View Full Version : who is god
No it isnt!! Thats the point! You need evidence!
Would you agree that standing on the earth looking at the skies gives the illusion that the heavens rotate around us?? Yet this is wrong. Itsan illusion. Knowledge of science shows that the earth si actually rotating. The same for human beings, the world, the galaxy and universe.
And to say it happened by chance shows just how far your understanding of such matters goes. Graviational forces moulded the universe into the galaxies. stars and planets we see today. Where the hell is the chance in that?????? None! Same for humans. natural selection, not chance! An eyeball didnt just form you know, it evolved.
Astonishing ignorance. Truly astonshing.
And 1 question, your god, who designed him? Or was he a chance occurance?
I understand your illusion example. I don't see how it relates to life on earth. I'm glad to astonish you, but I'm not ignorant. Your belief rests on chance. It's whole foundation is chance. It was chance that the gravitational forces formed the earth just the right distance from the sun. It is chance that happened to knock the earth to it's tilt to allow the seasons. It was chance that all the right chemicals for life came together and life evolved from non-life. It was chance that the forces in the universe, so finely balanced, came to be that way from the beginning of the universe to allow life to evolve. If there was no designer then it came about by chance. Natural forces that happened to interact in a certain way to allow sooooooooo much stuff to develop and be in existence.
I refer you to a previous answer about the nature of God.
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 15:04
I understand your illusion example. I don't see how it relates to life on earth. I'm glad to astonish you, but I'm not ignorant. Your belief rests on chance. It's whole foundation is chance. It was chance that the gravitational forces formed the earth just the right distance from the sun. It is chance that happened to knock the earth to it's tilt to allow the seasons. It was chance that all the right chemicals for life came together and life evolved from non-life. It was chance that the forces in the universe, so finely balanced, came to be that way from the beginning of the universe to allow life to evolve. If there was no designer then it came about by chance. Natural forces that happened to interact in a certain way to allow sooooooooo much stuff to develop and be in existence.
I refer you to a previous answer about the nature of God.
There you go again! not chance! Nothing to do with chance! You realise how large the universe is? There are more stars than there are grains of sand on the earth. The odds of such stuff happening are small, but accross a universe of this size it will happen at least once! Pure maths. Just the same as a winning lottery ticket......Buy 20 million tickets and you will likely win. Now apply that by orders of magnitutde across the universe. Its bound to happen, numbers dictate it! Your "belief" on the other hand is just a cack handed "I cant really comprehend that so ill just say god did it"....which is why its nonsense, and lazy, and totally without any sunstane whatsoever.
And the previous answer on the nature of god....again, evidence???? Religion and belief in god relies on ignorance. Dont fall into that trap.
John Little
07-Mar-11, 15:06
I hope you are all enjoying your discourse.
But you will find no resolution of it.
Look to Siger of Brabant, Thomas Aquinas, Averroes, Avicenna and Aristotle.
You are fighting again the battles of the 13th century.
I just hope that one of you is not Peter Abelard....:eek:
There you go again! not chance! Nothing to do with chance! You realise how large the universe is? There are more stars than there are grains of sand on the earth. The odds of such stuff happening are small, but accross a universe of this size it will happen at least once! Pure maths. Just the same as a winning lottery ticket......Buy 20 million tickets and you will likely win. Now apply that by orders of magnitutde across the universe. Its bound to happen, numbers dictate it! Your "belief" on the other hand is just a cack handed "I cant really comprehend that so ill just say god did it"....which is why its nonsense, and lazy, and totally without any sunstane whatsoever.
And the previous answer on the nature of god....again, evidence???? Religion and belief in god relies on ignorance. Dont fall into that trap.
Again I disagree with your premise and your explanation. To me the evidence for design is clear. For you the evidence for....existence by probability is clear. But I've certainly enjoyed discussing this with you Weezer, thank you.
Is it angels dancing ON a pinhead - or angels dancing TO a pinhead?
John Little
07-Mar-11, 15:27
Is it angels dancing ON a pinhead - or angels dancing TO a pinhead?
That is an even more ancient dispute from the 6th century.
John Little
07-Mar-11, 15:28
Along with 'If holy water flows through the jaws of a dead dog, is it still holy?'
Then you get really complicated-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoousian
Room where?
As saveman is a Jehovah's Witness (no secret there) and he believes there is a 'place' in 'heaven', is my understanding that only 144,000 can go to this mysterious place correct?
Ah! I'm starting to see where some of these numbers are coming from... That is Jehovah's Witnesses belief... You were starting to lose me with where you got some of these ideas from, but now I realise! To the best of my knowledge, Jehovah's Witnesses do not class themselves as Christians, nor their Kingdom Hall as a Church.
But we're talking about 'God'?
As saveman is a Jehovah's Witness (no secret there) and he believes there is a 'place' in 'heaven', is my understanding that only 144,000 can go to this mysterious place correct?
Rev 14:1-3 is the reference you're looking for. Not sure about a mysterious place? Just heaven :)
Ok. In this experiment who does the person who drops the coins for a million years represent?
Well I understand that certain religions state the earth was formed 10,000 years ago (hmm) so it would not be any of them - but taking this a stage further; if 1 million people threw 10 coins in the air, with certain luck there would be an occasion that it would occur for these ten coins to land on top of each other, surely that's not intelligent design but pure chance?
Well I understand that certain religions state the earth was formed 10,000 years ago (hmm) so it would not be any of them - but taking this a stage further; if 1 million people threw 10 coins in the air, with certain luck there would be an occasion that it would occur for these ten coins to land on top of each other, surely that's not intelligent design but pure chance?
It could happen. I suspect if you came across ten coins piled up you wouldn't think that it was likely that pure chance had put them there. You'd think it far more likely that someone placed them there.
No it isnt!! Thats the point! You need evidence!
Would you agree that standing on the earth looking at the skies gives the illusion that the heavens rotate around us?? Yet this is wrong. Itsan illusion. Knowledge of science shows that the earth si actually rotating. The same for human beings, the world, the galaxy and universe.
And to say it happened by chance shows just how far your understanding of such matters goes. Graviational forces moulded the universe into the galaxies. stars and planets we see today. Where the hell is the chance in that?????? None! Same for humans. natural selection, not chance! An eyeball didnt just form you know, it evolved.
Astonishing ignorance. Truly astonshing.
And 1 question, your god, who designed him? Or was he a chance occurance?
Poor old Galileo discovered that the sun does not rotate around the earth, it was all rubbish, but The scriptures could not be wrong but these heretical theories had to be stopped. Galileo was threatened to recant; he did, and it was not until 1992 Pope John Paul II officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary - it revolved around the sun..
But 'spose they knew no better, it took hundreds of years.. taking that as a bench mark I wonder what will be discovered in the next few hundred years to put certain other things to bed?
I'm looking for the scriptures that say that the sun revolves around the earth but I just can't seem to find them....
I'm looking for the scriptures that say that the sun revolves around the earth but I just can't seem to find them....
Joshua 10:12-13?
Joshua 10:12-13?
Doesn't say that the Earth is stationary and the sun revolves around the Earth. It does say the sun was motionless in the sky but then we still say the sun is setting...or rising....
If you know how God created the Earth, can you tell me how I can create my own Universe? I have a false vacuum in the cupboard under the stairs, but do I need my own inflaton, and, if so, do you know where I can get one? Do Tesco sell them?
I've had a check with Tesco, but they say that have nothing in (at the moment) that will drive a period of rapid expansion from 10−35 to 10−34 seconds after the initial expansion.. but could you ring 'em and they will see what they can do...
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 17:24
not 100% sure that the bible does say that the heavens moved round the earth. However, the vatican, alongside most people on this message board who support religion, symbolically set the earth at the centre of the universe seeing as god man man in his own image. This was depite the fact that the greeks new before 1ad that the earth was curved. The vatican ignored scientific evidence and prosecuted gallileo.
The same happens today on the message baord. People ignore scientific evidence and assume god exists through a lack of knowledge/understanding or an abundance of ignorance
Actually, Folks - it's now only 143,999. Noblesse oblige.......
Greenland
07-Mar-11, 18:14
Love and God are nonsense? You have very fixed views for someone with an open mind. I think you like to try and 'win' arguments and you do not actually appear to be interested in learning anything, therefore I have nothing to teach you or discuss with you. Your negative stance does you no favours, wins you no friends and closes your heart as well as your mind. Find your own 'evidence' try and ask, with faith, God to talk to you, try a Neale Walsch book such as conversations with God.
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 18:54
Love and God are nonsense? You have very fixed views for someone with an open mind. I think you like to try and 'win' arguments and you do not actually appear to be interested in learning anything, therefore I have nothing to teach you or discuss with you. Your negative stance does you no favours, wins you no friends and closes your heart as well as your mind. Find your own 'evidence' try and ask, with faith, God to talk to you, try a Neale Walsch book such as conversations with God.
Please. Im at a loss sometimes.
My view isnt fixed, if god appeared before the world today and demonstarted the ability to defy the laws of physics on demand, id ditch the scientific view of creation in an instant, as observation would clearly show god to exists. Until such point, ill stick to reason with my "closed mind" and form opinions based on demonstrable and observational fact. Id suggest you do the same with regard to religion as you clearly do this in everyday life, why not religion?
Furthermore, im not trying to win any argument. Ill never convince you god doesnt exist. The best I can do is try and make you approach subjects based on the principles I suggest above. If you do that you will figure out god, religion and everything in between is nonsense and lacking in any sort of evidence at all.
And lastly, love has nothing to do with god. Love is a chemical reaction within your body. Extremely powerful no doubt, but a chemical reaction, not something bestowed on you by god.
Now, evidence for the existence of god please if you please, not attaching the name god to what we not yet understand
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 19:09
In fact greenland, id go as far as to say its your biew that is fixed. Inspite of mountains of mutually buttressed evidence to the contrary, you believe in god,
John Little
07-Mar-11, 23:06
The existence of God is probably not as important as what has been done in his/her name. We live in the Godzone as most of the human race are religious in one way or another.
Much of our music, our culture, our laws and our civilisation has been framed or inspired with reference to God.
Without God the world would be a different shape. So would morality, ethics, philosophy, poetry, art, architecture and History. I would miss it greatly if it were not there.
In fact if there is no God it might be necessary to invent him.
Perhaps God is "Love" in the way that God is social control- that we are constrained to behave in certain ways out of mutual self-interest - or love? God is a human reference point against which we moderate our behaviour.
Like Democratic 'consent' God is a necessary myth?
Greenland
07-Mar-11, 23:07
Yes I have faith in God, read the book I suggested and maybe you will find answers that help you to also believe.
John Little
07-Mar-11, 23:15
If you are speaking to me- I do not need to believe in God. I acknowledge that a God phenomenon cannot be ignored if a person wishes to understand the world. But acknowledging the necessity of a God construct in peoples' mind does not imply that he is real.
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 23:18
Greenland, I, unlike 40% of "christians" have read the bible, and ive even made a decent fist of the Koran too. Again, I state, there is no evidence to supports it, unlike say the evidence to say that the human race originated in east africa 200 000 years ago.
John,
Morals have nothing to do with religion. This is one fo the biggest misconceptions about it. Your morals come from evolution. Hence the reason I dont rape woman and murder non believers, like in the bible. I am also not homophobic or, as is the case with the likes of Abraham, willing to sacrifice family members. morals are products of evolution.
Christians ask yourself, if there was no god, would you be mad rapists/murders/pillagers?? Or would you carry on as normal??
The Music Monster
07-Mar-11, 23:33
Greenland, I, unlike 40% of "christians" have read the bible, and ive even made a decent fist of the Koran too. Again, I state, there is no evidence to supports it, unlike say the evidence to say that the human race originated in east africa 200 000 years ago.
John,
Morals have nothing to do with religion. This is one fo the biggest misconceptions about it. Your morals come from evolution. Hence the reason I dont rape woman and murder non believers, like in the bible. I am also not homophobic or, as is the case with the likes of Abraham, willing to sacrifice family members. morals are products of evolution.
Christians ask yourself, if there was no god, would you be mad rapists/murders/pillagers?? Or would you carry on as normal??
Religion, as with all things in the world, is not that black and white. You can spout on about proving this and that but I think you will find that YOU prove very little of the things you have faith in. A scientist told you the big bang happened, he told you his proof - but YOU can't prove it.
There is a strong argument that self-preservation would prevent the need of a God-figure, but then from the earliest settlements that we have been able to decipher there have been supreme beings in cultures, so the argument is a bit void - having had a deity-based moral code it is impossible to try and assume what it would be like without it.
With all of these posts, all that you are doing is antagonising people. You may have a good point to make, but your cut-throat and limited assessment of believe - not to mention that you haven't understood the word belief at all, as you keep going on about proof and evidence - means that a number of people will treat you like a fundamentalist atheist, and as such your views are as well thought out and argued as any fundamentalist theist.
I think you are trying to say fundamentalism is dangerous - and on that I agree with you.
weezer 316
08-Mar-11, 00:29
Music,
i understand what belief is. What hasnt been asnwered is why you believe in religion and a god, depsite no evidence, when you would require evidence for everything else you believe.
Imagine you were put on trial for murder and were convicted for it despite their being no evidence. You would be very aggrieved to say the least. You suspend reason when it comes to religion, knowing that if you applied reason to it it would see the holes.
Secondly, I proved nothing, but then what has the bible? I accept a scientist wird as his word is based on testable observation. In practice I could hire a telescope and test the epxnasion of the universe using a prism and some software to measure redshift myself, as has been done mlllions of times by astronomers. The evidence is there, and you know it. To say I haven't proved anything is you trying to undermine me rather than the evidence I talk of, and a its normally religions last resort.
Thirdly, fundamentalism is believing one thing and refusing to belive another regardless of evidence to the contrary. If god appeared before the world, performed miracles that were PROVEN to be in violation of the laws of the universe, I would believe in god in an instant, seeing as there was evidence to support it. At present there is none, and a 2000 year old book certainly isnt that
Lastly, if I am antogonising then simply dont read my replies. Although id swear most werent anyway, especially those that disagree with me.
And lastly our morals are not deity based. To say they are is lazy, and is totally undermined by the bible.
Now answer me this. Why do you not apply reason, testable, scientific observation, to religion? Miracles clearly violate the laws of physics, answer me why reason is suspended when religion is brought up? And If the answer is "because I choose too" then I say that its ebcause you either havent thought about it or lack the necessary understanding of the big bang and/or evolution
The curve of human knowledge since the Stone Age (and before) has accelerated to give, under current observation, the nature of an exponential curve.
If the "x" axis is time in years, and the "y" axis is knowledge, then we see a curve shooting up until it is almost running parallel to the right hand, or far side, of the "x" axis.
Now, the purpose of the human race is grounded in the childlike (not childISH) virtue of curiosity - the desire and drive to acquire knowledge.
