Pensioners Targeted next?

[Shabbychic]

First it was the sick and disabled, now it looks like pensioners may be next on the government hit list.

I read this article (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/Pensioners-Should-Share-Pain-Of-Spending-Cuts-Says-Philip-Booth-From-Institute-of-Economic-Affairs/Article/201102415939650?lpos=Business_First_Home_Article_T easer_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15939650_Pensioners_Should_Share_Pain_ Of_Spending_Cuts%2C_Says_Philip_Booth_From_Institu te_of_Economic_Affairs_) the other day, then found the source (http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Sharing%20the%20burden%20-%20how%20the%20older%20generation%20should%20suffe r%20its%20share%20of%20the%20cuts.pdf). (PDF)

What next?

Do they not realise that pensioners are affected by all the other things like the VAT rise, fuel prices, heating costs and rising food costs, to name a few? Yes, there may be pensioners out there who live in big fancy houses with private pensions to match, but an awful lot of them don't.

It's all very well saying that the savings made will be directed towards tax cuts for the poorest people, but do they not realise that the poorest earn so little that many don't even pay tax, so how will it help them?

[Kodiak]

OH well I knew it would happen sooner or later. It looks like it might be a good time to go a a Food Free Diet.

[poppett]

A very worrying time ahead, especially when the double edged sword falls on the ............dare I say it?.........disabled pensioner.

If we cut back anymore we will be meeting ourselves coming home!

[The Bruce]

That's the torries for you.

Make millions by taxing banks? No.

Scrape a few quid together by taxing the poorest. What a great Idea!

I can't wait for them to sell Scotland.

[weezer 316]

Ignorance abound here!

It aint the tories mate, its the fact we pay US level taxes and want scandinavian level services. We want everything we have at the moment to continue we need to pay more taxes. simples.

Otherwise you end up with budget deficits like £175bn a year. How do you suppose we fix that? Or should we just ignore it and carry on as we are?

And lest we forget, that wasnt the tories that caused that......

[The Drunken Duck]

Everyone is affected by changes in society these days. For too long we have said that the elderly and the disabled etc etc should be protected from such cuts. On on hand these groups actively protest when it is suggested they arent a full part of society then complain whenever they have to take a hit with the rest of us. They cant have it both ways.

We are in the big brown pool of sticky stuff financially thanks to Labour and their spend everything now policy. EVERYONE will have to take a hit, and yes that means those people who campaign for equality the most ferociously. I had to ration my heating this winter, and I get just as cold as a pensioner or disabled person.

[orkneycadian]

Ignorance abound here!

It aint the tories mate,....

Agree. Its easy to blame this party or that party. Thing is, we have had them a variety of colours over decades, and ones as bad as the others. For example, all (main) parties have been in power whilst we send foreign aid to countries that can afford their own space and nuclear programmes. Then we wonder when we can't look after out own? :roll:

[Shabbychic]

Everyone is affected by changes in society these days. For too long we have said that the elderly and the disabled etc etc should be protected from such cuts. On on hand these groups actively protest when it is suggested they arent a full part of society then complain whenever they have to take a hit with the rest of us. They cant have it both ways.

We are in the big brown pool of sticky stuff financially thanks to Labour and their spend everything now policy. EVERYONE will have to take a hit, and yes that means those people who campaign for equality the most ferociously. I had to ration my heating this winter, and I get just as cold as a pensioner or disabled person.

Aren't you a charmer.

Yes everybody is affected by the cuts, even the pensioners and the disabled. They are just as heavily affected by things like food, fuel and VAT rises, the same as everybody else.

There is however a difference between you and a pensioner or disabled person. If you get cold, you can move about and keep warm, whereas many of them cannot. The elderly and disabled require a little more care and attention than an able bodied person.

You could at least have a little compassion for the weak in society, rather than a "I'm all right Jack" mentality.

[Gronnuck]

Everyone is affected by changes in society these days. For too long we have said that the elderly and the disabled etc etc should be protected from such cuts. On on hand these groups actively protest when it is suggested they arent a full part of society then complain whenever they have to take a hit with the rest of us. They cant have it both ways.

We are in the big brown pool of sticky stuff financially thanks to Labour and their spend everything now policy. EVERYONE will have to take a hit, and yes that means those people who campaign for equality the most ferociously. I had to ration my heating this winter, and I get just as cold as a pensioner or disabled person.
I can see where you're coming from; a long career in the military and an active second career in something else that's cosseted you from some of the reality of life in 'civi' street where disabled people and pensioners exist.
Many disabled people are not able to enjoy the sort of career trajectory that you’ve enjoyed to enable them to amass skills, savings or property; they have spent a considerable portion of their lives just getting by.
But you’re all right Jack.
A fair number of older people, for any number of reasons, don’t have generous work related pensions and have to live on a tight, fixed budget while trying to cope with rapidly rising livings costs.
But you’re all right Jack.
If, as you say everyone has to take a hit, why is it that the very people who caused this crisis are proportionately taking less of a hit than those who had very little or nothing to do with its cause.
Probably because they all right Jack.

[weezer 316]

Well again there is the fundemental issue. Compassion isnt going to keep the lights on when we all run out of money because we as a nation spend more than we receive. Live in a dream wake up in a nightmare.

Pensioners also receive a heating allowance, which I dont.

Also, dont play the "they worked all their lives" card. Whilst they were working they were paying for the old people of their time, not their future, just the same as we are paying for the elderly just now, not our own old age.

[sandyr1]

I started contributing to a Pension when I was in the UK., and continued doing so with my career in Canada.
So many people never ever did contribute and the attitude was ..The State will look after me..Not so!
As we are now painfully aware the State is in big .......!
I don't begrudge those less fortunate their perks, but I think that everyone has to pull back.

[weezer 316]

grunnock,

Madness. Who caused the crisis?? Ill tell you who, us, that's who. We have spent years and years spending money we dont have. That's not the banks fault, that's not wall streets fault, that's common man in the street who pays 30% of his income in taxes as opposed to a banker who will pay 50% as he is a top rate tax payer. You and the generation who have lived on the never never for 30 years are what has caused this

But lets just forget about that, blame the banks, the tories, shut our eyes and it will all go away...

Hypocrite.

[bekisman]

Oh well, Pensioner and disabled.. that's me!..

Fortunately I served in the Armed Forces long enough to earn a pension, and also a pension from the Fire Service, before being kicked out disabled, but by buying AVC's increased it, (well you've got to plan ahead haven't you?) add that to my 'Old age' Pension, and, being unable to go for a run to keep warm (crippled, you see) I can afford to keep the heating on... And with Mrs Beks with her Civil Service Pension plus OAP money......

Obviously I loose out on quite a few benefits, but hey, there are those worse off than me, who's bothered that; "Nine elderly people died every hour from cold-related illnesses last winter against a background of soaring energy bills. Official figures show the number of deaths linked to cold over the four-month period reached 25,400 in England and Wales, plus 2,760 in Scotland."*

Well actually I am, there are - as is obvious above - many who are not as well protected / provided as I am, and targeting them is showing callousness.. During my working life I paid good taxes, and I still do - I have no objection that they are used to help others less fortunate than myself..

* http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332343/Nine-pensioners-died-cold-hour-winter-prices-soar.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332343/Nine-pensioners-died-cold-hour-winter-prices-soar.html)

[The Drunken Duck]

I can see where you're coming from; a long career in the military and an active second career in something else that's cosseted you from some of the reality of life in 'civi' street where disabled people and pensioners exist.
Many disabled people are not able to enjoy the sort of career trajectory that you’ve enjoyed to enable them to amass skills, savings or property; they have spent a considerable portion of their lives just getting by.
But you’re all right Jack.
A fair number of older people, for any number of reasons, don’t have generous work related pensions and have to live on a tight, fixed budget while trying to cope with rapidly rising livings costs.
But you’re all right Jack.
If, as you say everyone has to take a hit, why is it that the very people who caused this crisis are proportionately taking less of a hit than those who had very little or nothing to do with its cause.
Probably because they all right Jack.


You seem to have a personal problem with me. I strongly suggest that you take it up with me by PM if you feel the need like I suggested before instead of on thread. This is the second personal attack you have levelled at me on thread, dont do it again. Otherwise I will walk up to you the next time I am at home and take it up with you personally to see if you are quite as mouthy in real life as you are here. We have a mutual friend and you arent quite as anonymous as you think. Or as clever it seems, although that is painfully apparent by reading your posts. Oh, and next time take the boxing gloves off before you type and punctuate, it will stop it looking like a drunk two year old did it.

