten me, please. For the record I asked in post 215, or click forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?143495-Why-independence&p=851260#post851260 (http://forum.caithness.org/forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?143495-Why-independence&p=851260#post851260) for the post. I asked for the nationalist argument, the points where independence will prove superior to what we have at the moment.
I was told to educate myself, and that you arent monkeys who jump to my command! I was going to answer well you are independent monkeys, but that would have been a bit cheeky. No points, just abuse.
So, please bob, pretty please, those points if you will whilst those gates are open.....
weezer 316
18-May-11, 20:19
The SNP clearly have experience in running the country. They have just not done a very good job of it and seem to have washed most of their manifesto under the carpet and hoped we dont notice......oh and blame westminster ALOT!
Can anyone offer an opinion as to the direction of property value after independence?
weezer 316
18-May-11, 21:02
Can anyone offer an opinion as to the direction of property value after independence?
South, but only cause they evil tories will stop the nationalised banks lending just to spite scotland
To clarify......
No economic case
No cultural case
No ideological case
No case basically just........we should should scrap the union cause....well just because we are scottish? Thast your case?
God help us all. You might turn me religious yet!
No chance of that your mind is far to narrow to entertain any form of change. lol
What nonsense you talk at times..... just because we are Scottish is not a reason anyone has ever given for having a referendum. There have been a number of very good articles referenced on this thread and also on the other similar thread that if you read will deal with your lack of knowledge on the subject. It is important when discussing anything to have at least an reasonable knowledge of both sides and does save you from making foolish statements as you have done above and also enables you to make a balanced judgment.
Can anyone offer an opinion as to the direction of property value after independence?
I have read nothing about property values so cannot comment on that one but you did wonder earlier if a ref would bring on a hate the english situation. I would hope not and see no reason why this should happen as Independance is not about hating anyone just the natural desire of any nation to be in control of it,s own destiny. Many different nationalities have chosen to make Scotland there home and in doing so have become a part of Scotland and will I hope continue to do so.
I'd be more interested in how land values (not to be confused with property values) are affected after Independence as a Land Value Tax is a fairer form of local Government funding.
John Little
19-May-11, 06:21
I'm interested in incomers if anyone has got information on hard numbers. I can't find any figures quickly but someone may know.
It's my understanding that Scotland's population is declining fast. That over the next 20 years it will go down by half a million.
That the reason why the population is above 5 million is because of thousands and thousands of people from Poland, Lithuania etc.
The SNP welcomes such immigration and welcomes a multi-racial society.
But how many are there?
You see where I'm going with this? There is something of an irony if a substantial section of incomers - many from England I should think, vote for independence and contribute to the break up of the United KIngdom.
And is there a difference between SCOTTISH nationalism and scottish NATIONALISM?
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