The nature of the exponential curve is that it can never reach the right hand side of the "x" axis. Sure, it gets closer and closer, but that gap cannot mathematically close.
The nature of knowledge, predicated on the function of the exponential curve, means that ALL knowledge can NEVER be known to man.
(If, hypothetically, the situation occurred whereby the laws of science and mathematics were to be placed in abeyance, and that somehow the human race DID acquire ALL knowledge, then its purpose would have become complete, and, bereft of the driving force to acquire more knowledge which was no longer there, it would atrophy, decline, and be succeeded by cockroaches or passing aliens.)
So, if we go back to the conceit of the "exponential curve of knowledge" I come to the following conclusion:
The irrefutable, scientific and mathematical lacuna, or "gap" - however small - between the ever-accelerating and rising "x"/"y" curve, and the right hand side of the "x" axis, currently lacks a name.
Or does it? I prefer to call this mysterious area "God"
I appreciate I might be wrong. I have the humility to know that Einstein and I share few synaptic connections. But it's good to think, isn't it?
John Little
08-Mar-11, 08:41
"And lastly our morals are not deity based. To say they are is lazy, and is totally undermined by the bible."
Firstly - I did not say morals were deity based. I said our morality is shaped by the God construct. Bentham and Mill both satisfy me that morality is self-interest. It is self evident that sane human beings will work together for the greater good and that this will lead to forms of behaviour that benefit most. However morality is a human concept and what shapes it are forces within society. Religion is a great force and, although it might not create morality, it certainly does shape it. I would view anyone who said otherwise as a polemicist.
Secondly, to excoriate what you do not agree with as 'lazy' does not help your cause or invalidate the notion of the God construct shaping morality. The merest glance at Egyptian wall paintings or reading Homer about Furies and Erinyes might cause you to rethink that idea. If you think that different societies down through the ages have not held up the fear of divine consequences as an incentive and that this has not impacted on social morality then I can only assure you that you are mistaken.
weezer 316
08-Mar-11, 09:09
The curve of human knowledge since the Stone Age (and before) has accelerated to give, under current observation, the nature of an exponential curve.
If the "x" axis is time in years, and the "y" axis is knowledge, then we see a curve shooting up until it is almost running parallel to the right hand, or far side, of the "x" axis.
Now, the purpose of the human race is grounded in the childlike (not childISH) virtue of curiosity - the desire and drive to acquire knowledge.
The nature of the exponential curve is that it can never reach the right hand side of the "x" axis. Sure, it gets closer and closer, but that gap cannot mathematically close.
The nature of knowledge, predicated on the function of the exponential curve, means that ALL knowledge can NEVER be known to man.
(If, hypothetically, the situation occurred whereby the laws of science and mathematics were to be placed in abeyance, and that somehow the human race DID acquire ALL knowledge, then its purpose would have become complete, and, bereft of the driving force to acquire more knowledge which was no longer there, it would atrophy, decline, and be succeeded by cockroaches or passing aliens.)
So, if we go back to the conceit of the "exponential curve of knowledge" I come to the following conclusion:
The irrefutable, scientific and mathematical lacuna, or "gap" - however small - between the ever-accelerating and rising "x"/"y" curve, and the right hand side of the "x" axis, currently lacks a name.
Or does it? I prefer to call this mysterious area "God"
I appreciate I might be wrong. I have the humility to know that Einstein and I share few synaptic connections. But it's good to think, isn't it?
Complete and utter nonsense. God, creator of the universe and all in existance not very long ago is now reduced to god of the gaps, a bridge for things we dont understand. You can call our lack of knowldege in an area god if you want, that doesnt make it true. Thats the entire point that you are clearly failing to grasp. Lack of knowledge in a area is proof of nohting bar the fact we do not yet fully understand said phenomena.
If you appraciate you may be wrong, consider this point:
The life, planet earth and the universe are complex things, on that we all agree. By the silly watchmaker anaology earlier, assumptions are made that it takes a complex thing to make a simpler thing, despite clear evidence starts and planets are buld from clouds of dust through gravitation forces, and that life arose from a tiny simple one cell creature to what we see today, evolving ocer billions of years.
Now if you dismiss that as too unlikely, how more likely is it that a supreme being exists to design it all given its complexity? Logic would dictate, if you believe the watchmaker analogy, that the creator must be at least as complex. And there you have a brickwall.......and thats before you even ask who designed the deigner
Walter Ego
08-Mar-11, 09:43
Yes I have faith in God, read the book I suggested and maybe you will find answers that help you to also believe.
Why do you feel the need to 'help' others follow your belief?
Isn't that a rather insular approach? It would appear that you are unwilling to discuss, merely evangalise.
Thank you for your (sadly) more than predictable reply, based on the very simple concept, "I am right, and therefore my knowledge is superior to yours". The sheer arrogance of describing my submission as "complete and utter nonsense" is breathtaking. You mention "a bridge for things we don't understand" without taking in what you have actually said: if (as indeed there ARE) things we don't understand, then that means we do not yet KNOW them. And if we cannot posit with certainty on issues not yet known, then we - or in this case YOU - cannot argue from a position not yet made certain.
Knowledge has not always progressed in a linear form - sometimes yesterdays heresies become tomorrow's facts - but in general, we acquire knowledge because that is one of our prime driving functions. And that knowledge, with occasional set backs and red herrings, HAS increased with great acceleration, particularly from the renaissance onwards.
"You can call our lack of knowledge in an area god if you want, that doesn't make it true". Bit condescending, that. How can you be SURE when you are arguing armed only with an incomplete canon of knowledge. Come on, Weezer, even you don't know everything!
Secondly, referring to that dismissive quote, you're dead right. I CAN call that "lack of knowledge" god. In exactly the same way you can tell me I'm talking tosh. That doesn't make my comments less valid than yours.
"Lack of knowledge in an area is proof of nothing bar the fact we do not yet fully understand said phenomena". Precisely, and oh, how I do agree with you on that sentence! The fact that we do not yet fully understand "said phenomena" demonstrably runs counter to your own certainty that you are right, and anyone who dares approach you with alternative thinking must be wrong. I repeat, you are arguing certainties with an armoury bereft of the totality of the ammunition required so to do. Also knowledge is not predictive, relying as it does on the positing and affirmation of factual additions and revisions to the body of existing knowledge, so your present certainties might easily be turned on their head with the discovery of further and non linear (i.e. revolutionary) addition to the corpus of what we know. My mind is open to that possibility. Is yours?
As to the rest: sure, planet earth, and indeed the universe are complex constructs, and we poor mortals strive to understand it with increasing but ultimately limited success. The watchmaker may acquire and demonstrate his expertise over a lifetime, but man's search for knowledge is cathedric.
I have no doubt that evolution is as you described - simple cells and dust clouds - in the same way that I also believe that the "gap" I call God created the world. Genesis is my text. He created the world in seven days (well, with a bit of a break on Sunday). Key to that understanding is exactly how long the stated "day" was. Especially in a distant era before notions of time had been calibrated. Was a day a day? Or a year, or 100 years, or 100.000,000 years? (Yes, that bit was borrowed from "Inherit the Wind")
The reason I am taking time to engage with you is that I want to discover on what grounds you have such an apparently visceral dislike of any belief system not based on fact or reason. I find I can cheerfully rub along with atheists, and holders of any belief from Jedi Knight to Buddhist, without intellectually frothing at the mouth and describing anyone who does not subscribe to my elevated platform of thought as nonsensical. I find most people fall into that category. You clearly do not.
Why?
weezer 316
08-Mar-11, 11:39
meerkat
Its based on the concept there is testable and observationable evidence! Nothing to do with I am right, although I am sure I am. Its based on reason and observation, and I have said that 20 times this thread, infact its somehing you hace chided me for!
So you have clearly made that first point up.
Secondly, calling a gap in knowledge god, which I already said you can do if you want, doesnt make it true, and you know it. You can call it mary poppins if you want, again that doesnt make it true no matter how vigourisly your protest.
Thirdly, anyone who appraoches with alternative thinknig must be wrong?? Did you miss me saying that if you have testable evidence that matches observation, you may be right, and I would back you if that was the case. You on the other hand have a 2000 year old book that you twist the words of ("Key to that understanding is exactly how long the stated "day" was") for your own benefit in vain attempt to undermine knowledge.
I oppose things which run coutner to reason and established fact, like religions, becuase thats an awful way of thinking that would put us back to the stone age.
Imagine if murder cases were decided on belief rather than fact? DNA evidence? nooooo....I BELIEVE YOU KILLED COLONOL MUSTARD therefore you must have! What about medicine? What about the very laws that protect you? Absurd. Your reasoning, if I can call it that, belongs to the dak ages
You apply reason every day in the same way I do, why not religion?
Lastly I aint frothing at the mouth. I enjoy a good debate as much as the next man.
"Nothing to do with with I am right, although I am sure I am"
After that, there can be very little left for me to to say. In your world, you ARE unassailable. The rest of us will somehow find it in us to carry on.....
weezer 316
08-Mar-11, 12:15
Usual religious ignorance. i clearly say before what its based on. You ignore it. Just as you do evidence to the contrary about religon.
Answer my last points please.
I regret I cannot answer your last points. I am ignorant.
The Music Monster
08-Mar-11, 12:34
Now answer me this. Why do you not apply reason, testable, scientific observation, to religion? Miracles clearly violate the laws of physics, answer me why reason is suspended when religion is brought up? And If the answer is "because I choose too" then I say that its ebcause you either havent thought about it or lack the necessary understanding of the big bang and/or evolution
Again... B-E-L-I-E-F! When you understand what it means and you are ready to have a debate over belief instead trying to apply evidence and proof to everything we'll talk further.
And, coincidently, I don't require proof for anything I believe in, because I know what the word "belief" means[lol]!
weezer 316
08-Mar-11, 12:55
Again... B-E-L-I-E-F! When you understand what it means and you are ready to have a debate over belief instead trying to apply evidence and proof to everything we'll talk further.
And, coincidently, I don't require proof for anything I believe in, because I know what the word "belief" means[lol]!
Well said music monster! I rest my case. Thankfully I live in an age when reason triumphs over unsubstatiated nonsense.
When you apply reason you will agree with me to the word. And the funny thing is I think you know it too
secrets in symmetry
09-Mar-11, 01:38
Firstly, No I cant. We dont know what banged, why it banged, what happened before it banged or even what caused it to bang. This is an area of active research. I think the gravitation detectors currently being built by nasa for use over the next decade should allow us at least a small window into which to peer into these mysteries.
Perhaps you could ask god, who I am sure started the whole process off! Oh wait, where the hell did he come from then!God won't tell me, and you can't tell me.
I've had a check with Tesco, but they say that have nothing in (at the moment) that will drive a period of rapid expansion from 10−35 to 10−34 seconds after the initial expansion.. but could you ring 'em and they will see what they can do...
Looks like I'll have to try that because God won't tell me how to create my own universe, Weezer doesn't know, and you had to look it up.
I'd rather like mine to inflate for ever, I'm not keen on these quickie bangs.
A great debate so far and one which I am enjoying reading. I think that today weezer we have moved very far from being the age of reason. I do agree that religions are not founded on the basis of reason but on the emotional response of faith and everyone has that right of choice. If we name the belief in a power greater and outside of humans as God then this concept was based initially on reason. History does not show of any divine intervention with early man but they still formed a belief system in God and it was formed by what they observed in nature thus applying reason to create their own belief system. This for me says that the concept of god in different forms has been around pretty much as long as humans.
northener
09-Mar-11, 10:16
http://www.venganza.org/
Fall to your knees and worship, unworthy ones.
No need for outrage, Madam. Just tongue in cheek:cool:
The Music Monster
09-Mar-11, 10:24
Well said music monster! I rest my case. Thankfully I live in an age when reason triumphs over unsubstatiated nonsense.
When you apply reason you will agree with me to the word. And the funny thing is I think you know it too
Go back to your dictionary and look up the word BELIEF
You are clearly losing this argument - not because what your saying is proved to be wrong, it is your belief so it cannot be (notice how the word belief cannot be proved, even for you), but because you are no longer forming a well constructed argument. Science v Religion is not a good argument as most of the world's best celebrated scientist belong to one religion or another. And you've proved you have no idea what the vocabulary of this particular study is.
At first your approach irritated me, not because I thought your belief was not evidentially right or wrong - I know that beliefs work on a different level of truths - but because your approach would never be tolerated in half-decent debate, being so ill approached. Now, though, I just feel sympathy for you. You do not understand what you are talking about, on one provable fault: You don't understand the word belief means and yet you are condemning other people who do.
Come back when your argument does not rely on the words "proof" and "evidence"...
Go back to your dictionary and look up the word BELIEF
Come back when your argument does not rely on the words "proof" and "evidence"...
That's a bit harsh on poor weezer MM. :lol:
There was a time when human beings believed nothing. In the early stages of their evolution for example. Our thinking was focused purely on what was in front of our noses. Just like animals.
Gradually as our consciousness evolved into the thinking machine it is today we started to think forward and reflect. We developed emotions such as love and guilt and conscience. Darn nuisance they can be too. We started to recognise personal needs especially the love of our parents or main carer. Its very comforting to know we are loved.
I can only imagine how comforting it must be to believe in a universal father watching over our every move.
Your right. Belief doesn't need evidence but there's lots of proof that belief itself can be delusory.
Well said, Music Monster. You have spelt it out so well. I was so livid at weezer's "cracked gramophone record" approach to what SHOULD be debate that I had decided it was a lost cause continuing. Nothing could penetrate that Chobham armour of obduracy, and it seemed to me that to bang on with my reasons for the existence of God would (eventually!) bore the balls off a bishop, and at the same time give even more of the oxygen of publicity to Mr. Factuality. Facts are only part of the human story. Belief, trust, faith, love, charity, hope - all alien corn to our friend. Not a good place to be Well done for pointing it out!
Greenland
09-Mar-11, 11:29
Why do you feel the need to 'help' others follow your belief?
Isn't that a rather insular approach? It would appear that you are unwilling to discuss, merely evangalise.
I don't have a need for anyone to follow what I believe, I was trying to help you and anyone who else who wants to find a way to God. You are clearly more interested in spouting off and it's not clever. I don't have to discussor evidence my views with you as I have faith and personal experience of Gods love in my life.
Love that site and will be back whenever I need a laugh :-)
No need to duck northener I never do outrage and rarely swing my handbag. lol
I have faith and personal experience of Gods love in my life.
Anyone has the capacity to believe in God. I accept the argument offered here that believing is all it takes and then God kicks in.
Its the nature of belief that needs challenged. Not the concept of God. That God exists is beyond question but whether he exists only in the confines of indivudaul skulls or whether he is out there in the universe is the burning question. It cant be both ways and it's such a tenuious connection that not to challenge it would be criminal.