My point was that EVERYONE has to take a hit. Its inevitable in the current climate. And why shouldnt they ??, As for me being unused to the reality of life, yup thats right. Its not like I have had a period of illness where I got zero help despite paying in for years, or periods of unemployment where I struggled to chose between eating and heating, my life is a fairytale isnt it ??, not that you or Shabbychic would know anything factual about it. Your just assuming things about my life and getting on your high horse. I know more about the reality of life than most people, I grew up partly in care and had nothing until I worked for it myself so dont expect me to apologise for making a success of myself. I give to certain charities including those that care for disabled servicemen. I have a gran in her late 80's I help out so I am also well aware of how pensioners live. So I am far from the "I'm alright Jack" mentality you two rushed to tag me with, so you two can ram it. At a high rate of knots.

Everyone else has taken a hit, me included. Everyone has to. Cry all you like you cant escape it. No one can or will.

[weezer 316]

Well said duck. They clearly belong to the "it's everyone elses fault not ours" crowd.

Seriously, and I would like an answer, how would you guys actually go about closing the £175bn a year deficit without impacting pensioners?

[sandyr1]

I agree with the D.D. We all have to take a cut.
Mobility cars, driving lessons, car tax and Insurance, plus those who stay at home and get paid for looking after relatives.
Whatever happened to the day when that was the 'family' thing to do.
These expectations, the entitlement, and demanding this and that are gone. This is not an attack on the UK., the World needs to change....I am sure some here have heard the phrase...Save for a Rainy Day....Buckets are coming.

And Weezer.....The only answer is to cut back on the entitlements and to stop giving away hard earned money....To those less Fortunate....as they say....To help with their terrorism!

[weezer 316]

I agree with the D.D. We all have to take a cut.
Mobility cars, driving lessons, car tax and Insurance, plus those who stay at home and get paid for looking after relatives.
Whatever happened to the day when that was the 'family' thing to do.
These expectations, the entitlement, and demanding this and that are gone. This is not an attack on the UK., the World needs to change....I am sure some here have heard the phrase...Save for a Rainy Day....Buckets are coming.

And Weezer.....The only answer is to cut back on the entitlements and to stop giving away hard earned money....To those less Fortunate....as they say....To help with their terrorism!

Hear Hear, that makes 3 of us, although Im sure canada did something just like this about 10 years ago and are better for it now.

[Gronnuck]

grunnock,

Madness. Who caused the crisis?? Ill tell you who, us, that's who. We have spent years and years spending money we dont have. That's not the banks fault, that's not wall streets fault, that's common man in the street who pays 30% of his income in taxes as opposed to a banker who will pay 50% as he is a top rate tax payer. You and the generation who have lived on the never never for 30 years are what has caused this

But lets just forget about that, blame the banks, the tories, shut our eyes and it will all go away...

Hypocrite.

I certainly didn't cause the UK economy to go into recession. Apart from a mortgage I have never spent money I didn't have, preferring to save until I had the funds to buy what I wanted or needed. I stopped using credit cards over 20 years ago. So who did spent all the money or make poor financial decisions? It wisnae me!

[sandyr1]

[QUOTE=weezer 316;825904]Hear Hear, that makes 3 of us, although Im sure canada did something just like this about 10 years ago and are better for it now.

Actually it was started around 20 years ago. We were given options...Take a pay cut or people would be laid off..So we took unpaid days off for several years, and our personal Pension Contributions went up. It wasn't a happy time. It lasted for 4-6 years and I missed out on an least one advancement(promotion). Other people took a hit, but you know we are better for it. Our economy isn't too bad altho' the United States is bad bad, and we export all sorts of 'stuff' there.
We are also having cuts, and I think that those cuts will be deeper in the next 12 months. The pendulum never stays in the middle.

I should perhaps mention the Original Thread/Statement about Pensioners...This is not an attack of them.......just life.

[weezer 316]

Couldn't possibly have been you though eh? Not a chance, not one of the little people! Seems to be a issue with some people understanding the difference between the recession and deficit.

Now, read what I wrote again. The recession is because of short sighted lending by large banks. The deficit, which is at the root of the cuts we have been discussing, we have is because of government spending money it doesnt have and has been this way for years. Whether you have used credit facilites or been in debt is irrelevant. Its about the tax you pay and the services you receive.

Now tell me, how do we cut that deficit without impacting pensioners? The old favourite of International Development Aid is £12bn, so you still have to bridge a gap of £163bn. Ideas please?

[sandyr1]

I do know what all Countries are doing at the present time, will not even service the interest on the debt.
In fact the United States is going to authorize another $1.3 TRILLION in increased Debt. Am not sure the proper terminology here, as I am split in 4 quarters...Scotland/ England/ Canada & the US.
So beware the coming Months........

[Shabbychic]

You seem to have a personal problem with me. I strongly suggest that you take it up with me by PM if you feel the need like I suggested before instead of on thread. This is the second personal attack you have levelled at me on thread, dont do it again. Otherwise I will walk up to you the next time I am at home and take it up with you personally to see if you are quite as mouthy in real life as you are here. We have a mutual friend and you arent quite as anonymous as you think. Or as clever it seems, although that is painfully apparent by reading your posts. Oh, and next time take the boxing gloves off before you type and punctuate, it will stop it looking like a drunk two year old did it.

My point was that EVERYONE has to take a hit. Its inevitable in the current climate. And why shouldnt they ??, As for me being unused to the reality of life, yup thats right. Its not like I have had a period of illness where I got zero help despite paying in for years, or periods of unemployment where I struggled to chose between eating and heating, my life is a fairytale isnt it ??, not that you or Shabbychic would know anything factual about it. Your just assuming things about my life and getting on your high horse. I know more about the reality of life than most people, I grew up partly in care and had nothing until I worked for it myself so dont expect me to apologise for making a success of myself. I give to certain charities including those that care for disabled servicemen. I have a gran in her late 80's I help out so I am also well aware of how pensioners live. So I am far from the "I'm alright Jack" mentality you two rushed to tag me with, so you two can ram it. At a high rate of knots.

Everyone else has taken a hit, me included. Everyone has to. Cry all you like you cant escape it. No one can or will.

As I said before, you really are a charmer.

Yes EVERYBODY has to take a hit, and the elderly and the disabled are, the same as eveybody else, but now they want to take even more off them.

The fact that you had to struggle through illness and unemployment, and probably lived in a shoebox on the A9 and had to work 63 hours a day, is not the issue. I will be the first to admit I know nothing factual, nor assume things about your life, just the same as you know nothing about mine.

You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, and if you wish to have a callous indifference to those less fortunate than yourself, that is your prerogative.

You also have the right to spout forth childish remarks, at a high rate of knots, as that only shows your present cognitive function. What you perhaps don't have however, is the right to threaten people on a public forum.

[sandyr1]

as i said before, you really are a charmer.

Yes everybody has to take a hit, and the elderly and the disabled are, the same as eveybody else, but now they want to take even more off them.

The fact that you had to struggle through illness and unemployment, and probably lived in a shoebox on the a9 and had to work 63 hours a day, is not the issue. I will be the first to admit i know nothing factual, nor assume things about your life, just the same as you know nothing about mine.

ohhhhhhhhhhhh come on....we all know these things get heated.....
and we also know that this entitlement thing has gone too far. There are cuts coming that will indeed scare you...
methinks what is being said is that the 'welfare' system has imploded.....there is no more money. We will be back to basics. As i mentioned in my previous post we went thru' this in the 90's/ perhaps not so bad but we tightened belts etc.
everyone has someone less fortunate than they.
all i hear on here is poor me....oh they are going to do a 'needs analysis on me'.

i among many other people, serve at the soup kitchen for those less fortunate, sell raffle tickets for charities, help people who have nothing etc.etc.
the elderly and disabled have always lived with their situation, not crying and bleating on a public forum, but proud of their accomplishments. I think we should all give our heads a shake and see how fortunate we are!


you are entitled to your opinion, as i am mine, and if you wish to have a callous indifference to those less fortunate than yourself, that is your prerogative.

You also have the right to spout forth childish remarks, at a high rate of knots, as that only shows your present cognitive function. What you perhaps don't have however, is the right to threaten people on a public forum.

I dunno how this all came out.....Oh well.

[Shabbychic]

Of course, you're right Sandy, sometimes debates do get a bit heated, and I do like a good debate, as you well know. You have your opinions and I have mine, and that is healthy. It would indeed be a dull world if everybody agreed with everybody else.

So, there is no point in repeating mine, and I know yours, but don't say the elderly and disabled are on here crying and bleating "poor me". They are not. Oh, and they are not terrorists either.(one of your previous posts)

So I'll just away to get out my mobility car, (before the government take it back) and head off to the soup kitchen, where I can buy a few raffle tickets from you.