Saveman believes in God because he cant believe the universe with all its complexities began from nothing. Yet hes quite happy to believe that God existed forever. I wonder what God did before he created the universe?
It's important to suggest that God believers may be deluded in as respectful a way as possible.
I'm doing my best. :lol:
Science v Religion is not a good argument as most of the world's best celebrated scientist belong to one religion or another.
There's a few here who don't (List was too long to print out): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology
Well said, Music Monster. You have spelt it out so well. I was so livid at weezer's "cracked gramophone record" approach to what SHOULD be debate that I had decided it was a lost cause continuing. Nothing could penetrate that Chobham armour of obduracy, and it seemed to me that to bang on with my reasons for the existence of God would (eventually!) bore the balls off a bishop, and at the same time give even more of the oxygen of publicity to Mr. Factuality. Facts are only part of the human story. Belief, trust, faith, love, charity, hope - all alien corn to our friend. Not a good place to be Well done for pointing it out!
"I was so Livid" eh? I thought you lot were full of love and things?
onecalledk
09-Mar-11, 12:00
As human beings we cannot comprehend outside of time, the reply above which asks the question "I wonder what god did before he created the universe" is perhaps too complicated for human beings to work out. We as a race CREATED time, we created the days, the hours and the minutes to form a day out of what would otherwise be chaos. It helps us to run our everyday lives that little bit better if we can all decide what point it is 3pm etc etc .....
It is pointless to argue about the length of time it took for something to be created because time was only recently (in the span of human beings living) created by us. Perhaps the rest of the universe doesnt use time as a measurement? You could go round and round in circles with this because it is very difficult indeed for the human brain to understand infininty.
As a child I used to ask what was at the edge of the universe, I just couldnt quite comprehend something continuing for eternity. Perhaps everything makes more sense if we take the time and date stuff out of the search for god, he didnt create "time" , we did.
K
orkneycadian
09-Mar-11, 12:04
We as a race CREATED time, we created the days, the hours and the minutes to form a day out of what would otherwise be chaos.
Never a bit. We just created the yardstick by which time can be "measured". Time did not suddenly appear as a concept the day someone invented a sundial!
Just the same as distance existed before someone invented the foot / metre / cubit or whatever. Mass existed before the kilogram / Shekel or whatever was defined.
That's always a good default stance for the deluded k. It's beyond our comprehension so there must be something else. Nonsense.
Humans didn't create time. Time exists in the universe along with space. I tried to point that out to you before but you don't get it. All humans did was use time for their convenience. Its what we do. We use our environment to survive. we invented minutes and hours and days and years because that's how the mechaical universe works.
From the time of the hunter/gatherers art gives us clear evidence that human being although living a privative life were not primitive thinkers. They laid the foundation for human survival creating, family and society as well as being the first scientists, doctors and artists as well as creating belief systems. Different from us in many ways but sharing with all human beings regardless of time and place the same abilities to love, hate, feel and make choices about the future.
Have we evolved further than early humans in our ability to reason or in our emotional capacity? I don’t think so. We appear to have lost the ability to consider the future we are creating for future generations.
onecalledk
09-Mar-11, 13:32
That's always a good default stance for the deluded k. It's beyond our comprehension so there must be something else. Nonsense.
Humans didn't create time. Time exists in the universe along with space. I tried to point that out to you before but you don't get it. All humans did was use time for their convenience. Its what we do. We use our environment to survive. we invented minutes and hours and days and years because that's how the mechaical universe works.
I dont consider myself to be deluded any more than you consider yourself to be deluded, its a matter of opinion. If you believe that time is there for our convenience then so be it, it appears to be working against us more and more. As human beings we are controlled by time in a way that our predecessors never were. We no longer go with the flow of the universe and how it works , we created the contraints that have us on little hamster wheels always watching the clock.
There is a natural ebb and flow that exists in the universe and human beings are far from being in harmony with this.
K
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 14:17
As human beings we cannot comprehend outside of time, the reply above which asks the question "I wonder what god did before he created the universe" is perhaps too complicated for human beings to work out. We as a race CREATED time, we created the days, the hours and the minutes to form a day out of what would otherwise be chaos. It helps us to run our everyday lives that little bit better if we can all decide what point it is 3pm etc etc .....
It is pointless to argue about the length of time it took for something to be created because time was only recently (in the span of human beings living) created by us. Perhaps the rest of the universe doesnt use time as a measurement? You could go round and round in circles with this because it is very difficult indeed for the human brain to understand infininty.
As a child I used to ask what was at the edge of the universe, I just couldnt quite comprehend something continuing for eternity. Perhaps everything makes more sense if we take the time and date stuff out of the search for god, he didnt create "time" , we did.
K
I almost wasnt gonna reply to this, but i just have to.
Look up spacetime and the general theory or reletivity. Is effects were laid out by einstein in 1915. Enough said
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 14:24
Go back to your dictionary and look up the word BELIEF
You are clearly losing this argument - not because what your saying is proved to be wrong, it is your belief so it cannot be (notice how the word belief cannot be proved, even for you), but because you are no longer forming a well constructed argument. Science v Religion is not a good argument as most of the world's best celebrated scientist belong to one religion or another. And you've proved you have no idea what the vocabulary of this particular study is.
At first your approach irritated me, not because I thought your belief was not evidentially right or wrong - I know that beliefs work on a different level of truths - but because your approach would never be tolerated in half-decent debate, being so ill approached. Now, though, I just feel sympathy for you. You do not understand what you are talking about, on one provable fault: You don't understand the word belief means and yet you are condemning other people who do.
Come back when your argument does not rely on the words "proof" and "evidence"...
Come back when your argument doesnt rely on truths!?!?! Thats probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. What should I base an argument on? Just make it up as I go along! You know an argument is won when the other parties tell you to not base your argument on facts!
You know that beliefs work on a different level of truths eh?? Is that fact? Why are you even bothering to base your argument on fact, then chiding me for actually basing an argument on established testable scientific data!
I am literally laughing as I write this! You honestly cant see how absurd your argument is can you??
Now tell me, if I cant base an argument of facts, what should I base it on?
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 14:33
Infact, onecalled k or meerkat of symmetry or meerkat or even the bloody pope, answer me this, considering a general theme of your posts is that "god" is beyond science......
if science proved tommorow that Jesus was born without a father. I mean, solid, proper evidence such as discovering his remains or something and DNA testing them, would you dismiss it or trumpet it to the heavens??
An honest answer, and symettry Ill tell you now, if you are gonna start using those silly things called facts in your replies I will need to report you to the moderator!
Is there anything more futile than trying to argue a point with a religious believer ?
If anyone is struggling to understand infinity, then it will be easily demonstrated as the number of postings in this thread before a conclusion is reached.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 14:51
One of the people who was arguing for god on this thread messaged me asking if I could recommend any literature to read as he was impressed by my points. I said they were not really my points but are just well rehearsed arguments that religion cant answer without resorting to a NOMA type argument. Suffice to say if you can make someone think critically about religion, like they do with anything else, it falls apart very quickly
At last! Took me a while. But now I have the irrefutable proof I need for me, at least.
I believe in God.
This is a fact, as I know my belief to be true.
Ergo, God exists! (At least for me)
This is my argument, based on facts, which is true, and nobody can prove it otherwise.
I suspect it is true for the many millions who believe in their God, too.
Atheists don't believe in God.
For them God does NOT exist.
God likes free will a lot.
We theists allow for atheism, which is not generally reciprocated.
More energy is generated and expelled by atheists trying to prove themselves right than theists trying to prove atheists wrong.
Somebody is protesting too much.......
The Music Monster
09-Mar-11, 14:59
Come back when your argument doesnt rely on truths!?!?! Thats probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. What should I base an argument on? Just make it up as I go along! You know an argument is won when the other parties tell you to not base your argument on facts!
You know that beliefs work on a different level of truths eh?? Is that fact? Why are you even bothering to base your argument on fact, then chiding me for actually basing an argument on established testable scientific data!
I am literally laughing as I write this! You honestly cant see how absurd your argument is can you??
Glad to have made you smile! I never once said truths were the same as facts, because they're not. I do believe on this debate with you that I am the proverbial Socrates of John Stuart Mill's and you are the fool (or pig!). I guess it's something I'll have to live with!
"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question."
That's a bit harsh on poor weezer MM. :lol:
There was a time when human beings believed nothing. In the early stages of their evolution for example. Our thinking was focused purely on what was in front of our noses. Just like animals.
Gradually as our consciousness evolved into the thinking machine it is today we started to think forward and reflect. We developed emotions such as love and guilt and conscience. Darn nuisance they can be too. We started to recognise personal needs especially the love of our parents or main carer. Its very comforting to know we are loved.
I can only imagine how comforting it must be to believe in a universal father watching over our every move.
Your right. Belief doesn't need evidence but there's lots of proof that belief itself can be delusory.
This is true, there are strong suggestions that God has an existence out of a desire to know the world and humanity better, to understand the events around us. Karl Marx, when he discussed Religion as the opium of the people, was addressing this. He himself was a devout Jew until the end of his life, and saw the importance of religion to people. I do agree with all that you are saying here. The idea of delusionary beliefs is prevalent in the world especially to people who have never had a belief in a religion for whom it can sometimes cause fear of the unknown or simply a dismissive approach to different thinking - this also happens with some theists, I hasten to add!!! I think that in the rush to prove everything with a scientific approach there has been a neglect to understanding humanity and its relation to God on an emotive plane. Maybe this is the next step in theological debate...?
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 15:16
Insanity! You really should talk to yourselves in the mirror.You might then see the madness of your argument. The again maybe not. Meerket its a mute point, and you last point sounded a bit like 6yo say to each other. Your clearly wrong, your just seething but thats fine.
BTW im more than willing to meet any of you face to face to discuss this. Dont worry im only 5'6 and I have a soft spot for cats
Hate to be pedantic, but moot, not mute. Bit of a difference, old boy! Anyways up, I am totally confident in my "ignorance", and a find the mirror an acquiescent companion. I don't get out much these days, but the rubber room is quite nice.....
Also I appear to be getting younger. Earlier in the thread you likened me to a 14 year old girl. Now I'm six. At this rate, renaissance.......?
Nice thread folks bairns, keep it up, good debate going on here for a change,, lol,
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 15:46
Hate to be pedantic, but moot, not mute. Bit of a difference, old boy! Anyways up, I am totally confident in my "ignorance", and a find the mirror an acquiescent companion. I don't get out much these days, but the rubber room is quite nice.....
Also I appear to be getting younger. Earlier in the thread you likened me to a 14 year old girl. Now I'm six. At this rate, renaissance.......?
Im aware its moot, I deliberately spelt it mute as when people resort to pointing out spelling mistakes it normally means they are lost and need to get back on the offensive.
Not to worry, again, could you answer my point about science proving jesus didnt have a father? Or perhaps you could redouble your efforts to drill home the meaning of the word belief, or truth or possibly even facts?
Yes, and I delllibritly mispel wurds wen I get angry to, and want to cal it sumthing els. Oh I am SO lost and THANKYOU O WISE one for getting me to see the lite! Facts are, I have decided, I am right in my belief, you are right in yours. I don't mind you being wrong, but you do. Ain't liife a bitch?
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 16:08
Im so angry I was laughing at an earlier post! Just keep making it as you go along, like all religious folk.
Now fancy answering my question please?
Your right is to believe, but your belief aint right. And thats the crux of the argument. You believe without evidence, and your almost proud of it. People brought up being told what to think instead of how to think is what religion relies upon, that and ignorance. If that was to catch the world would be in chaos. Of course you will ignore my previous points on why, but thats your perogative.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 16:19
"This is my argument, based on facts, which is true, and nobody can prove it otherwise."
Based on what testable facts or observations? And are you so deluded you think that because someone cant prove something doesnt exist, that is a reason to believe it??
Utter lunacy. That last point will probably go over your head
So weezer you do not agree with religious beliefs and much of what you say I find reasonable and makes sense. I would be interested to know if putting religion aside who or what is God for you rather than saying what he is not or do you have a different belief or simply none at all.
Weezer, oh dear weezer, the fact-bound geezer! What a silly chap you are - and how foolish of me to forget that you only engage in this exchange to wind me up! You may feel free to call me a liar, a charlatan, a 14/6 year old, a refuser of reason, a mayfly, a dwarf, and no, I can't be answering your question as you will find the answer unacceptable. So I shall gird the loins, don the romantic lead's cape, and soar majestically over your head, and up to the stars where logic and mundanity fear to tread. I will sing, dance and revel, safe in the knowledge that I am in the hands of the Lord, and not at the beck and call of some suburban Pooter who cannot abide being wrong. Oh, how I shall cavort among the elite of smiling and welcoming souls, whilst you sup on the thin gruel of reason and the harsh rusk of reality. Oh, how I shall grip my sides in mirthful and delightful pain as I watch your poor uncomprehending visage peer rimlessly into the Slough of Despond. Oh, how I will wake and watch with the willing and the wanted, whilst you hug your slender volumes of structured and structured words. Oh - sod it, I've got to feed the birds, now.
Weezer, oh dear weezer, the fact-bound geezer! What a silly chap you are - and how foolish of me to forget that you only engage in this exchange to wind me up! You may feel free to call me a liar, a charlatan, a 14/6 year old, a refuser of reason, a mayfly, a dwarf, and no, I can't be answering your question as you will find the answer unacceptable. So I shall gird the loins, don the romantic lead's cape, and soar majestically over your head, and up to the stars where logic and mundanity fear to tread. I will sing, dance and revel, safe in the knowledge that I am in the hands of the Lord, and not at the beck and call of some suburban Pooter who cannot abide being wrong. Oh, how I shall cavort among the elite of smiling and welcoming souls, whilst you sup on the thin gruel of reason and the harsh rusk of reality. Oh, how I shall grip my sides in mirthful and delightful pain as I watch your poor uncomprehending visage peer rimlessly into the Slough of Despond. Oh, how I will wake and watch with the willing and the wanted, whilst you hug your slender volumes of structured and structured words. Oh - sod it, I've got to feed the birds, now.
So you've no Free Will then, Em?
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 17:15
Kells,
I have no god. Im 99.9% certain god doesnt exist. The religious argument seems to be that because you cant disprove something then thats justification of its existence, inspite of no evidence to support their view.
I like to call it common sense.
Evolution, cosmology and various other disciplines have explained wonderfully well how we came about and dont it int a testable way. What we dont yet understand I am confident we will one day, although there is so much to know we will probably never know everything.
Again however, religion is not above human knowledge, it is simply put there by religious apologists as they know fine well it doesnt stand up to reasoned argument, unless of course a piece of science supports their views.
Religion is a human construct, from a time when humans had very little control over their environment, and we made gods to try and get some sort of relationship with the world around us. Thats all it is. A primitive attempt of a primitive species to understand its world. We have long moved past that stage
Oh yes, Bekisman - free will to take up with God rather than ignore his presence. This is no capitulation, but a union which makes me stronger. A union which (me being a human) I sometimes forget - we've all got our darker sides - but by and large I am girded with a stout defence of joy against the rigours of this world, and eons away from the Chaucerian lament of man's condition which I find in many non-believers:
"This woruld nis but a thurghfare ful of wo
And we bene pylgrims passyng to and fro
Deeth is the ende of every woruldly soor"
Or to put it in the words of Meerkat, the great Poet of the Rubber Room
"I might just be a silly clod
Except that I believe in God"
(Copyright Meerkat Opera 2011)
Greenland
09-Mar-11, 17:26
Anyone has the capacity to believe in God. I accept the argument offered here that believing is all it takes and then God kicks in.
Its the nature of belief that needs challenged. Not the concept of God. That God exists is beyond question but whether he exists only in the confines of indivudaul skulls or whether he is out there in the universe is the burning question. It cant be both ways and it's such a tenuious connection that not to challenge it would be criminal.
Saveman believes in God because he cant believe the universe with all its complexities began from nothing. Yet hes quite happy to believe that God existed forever. I wonder what God did before he created the universe?
It's important to suggest that God believers may be deluded in as respectful a way as possible.
I'm doing my best. :lol:
I think that you are possibly frightened that I believe that there is a God and my belief is not based on organised religion but actual experience. Maybe stop insulting me and meditate, answer your doubts by truly asking God to come in to your life.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 17:30
Weezer, oh dear weezer, the fact-bound geezer! What a silly chap you are - and how foolish of me to forget that you only engage in this exchange to wind me up! You may feel free to call me a liar, a charlatan, a 14/6 year old, a refuser of reason, a mayfly, a dwarf, and no, I can't be answering your question as you will find the answer unacceptable. So I shall gird the loins, don the romantic lead's cape, and soar majestically over your head, and up to the stars where logic and mundanity fear to tread. I will sing, dance and revel, safe in the knowledge that I am in the hands of the Lord, and not at the beck and call of some suburban Pooter who cannot abide being wrong. Oh, how I shall cavort among the elite of smiling and welcoming souls, whilst you sup on the thin gruel of reason and the harsh rusk of reality. Oh, how I shall grip my sides in mirthful and delightful pain as I watch your poor uncomprehending visage peer rimlessly into the Slough of Despond. Oh, how I will wake and watch with the willing and the wanted, whilst you hug your slender volumes of structured and structured words. Oh - sod it, I've got to feed the birds, now.
And of course you know this to be true because you believe it! Doesnt matter that the sky is blue, I believe it to be green therefore it must be. To say its funny isnt doing it justice.
And again you avoid my questions. Religion for you. Dont waste precious ignorance in the real world, become religious! We can put your ignorance to good use spreading unsubstantiated nonsense and arguing something is true because you believe it is, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary
answer your doubts by truly asking God to come in to your life.
Why? I have no wish for your God or anyone elses, to come into my life. I am happy as I am, I can find no need from any of the 325 posts in this thread to make me change my mind
Walter Ego
09-Mar-11, 17:37
I don't have a need for anyone to follow what I believe, I was trying to help you and anyone who else who wants to find a way to God. You are clearly more interested in spouting off and it's not clever. I don't have to discussor evidence my views with you as I have faith and personal experience of Gods love in my life.
But I don't want to find a way to God. I'm convinced he doesn't exist.
My point is that rather than discuss, you chose to patronise by
assuming it was sheer ignorance and the fact that poor people like me are simply ignorant of an irrefutable truth. How you would you react to me waving an Athiest book title under your nose and saying "There, there, dear. Read this, it will make you all better again."?
You'd have a right pop at me wouldn't you?
That's exactly the same 'Christian' evangelicalism that sent missionaries forth to 'educate' the 'poor savages'.
So you think I'm just 'spouting off'? You appear to be displaying one of the most ignoble atributes of some followers of a given religion. The ability to turn on, very quickly, anyone who dares question your belief.
Some elloquence abounds!...
Today I understand is 'Lent'...............I notice certain people, believers, who make an Ash Cross on their foreheads.
I have seen it in both Canada and the United States....Is it common in the UK or elsewhere?
Weezer, I have no pleasure in answering your questions, when you dismiss anything I say as "religion", to be equated to fantasy. I have great difficulty, as you know, with the idea that your factual platform is incomplete, as all facts are not yet known. I put that to you earlier, and you glossed over it. You are NOT omniscient, and thus you do not have all the answers, or even enough to dismiss any other ideas posited to you. I have yet to see you prove that God does NOT exist. (And yes, I appreciate that you might say this was a case of shifting the burden of proof.) And you can't do that without being omniscient, which you are not. So while you continue to rail, I will continue (as you have been rather rude about me and God) to take the mickey out of you for your continuing and continual Postures of Reason. A true man of reason would at least accept that he didn't have all the answers, or was in possession of all facts. (Ye Gods, I'm banging on again!! Sorry to the rest of you, but it's got to be done!) Let me say it again, and simply. I do not know everything. You do not know everything. Ergo, neither of us can "prove" with "facts" that God exists/doesn't exist. However, both of us have chosen different flight-paths. I can understand and tolerate yours - but you find mine unacceptable.
Walter Ego
09-Mar-11, 17:48
Weezer, oh dear weezer, the fact-bound geezer! What a silly chap you are - and how foolish of me to forget that you only engage in this exchange to wind me up! You may feel free to call me a liar, a charlatan, a 14/6 year old, a refuser of reason, a mayfly, a dwarf, and no, I can't be answering your question as you will find the answer unacceptable. So I shall gird the loins, don the romantic lead's cape, and soar majestically over your head, and up to the stars where logic and mundanity fear to tread. I will sing, dance and revel, safe in the knowledge that I am in the hands of the Lord, and not at the beck and call of some suburban Pooter who cannot abide being wrong. Oh, how I shall cavort among the elite of smiling and welcoming souls, whilst you sup on the thin gruel of reason and the harsh rusk of reality. Oh, how I shall grip my sides in mirthful and delightful pain as I watch your poor uncomprehending visage peer rimlessly into the Slough of Despond. Oh, how I will wake and watch with the willing and the wanted, whilst you hug your slender volumes of structured and structured words. Oh - sod it, I've got to feed the birds, now.
Oh yes, Bekisman - free will to take up with God rather than ignore his presence. This is no capitulation, but a union which makes me stronger. A union which (me being a human) I sometimes forget - we've all got our darker sides - but by and large I am girded with a stout defence of joy against the rigours of this world, and eons away from the Chaucerian lament of man's condition which I find in many non-believers:
"This woruld nis but a thurghfare ful of wo
And we bene pylgrims passyng to and fro
Deeth is the ende of every woruldly soor"
Or to put it in the words of Meerkat, the great Poet of the Rubber Room
"I might just be a silly clod
Except that I believe in God"
(Copyright Meerkat Opera 2011)
I don't agree with your views, Meerkat. But a huge hats off to you for these two posts. Brilliant stuff.
Oh, and Chaucer nicked that off The Bede.
The Music Monster
09-Mar-11, 17:49
Some elloquence abounds!...
Today I understand is 'Lent'...............I notice certain people, believers, who make an Ash Cross on their foreheads.
I have seen it in both Canada and the United States....Is it common in the UK or elsewhere?
It is generally a "High Church" thing to do, just designed to be a reminder of biblical events surrounding Lent. It still happens in the RC Church here, and some Anglican ones... Beyond that I've not come across it.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 17:53
Weezer, I have no pleasure in answering your questions, when you dismiss anything I say as "religion", to be equated to fantasy. I have great difficulty, as you know, with the idea that your factual platform is incomplete, as all facts are not yet known. I put that to you earlier, and you glossed over it. You are NOT omniscient, and thus you do not have all the answers, or even enough to dismiss any other ideas posited to you. I have yet to see you prove that God does NOT exist. (And yes, I appreciate that you might say this was a case of shifting the burden of proof.) And you can't do that without being omniscient, which you are not. So while you continue to rail, I will continue (as you have been rather rude about me and God) to take the mickey out of you for your continuing and continual Postures of Reason. A true man of reason would at least accept that he didn't have all the answers, or was in possession of all facts. (Ye Gods, I'm banging on again!! Sorry to the rest of you, but it's got to be done!) Let me say it again, and simply. I do not know everything. You do not know everything. Ergo, neither of us can "prove" with "facts" that God exists/doesn't exist. However, both of us have chosen different flight-paths. I can understand and tolerate yours - but you find mine unacceptable.
Again you just make it up as you go along.
I have said on 3 occasions that science doesntt have all the answers, but it has many. Religion has none. Again you ignore this.
Secondly, and again, just because you cant prove something doesnt exist doesnt mean it does. You have awful trouble with this.
Thirdly, you say my "factual platform is incomplete". Can I ask at what stage of completeness, if that's even a word, is religion?
I dont expect and answer, but I woudl like one
These writers, Walter - always nicking stuff. Didn't know it was nicked from The Venerable. Bit like Shakespeare (or Marlowe/Bacon, etc.) always "borrowing" stories just out of copyright or out of reach. Still, all one under the Big G umbrella, what?!!!
Weezer, you've lost it! "Science doesn't have all the answers, but it has many. Religion has none." - Not having ALL is precisely why you can't give me proof of your construct. Whilst conceding that the likelihood of atheism being proved seems at least possible, what if succeeding known "knowns" turn the argument on its head. "Many" isn't good enough. "All" is the only word which will give your construct credence.
"Religion has none." Why do you insist on using the more irrational "religion" rather than the antithetical word to your belief of atheism - theism. It is, after all, Atheism vs. Theism, not Atheism vs Religion. Religion is man's INCOMPLETE interpretation of theism: hence the variety and intensity of religious followings around the world.
I do not have "awful trouble" with "just because you can't prove something doesn't exist doesn't mean it does". I have said neither theism or theism can be proved using facts, as neither of us have the complete body of evidence on which to make such a judgement. Remember the scientist who once said that by the end of the 20th century there might even be 4 or 5 computers doing everything for the world: Titanic was unsinkable according to its engineering designer: planes would never fly as they were heavier than air. Man's knowledge was incomplete, not contemporaneously wrong or misguided.
And yes, I DO say your factual platform is incomplete. So is mine. I have the humility to accept that. You then ask "at what stage of completeness, if that's even a word, is religion?"
First answer (pedantic). "Completeness. n. E17" Shorter Oxford Dictionary
Next bit. Once again you use the word religion. I don't. And, see earlier, the facts of theism lie in historic antecedency: the fact of millions of scholar hours poring over ancient documents to correlate and edit the eternal truths from the diurnal chaff: the fact of millions of people believing in their version of God over far too many centuries for it to have been mass hypnosis: the fact of present day western civilisation, having mainly turned its back on most religions, still stating that they believe in a spiritual dimension, even if it isn't a nice old man on a big cloud. And the fact that you will declare these NOT to be facts In the same way that your facts may well be illusory, or come to be supplanted by updated data.
Listen, all you have to do is to acknowledge that you shouldn't argue in Capital Letters when you only have a lower-case argument, just like mine?
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 18:49
Weezer, you've lost it! "Science doesn't have all the answers, but it has many. Religion has none." - Not having ALL is precisely why you can't give me proof of your construct. Whilst conceding that the likelihood of atheism being proved seems at least possible, what if succeeding known "knowns" turn the argument on its head. "Many" isn't good enough. "All" is the only word which will give your construct credence.
"Religion has none." Why do you insist on using the more irrational "religion" rather than the antithetical word to your belief of atheism - theism. It is, after all, Atheism vs. Theism, not Atheism vs Religion. Religion is man's INCOMPLETE interpretation of theism: hence the variety and intensity of religious followings around the world.
I do not have "awful trouble" with "just because you can't prove something doesn't exist doesn't mean it does". I have said neither theism or theism can be proved using facts, as neither of us have the complete body of evidence on which to make such a judgement. Remember the scientist who once said that by the end of the 20th century there might even be 4 or 5 computers doing everything for the world: Titanic was unsinkable according to its engineering designer: planes would never fly as they were heavier than air. Man's knowledge was incomplete, not contemporaneously wrong or misguided.
And yes, I DO say your factual platform is incomplete. So is mine. I have the humility to accept that. You then ask "at what stage of completeness, if that's even a word, is religion?"
First answer (pedantic). "Completeness. n. E17" Shorter Oxford Dictionary
Next bit. Once again you use the word religion. I don't. And, see earlier, the facts of theism lie in historic antecedency: the fact of millions of scholar hours poring over ancient documents to correlate and edit the eternal truths from the diurnal chaff: the fact of millions of people believing in their version of God over far too many centuries for it to have been mass hypnosis: the fact of present day western civilisation, having mainly turned its back on most religions, still stating that they believe in a spiritual dimension, even if it isn't a nice old man on a big cloud. And the fact that you will declare these NOT to be facts In the same way that your facts may well be illusory, or come to be supplanted by updated data.
Listen, all you have to do is to acknowledge that you shouldn't argue in Capital Letters when you only have a lower-case argument, just like mine?
Irrelevant what words you use meerkat! Religion, theism, the tooth fairy. You are clearly just wacking on hoping to make a point somewhere, anywhere, that cant be picked apart, and again it turns into a ramble. And you have one massive hole right in your ramble!
"The facts of theism lie in historic antecedency: the fact of millions of scholar hours poring over ancient documents to correlate and edit the eternal truths from the diurnal chaff: the fact of millions of people believing in their version of God over far too many centuries for it to have been mass hypnosis"
You had just said 2 paragrapghs before that "I have said neither theism or theism can be proved using facts, as neither of us have the complete body of evidence on which to make such a judgement."
So, in summary, the fact millions belived it over the ages means it cant be a delusion and therefore must be true, yet you state, in plain english just before that that theism cant be proved.
SO it is a delusion then??
Utter madness. Complete and utter madness.
When one person thinks napoleon talks to them tis madness. When millions do its religion
Is it any surprise why western civilization has turned its back on religion? Its because we have access to masses of information form which to make judgements. A 10yo with an internet connection has access to, and has been exposed to, more information than every person responsible for writing the bible and Quran combined!
And again, ill ask seeing as I havent had an answer, why do you believe your "contruct" which is totally lacking testable evidence, and not believe in mine, which is abundant in evidence?
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 18:57
bekisman,
I like your signature! Very good
Weezer, we really aren't getting any further. You have clearly made up your mind, and are standing at the corner of the bar, arms akimbo, with your jacket off, shouting "come on, then!". You are a cracked gramophone record. Simply, you haven't got enough facts to argue your case factually, and neither have I. So I'm afraid it's merely a question of shadow-boxing, and who's got the greater stamina. Luckily, I've got God on my side. (I think, by and large, what with him being omniscient and all that, and kind of in favour of that which brightens rather than depresses, that he's more likely to take my side than somebody who - unbelievably! - doesn't even think he exists). As to the rant - I gave some examples of some facts - I still hold to my main argument which is (sigh)
Until or unless both of us have complete knowledge of every fact past, present or future, then neither of us will be able to prove or disprove the existence of God. I have the benefit of an extra dimension apparently rejected by you, that of belief, or faith. This seems to annoy you. Good!