See you there in 5.;)

[sandyr1]

Am sorry you misunderstood...
Firstly the Comment on us, the civilized World giving money to Countries who support Terrorists! Not 'our' people!
Methinks you have misunderstood what Iwas trying to say....You see it is the Language barrier...Caithness/ London, Canada/ Usa!
OK....Am kinda messed up! And this is not a personal thing....Just observationsw/ with opinions.

[Shabbychic]

As i said Sandy, I love a good debate, misunderstandings and all.

You know I love you really. mwah.

[sandyr1]

As i said Sandy, I love a good debate, misunderstandings and all.

You know I love you really. mwah.

U r funny! And you must be up past your bedtime.....Dunno the last letters....Am no a Kaitness loon noo!

Wow...and arn't we gettan real personal!

[ginajade]

my word the tory magic is working i see, divide and conquer, there is no need for any cuts, if the taxman was given the green light to go after the super rich who have avoided there fair share of the tax burden for donkeys years,
and where does this everyone has to take a hit, come from, is that a cameron soundbyte, we wont see his kids or family taking a hit, nor his multimillionaire cabinet buddies, what about all our super rich who syphon off billions each year with there tax avoidance schemes, and offshore accounts , they reckon a 100 billion a year is going offshore from the uk in these tax avoidance schemes, oh and our erstwhile mr cameron did have offshore accounts ,before he was up for the tory leadership , makes one wonder,
and most of his cabinet buddies, most super rich only pay about 4-10 % tax rate in uk not very fair i would say.

[ginajade]

It's time ALL these legal loopholes were closed. The P.A.Y.E'ers have to have their income stopped at source and pay the majority of tax in this country where as the rich & super rich either avoid tax through schemes like this or "live off shore" and pay little or no tax - ie the likes of Peter Green et al. If they earn an income in this county then they should pay ALL the tax that we would have to pay, regardless of where the residence is registered as! But will any government close them? NO, why because they join the boards of these companies when they finish in politics and earn a fortune as a way of thank you's for keeping the tax loopholes available to them.

[sandyr1]

You are so correct.. You see that is what is happening in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya. In a different way.
People are so fed up with the tiered system of taxes, I won't say corruption, that they are now standing up and questioning the system that they are Governed under.
The Egyptian Boss fell but the same people are in power. There has been no real changes.
So for those that disagree with the system of Gov't that we function under, let them then change the system.
We had a Prime Minister whose fleet of ships were registered in Liberia....Huh?!
Unfortunately the World is not fair. Either we accept it or fight it...........................

[ginajade]

well put sandy, and im afraid the world is a fair place if your lucky enough to be sitting at the top of the pile

[ginajade]

Peter green paid about 4% tax on his income last year, quote from the man himself, his lowest paid workers pay more tax than him, and he laughs about it too,

[sandyr1]

One can get to the top/ well nearer to the top with that proverbial hard work/ expanding horizons etc etc.....Then things can change...
I do feel that people are too well off (and I don't mean this in a bad way).
If they really want change it can be obtained...a wee bitty at a time.
Not easy tho'.

[sandyr1]

Peter green paid about 4% tax on his income last year, quote from the man himself, his lowest paid workers pay more tax than him, and he laughs about it too,

Am not sure of whom u talk....

Yes there is a saying which unfortunately is so very true.....The Rich get richer and the Poor get poorer. It's just the way of the World. It takes a brave fight to change it!

[ginajade]

Yes of course ordinary working class people can make it to the top, if not we would be up in arms long before now , but they really are taking the pee, and when you see the likes of david camerons cabinet, all tax avoiders at one time or another , its a disgrace

[ginajade]

Just google his name,and add tax avoidance to it.

[ginajade]

Did you know that there is not one working class man in the Cabinet, all are toffs , all privately educated, and this in the home of democracy. tut tut.

[ginajade]

After witnessing the disgusting spectacle of someone from possibly the most privileged background possible announce plans to remove a further £4billion from the poorest people in the country; rest assured that HMRC have all their priorities right when it comes to making sure the rich pay what they owe.

In the current 'Private Eye', there's a sorry story about £6billion in taxes being avoided by Vodafone after direct intervention from one man within HMRC who seems to have some very powerful friends. That's one instance from one company, and it would more than pay for Osborne's shortfall.

HMRC recently announced that they were going to start going soft on the worst offenders; that they've been 'too black and white in their interpretation of the law'. No surprise, 2 months after the Tories got in.

I'd rather see a much harsher regime, including paying former offshore bank workers for confidential details of UK tax cheats' stashes.

Attempting to avoid taxes when you have millions in the bank is a far more despicable crime than conning an extra £10 a week in sickness benefit, IMHO and I'd like to see a much more obvious campaign to stamp it out. Including the same sort of 'hotlines' we see stuck up in post offices to get claimants to grass each other up.

[sandyr1]

I see what you say....Ohhhh Is it Philip Green..Got it.
Ok...There are certain benefits for those in the know...
When I first started traveling with Work, I didn't realize tha Business benefits....Free upgrades on Flites/ cars/ you name it, there is a benefit/ freebie etc!
And then playing the Stock Market there are all sorts of Tax Advantages that one can use...
So the 'big players' know of these benefits, and as they progress thru their lives and thru business contacts, Gov'ts are lobbied for more and more benefits.
So it ends up that these get put in place and are there for the wealthy....
A recent example....The Governor's race in California....One of the Candidates spent $143 Million Dollars to attempt to get elected...But the Unions spent $250 Million against her//// Money won! And California is bankrupt and they are closing Schools etc! Huh..
You know, we are told we live in a Fair democracy......Can you imagine what the 'other' Countries are like!
There is likely no answer......Perhaps we should join the Thread on God and Faith...we are going to need it.

[ginajade]

I like your rhetoric sandy , puts a smile on e face, hers praying then or is that worshiping, lol never did get the god stuff, but i was brought up to have e open mind and respect other peoples beliefs no matter how strange.
different folks different strokes, lol.

when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

[Gronnuck]

You seem to have a personal problem with me. I strongly suggest that you take it up with me by PM if you feel the need like I suggested before instead of on thread. This is the second personal attack you have levelled at me on thread, dont do it again. Otherwise I will walk up to you the next time I am at home and take it up with you personally to see if you are quite as mouthy in real life as you are here. We have a mutual friend and you arent quite as anonymous as you think. Or as clever it seems, although that is painfully apparent by reading your posts. Oh, and next time take the boxing gloves off before you type and punctuate, it will stop it looking like a drunk two year old did it.

My point was that EVERYONE has to take a hit. Its inevitable in the current climate. And why shouldnt they ??, As for me being unused to the reality of life, yup thats right. Its not like I have had a period of illness where I got zero help despite paying in for years, or periods of unemployment where I struggled to chose between eating and heating, my life is a fairytale isnt it ??, not that you or Shabbychic would know anything factual about it. Your just assuming things about my life and getting on your high horse. I know more about the reality of life than most people, I grew up partly in care and had nothing until I worked for it myself so dont expect me to apologise for making a success of myself. I give to certain charities including those that care for disabled servicemen. I have a gran in her late 80's I help out so I am also well aware of how pensioners live. So I am far from the "I'm alright Jack" mentality you two rushed to tag me with, so you two can ram it. At a high rate of knots.

Everyone else has taken a hit, me included. Everyone has to. Cry all you like you cant escape it. No one can or will.

Ouch - It seems I hit a raw nerve. I don’t recall making any earlier attack on you personal or otherwise. Your lack of a coherent argument is apparent by your retreat to threats of violence and name calling. Shame on you.
I used the term, “I’m all right Jack” as a foil against the high handed attitude I believed you displayed towards some of the most disadvantaged members of society.
OK - I got it wrong, your career trajectory perhaps wasn’t as smooth as I imagined and I apologise for my erroneous assumptions. You made a success of your life because you made the effort despite many difficulties – well done. But I would have thought that your experiences would have given you a little more compassion towards those less fortunate than yourself. Many members of the disabled community live in poverty all their lives and there is little they can do about it. Little wonder they feel marginalised. Life dealt them a raw deal but a civilised society surely shouldn’t make matters worse for them. Let’s not tar all disabled people with the brush of scrounger or waster; those can be weeded out easily if there is a will.
You have an 80 year old Gran so you’re aware of how pensioners live. A low fixed income versus ever increasing prices for basic necessities and the squeeze is relentless. I would have thought this would engender some compassion for older people. I don’t believe you really want your Gran to take a hit. Of course there are older people that don’t really need some of the universal benefits like Winter Heating Allowance or Free Bus Passes but they can be taken out by Means Testing if necessary.
I doubt there are any further gains to be made by prolonging this debate so I’m going to sign off and apologise once more for the unfounded assumptions I made about you.