Kells,
I have no god. Im 99.9% certain god doesnt exist. The religious argument seems to be that because you cant disprove something then thats justification of its existence, inspite of no evidence to support their view.
I like to call it common sense.
Evolution, cosmology and various other disciplines have explained wonderfully well how we came about and dont it int a testable way. What we dont yet understand I am confident we will one day, although there is so much to know we will probably never know everything.
Again however, religion is not above human knowledge, it is simply put there by religious apologists as they know fine well it doesnt stand up to reasoned argument, unless of course a piece of science supports their views.
Religion is a human construct, from a time when humans had very little control over their environment, and we made gods to try and get some sort of relationship with the world around us. Thats all it is. A primitive attempt of a primitive species to understand its world. We have long moved past that stage
I like that you retain that 1% open to question yourself. I would say what has been on this thread so far has been mainly about the Christian Church and personal beliefs in it and not about belief or non belief in the concept of god.
Many disciplines and religions certainly give many intelligent and interesting answers some for and some against but neither side I find can prove to me beyond doubt about the question of god.
Of course religion is a human construct but that does not mean that it dates from the time when humans led primitive lives. I would point out that although their lives were primitive it does not mean that their thinking was primitive. This premise is not based on supposition but on recorded knowledge of the times in which they lived. The need of humanity to try and control nature has been present from the start and perhaps that does explain the need for humanity to believe in something or someone more powerful than nature or themselves.
We have no more control of the world we live in today than early man had, so this is not a stage in life but an integral past of what humanity has been and remains. .You cannot dismiss our relationship with the world around us as being “That is all it is” I think we also need to retain an open mind to the reality that humans may have an inbuilt need to believe in god and there is evidence that this need has been world wide and a continuance of need through many millions of years. To dismiss these facts is a denial of reason and perhaps even a denial of our humanity.
The Happy Humanist
09-Mar-11, 19:17
Interesting perspective in the "Food for Thought" article in today's Courier. It's by Fr John Allen and concerns faith and belief.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 19:22
Haha!
Another massive hole, see last paragraph of this post.
Here go, the religious apologists argument:
1: Quote holy book
2: Quote the masses who believe in it
3: When Quotes are picked up and shown to contradict fact, twist quotes and hope no one can see the holes
4: Once quotes are out the window, move to the NOMA argument, that is that god cant be disproven or god of the gaps theory. Or both.
5: Once thats shot to pieces, requote the masses then try and say the aethiests have an incomplete canon of knowledge (which they do) and that is equal to the religious canon of knowledge, depite the fact thats based on a book full of fairytales.
6: Accuse the other side of being immature, re-quote belief in god and benefit of "extra deimension" to show that your point is the correct one
7: See step 1
I have told you numerous times I would believe in god if there was evidence of his existence. You on the other hand reject all the evidence that contradicts the bible, adn then spout that I have "made up my mind". Im nto shouting come on then, im saying you are guioly of the charges you level at others, and reject reasoned argument becuase you haev made up your mind. Ive said it before but you just ignore it. I ask you questions, you ignore them.
Think critically. Weigh up evidence, Provable , verifiable, testable evidence. Thats all you need to do. There is lots in science, none in religion/thiesm, and mass belief before you say it again isn't proof.
"Until or unless both of us have complete knowledge of every fact past, present or future, then neither of us will be able to prove or disprove the existence of God" - now tell me, if you need a full body of all available evidence, why do you believe in god? You should be sitting on the fence! But you aint........
Belief transcends facts. I see your king, and I show my ace. You can't argue with that. I am as right for me as you are for you. And stop lecturing me. You have no innate superiority over me. You cut me, I bleed, and vice versa. And I STILL think you are banging on a bit!
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 19:30
I like that you retain that 1% open to question yourself. I would say what has been on this thread so far has been mainly about the Christian Church and personal beliefs in it and not about belief or non belief in the concept of god.
Many disciplines and religions certainly give many intelligent and interesting answers some for and some against but neither side I find can prove to me beyond doubt about the question of god.
Of course religion is a human construct but that does not mean that it dates from the time when humans led primitive lives. I would point out that although their lives were primitive it does not mean that their thinking was primitive. This premise is not based on supposition but on recorded knowledge of the times in which they lived. The need of humanity to try and control nature has been present from the start and perhaps that does explain the need for humanity to believe in something or someone more powerful than nature or themselves.
We have no more control of the world we live in today than early man had, so this is not a stage in life but an integral past of what humanity has been and remains. .You cannot dismiss our relationship with the world around us as being “That is all it is” I think we also need to retain an open mind to the reality that humans may have an inbuilt need to believe in god and there is evidence that this need has been world wide and a continuance of need through many millions of years. To dismiss these facts is a denial of reason and perhaps even a denial of our humanity.
An interesting point. However I woulddnt say mankind has an inbuilt need to believe in god. I certainly dont. I was brought up going to an RC school and it was apparent from the age of 7 or 8 that nobody in the school bar one or two people believed in god, and thats with us reading the bible 3 times a week. Access to information showed the bible to be what it was, an old book desperately trying to explain the world. Now im not saying that people thought simple, but they tried to make a stab at understanding the world with the information they had, which compared to modern science was next to none.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 19:35
Belief transcends facts. I see your king, and I show my ace. You can't argue with that. I am as right for me as you are for you. And stop lecturing me. You have no innate superiority over me. You cut me, I bleed, and vice versa. And I STILL think you are banging on a bit!
Spoken like a true disciple! Belief doesn't transcend facts. Until something as basic as that is in your head then your stuck in the stone ages. This isnt 1984, 2+2 doesn't equal 5, even if you believe it does with all your heart. Thats a fact, not a belief.
And I like how you AGAIN ignored my last point. If thats how religion makes its case, no wonder its dying a slow miserable death. I just wonder how many suicide bombers in the prime of their lives in palestine or childrens life's ruined by sexual abuse it will claim before it eventually dies.
Not religion. Theism. You don't listen.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 19:47
Not religion. Theism. You don't listen.
I do listen, hence the reason I have reason to reason with. Exchange the world religion for theism. or loch ness monster for all I care, the sentiments are the same. Unsubstantianted, ignorant nonsense. And until it has some supporting evidence then it will remain that way. Every generation has less than the last. Religion is already seen as similar to UFO's by most. except UFO's are slightly more probable due to the sheer numbers of stars in the cosmos.
And again, you duck my question........seeing a pattern here
orkneycadian
09-Mar-11, 19:50
I think after all this, I am still more inclined to believe what was said in the link in this post (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?136211-who-is-god&p=821224#post821224)
Big parish kirk with just 4 + a minister in it, reading from the "new revised version of the new revised version of the book of common prayer, or meditation, its the same thing really...." About the same level of attendance at kirks round these parts these days....
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 19:55
I know! its ludicrous. Wasnt in vain though, one orger did pm me asking me for recomendations of books. He/She was brought up a catholic but was a bit wavery until this thread.
You're right. There is a pattern. I say neither of us (or indeed anyone) has yet got the body of evidence to prove existence or non existence of God. You gloss over that, and demand answers. I don't demand anything. I can't answer questions I don't have the full factual armoury to answer. Neither can you. Sure, we can both make a fist of it, but won't we look daft when (as prophesised by Sir Terry Pratchett) the world turns out to have existed on the back of a giant turtle after all. Again, I wish you whatever joy your own certainty brings. I wish you no harm. But a bit of humility wouldn't go amiss!
An interesting point. However I woulddnt say mankind has an inbuilt need to believe in god. I certainly dont. I was brought up going to an RC school and it was apparent from the age of 7 or 8 that nobody in the school bar one or two people believed in god, and thats with us reading the bible 3 times a week. Access to information showed the bible to be what it was, an old book desperately trying to explain the world. Now im not saying that people thought simple, but they tried to make a stab at understanding the world with the information they had, which compared to modern science was next to none.
I did not say an inbuilt need to believe in any book or teachings that are based on religion but a need to believe in something or someone more powerful than themselves and nature. The bible I would say is a very different discussion and only clouds the issue to bring it into a discussion of who is god but perhaps due to early conditioning does the Bible in itself represent god to you and therefore in rejecting the bible you reject the concept of god.
“A stab at understanding” not a good description of what would be required to lay the foundation of medicine, science and the arts, and also a belief system. This belief system was worldwide, not a passing idea or opinion but one which endured and evolved over many millions of years.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 20:20
You're right. There is a pattern. I say neither of us (or indeed anyone) has yet got the body of evidence to prove existence or non existence of God. You gloss over that, and demand answers. I don't demand anything. I can't answer questions I don't have the full factual armoury to answer. Neither can you. Sure, we can both make a fist of it, but won't we look daft when (as prophesised by Sir Terry Pratchett) the world turns out to have existed on the back of a giant turtle after all. Again, I wish you whatever joy your own certainty brings. I wish you no harm. But a bit of humility wouldn't go amiss!
Again you mutter the SAME thing.
If I say a flying spaghetti monster exists and created the world and it lives over in the sombrero galaxy, about 500 million light years away that doesnt make it so, clearly. Now science will likely never prove that the spaghetti monster doesnt exist because its tiny and the sombrero galaxy is 500 million light years away, but thats no reason to believe it does exist!
Now I say it doesnt exist. Do you believe it exists also? I hold there is a tiny chance it may exist, and may have created the universe, but there is no evidence to say that is so, just my word and the book I wrote on the subject.
And again, if you state you wont make up your mind until you have all available knowledge, then profess that god exists, you are ignoring your own advice and making yourself look like a fool. You should be sitting on the fence if you go by your own logic, yet you clearly are not. Can you explain this contradiction?
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 20:34
I did not say an inbuilt need to believe in any book or teachings that are based on religion but a need to believe in something or someone more powerful than themselves and nature. The bible I would say is a very different discussion and only clouds the issue to bring it into a discussion of who is god but perhaps due to early conditioning does the Bible in itself represent god to you and therefore in rejecting the bible you reject the concept of god.
“A stab at understanding” not a good description of what would be required to lay the foundation of medicine, science and the arts, and also a belief system. This belief system was worldwide, not a passing idea or opinion but one which endured and evolved over many millions of years.
No I disagree. I think a lack of information, or probably more likely in this day and age, a lack of understanding of that information, combined with indoctrination of small children that unquestioned belief is a virtue, are what is behind religion in the past 100 years.
I disagree again that religion was the foundation of of any of those things. Medicine has been practiced for eons using plants and animals. There was alot of praying no doubt that passed as medicine, but civilisations like the the Inca's leanred that coco leaf was a decent anathestic and also a bit of a narcotic when chewed. That had nothing to do with religion and reliiogn didnt point them in that route, although I appreciate what your saying about religious medicine being prominent even up until the last century.
Plus a religous ideas couldnt evolve over millions of years. modern humans only got about of africa about 150 000 years ago
A muttering fool, to add to my decorations handed out by Master of the Universe, the Omniscient Weezer. You are incorrigible, you old goat! Suffering from Dawkins Disease - the incapability of allowing others their opinions without wanting to dash the cup of joy from their lips. By the bye, I don't "profess" that God exists. I believe. Others are free to believe what they want to in my rather wider-bourned world.
And YOU mutter the same thing, too. I am happy with my mutterings. We really ought to leave it at that, but being a gentleman, I'll let you have the last word - what will you go for. Unreasonable? Accepted! Fence-sitter? Yes, ought to be, but somehow, beyond reason, God appeals to my very core. Does that make me a 110 year/6 year old naif?
Whatever. You know best!
You misunderstand the point I make about the hunter/gatherers and their need for a belief system, that was independent of the other developments they made, although they were all interdependent to some extent. Where humans settled throughout the continents they created objects of art which strangely enough are similar in design and in the concept of god being a woman. The symbols of this belief system have evolved and evidenced in many places though the centuries including Scotland and also incorporated into Christian symbolism. The form of the concept of god has evolved and changed to suit the time and place perhaps but the instinct to believe has remained constant.
When you speak of lack of knowledge or the understanding of that knowledge as opposed to indoctrination with the passing on of knowledge of religion…. I am not sure what you would propose to change with this? I would presume that your belief in there being no god is sufficiently strong to teach your children the truth as you see it. Would you also advocate that all children be taught that there is no god, but there again to are still teaching them something about god. To believe or not to believe he remains a factor of our lives.
Although primitive man had the same brain capacity as modern man he didnt have the same knowledge about his environment. It would make sense if the original God figure was a woman because childbirth would have been a mystery to them. Womens capacity to have children must have been special and goodness knows how they thought it happened. Similarily with the underworld where superstition roamed free. Cave paintings may have been doorways into that mystery world and little to do with art as we know it. Dreams must have been scary and no doubt there was plenty hallucigenic materials on the go. All that rolled into a newly emerging species and goodness knows what kind of reality these early humans believed in.
One things for sure. Their ancestors are alive and well and haunting the org. :eek:
TBH, I haven't bothered myself to read all the posts on this thread; but I'd love to say (awaiting the massive back-lash: which I won't be responding to BTW !!)
Christ is My Redeemer and I am happy to be comforted by Him in all that I do and all that I am......
I myself do not believe in a god. But what makes you say him.
Stating beliefs as facts. Science is quite good at that.
eg.. dark matter
Although primitive man had the same brain capacity as modern man he didnt have the same knowledge about his environment. It would make sense if the original God figure was a woman because childbirth would have been a mystery to them. Womens capacity to have children must have been special and goodness knows how they thought it happened. Similarily with the underworld where superstition roamed free. Cave paintings may have been doorways into that mystery world and little to do with art as we know it. Dreams must have been scary and no doubt there was plenty hallucigenic materials on the go. All that rolled into a newly emerging species and goodness knows what kind of reality these early humans believed in.
One things for sure. Their ancestors are alive and well and haunting the org. :eek:
Early man would be unlikely to have a knowledge of his wider environment but a very good knowledge of his immediate environment if he wished to survive. I doubt that childbirth was that big a mystery, they were able to observe the animals have their young and how is was achieved has never been that big a mystery to any man. Lol . I don’t know what you refer to about the underworld where superstition roamed free, not something I have ever heard or read anything about ? The early carving did come before the cave paintings which as you suggest may have a mystic purpose although that takes nothing away from their art value. The dreams and hallucigenic materials I know nothing indeed never heard them referred to before. Much is known about how humans slowly evolved and much has still to be learned and what their reality was I am sure would vary with the individual anyway but they have left range of symbols carved on rock faces, stones, and numerous artifice which does give us a fair amount of information. .