[weezer 316]

my word the tory magic is working i see, divide and conquer, there is no need for any cuts, if the taxman was given the green light to go after the super rich who have avoided there fair share of the tax burden for donkeys years,
and where does this everyone has to take a hit, come from, is that a cameron soundbyte, we wont see his kids or family taking a hit, nor his multimillionaire cabinet buddies, what about all our super rich who syphon off billions each year with there tax avoidance schemes, and offshore accounts , they reckon a 100 billion a year is going offshore from the uk in these tax avoidance schemes, oh and our erstwhile mr cameron did have offshore accounts ,before he was up for the tory leadership , makes one wonder,
and most of his cabinet buddies, most super rich only pay about 4-10 % tax rate in uk not very fair i would say.

My word, the old "we the little people are always taking the hit and what about the rich" magic is still being spouted.

Listen, who the hell is "they" by the way?? They reckon, is that the folk down the pub who also think that its terrible barclays paid only a couple hundred million in tax to the UK govt?

You, and alot of people like you seem to forget that a tiny majority of people in this country avoid tax, and that the vast majority of top rate earners who do pay actually pay for the services you consume. You dont pay anywhere near enough to cover a nurses pay in the course of a year, yet one small stint in hospital for anything above very minor and you have wiped out your national insurance contributions at a stroke. And still you moan. Its the rich who pay for the services you consume already.

And lest we forget, that great milkman from Edinburgh who is only in Scotland for 89 days a year for tax reasons!

Now tell me why someone who is rich and works hard, and already pays 50% of their income in tax (ridiculous) should have to pay more?

[Kitcat]

My word, the old "we the little people are always taking the hit and what about the rich" magic is still being spouted.

Listen, who the hell is "they" by the way?? They reckon, is that the folk down the pub who also think that its terrible barclays paid only a couple hundred million in tax to the UK govt?

You, and alot of people like you seem to forget that a tiny majority of people in this country avoid tax, and that the vast majority of top rate earners who do pay actually pay for the services you consume. You dont pay anywhere near enough to cover a nurses pay in the course of a year, yet one small stint in hospital for anything above very minor and you have wiped out your national insurance contributions at a stroke. And still you moan. Its the rich who pay for the services you consume already.

And lest we forget, that great milkman from Edinburgh who is only in Scotland for 89 days a year for tax reasons!

Now tell me why someone who is rich and works hard, and already pays 50% of their income in tax (ridiculous) should have to pay more?

I will give you the answer my brother gave me about why he did not mind paying 50% tax . Simple really and perhaps one you should keep in mind, "without the man/woman who sweeps the factory floor, empties the rubbish and does all the other menial tasks for a small wage, I would not be able to earn the money I do".

[ducati]

I will give you the answer my brother gave me about why he did not mind paying 50% tax . Simple really and perhaps one you should keep in mind, "without the man/woman who sweeps the factory floor, empties the rubbish and does all the other menial tasks for a small wage, I would not be able to earn the money I do".

Very nice, but it doesn't actually make any sense at all. Care to elucidate?

[Kitcat]

Very nice, but it doesn't actually make any sense at all. Care to elucidate?

The man/woman on the shop floor may not be as highly qualified or earn as much money as the Manager but they are just as important to the smooth running of the company. The lowest paid are not necessarily people to be discarded as worthless or devalued because they do not earn as much as some others as without them the managers cease to be managers and therefore cease to earn the big money.

On the whole these are the people who are pensioners living on a state pension. many requiring Pension Credit to take them about the poverty level. they I am sure would love to be able to pay 50% of their income and still be able to live.

[ginajade]

switch on your tv to the tonight show on itv1 just now, and you will see how the rich rip off the working class.

[catran]

Hear Hear, that makes 3 of us, although Im sure canada did something just like this about 10 years ago and are better for it now.

Aye yes Weezer, thoroughly agree with you.

[bekisman]

switch on your tv to the tonight show on itv1 just now, and you will see how the rich rip off the working class.

You mean Boots the Chemist? pretty clever of em (Tax Avoidance)

[weezer 316]

The man/woman on the shop floor may not be as highly qualified or earn as much money as the Manager but they are just as important to the smooth running of the company. The lowest paid are not necessarily people to be discarded as worthless or devalued because they do not earn as much as some others as without them the managers cease to be managers and therefore cease to earn the big money.

On the whole these are the people who are pensioners living on a state pension. many requiring Pension Credit to take them about the poverty level. they I am sure would love to be able to pay 50% of their income and still be able to live.

Oh yes of course.........no wait....you didnt actually answer the question did you! Think I wouldnt notice? let me put it another way so that you can asnwer and cant anecdote your way out of....

Why, when a person earns say £150k a year and pays £75k in tax, not to mention around 7.5k in national insurance contributions, should the majority of their wage, and yet more as you are arguing, go towards paying for expensive services and benefits that they themselves pay for yet you do not?

Surely you can see what would happen if say you taxed people like this at at 60% or even 70%? Or can you not

The cleaner whilst important to her comopany doesnt pay for the nurses, teachers and myriad benefits that the government provides, so her role is irrelevant when it comes to paying for services you consume. She, like me, doesnt pay enough.

[Kells]

Oh yes of course.........no wait....you didnt actually answer the question did you! Think I wouldnt notice? let me put it another way so that you can asnwer and cant anecdote your way out of....

Why, when a person earns say £150k a year and pays £75k in tax, not to mention around 7.5k in national insurance contributions, should the majority of their wage, and yet more as you are arguing, go towards paying for expensive services and benefits that they themselves pay for yet you do not?

Surely you can see what would happen if say you taxed people like this at at 60% or even 70%? Or can you not

The cleaner whilst important to her comopany doesnt pay for the nurses, teachers and myriad benefits that the government provides, so her role is irrelevant when it comes to paying for services you consume. She, like me, doesnt pay enough.

Maybe you could make what you are saying a bit easier to understand and then we could all learn from you.

[weezer 316]

In simple terms:

The cleaner her mentions is irrelevant as they dont pay for the services consume, rather like you an me.

Other point is why should people who already pay enough, and in some cases too much, pay more? They pay for the services we consume. The silence is deafening

[Gronnuck]

In simple terms:

The cleaner her mentions is irrelevant as they dont pay for the services consume, rather like you an me.

Other point is why should people who already pay enough, and in some cases too much, pay more? They pay for the services we consume. The silence is deafening

IMO many people will agree with the points you so forcefully make but this thread was about pensioners and the disabled; people for whom you obviously have little or no sympathy. Of course we could Means Test their universal benefits which would be costly but how can you tax people who already have nothing or at least very little to tax?
Perhaps we should be looking to the government to make cuts in some other areas. Trident nuclear submarines, illegal wars, foreign aid etc.
People aren’t going to argue with you if you don’t come down off your high horse and at least acknowledge some of the ‘wee people’ you disparage have perfectly valid opinions too.

[rob murray]

Ignorance abound here!

It aint the tories mate, its the fact we pay US level taxes and want scandinavian level services. We want everything we have at the moment to continue we need to pay more taxes. simples.

Otherwise you end up with budget deficits like £175bn a year. How do you suppose we fix that? Or should we just ignore it and carry on as we are?

And lest we forget, that wasnt the tories that caused that......

Are you counting the loans to bail out banks in the £175bn ? or do I add that on top ?

[Shabbychic]

The cleaner whilst important to her comopany doesnt pay for the nurses, teachers and myriad benefits that the government provides, so her role is irrelevant when it comes to paying for services you consume. She, like me, doesnt pay enough.

So what do you suggest we do with these irrelevant comopany cleaners, since they don't appear to contribute to society?

Actually I find your arguements totally fascinating. Usually the lower paid workers, like the irrelevant comopany cleaner, and yourself, get angry at the salaries and bonuses of the top earners, like the bankers. But not you. On no. You are out there arguing their corner, and praising them as being the important people who sacrifice all for the greater good of society.

Not only that, we, the irrelevants, should willingly accept reductions in services and scrape by on a pittance, while being grateful to the select few who are in a position to pay more, yet still have a luxury lifestyle.

Perhaps the reintroduction of serfdom would be your way forward.

[Kells]

In simple terms:

The cleaner her mentions is irrelevant as they dont pay for the services consume, rather like you an me.

Other point is why should people who already pay enough, and in some cases too much, pay more? They pay for the services we consume. The silence is deafening
The silence is deafening, you are not that important that I jump to your tune or time scale. The cleaners etc are irrelevant to you, well tough, go stay in a country where the old the children and the sick are left to fend for themselves. "Rather like you and me" you know nothing about me so do not presume to do so. This is still a democratic society when there is a national health service that aspires to provide care and medical treatment for all regardless of their circumstances. It is not a fact that some people already pay enough and in some cases to much, that is only your opinion and not an opinion shared by everyone.