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 23:02
A muttering fool, to add to my decorations handed out by Master of the Universe, the Omniscient Weezer. You are incorrigible, you old goat! Suffering from Dawkins Disease - the incapability of allowing others their opinions without wanting to dash the cup of joy from their lips. By the bye, I don't "profess" that God exists. I believe. Others are free to believe what they want to in my rather wider-bourned world.
And YOU mutter the same thing, too. I am happy with my mutterings. We really ought to leave it at that, but being a gentleman, I'll let you have the last word - what will you go for. Unreasonable? Accepted! Fence-sitter? Yes, ought to be, but somehow, beyond reason, God appeals to my very core. Does that make me a 110 year/6 year old naif?
Whatever. You know best!
I mutter the same things because you constantly contradict yourself!
"I don't demand anything. I can't answer questions I don't have the full factual armoury to answer." - I have asked NUMEROUS TIMES why you state neither you nor I have a full body of knowledge from which to make an opinion about the existence of god, then you spout you believe god is real.....I mean come on, I'm asking YOU! Why do you believe in god when apparently you havent got enough evidence too? Its absurd.
Ill restate it another way seeing as you dont get it.....there isnt enough evidence to believe one way or another, yet......you believe in god! So im asking you why!
You then state.....ludicrously...."God appeals to my core". So, after saying that I dont listen to other peoples arguments (despite having told you I would believe in god if there was evidence of his existence) it appears you would believe in god because the idea of it appeals to you and it doesnt matter if there is any evidence of his existence. Which takes me back to my original point about 40 posts ago, which was.....
God, and religion, is a delusion, immune from reason, with no evidence at all to back it up. The idea that you form opinions based on nothing at all is utterly nuts given the fact you need information and evidence to form valid opinions. Anything less and you are flying by the seat of your pants.
Couple of good books on the subject is Ideas a History from Fire to Freud by Peter Watson and Out of Eden by Stephen Oppenheimer.
When you consider primitive man and his mind you have to remember he was still carrying trace thoughts from his time in the trees. In fact we still are. If you want to track down the source of God it begins a long long time before man even had a sense of self.
PS. If you want to quote someones post click reply with quote at the bottom right hand corner of the post you want to quote.
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 23:06
Stating beliefs as facts. Science is quite good at that.
eg.. dark matter
lol!
More madness. Quick question......Science "believes" in dark matter, is that because there is a book that says it exists written by people 2000 years ago, or because there are literally libraries full of observational data showing there is more mass than we can see in the universe?
Ill say in advance, if the second point is the reason then it goes from a belief to an observed phenomona. You see the difference no?
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 23:08
Couple of good books on the subject is Ideas a History from Fire to Freud by Peter Watson and Out of Eden by Stephen Oppenheimer.
When you consider primitive man and his mind you have to remember he was still carrying trace thoughts from his time in the trees. In fact we still are. If you want to track down the source of God it begins a long long time before man even had a sense of self.
PS. If you want to quote someones post click reply with quote at the bottom right hand corner of the post you want to quote.
Bang on gleeber. Its a product of our evolution, a survival mechanism if you will. Thats all belief in a deity is
weezer 316
09-Mar-11, 23:11
I myself do not believe in a god. But what makes you say him.
Havent you read the bible? Its obviously a him as woman are gang raped by mobs to in exchange for sparing a male guest at inn. Unless god is female and a lesbian with some strange fetishes that is
Why on earth. Would i want to read something, that i have no interest in. But you are probably right. A woman, would have more compassion.
There probably was a time when childbirth was a mystery. We take things for granted these days. 50 years ago I would have laughed at the idea of the internet. All the early sculpted figures found at various sites around the world were of women. There was various symbols associated with breast feeding and menstruation found in the same sites. Some of these figures date back over 30,000 years ago. Some early carvings were between 100,000 and 300,000 years old. Gods been around for a long time. Our own early ancestors date back over 4 million years.
Couple of good books on the subject is Ideas a History from Fire to Freud by Peter Watson and Out of Eden by Stephen Oppenheimer.
When you consider primitive man and his mind you have to remember he was still carrying trace thoughts from his time in the trees. In fact we still are. If you want to track down the source of God it begins a long long time before man even had a sense of self.
PS. If you want to quote someones post click reply with quote at the bottom right hand corner of the post you want to quote.
Many thinks for the names of the books, I expect to be able to read again soon and will put them at the top of my list. I have heard of the inherited memory which I have wondered just how much of an influence it continues to have.
pa thanks found that one makes it much easier. lol
There probably was a time when childbirth was a mystery. We take things for granted these days. 50 years ago I would have laughed at the idea of the internet. All the early sculpted figures found at various sites around the world were of women. There was various symbols associated with breast feeding and menstruation found in the same sites. Some of these figures date back over 30,000 years ago. Some early carvings were between 100,000 and 300,000 years old. Gods been around for a long time. Our own early ancestors date back over 4 million years.
These little figures are normally referred to as the Mother goddess figures and although you would expect the meanings of the symbols on them to refer to childbirth etc they actually refer more to the seasons of growth in the fields. They are also heavy on references to the cycle of life and death but when you consider them in conjunction with the obvious knowledge they had about astronomy that in not so surprising.
I still remember the excitement of when we got our first phone, a big black one and only father was allowed to answer it. Now we think nothing of our little mobile. lol
There probably was a time when childbirth was a mystery
Thank goodness they understood how to bring up the bairns or else I wouldnt be typing this!
Bang on gleeber. Its a product of our evolution, a survival mechanism if you will. Thats all belief in a deity is
That is a good observation weezer and could well be true. If it is then that certainly makes it a very important part of us all and the question we have to ask now is WHY! we need it as a suvival mechanism.
Thank goodness they understood how to bring up the bairns or else I wouldnt be typing this!
:lol::lol::lol:
secrets in symmetry
10-Mar-11, 01:03
Infact, onecalled k or meerkat of symmetry or meerkat or even the bloody pope, answer me this, considering a general theme of your posts is that "god" is beyond science......
if science proved tommorow that Jesus was born without a father. I mean, solid, proper evidence such as discovering his remains or something and DNA testing them, would you dismiss it or trumpet it to the heavens??
An honest answer, and symettry Ill tell you now, if you are gonna start using those silly things called facts in your replies I will need to report you to the moderator!My, oh my, you have been busy today. You're actually not bad when it comes to arguing with those who would shoot you down. Don't stop, because I am impressed with your determination and your heart, which appear to be made of stone extracted from the best Caithness quarries.
Having damned you with faint praise, I must say that I don't know why you include me in the same breath as the deluded one. I have encountered some truly deluded ones in my life, but time and time again, this is the one perched atop the tree of delusion.
Getting back to God, I want to know how He did it. I want to create my own Universe. I don't expect much help from the agnostics because they don't know anything about anything, and a humanist is just a slightly embarrassed agnostic, but surely one of you all knowing atheists can tell me how God did it. Then I can do a little experiment like you would do. I have an inflaton but I don't know how to do a slow roll with it.
Well I can say that those with the 'Ashen Cross' on their foreheads today seemed to in another World.
They appeared to be floating...Mind you, not all were in Ash. Some were in lipstick and one seemed like a ball point pen marking.
It always reminds me of Charles Manson, but of course he didn't have a Cross.........
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 09:04
My, oh my, you have been busy today. You're actually not bad when it comes to arguing with those who would shoot you down. Don't stop, because I am impressed with your determination and your heart, which appear to be made of stone extracted from the best Caithness quarries.
Having damned you with faint praise, I must say that I don't know why you include me in the same breath as the deluded one. I have encountered some truly deluded ones in my life, but time and time again, this is the one perched atop the tree of delusion.
Getting back to God, I want to know how He did it. I want to create my own Universe. I don't expect much help from the agnostics because they don't know anything about anything, and a humanist is just a slightly embarrassed agnostic, but surely one of you all knowing atheists can tell me how God did it. Then I can do a little experiment like you would do. I have an inflaton but I don't know how to do a slow roll with it.
I include you with the other delusional posters on hre because you seem incapable of reading a point adn remembering it for for than a second.
We dont know what forces brought the universe into existance. Pre big bang physics is at the very cutting edge of science. What banged, why and what happened before it are mysteries, which scince is attempting to solve. Religion on the other hand just says god did it......which solves nothing
onecalledk
10-Mar-11, 09:55
I include you with the other delusional posters on hre because you seem incapable of reading a point adn remembering it for for than a second.
We dont know what forces brought the universe into existance. Pre big bang physics is at the very cutting edge of science. What banged, why and what happened before it are mysteries, which scince is attempting to solve. Religion on the other hand just says god did it......which solves nothing
You seem to have me in the fold of believing in religion and god, at no point did I say that I believed in either. God is a term that can be used and intrepreted in many ways. I dont believe in a god as in the bible version of a god but we are all connected to source. Source is where we came from and source is where our spirit returns to once our physical bodies die.
That sentence contains no science so you will probably again go on the attack. The difference between us is that I dont stoop to name calling. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I can hold my views and allow others the space to talk about theirs whilst not necessarily agreeing with all that they say. I dont seek to change the world with words as you do. Words can be manipulated to say whatever they need to appear to say......
The human race is full of people who spout words but dont necessarily follow with actions. Tolerance and understanding of where someone is coming from is something that has passed you by. Are you this defensive and arrogant in real life? ie when you step from behind a computer screen?
I have had many a debate with many many people over the years as my way of thinking is not the general masses way of thinking but never have I come across someone who is so downright rude, offensive and angry .....
K
lol!
More madness. Quick question......Science "believes" in dark matter, is that because there is a book that says it exists written by people 2000 years ago, or because there are literally libraries full of observational data showing there is more mass than we can see in the universe?
Ill say in advance, if the second point is the reason then it goes from a belief to an observed phenomona. You see the difference no?
You can't see it, you can't test for it, you've never detected it. But it is there because you can see the effect it has on other things. Hmm interesting.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 10:24
But I don't want to find a way to God. I'm convinced he doesn't exist.
My point is that rather than discuss, you chose to patronise by
assuming it was sheer ignorance and the fact that poor people like me are simply ignorant of an irrefutable truth. How you would you react to me waving an Athiest book title under your nose and saying "There, there, dear. Read this, it will make you all better again."?
You'd have a right pop at me wouldn't you?
That's exactly the same 'Christian' evangelicalism that sent missionaries forth to 'educate' the 'poor savages'.
So you think I'm just 'spouting off'? You appear to be displaying one of the most ignoble atributes of some followers of a given religion. The ability to turn on, very quickly, anyone who dares question your belief.
No, I'm not questioning what you do or don't believe, that's your choice. If you feel patronised that's your feeling and your issue not created by me. I'm happy to discuss my beliefs but insults are flying around on here and that's why I became defensive. I'm not a Christian and I am not out to convert anyone just share my experiences, but not on this thread anymore.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 10:28
You seem to have me in the fold of believing in religion and god, at no point did I say that I believed in either. God is a term that can be used and intrepreted in many ways. I dont believe in a god as in the bible version of a god but we are all connected to source. Source is where we came from and source is where our spirit returns to once our physical bodies die.
That sentence contains no science so you will probably again go on the attack. The difference between us is that I dont stoop to name calling. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I can hold my views and allow others the space to talk about theirs whilst not necessarily agreeing with all that they say. I dont seek to change the world with words as you do. Words can be manipulated to say whatever they need to appear to say......
The human race is full of people who spout words but dont necessarily follow with actions. Tolerance and understanding of where someone is coming from is something that has passed you by. Are you this defensive and arrogant in real life? ie when you step from behind a computer screen?
I have had many a debate with many many people over the years as my way of thinking is not the general masses way of thinking but never have I come across someone who is so downright rude, offensive and angry .....
K Well said!!! There are too many bullies on here and I'm not posting on this thread. Anyone who wants to discuss their/ my spiritual experiences are welcome to PM me.
I think that you are possibly frightened that I believe that there is a God and my belief is not based on organised religion but actual experience. Maybe stop insulting me and meditate, answer your doubts by truly asking God to come in to your life.
I didn't insult you. I challenged your belief.
Now to say I am frightened of something because you believe in God, that's insulting but I can take it.
My, oh my, you have been busy today. You're actually not bad when it comes to arguing with those who would shoot you down. Don't stop, because I am impressed with your determination and your heart, which appear to be made of stone extracted from the best Caithness quarries.
Having damned you with faint praise, I must say that I don't know why you include me in the same breath as the deluded one. I have encountered some truly deluded ones in my life, but time and time again, this is the one perched atop the tree of delusion.
Getting back to God, I want to know how He did it. I want to create my own Universe. I don't expect much help from the agnostics because they don't know anything about anything, and a humanist is just a slightly embarrassed agnostic, but surely one of you all knowing atheists can tell me how God did it. Then I can do a little experiment like you would do. I have an inflaton but I don't know how to do a slow roll with it.
Thank god Tesco had an inflaton in stock; was that by secial order?
Inflaton - n. E21: A bag of wind which flies round the room, banging against objects, and uttering banshee noises, until the wind therein is expended, after which it lies, shrivelled and deflated, and of as much use as a chocolate fireguard.......
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 11:15
I didn't insult you. I challenged your belief.
Now to say I am frightened of something because you believe in God, that's insulting but I can take it.
To suggest I am deluded is an insult not a 'challenge' and I questioned if you are frightened of something because your postings are negative towards faith and not open minded. Fear closes people dowm and makes them put down other people. Clearly that is not the case with you as you have said. I am no longer posting on such a mainly negative thread as it's like banging my head on a brick wall filled with alot of theories and loud voices who have no interest in spiritual faith.
It's like this Greenland.
Either your deluded or I'm deluded. No insult. Fact.
If any one has time to read these people's testimonies,go to www.applesofgold.co.uk it will make you think! Mrs T.
To suggest I am deluded is an insult not a 'challenge' and I questioned if you are frightened of something because your postings are negative towards faith and not open minded. Fear closes people dowm and makes them put down other people. Clearly that is not the case with you as you have said. I am no longer posting on such a mainly negative thread as it's like banging my head on a brick wall filled with alot of theories and loud voices who have no interest in spiritual faith.
So because. I like many others do not believe in a god/bible etc. We are not open minded and afraid. Get a grip.:roll: As for spitting your dummy out, and not posting, because not everyone agrees with you, well. That is your prerogative. I will now go. ( stomps off huffing and puffing ) [lol]
If any one has time to read these people's testimonies,go to www.applesofgold.co.uk it will make you think! Mrs T.
I dont think anyone could say that the power of God doesnt work in peoples lives. This is about who is God. I say he exists only in the confines of individuals skulls and any coming together of love and compassion or forgiveness or whatever attributes Christians would claim as their own is human and any human can access those attributes made by and claimed by christians as coming from a living Christ.
I dont mean to be insulting or rude or even bullying but I have a right to reply. We all have testemonies and there was a time I had a Christian one. I notice at least one of the names in the testemony link was a minister in Wick and spoke out against homosexual activity in the church causing shame and pain to a perfectly legal minority of the population. Fine bloke and all that but restricted by the prejudices of the biblical taliban.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 12:12
It's like this Greenland.
Either your deluded or I'm deluded. No insult. Fact.
Well one day we will all find out when we die, and I'm pretty sure based on my experiences that I've had in this life that God will be there.:)
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 12:17
So because. I like many others do not believe in a god/bible etc. We are not open minded and afraid. Get a grip.:roll: As for spitting your dummy out, and not posting, because not everyone agrees with you, well. That is your prerogative. I will now go. ( stomps off huffing and puffing ) [lol]
It's your choice, you can lead a horse to water... and I don't huff or puff I smile.
Well one day we will all find out when we die, and I'm pretty sure based on my experiences that I've had in this life that God will be there.:)
Is there just a teeny weeny chance you may be deluded? :confused
To suggest I am deluded is an insult not a 'challenge'
Come on Greenland, did you forget your post on the other thread.......
........ I also speak with angels and to God. Am I deluded?
Now, you find it reasonable to ask if you are deluded one moment, then take it as an insult the next?
A bit hypocritical maybe?
Does my bum look big and all that......
It's your choice, you can lead a horse to water... and I don't huff or puff I smile.
I was, if you took the time to digest peoples responses. Saying i would stomp off huffing and puffing. :roll:
Also i do not need to be led by any one, and would prefer it if you did not compare me with a horse.:eek:
Thank you.:)
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 12:58
Come on Greenland, did you forget your post on the other thread.......
Now, you find it reasonable to ask if you are deluded one moment, then take it as an insult the next?
A bit hypocritical maybe?
Does my bum look big and all that......
You cut and pasted part of a paragraph where I explained that because I have faith I am not deluded. Yes it is an insult and stop insulting me yet again by calling me a hypocrite. I am not.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 13:01
I was, if you took the time to digest peoples responses. Saying i would stomp off huffing and puffing. :roll:
Also i do not need to be led by any one, and would prefer it if you did not compare me with a horse.:eek:
Thank you.:)
I am glad you have stomped off but clearly not that far. Yes you are right, horses are beautiful creatures.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 13:02
No. Goodbye.
Is there just a teeny weeny chance you may be deluded? :confused
Yes horses are beautiful animals,and very intelligent too,, but do they believe in god ?. or is it only mankind that has this ability, genuine question please anyone,
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. – Seneca the Younger.
Inflaton - n. E21: A bag of wind which flies round the room, banging against objects, and uttering banshee noises, until the wind therein is expended, after which it lies, shrivelled and deflated, and of as much use as a chocolate fireguard.......
Tut Tut - what frivolity - another thing you got wrong.
EVERYONE knows: The inflaton is the generic name of the unidentified scalar field (and its associated particle) that may be responsible for an episode of inflation in the very early universe.. sigh
[QUOTE=Greenland;829178]I am glad you have stomped off but clearly not that far. Yes you are right, horses are beautiful creatures.[/
I agree with you entirely horses are beautiful creatures. But myself i prefer a dog. ( Stomps off again even further to please Greenland )[lol][lol][lol]
Bekisman - I bow at the source of the fountain of your knowledge (supplied by L.G. Al Mighty, purveyors of fresh water to the human race since BBB - Before Big Bang). Getting things wrong is very liberating!
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 13:36
[QUOTE=Greenland;829178]I am glad you have stomped off but clearly not that far. Yes you are right, horses are beautiful creatures.[/
I agree with you entirely horses are beautiful creatures. But myself i prefer a dog. ( Stomps off again even further to please Greenland )
Wow we agree?:lol:
[QUOTE=shazzap;829185]
Wow we agree?:lol:
Yes we agree on this occasion, about animals being beautiful creatures.
But we will have to agree to disagree on everything to do with a god/gods, bible etc etc. I am an Atheist. Each to their own, as long as it isn't shoved down my throat. As i will not forced fed.
No. Goodbye.
Thought you had gone?
I know what the hesitation is; you could not resist the good-natured banter on here..
Bekisman - I bow at the source of the fountain of your knowledge (supplied by L.G. Al Mighty, purveyors of fresh water to the human race since BBB - Before Big Bang). Getting things wrong is very liberating!
Very kind of you...
You cut and pasted part of a paragraph where I explained that because I have faith I am not deluded. Yes it is an insult and stop insulting me yet again by calling me a hypocrite. I am not.
No, I cut and pasted from your post where you asked the question if you were deluded.
You then went on to call the suggestion that you were deluded an insult.
That's hypocrisy.
There's no need to take that as an insult, it's just an observation.
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 13:58
Well one day we will all find out when we die, and I'm pretty sure based on my experiences that I've had in this life that God will be there.:)
What experiences would they be? And therein lays they problem with your argument...again...which you ignore...or maybe..... you cant even see it can you??
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 14:15
Infact greenland you are a monumental hypicrite as I ave already pointed out. Post 270 of this thread you said the following:
"Love and God are nonsense? You have very fixed views for someone with an open mind. I think you like to try and 'win' arguments and you do not actually appear to be interested in learning anything, therefore I have nothing to teach you or discuss with you. Your negative stance does you no favours, wins you no friends and closes your heart as well as your mind. Find your own 'evidence' try and ask, with faith, God to talk to you, try a Neale Walsch book such as conversations with God."
I picked this up on my reply, which you ignored, so I will state it again. You are the one with a closed mind as when asked if there is any chance you could be delusional about the existance of god you answer a flat "No, Goodbye."
Hypocrisy of the highest order, like all people who belive in religion.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 14:16
What experiences would they be? And therein lays they problem with your argument...again...which you ignore...or maybe..... you cant even see it can you??
I am not arguing and I have no wish to post my personal experiences of God on here. Whatever I say you will again critise me so there's no point in sharing anything with you. And that's not avoiding a question it's a fact that I would feel very uncomfortable now after reading some spiteful opinions. Goodbye.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 14:19
Infact greenland you are a monumental hypicrite as I ave already pointed out. Post 270 of this thread you said the following:
"Love and God are nonsense? You have very fixed views for someone with an open mind. I think you like to try and 'win' arguments and you do not actually appear to be interested in learning anything, therefore I have nothing to teach you or discuss with you. Your negative stance does you no favours, wins you no friends and closes your heart as well as your mind. Find your own 'evidence' try and ask, with faith, God to talk to you, try a Neale Walsch book such as conversations with God."
I picked this up on my reply, which you ignored, so I will state it again. You are the one with a closed mind as when asked if there is any chance you could be delusional about the existance of god you answer a flat "No, Goodbye."
Hypocrisy of the highest order, like all people who belive in religion.
Your insults are predictable and I do not follow a certain religion and I know God exists which does not make me close minded.
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 14:22
You seem to have me in the fold of believing in religion and god, at no point did I say that I believed in either. God is a term that can be used and intrepreted in many ways. I dont believe in a god as in the bible version of a god but we are all connected to source. Source is where we came from and source is where our spirit returns to once our physical bodies die.
That sentence contains no science so you will probably again go on the attack. The difference between us is that I dont stoop to name calling. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I can hold my views and allow others the space to talk about theirs whilst not necessarily agreeing with all that they say. I dont seek to change the world with words as you do. Words can be manipulated to say whatever they need to appear to say......
The human race is full of people who spout words but dont necessarily follow with actions. Tolerance and understanding of where someone is coming from is something that has passed you by. Are you this defensive and arrogant in real life? ie when you step from behind a computer screen?
I have had many a debate with many many people over the years as my way of thinking is not the general masses way of thinking but never have I come across someone who is so downright rude, offensive and angry .....
K
Aplogies if I come accross as rude or offensive, it certainly wasnt my aim. If I wished to be offensive I have a huge store of swear words I can draw on. So again, sorry.
Secondly, I would defend to the death your right to disagree with me. However if I attack your opinion thats different from attacking your right to one.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 14:23
No, I cut and pasted from your post where you asked the question if you were deluded.
You then went on to call the suggestion that you were deluded an insult.
That's hypocrisy.
There's no need to take that as an insult, it's just an observation.
No, I was posing a question which I went on to answer do not twist my words and do not insult me. You are not going to get any more replies from me as I can't see a point in replying to your negativity. Talk to weezer as you both like to critise people.
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 14:25
I am not arguing and I have no wish to post my personal experiences of God on here. Whatever I say you will again critise me so there's no point in sharing anything with you. And that's not avoiding a question it's a fact that I would feel very uncomfortable now after reading some spiteful opinions. Goodbye.
Spiteful opinions? No spite to be had. Belief in god is without evidence. I ask you to supply your experiences and you complain that I may critiscise them. Give it 20+ posts, you will be posting somethign similar hoping no one remembers your previous points.
I say again, belief in god is a delusion. If I say napolean talked to me I would be called mad. If i say god does, im just religous. And on that hypocrisy is religion built
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 14:37
You can't see it, you can't test for it, you've never detected it. But it is there because you can see the effect it has on other things. Hmm interesting.
Well nice to see in your short abscence you didnt waste your time with abook on astronomy.....
We cant see it. We cant see gravity either yet its a force we can describe and even manipulate for our own ends. Furthermore, You can test for it. Its called improving radio/optical and xray telescope abilities. If we can elimate the possibility that there are huge tracts of stars we cannot seem then dark matter is proven. By the same token, if you can prove there are far more stars then we can say dark matter is false and that stars account for the mass we previously couldnt see.
Now what effect can you see god having in a similar way to dark matter/misssing mass?
To say I am waiting with baited breath for your answer would be an understatement.......
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 14:39
Spiteful opinions? No spite to be had. Belief in god is without evidence. I ask you to supply your experiences and you complain that I may critiscise them. Give it 20+ posts, you will be posting somethign similar hoping no one remembers your previous points.
I say again, belief in god is a delusion. If I say napolean talked to me I would be called mad. If i say god does, im just religous. And on that hypocrisy is religion built
Don't assume what I will do thanks, I have never done that as I don't assume people are stupid and have forgotten. You do not know that belief in God is a delusion. My opinion is that it isn't. No, I will not detail my experience after the replies I have been given I do not wish to debate them in this thread.
No, I was posing a question which I went on to answer do not twist my words and do not insult me. You are not going to get any more replies from me as I can't see a point in replying to your negativity. Talk to weezer as you both like to critise people.
Ah, so you answer your own questions but don't want anyone else to have the chance to answer.
I now think that yes, you are deluded, and yes, you are a hypocrite.
Well nice to see in your short abscence you didnt waste your time with abook on astronomy.....
We cant see it. We cant see gravity either yet its a force we can describe and even manipulate for our own ends. Furthermore, You can test for it. Its called improving radio/optical and xray telescope abilities. If we can elimate the possibility that there are huge tracts of stars we cannot seem then dark matter is proven. By the same token, if you can prove there are far more stars then we can say dark matter is false and that stars account for the mass we previously couldnt see.
Now what effect can you see god having in a similar way to dark matter/misssing mass?
To say I am waiting with baited breath for your answer would be an understatement.......
I'm glad I provoke such anticipation. ;)
Is dark matter not then a gap theory as you claim God is? Yet surely science would never state a theory, that is merely produced to fill gap, as fact?
To answer your question.....an effect that would suggest a cause that could be explained by the design of a Creator?
The water cycle, the oxygen cycle, the nitrogen cycle. I think that's probably enough to be getting on with.
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 14:55
Don't assume what I will do thanks, I have never done that as I don't assume people are stupid and have forgotten. You do not know that belief in God is a delusion. My opinion is that it isn't. No, I will not detail my experience after the replies I have been given I do not wish to debate them in this thread.
Ill tell you what I do know. There is no scientific evidence for god. Thats a fact.
Why wont you discuss your experiences that led you to belive in god? In lieu of any corroborative evidence of his existance, I would have thought you were keen to push "evidence" of his existance. Strange. I would take a bet though that said outloud, your "experiences" would sound silly even to you, and thats why you wont share them.
I must apologise for my lack of seriousness on here, but over 400 posts?
We , homo sapiens, that is, are merely specks of dust on this place we call earth.
There are Orgers on this tread, that truly believe we have been here just 10,000 years.. whereas science suggests c2.5 million years ago. The age of the earth, in general consensus, is 4.54 billion years old..
That is 'we' are not even a gleam in the eye in overall time.
Yet we think, with our pathetic little brains and undoubtedly egotistical, pompous, intellect,that we know that a supreme being exists?.
That is downright arrogance, we are still savages, hiding in the back of the cave. Right now, in the Christian calendar it is 2011; torture, killings, rape - call that civilisation?
No my friends.. we have a long, way to go yet before we even begin to understand why we are here and what for, what it's all about..
We may dream, we may have faith, but that is all it is, it is nonsensical to say that we know there is a supreme being, call it god or whatever.
Bottom line:? we honestly just do not know.
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 15:20
I'm glad I provoke such anticipation. ;)
Is dark matter not then a gap theory as you claim God is? Yet surely science would never state a theory, that is merely produced to fill gap, as fact?
To answer your question.....an effect that would suggest a cause that could be explained by the design of a Creator?
The water cycle, the oxygen cycle, the nitrogen cycle. I think that's probably enough to be getting on with.
In the name of god is all i can say to that! The water cycle?? Climatic effects are expertly explaned by sceince. How is that evidence of a creator? What there says "this takes a god"??
And no, its not a gap theory, its a theory that explains what we can see and measure. Something else may me causeing it, such as missing mass. Im astonished you cant undertand that, truly. God is a creation that cant be measured or demonstrated. And no matter what complex natural phenomona you mention, science has almost certainly got it covered, where as god is an "im to lazy to figure it out, ill say god did it"......
Walter Ego
10-Mar-11, 15:55
No, I'm not questioning what you do or don't believe, that's your choice. If you feel patronised that's your feeling and your issue not created by me. I'm happy to discuss my beliefs but insults are flying around on here and that's why I became defensive. I'm not a Christian and I am not out to convert anyone just share my experiences, but not on this thread anymore.
Well said!!! There are too many bullies on here and I'm not posting on this thread. Anyone who wants to discuss their/ my spiritual experiences are welcome to PM me.
To suggest I am deluded is an insult not a 'challenge' and I questioned if you are frightened of something because your postings are negative towards faith and not open minded. Fear closes people dowm and makes them put down other people. Clearly that is not the case with you as you have said. I am no longer posting on such a mainly negative thread as it's like banging my head on a brick wall filled with alot of theories and loud voices who have no interest in spiritual faith.
You cut and pasted part of a paragraph where I explained that because I have faith I am not deluded. Yes it is an insult and stop insulting me yet again by calling me a hypocrite. I am not.
No. Goodbye.