[rob murray]

In simple terms:

The cleaner her mentions is irrelevant as they dont pay for the services consume, rather like you an me.

Other point is why should people who already pay enough, and in some cases too much, pay more? They pay for the services we consume. The silence is deafening

Defeaning eh !!!!! Your so called rationale is based on sheer subjective fantasing, the reason the UK has a free medical system is that philosophically after WW2, consenus demanded a non paying health service on the basis that health should not be a paid for service ( and hence subjected to commodification and market pricing ) thus creating a level playing field. Who pays for this...we all do collectively.

[rob murray]

grunnock,

Madness. Who caused the crisis?? Ill tell you who, us, that's who. We have spent years and years spending money we dont have. That's not the banks fault, that's not wall streets fault, that's common man in the street who pays 30% of his income in taxes as opposed to a banker who will pay 50% as he is a top rate tax payer. You and the generation who have lived on the never never for 30 years are what has caused this

But lets just forget about that, blame the banks, the tories, shut our eyes and it will all go away...

Hypocrite.

"We..the man in the street, caused the crisis did we...it wasnt the banking system was it, Selling mortgages at one year very low rates ratched up enormously in year two / three to people who could never repay, it wasnt the financial genuises who came up with the idea of parcelling up these debts with low risk debts and selling them on as commodities in the financial markets, it wasnt the financial markets who then panicked at the realistion that what they held was worthless it wasnt the banks who stopped inter lending causing the financial system to cease up creating a liquidity problem,it wasnt the governments who were forced into making massive loans ...was it ? I well remember a documentary on the financial collapse in the US, a city broker described sitting stunned on a park bench with some collegues and remarking that at that stage the ordinary people walking past had no idea that there lives were basically over as they knew it, such was the severity of the financial collapse. Oh and by the way, many of the people posting here will be debt free...like myself !!!

[annemarie482]

just to round things up a bit........

what are "we" all considering rich to be?

an income of?

[rob murray]

just to round things up a bit........

what are "we" all considering rich to be?

an income of?

Rich to me is someone with in excess of 5 million in liquid capital

[annemarie482]

ok so your not talking your average joe bloggs who's got a good salary then?

[weezer 316]

So what do you suggest we do with these irrelevant comopany cleaners, since they don't appear to contribute to society?

Actually I find your arguements totally fascinating. Usually the lower paid workers, like the irrelevant comopany cleaner, and yourself, get angry at the salaries and bonuses of the top earners, like the bankers. But not you. On no. You are out there arguing their corner, and praising them as being the important people who sacrifice all for the greater good of society.

Not only that, we, the irrelevants, should willingly accept reductions in services and scrape by on a pittance, while being grateful to the select few who are in a position to pay more, yet still have a luxury lifestyle.

Perhaps the reintroduction of serfdom would be your way forward.


Nice attempt to twist the post. The original point was made to show the money 85% of the working population pay in taxes equivalent to about the 2.5% of earners at the top of the tree, let alone all top rate tax payers. One single tax payer is a very small drop in the ocean. That was to show how the average man receives services valued at way over what they actually pay for. Thats a fact. if all the top earners pissed off to majorca the delivery of services by the govt would come to a standstill as 30% of the tax income would be gone but only 2.5% less of the population would be sing services.

The original point wa made in response to a reference to a cleaner being vital to their company, which I acknowledged. That one persons wage is not vital to the nation tax base

[weezer 316]

IMO many people will agree with the points you so forcefully make but this thread was about pensioners and the disabled; people for whom you obviously have little or no sympathy. Of course we could Means Test their universal benefits which would be costly but how can you tax people who already have nothing or at least very little to tax?
Perhaps we should be looking to the government to make cuts in some other areas. Trident nuclear submarines, illegal wars, foreign aid etc.
People aren’t going to argue with you if you don’t come down off your high horse and at least acknowledge some of the ‘wee people’ you disparage have perfectly valid opinions too.

I assume you have great sympathy for Old, poor and disabled. I then assume you are totally against giving more money, or possibly any, to old, poor and disabled poeple in say Ethiopia? Tell me what the difference is between old poor people here and old poor people in Africa?

BTW, I support international development aid. This is one of the worlds richest countries and should give money to provide clean water to desperately poor countries.

[weezer 316]

Are you counting the loans to bail out banks in the £175bn ? or do I add that on top ?

Yes. An absolute joke to bail out banks, although the government was caught between a rock and a hard place and new it was a hiding to nothing in the upcoming election regardless of what they did.

[weezer 316]

"We..the man in the street, caused the crisis did we...it wasnt the banking system was it, Selling mortgages at one year very low rates ratched up enormously in year two / three to people who could never repay, it wasnt the financial genuises who came up with the idea of parcelling up these debts with low risk debts and selling them on as commodities in the financial markets, it wasnt the financial markets who then panicked at the realistion that what they held was worthless it wasnt the banks who stopped inter lending causing the financial system to cease up creating a liquidity problem,it wasnt the governments who were forced into making massive loans ...was it ? I well remember a documentary on the financial collapse in the US, a city broker described sitting stunned on a park bench with some collegues and remarking that at that stage the ordinary people walking past had no idea that there lives were basically over as they knew it, such was the severity of the financial collapse. Oh and by the way, many of the people posting here will be debt free...like myself !!!

Read my previous posts. You seem to be confused. The deficit was caused by govt overspending/undertaxing. The credit crisis was the banks. Almost totally unrelated. We are discussing the deficit and action to reduce it are we not?

[weezer 316]

So what do you suggest we do with these irrelevant comopany cleaners, since they don't appear to contribute to society?

Actually I find your arguements totally fascinating. Usually the lower paid workers, like the irrelevant comopany cleaner, and yourself, get angry at the salaries and bonuses of the top earners, like the bankers. But not you. On no. You are out there arguing their corner, and praising them as being the important people who sacrifice all for the greater good of society.

Not only that, we, the irrelevants, should willingly accept reductions in services and scrape by on a pittance, while being grateful to the select few who are in a position to pay more, yet still have a luxury lifestyle.

Perhaps the reintroduction of serfdom would be your way forward.

Yes you should accept reductions in services and benefits! The masses of this country dont pay enough for them, hence the reason we have £175bn deficit year on year! How do you suggest we bridge that gap aside from tax rich people more?? I detest this "its my birthright to have an NHS/World class schools/generous benefits system". It isnt, it has to be paid for and I think the people who consume these services but dont actually pay enough to cover them should pay more.


Perhaps communism would be your way forward no?


And one more thing, If you ran a taxi firm, would you shepherd everyone around the town for 4/5ths of your runnnig costs if everyone thought it was their birthright to have a taxi? Or would you expect them to pay the going rate?

[Gronnuck]

I assume you have great sympathy for Old, poor and disabled. I then assume you are totally against giving more money, or possibly any, to old, poor and disabled poeple in say Ethiopia? Tell me what the difference is between old poor people here and old poor people in Africa?

BTW, I support international development aid. This is one of the worlds richest countries and should give money to provide clean water to desperately poor countries.

The difference between the old, poor and disabled people in this country and the the old, poor and disabled people in Ethiopia is that of governance. We have a liberal democracy of sorts where people have an opportunity to hold the government to account. Bribery and corruption is not prevalent. In my experience, having worked in Africa, a significant proportion of overseas aid is 'creamed off' by government officials at all levels and sadly bribery and corruption is the 'norm'.
However we digress. I would be obliged if you would answer my question, how can you tax people who already have nothing or at least very little to tax?

[Gronnuck]

Yes you should accept reductions in services and benefits! The masses of this country dont pay enough for them, hence the reason we have £175bn deficit year on year! How do you suggest we bridge that gap aside from tax rich people more?? I detest this "its my birthright to have an NHS/World class schools/generous benefits system". It isnt, it has to be paid for and I think the people who consume these services but dont actually pay enough to cover them should pay more.


Perhaps communism would be your way forward no?


And one more thing, If you ran a taxi firm, would you shepherd everyone around the town for 4/5ths of your runnnig costs if everyone thought it was their birthright to have a taxi? Or would you expect them to pay the going rate?

I can understand and appreciate the point you are trying to make weezer but the poorest in our society surely need support. The benchmark of a decent society is the way that it looks after its most disadvantaged.
Yes successive governments have been extravagant with benefits and I agree they should be reduced; but in cutting back surely we have to be sure we don't damage the very people we are trying to protect.

[Kells]

I don't find this twisted at all, you have two original points, that is confusing to read. You are talking a lot of nonsense, income tax is not based on one person but on the overall work force. If all the top earners pissed of to Majorca they would no longer be top earners but you can be sure that some one else would be doing their job. This thread is about the proposed cuts on pensioners not about high earners so you are being very illogical in your comments.

[weezer 316]

The difference between the old, poor and disabled people in this country and the the old, poor and disabled people in Ethiopia is that of governance. We have a liberal democracy of sorts where people have an opportunity to hold the government to account. Bribery and corruption is not prevalent. In my experience, having worked in Africa, a significant proportion of overseas aid is 'creamed off' by government officials at all levels and sadly bribery and corruption is the 'norm'.
However we digress. I would be obliged if you would answer my question, how can you tax people who already have nothing or at least very little to tax?

Grunnock,

I agree corruption is a huge problem, which is why money should be paid to the UN/OXFAM etc and left to distribute. Unfortunately it usually ends up being a bargaining toll with an oppressive regime who are given aid in return that they buy services or allow a british company to trade in their domain with favourable terms.

As for the tax question, and going back to my original point, is to raise income tax. Penny in the pound for basic earners. Also centralise services, a good example being the dental unit at Dunbar. they have a half filled one in wick. Instead of the 7 figure sum spent there, why not just lay a free bus on through to wick? Would save 98% of the budget and that could be spent elsewhere.

[weezer 316]

I can understand and appreciate the point you are trying to make weezer but the poorest in our society surely need support. The benchmark of a decent society is the way that it looks after its most disadvantaged.
Yes successive governments have been extravagant with benefits and I agree they should be reduced; but in cutting back surely we have to be sure we don't damage the very people we are trying to protect.

Apologies I didnt realize you answered both posts.

Yes the poorest need support, but at the same time I dont see being old as being inextricably linked to being poor. Many old people simply spent their wages in the pub every weekend when they were younger and expected the state to cover them. My gran was one, who bemoaned her lack of paying a private pension whilst she was younger and wished she had saved for a rainy day, whilst her older sister was a model of such prudence despite never working in anymore more than a factory, and enjoyed a fabulous retirement. At the same time I dont mind funding a health service for all to use as needed. Again though, you are responsible for ensuring you can live comfortably in retirement, and a pension will still keep paying in ill health as you get older whilst many jobs (mine included) wont pay a wage if I am ill. Its a pensioners responsibility to ensure they can heat their homes and what have you, not the governments.

However, and this is my point in response to the usual "tax the rich more" chants, we cant tax the rich anymore, especially as they already essentially work more for you and me than themselves and their families and that is a ludicrous situation no matter how much you earn. I'd bet my bottom dollar not a soul on these boards gets out of bed in the morning with the aim of paying for the NHS/schools/benefits to work shy families. They do it because it puts food on the table and enriches your life.

So in summary, we need to either pay more tax or cut services and benefits. Or, given the huge deficit we face every year, both.

[Gronnuck]

So in summary, we need to either pay more tax or cut services and benefits. Or, given the huge deficit we face every year, both.

I agree. The problem at this moment in time is that there are too many Universal Benefits to which all and sundry are entitled. Means Testing is time consuming and expensive. All of this IMO is because the government of the day courted people with benefits and effectively 'bought' their votes. Time now to cut back. I don't know how this can be done effectively without dealing with people on a more individual basis.
The current welfare system was born out of the Beveridge Report over 65 years ago. Society has changed, the world has changed but apart from some tinkering around the edges successive governments have done little to update or tailor the welfare system to society's changing needs. I'm not sure whether Iain Duncan Smith's proposed welfare reforms are going to be enough or are going to protect our most vulnerable people.

[Walter Ego]

I don't find this twisted at all, you have two original points, that is confusing to read. You are talking a lot of nonsense, income tax is not based on one person but on the overall work force. If all the top earners pissed of to Majorca they would no longer be top earners but you can be sure that some one else would be doing their job. This thread is about the proposed cuts on pensioners not about high earners so you are being very illogical in your comments.

Straight over your head.

[Kells]

Straight over your head.

stupid comment, means nothing says nothing other than about the person who writes it.

[secrets in symmetry]

I will give you the answer my brother gave me about why he did not mind paying 50% tax . Simple really and perhaps one you should keep in mind, "without the man/woman who sweeps the factory floor, empties the rubbish and does all the other menial tasks for a small wage, I would not be able to earn the money I do".It's interesting that your point has been missed by most and misunderstood by some. Capitalism wouldn't work if your brother was wrong. I would replace "earn" by "get paid" but the rest is spot on.

[weezer 316]

Symmetry,

Again you completely miss, or as in other threads ignore, the point. We are not discussing the viability of capitalism, we are discussing the fact that pensionsers...............infact read the entire thread before posting becuase I cant be bothered recapping the points made by all posters so far. No doubt you will either not bother, or will probably just ignore anything that doesnt fit in with your vision of the world

[Shabbychic]

Nice attempt to twist the post. The original point was made to show the money 85% of the working population pay in taxes equivalent to about the 2.5% of earners at the top of the tree, let alone all top rate tax payers. One single tax payer is a very small drop in the ocean. That was to show how the average man receives services valued at way over what they actually pay for. Thats a fact. if all the top earners pissed off to majorca the delivery of services by the govt would come to a standstill as 30% of the tax income would be gone but only 2.5% less of the population would be sing services.

The original point wa made in response to a reference to a cleaner being vital to their company, which I acknowledged. That one persons wage is not vital to the nation tax base

You seem to think the tax pot relies solely on income tax. It is not as black and white as that. What about all the other taxes we pay like, VAT, fuel duty, corporation tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, excise duty, inheritance tax, betting duty and council tax, to name a few.

The original point of this thread was that the elderly and the disabled already contribute to many of the above, but now the government want to hit them even harder.

Communism would not be my way forward, but I also don't think capitalism works well either. As long as there are greedy people on this planet, the wealth and power will continue to be kept by the few to the detriment of the rest.

[weezer 316]

Im well aware taxation is done in many ways. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Im aware of what the post was about and my response to it is that they must contribute more, as must you and I, especially if we want the services we already have. We are running a deficit and and that needs to be fixed seeing as me, you and 90% of pensioners dont pay for the services we consume.

As for capitalism not working well, id remind you you are amongst the 10% wealthiest people in the world, and in that respect it is your life would almost certainly appear to be full of excess and luxury when viewed through the eyes of the majority of the worlds population

[bagpuss]

To return to the original post

The generation of pensioners who are currently dying out were those who could remember the shadow of the workhouse
They saved their money, knew how to be thrifty and usually ahd sufficient money- in cash- in their houses to pay for their funerals
I agree that those facing retirement over the coming years are the shopaholic careless me me me generation- who had everything laid on for them- free Uni; healthcare and no such fears
and now we have people who are feckless and reckless- teen mums; the workshy
Bring back the workhouse?

[squidge]

Feckless and reckless????? Never mind teen mums and the workshy, sounds like politicians and bankers to me.

[weezer 316]

Yes mind them too! Read the posts! We all need to take a hit.

[squidge]

Take a hit hmmmmmm how much of a hit is the gorgeous mr Cameron and his millionaire cabinet taking whilst disabled people are worrying about not being able to get to work because their motability car may have to go back because the government are cutting benefits? Whilst thousands of council workers, care workers, classroom assistants and janitors are wondering how long they will have jobs? Whilst sure start centres trying to tackle some of the ingrained problems in society are wondering where their next funding will come from? Whilst the volunteer Samaritan is taking calls from a carer whose disabled daughter's benefit has been stopped but the daughter suffers so badly from ms somedays she can't get out of bed? Whilst the single mum struggling to go to work pay childcare and run her home worries about finding £7.40 for her prescription? Whilst the young student trying to afford to go to university to study medicine is worrying how on earth they will manage the debt they are left with at the end? And so on and so on.....

Yes, we all have to take a hit, the trouble is those hit hardest are the poor, the weak and the vulnerable. The super rich exploit tax loopholes and the government assist them in doing so. That is what is disgusting and immoral.

[sandyr1]

Squidge,
I think we all hear you....but....we, collectively we.... have lived beyond our means for years. Each successive Gov't have given away freebies to get re-elected.
When I come back to Caithness and the North nearly everyone has a new car, houses and perhaps something abroad, or go on holidays every year...The Super Rich always exploited the loopholes.
I wanted to go to University...we didn't have enough money. People with disabliities were looked after by their families. Those with cars went and took people out to Dr's apts or for a wee run on a Sunday, sometimes the only day off work. And there wern't too many single Mums around around. And perhaps we are going back to that. I lived thru and grew up with the situation after WW2 and it wasn't happy. But we made ourselves happy...... My 12th birthday I got an Orange and a home made bow and arrow! Also at 12 I fell off a horse and broke my arm. I pedalled my bike to the Drs Office that evening with my Mother and had it set. That was a Sat. I then went on the bus to Wick on the Monday to have it set in plaster, and they broke it again as it wasn't set correctly( Oh and the surgeon corrected it with one hard crack on the corner of the desk)!.....At 16 I got a bike.....Give your head a shake.................
Canada went thru a bit of a depression in the early 90's. It affected us all.. I lost several weeks a year pay, a least one promotion, maybe two and we all tightened our belts. No it wasn't as bad as what most of the World is going thru just now, but our situation was nipped in the bud....we are making our way now.
And you have a roof over your head, unlike half the rest of the World. The entitlement thing is ending!

[secrets in symmetry]

Symmetry,

Again you completely miss, or as in other threads ignore, the point. We are not discussing the viability of capitalism, we are discussing the fact that pensionsers...............infact read the entire thread before posting becuase I cant be bothered recapping the points made by all posters so far. No doubt you will either not bother, or will probably just ignore anything that doesnt fit in with your vision of the worldHow odd. Do you really not understand Kitcat's brother's point? In the private sector, bosses can have high salaries because they profit from the work of their employees, who in turn get paid less. High salaries for bosses provide incentive and tax provides negative feedback to stabilise the system. That's why capitalism works.

You have strong opinions on religion, science, economics and politics, but you don't seem to have a real feel for any of them. Perchance you are young and this will come as you mature, in which case I wish you luck in your journey.

[squidge]

Sandyr1 and when I were a kid, your posts on this always hark back to the way it was... like Michael Palin and John Cleese in their big flat caps. The world has changed and thank goodness for that. Every generation wants better for it's children. I think you have a few pairs of rosy specs there. Let's look for instance at people with disabilities. In the mid 20th century many people who had disabilities were not looked after by their families, they were confined to homes or institutions, they were often kept out of sight and educated seperately,
they were not expected to work, where their care was
done at home it put a huge strain on families and there
was no expectation that people who had disabilities would
live independently.

Today there are fewer disabled people in institutions, they work in a huge variety of jobs, not just lift operators or car park attendants and not to fill some stupid quota any more. Many live independent lives some needing support to do so. Where they are caredfor at home there is more support given ...it's not perfect but it isbetter than it was.

Now I know you have a bee in your bonnet about motability but these things not only allow people independance for themselves but for society ... They enable people to contribute to society, to pay taxes, to be less of a financial burden than they would be if we were still locking them in institutions. Do you really believe that the way disabled people were treAted in the fifties is better than the way it is now?

Similar comments apply to the rest of your post too. Single parents? Subjected to back street abortions, sent away, humiliated and shamed ... Not only the mother but the child too. And women who were stuck in loveless. Sometimes abusive marriages because the shame of getting a divorce and trying to live alone withthe children was so difficult and shameful.

A society should be measured by how it cares for it's weak, vulnerable and disaffected. Instead we have the avoidance of tax by massively rich companies and individuals with smiling approval of the con dems whilst ordinary folk struggle.

[sandyr1]

Sandyr1 and when I were a kid, your posts on this always hark back to the way it was... like Michael Palin and John Cleese in their big flat caps. The world has changed and thank goodness for that. Every generation wants better for it's children. I think you have a few pairs of rosy specs there. Let's look for instance at people with disabilities. In the mid 20th century many people who had disabilities were not looked after by their families, they were confined to homes or institutions, they were often kept out of sight and educated seperately,
they were not expected to work, where their care was
done at home it put a huge strain on families and there
was no expectation that people who had disabilities would
live independently.

Today there are fewer disabled people in institutions, they work in a huge variety of jobs, not just lift operators or car park attendants and not to fill some stupid quota any more. Many live independent lives some needing support to do so. Where they are caredfor at home there is more support given ...it's not perfect but it isbetter than it was.

Now I know you have a bee in your bonnet about motability but these things not only allow people independance for themselves but for society ... They enable people to contribute to society, to pay taxes, to be less of a financial burden than they would be if we were still locking them in institutions. Do you really believe that the way disabled people were treAted in the fifties is better than the way it is now?

Similar comments apply to the rest of your post too. Single parents? Subjected to back street abortions, sent away, humiliated and shamed ... Not only the mother but the child too. And women who were stuck in loveless. Sometimes abusive marriages because the shame of getting a divorce and trying to live alone withthe children was so difficult and shameful.

A society should be measured by how it cares for it's weak, vulnerable and disaffected. Instead we have the avoidance of tax by massively rich companies and individuals with smiling approval of the con dems whilst ordinary folk struggle.

I do agree with what you say, but and a very big But.......................If we don't have the ............! money we cannot spend it.
Take my 'job'. My organization had a budget of $175M of which I had responsibility for a 'chunk'. Say I had $80M....How could I go out and spend $81M or any amount over that which I had. It is as simple as that....
You can say 'the bee in the bonnet thing'....I wish I had these perks for my two women who had MS. We have I am sure the same amount of disabled people as you have and we have a huge Country, and we have 'guess what' Buses for the Disabled'. Gawd I served on the 'Accesibility Committee' for the disabled. But if the Country cannot aford it ....guess what. They cannot afford it.
People who have children do get some assistance but it is not limitless.....
There is no real sense in arguing this.. There will be cutbacks......
The Con Dems I take it is your Political party. This didn't start with them/ this started 30+ years ago.
I have dealt with business for years and trust me, there may be loopholes but many pay huge taxes.....Don't kid yourself.........It will take everyone in a concerted effort to solve theis 'Thing'.

[rob murray]

Read my previous posts. You seem to be confused. The deficit was caused by govt overspending/undertaxing. The credit crisis was the banks. Almost totally unrelated. We are discussing the deficit and action to reduce it are we not?

yes there was a deficit no one is arguing that there was not, however the unpreceded levels of actual money, not counting guarantees that the then government ( and any government would have done the same ) had to lend to banks to prevent a total collapse has had a huge knock on effect on available liquidity, therefore of course affecting the real economy.

[squidge]

If we don't have the money we can't spend it. You are right, I am not arguing with you about that. However the government must ensure that the people who are using every trick in the book to avoid paying tax pay what they owe. Make no mistake sandyr ... Our disabled ms sufferer who needs a motability car to get to work won't be able to avoid paying the taxes SHE owes. Nope... Those taxes are deducted at source through PAYE. Down to every last penny. And yet your Philip green and companies like vodafone et al are not only allowed but enabled to avoid taxes.

You drew a comparison with the company you work for so I will ask you how in times of austerity whether your company would encourage it's
workforce to allow a big customer to not pay their bill, a sort of "ach you owe us £567 000 but see being as you said how nice we are we will let you off paying" whilst taking Mr Brown to court for the £250 he has not paid cos he has been in hospital.
That's what is happening here. By all means cut benefits, services, jobs and the like because there is no money but not whilst you allow the rich
to walk away and not only escape the cuts but laugh up their sleeves because the government passes laws which increase their profits.

The priority should be to Maximise the income the country has not give
it away! Then and only then should the weak and the vulnerable be targetted. Of course benefits should be tightened up and fraud reduced but not to return us to the 1950s or to remove the huge steps forward made by society in the interim.

And don't even get me started on public transport. Buses for disabled? You can't even get a buggy on Many buses never mind a wheelchair.

[Corrie 3]

Very true Squidge, it makes a mockery of Camerons famous quote....."We are all in this together"!!!!!
I think what he meant was "Everybody is in this if they get less that £100k per annum"..
I think this quote will come back and kick him on the bum in the near future, I hope so cos we are not all in this together are we?

C3.....:(

[oldmarine]

Looks like you people in the UK are having similar problems as we in the USA. Both our Social Security and Medicare programs are running out of money. Our governing bodies in Congress meanwhile set up their own retirement & medical systems and don't appear to care about those people who elect them. Mean while our country is trillions of dollars in debt and continue to borrow more and more. At 85 years of age I don't have too much longer to worry about it, but my children, grandchildren, etc. belong to a failing nation.

[sandyr1]

Squidge etal.,
Firstly I should clarify...The 'Company' I worked for was the Government, a specific section of same.
And I can say we had many checks and balances so I can assure all that most of Gov't is good. Some is not so good and some is ............y corrupt. But that is life isn't it.
And Wis jist athinkin.......When Companies like Vodaphone, Shell, Esso etc etc make these huge profits that is done for the Shareholders......Their Stock appreciates but they also pay out Dividents to the shareholders.. And many of the Shareholders are Government and Private Pension Plans. I know that the Canadian Gov't is invested in Shell as is my private pension plan.....So perhaps before we flush these large institutions down the drain, we should look who is getting paid by them. And the more Tax they pay to the Gov't the less the dividend and Dividends are taxed less than straight profits.
Perhaps there is a Financial 'person' available to speak further on this, but many people only became aware when we in North America had the huge Oil Spill in the Gulf of Mexico. And I agree that Politicians take advantage of the system, but they are Mortals like ourselves who sometimes make mistakes, get greedy or whatever.
Our Politicians have some Private Hospitals which they are entitled to, but to my fortune I have found two of them and had some surgery done at one of them at the going Gov't rate....so not is all lost...One must expand one's horizons!
The buses and the disabled......we were the same BUT we did something about it. Held meetings, put the local Gov't on notice and then they budgeted money for it. You see if I give you something extra then without figuring out how to get more money I have to take something away.
It's like dealing with a child. You cannot have everything and if you want something else you will have to give something up. A great way to teach.

And C3...What are you going to do when you kick Cameron out....I'm sure you know that they all make idle promises but do they ever fulfill them

An interesting article and oRG discussion was on the Teaching assistants.....
This is good Gov't for you...happens everywhere....
Tell the people that they are going to lose their teaching assistants. Then they is a loud response against it. Then say Ok we are going to study it. Then come back and say, well we have to make some cuts but it will only be 40%. people are annoyed but happy.
They have done that to us here on several recent occasions..with extra taxes......
And guess what...We fall for it every time/ the reason it is all accepted and the same things happen is, that we are all so busy working, looking after the kids, making ends meet, cooking meals etc etc we just don't have time to fight it.

[weezer 316]

Oh for flips sake squidge! You just dnt get it do you! Ill explain, in plain english....

You are moaning about these services, and that "the rich" wont suffer. No they wont, because they are rich. Quite simply, they PAY FOR THE SERVICES YOU CONSUME! You dont pay enough to cover them. Tax them more, they take their skills abroad (Look at HSBC considering moving its headquarters to hong kong). You can moan about rich people till the cows come home, but its them that pay for your NHS/Schools etc. Me and you on the other hand dont. Dont believe me, check this out http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8417205.stm

In short, seeing as its you that uses the NHS, and not say some huge banker who pays privately (and his NHS coupon, which is probably about 30x what you pay, not even looking at income tax nor the value of his trade to the country) then you should pay more. Quite simple.

[squidge]

Weezer

I do get it. But I still think that it is WRONG in these times of austerity to make swinging cuts to services that affect the weak and vulnerable and allow or even encourage the super rich to avoid their tax liabilities. You and I cannot avoid ours. Have our wages paid before tax into some offshore account and claim we don't live here. I understand what you say about the super rich paying for the NHS and education and suchlike because my miserable little contribution does not pay for it all. But I pay exactly what I have to pay. No ifs or buts, no wriggling out of it through loopholes. What seems to happen when you are massively wealthy is that you don't have to pay what you owe because the government let you off it, by allowing you ( and by you I mean super rich individuals and corporations) to avoid it.

I'm not even talking about putting up taxes, just closing loopholes and not passing legislation which encourages massive corporations to avoid paying tax that would otherwise be due. And especially not doing that whilst making welfare 'reforms' which target sick, old, disabled or vulnerable people.

In 2008 Nick Clegg promised to close two specific loopholes to do with tax relief on pension contributions which led to a hedge fund manager paying less tax than his cleaner. He reckoned that doing this would bring in an extra 12 billion pounds.

I do not want punitive tax rates for high earners, I do not begrudge high earners the money that they have earned. What rankles is the avoidance of tax which would be due on that money if they were not doing their level best to wriggle out of paying what they owe.

[weezer 316]

Look, Everything is done to ensure everyone pays the tax they must. Some will get through the system. They should,and must, be chased. However, And I stress this, chasing high earners who dodge taxes is not going to solve the deficit, not even close. You and I must pay more, or benefits and services must be cut.

And you do begrudge people who earn alot of money clearly. Id bet Mr Cameron pays his taxes to the last penny, yet you come out with statements like "Take a hit hmmmmmm how much of a hit is the gorgeous mr Cameron and his millionaire cabinet taking whilst disabled people are worrying about not being able to get to work because their motability car may have to go back because the government are cutting benefits? "

Stop moaning about the rich. its old tosh and a symptom of people and society who blame everyone else for their troubles.

And dont get me started on pensioners. They can pay their way and pay for their own retirement, end of story.

[squidge]

Jeepers weezer in the rush to make 80 posts you clearly learned nothing about me lol.

I don't begrudge high earners the money they have earned. I do begrudge them allowing others who are similarly wealthy to avoid paying what's due. I Also how
wonder how George Osborne, David Cameron and their wealthy colleagues can understand the struggles people are having when they have no idea what it is like to have nothing. I try to believe that they have empathy and understanding but I'm afraid that the expenses scandal and the broken promises have led me to believe that they dont understand the meaning of the words. I don't blame anyone else for my trouble ... I am not in trouble.... All I ask for is fairness, if those on ordinary incomes have to pay taxes, the cleaner, the shopworker, the teacher, the policeman, then so should the hedge fund manager, the football professional, the entrepreneur and the super rich. That's all.

And as for your comments about pensioners well it says it all really. It smacks of I'm allright jack and I don't care about you and you and you and you. I don't understand how people can walk past on the other side of the road metaphorically speaking and not see it as the responsibility of the more fortunate to support the less fortunate.

[squidge]

Oh and we aren't talking the avoidance of a wee bit of tax.... It's not 50p I'm talking about. I asked some questions on a thread earlier on because I really could not believe it ...
http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/szx_EG12cWm90XkxrBkdEvQ/view.m?id=15&gid=commentisfree/2011/feb/07/tax-city-heist-of-century&cat=commentisfree

And here

http://m.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/19/philip-green-liberal-democrats-tax?cat=business&type=article

It's unfairness and prejudice that I hate weezer not riches or poverty, we should be working for a fairer society, not one where there are no rich people but one where EVERYONE who can, pays their way and those who are unable to do so are supported until they can.

[sandyr1]

When all is said and done, you are correct. But then there would be Utopia.
What you have is what you get.... politics.....If you can find a system that works the way you want it to, I would pursue it.
You see certain people 'line their own pockets' but that is life.
Nowadays if a person wanted to get into Politics they could...and they could become possibly the P.M., but how many do you know want to go that way or have the drive to do it? So why don't you run for something, say Council, and see how you get on. It is not for the 'Faint of Heart'!
And I am not joking or putting you down. It is a viscious, cut throat and can become a nasty business.
And there are %'s for you and against you. Has any Political party in the last 30 years done the Country good? Some will say Yea and other Nae!
Did they handle any of the crisis' well?
I doubt if anyone thinks anyone did, but get into it and you will have your eyes opened! I have been 'skirting' the Political Scene for 20+ years, thru my job, and I wouldn't want their aggravation.
And Weezer is right.
Just think, the more money Corporations make the more Tax they pay, and a better Dividend is paid out which goes towards Pensions and Assistance for those disadvanaged.
When the price of Fuel rises,,,,,yes it is bad, but the Gov't makes more money which goes into the aforementioned. Life really isn't all bad. Is the glass half empty or Half Full.

[bagpuss]

I'm not even talking about putting up taxes, just closing loopholes and not passing legislation which encourages massive corporations to avoid paying tax that would otherwise be due. And especially not doing that whilst making welfare 'reforms' which target sick, old, disabled or vulnerable people.

In 2008 Nick Clegg promised to close two specific loopholes to do with tax relief on pension contributions which led to a hedge fund manager paying less tax than his cleaner. He reckoned that doing this would bring in an extra 12 billion pounds.


Did mr clegg actually get round to closing that loophole?

[squidge]

erm.... lets see.... nope.

and Sandyr1 - standing for office??? i have thought about it but with a young family and living in the north -it is not practical for me at this time. You never know though.. get the babies bigger and............ probably not. I too in my work have floated around the edges of politicians and know that it isnt easy and you cant please all the people all the time. It doesnt mean that because they are doing a hard job that they should be cut any slack when it comes to examining their policies and ideology and discussing alternatives or believing they are wrong.

I try to put my money where my mouth is in other ways though. I work for several voluntary groups and am on the board of a charity promoting health and wellbeing. In fact i am busier and more fulfilled by doing this than i ever was in my paid work.

Finally and perhaps the most important - I vote and in voting that gives me the right to question, criticise and support government policies as I believe and the right to form opinions and voice those opinions as i see fit as long as i stay within the law.

Utopia?? Accepting people line their own pockets to the tune of hundereds and thousands of pounds??? I think not. The jailing of politicians who fiddled expenses was an indicator that the public has a right to expect integrity and honesty from its politicians and that brings us right back to to the question that bagpuss asked. Nick Clegg and his integrity and honesty. Hoppefully the recent by-electionindicates that the public are not prepared to support the libdems when they have sold their voters down the river.

[sandyr1]

Yes S....We all do things like that!
Again...repeat after me.....More of the same......etc