I am not arguing and I have no wish to post my personal experiences of God on here. Whatever I say you will again critise me so there's no point in sharing anything with you. And that's not avoiding a question it's a fact that I would feel very uncomfortable now after reading some spiteful opinions. Goodbye.
Your insults are predictable and I do not follow a certain religion and I know God exists which does not make me close minded.
No, I was posing a question which I went on to answer do not twist my words and do not insult me. You are not going to get any more replies from me as I can't see a point in replying to your negativity. Talk to weezer as you both like to critise people.
Don't assume what I will do thanks, I have never done that as I don't assume people are stupid and have forgotten. You do not know that belief in God is a delusion. My opinion is that it isn't. No, I will not detail my experience after the replies I have been given I do not wish to debate them in this thread.
I only see one closed mind here.......
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 16:00
Again the personal attack, I am told I am deluded a hypocrite and silly by some people posting. I do not understand why you feel it's ok to write such awful things about me because I have faith and you do not? I am happy to share my experiences in a PM with anyone who wants to share theirs or discuss mine in a respectful manner. You have just made me defensive and I have no interest now in replying to such childish insults.
Again the personal attack, I am told I am deluded a hypocrite and silly by some people posting. I do not understand why you feel it's ok to write such awful things about me because I have faith and you do not?
You asked if you were deluded then, when you never got the answer you wanted you took it as an insult.
You make hypocritical posts, then take it as an insult when someone points out your hypocrisy.
I don't think either of these are "such awful things". You make a post, expect a reply. Don't take disagreements or others views as insults.
And your faith has nothing to do with either of these observations. Maybe if the "faith card" wasn't thrown around so much in search of respect or priveliges this thread wouldn't be nearly as long as it is.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 16:27
You asked if you were deluded then, when you never got the answer you wanted you took it as an insult.
You make hypocritical posts, then take it as an insult when someone points out your hypocrisy.
I don't think either of these are "such awful things". You make a post, expect a reply. Don't take disagreements or others views as insults.
And your faith has nothing to do with either of these observations. Maybe if the "faith card" wasn't thrown around so much in search of respect or priveliges this thread wouldn't be nearly as long as it is.
None of the above is true and it certainly is insulting to be called names. I shared my experience of God on here and it was the first time I had posted this week and I won't be posting again on a religious/ spiritual threads as I think there are lots of loud unhappy voices just waiting to pounce. Well put this in your war pipes and smoke it 'I AM HAPPY I HAVE FAITH!!!' Nah nah nah I can be childish too. Joyfully over and out of here xxx Thanks to all for PM messages, happy to have positive chats xxx
Don't worry, Greenland. Your faith is secure and unassailable. That's what worries these soi-disant authorities, commanding (as they attempt to do) the high ground of scientific and endorsable knowledge. They merely lack the dimension that many of us have elected to live in. We do not find it necessary to snap round the ankles of our betters with malicious and self-serving purpose: we do not find it necessary to be rude, hectoring martinets forcing a doctrine of "facts and nothing else" to anyone who dares contradict their arrogance and shuttered minds, We are bigger than that, Greenland. They may bad mouth us, but only because they do not understand the dimension they lack. In fact, we should feel sorry for THEIR delusions, and for their pavlovian necessity to shout down anything running counter to their monotone meanderings.
They seek answers from us - why? If they are secure in their knowledge that God can't be proved and thus cannot exist - why are they at such pains to shoot us down? What kind of trollish malice lurks behind their inhumane facsimile of reasoning? After all, they do exist, like you and me, as examples of human beings: that means they are less than perfect in most areas - yet they would have us believe they are somehow "superior" to us, and thus anything and everything we say is "deluded", "hypocritical", or "nonsense".
I've said before, they do protest too much. But, you must understand, this is the nature of a forum such as this. It is possible to launch an opinion on here which you wouldn't dare utter in a four ale bar for fear of having your lights punched out. So it shouldn't be taken personally. Ultimately, your faith is more precious by far than the obstacles they attempt to place in front of you.
Finally, although I am serious about the potential danger they offer to faiths less robust than ours, we know from history that the best way of dealing with bullies is to laugh at them.
Hitler, after all, only had one ball............
None of the above is true............
Hmm............
I am not the reay psychic but I have been able to connect with spirits since I was a child. I don't do this very much as it's not something I want to do very often as I don't know enough about what I'm doing. It's an ability I just have and it's a bit overwhelming really so I don't do it. I also speak with angels and to God. Am I deluded?
To suggest I am deluded is an insult.
QED.
But since evidence doesn't rate too highly with you, I don't expect you'll accept this proof.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 16:43
Hmm............
QED.
But since evidence doesn't rate too highly with you, I don't expect you'll accept this proof.
Why don't you quote what I carried on to say isstead of part of it? Why do you have a need to put me down? Yawn...
They seek answers from us - why? If they are secure in their knowledge that God can't be proved and thus cannot exist - why are they at such pains to shoot us down?
My problem with religious beliefs, and churches, is that they are treated with a level of respect quite unique for viewpoints.
People take offence when their religion is questioned and that is seen as acceptable, even normal. Why aren't political viewpoints given the same level of respect?
Whenever there's a "moral" debate on the news, cue the token religious figure giving guidance. Why the archbishop of canterbury is regarded as an important figure on such matters is ridiculous to me.
I think, until such time that these concessions are removed by society, and until we are all on a level playing field, the atheists and agnostics of the world have every right to feel contempt towards the religious.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 16:47
Thank you Meerkat you are far more eloquant than I and a refreshing voice of kindness. Hooray for you and I will not be conversing with the bullies again.
Why don't you quote what I carried on to say isstead of part of it? Why do you have a need to put me down? Yawn...
Okay, I'll quote the whole post.
But I fail to see any difference. You STILL asked if you were deluded, and you STILL took offence when somebody suggested you were.
Hypocrisy.
And I'm not trying to "put you down".
I am not the reay psychic but I have been able to connect with spirits since I was a child. I don't do this very much as it's not something I want to do very often as I don't know enough about what I'm doing. It's an ability I just have and it's a bit overwhelming really so I don't do it. I also speak with angels and to God. Am I deluded? Would you ask a minister who prays if they were? If someone has faith then that's a wonderful gift. I do not practice as a psychic and I do not ask for messages. I have advised/ supported people at times if I was able to and I have given free angelic healinga few times to calm people. I trained as a reiki healer but this was out of personal interest. I have been to psychic healers and know 3 accurate people in the uk who became friends. This was so I could discuss my experiences with other psychic people. I think anyone can open their minds/ hearts to spiritual/ religious energy/ experiences if they choose to and there are lots of ways and religious beliefs. I am very interested in buddism but I live my life as close to God as I can. I do not attend church but I pray and meditate every day. I have been through alot of difficult experiences and my faith has been there to help my keep walking on and trying my best every day. That's all we can do I think. I am writing a spiritual book to put in writing some of my experiences with angels but it's fiction as I think most people would not believe what I have to say and it's easier to write as fiction.
Greenland
10-Mar-11, 17:00
I was answering the deluded question before someone asked me as I knew they would. Is this really what you enjoy doing, being so negative to others? As you can see I put alot of personal info. on and would have carried on if this thread wasn't so critical of my experiences. Anyway I have learned my lesson. No more sharing of my experiences, whinging when you attack me or being defensive from me as most people on this thread that I have had reply to me(except PM'S) just aren't interested in having any faith.
"I think, until such time that these concessions are removed by society, and until we are all on a level playing field, the atheists and agnostics of the world have every right to feel contempt towards the religious."
The reason that the Bishops are given permission by society to sit in the House of Lords along with the sauce-makers, the political placemen, and the corrupt purchasers of honours in that venerable caravanserai is that the society you speak of has made it so. As to the level playing field, I have yet to hear of anyone of intelligence attempting to say that atheists and agnostics are evil. Wrong, yes. A bit pushy, yes. But believers don't go out of their way to belittle you guys. Free will, and all that.
As I may have intimated, by all means feel contempt. You clearly have the RIGHT - but do you have the NEED?
Bear with us while we just feel a bit sorry for you for what you're missing!
Bear with us while we just feel a bit sorry for you for what you're missing!
Is it anything like a bairns dummy tit? :roll:
The reason that the Bishops are given permission by society to sit in the House of Lords along with the sauce-makers, the political placemen, and the corrupt purchasers of honours in that venerable caravanserai is that the society you speak of has made it so.
Exactly my point! A failing in our society.
As to the level playing field, I have yet to hear of anyone of intelligence attempting to say that atheists and agnostics are evil. Wrong, yes. A bit pushy, yes. But believers don't go out of their way to belittle you guys. Free will, and all that.
I'm not sure I understand.
What's the evil bit about?
My point was that everyone should have the same power/voice/respect etc. Religious voices are somehow "protected" or given higher status by society, something that Society has to change.
I also don't like the way that religion and morality are so often mixed up as one and the same thing. An atheist can be as morally right (or wrong) as anyone. I'd like to see that connection separated.
As I may have intimated, by all means feel contempt. You clearly have the RIGHT - but do you have the NEED?
Again, until we are all treated fairly, I would suggest yes, the Athiest/Agnostic does have to realise they are not in the democracy they might think they are.
Bear with us while we just feel a bit sorry for you for what you're missing!
I thank you for your concern!
And the scores on the doors are:
Meerkat: 30 posts
Greenland: 24 posts
theone: 21 posts
I'm opening a book on this one. I'll give 3/1 that meerkat ends up with the most posts.
Got to do something to make this thread interesting.
Thank you Meerkat you are far more eloquant than I and a refreshing voice of kindness. Hooray for you and I will not be conversing with the bullies again.
Really? I wonder
I was answering the deluded question before someone asked me as I knew they would.
No you weren't.
Where in your post did you answer the question? You never. You only asked it.
Then you took offence when somebody else asked the question.
So blatently hypoocritical, but you can't accept that, and so call it an insult.
Is this really what you enjoy doing, being so negative to others?
Not so much. I prefer a robust debate.
But I doubt I'll get that with yourself, too easily offended.
Anyway I have learned my lesson.
Good for you. I've learned a lot from this forum too.
No more sharing of my experiences, whinging when you attack me
So pointing out hypocrisy is now an attack! The mind boggles.
Anyway, going back to earlier in the thread, do you think you'll manage to throw in the question about which religion is the right one next time you're having a yap with your god?
Maybe if I knew which one was right, I'd get some of this faith.
I just don't want to waste my time and end up like all those Ancient Egyptians, Romans, Vikings etc who must me burning in the fires of hell for not worshipping the Abrahamic god, if that's the right one.
"I think, until such time that these concessions are removed by society, and until we are all on a level playing field, the atheists and agnostics of the world have every right to feel contempt towards the religious."
The reason that the Bishops are given permission by society to sit in the House of Lords along with the sauce-makers, the political placemen, and the corrupt purchasers of honours in that venerable caravanserai is that the society you speak of has made it so. As to the level playing field, I have yet to hear of anyone of intelligence attempting to say that atheists and agnostics are evil. Wrong, yes. A bit pushy, yes. But believers don't go out of their way to belittle you guys. Free will, and all that.
As I may have intimated, by all means feel contempt. You clearly have the RIGHT - but do you have the NEED?
Bear with us while we just feel a bit sorry for you for what you're missing!
A: You say; Atheists are wrong
B: you say; won't belittle you guys
hmmm?
Ay, Gleeber, it is indeed like a bairn's dummy tit. It offers solace and comfort, and has been used by many millions in many societies across the world. That'll be no bad thing, then?
Theone - thanks for bending a little. You may have noticed from my description of the House of Lords that I agree with you it is a failing of society - but a little bit of me says that I would rather have the old boys we used to have, who tended to be a little more disinterested that the present "political pack", than anything so far proposed.
The "evil" I spoke about was the circling of the poor believers by some cruel and relentless dogs of atheism! Atheists, according to them are entitled a) to be the only ones who are right, and b) entitled to call people of faith deluded, hypocritical, or misguided to the point of being swivel-eyed......
Religious voices are protected? Most people laugh at them for their foolishness over such self-generated dilemmas as the ordination of gay priests or women bishops. Although a believer, I feel they aren't doing themselves any favours! As to "higher status", they ARE laughed at as ditherers and moral fence-sitters. Even by a large number of believers.
And yes, I agree with you. Religion and morality often feel they own each other. But I would maintain that a humanist, atheist or agnostic can often show more of the human spirit of goodness than many a "closed mind" Christian who lives by the book, and not the underpinning tenets of faith, hope and charity.
In the name of god is all i can say to that! The water cycle?? Climatic effects are expertly explaned by sceince. How is that evidence of a creator? What there says "this takes a god"??
And no, its not a gap theory, its a theory that explains what we can see and measure. Something else may me causeing it, such as missing mass. Im astonished you cant undertand that, truly. God is a creation that cant be measured or demonstrated. And no matter what complex natural phenomona you mention, science has almost certainly got it covered, where as god is an "im to lazy to figure it out, ill say god did it"......
Climatic effects?? That's vague. So chemicals and environment came together ever-so-neatly by random natural forces to establish a truly astounding cycle that is part of the intricate biosphere that feeds life on this planet? Please provide the definitive proof that you so often demand from others that this cycle started and is maintained by "climatic effects", and while you're at it explain how the oxygen cycle and the nitrogen cycle just happened to also start up and so create such an astonishing planet. Empirical proof required please that it all started up by "natural" forces.
BTW Dark matter cannot be measured or demonstrated. It's a label for a gap in understanding and a theory that is being taught as fact in some quarters.
And the scores on the doors are:
Meerkat: 30 posts
Greenland: 24 posts
theone: 21 posts
I'm opening a book on this one. I'll give 3/1 that meerkat ends up with the most posts.
Got to do something to make this thread interesting.
Ay Oop Chordie - if you're opening a book, I'll put a fiver on me!
Of course, you could join in - either side will do!
Bekisman - to answer the apparent contradiction
"A: You say; Atheists are wrong
B: you say; won't belittle you guys"
Being wrong is not belittlement or humiliation. It occurs in the human race on many occasions. And it is, after all, an opinion, not a judgement. Atheists think I am wrong. That, in itself, is not a put down, and I am not belittled by it. Atheists who say I am wrong and call me pejorative names might well be attempting to belittle me, and might find themselves at the end of upsetting comments!
hmmm?
Ay Oop Chordie - if you're opening a book, I'll put a fiver on me!
I'll take your fiver - because I've just noticed that weezer316 is putting you all to shame with over 70 posts.
Odds are lengthening on the others now. Greenland goes to 25/1.
Och, Chordie, I should have known better! Caithness cunning, is it? OK. It stands!
<snip>
And no, its not a gap theory, its a theory that explains what we can see and measure. Something else may me causeing it, such as missing mass. Im astonished you cant undertand that, truly. <snip>
I too am astonished. Astonished that so many enquiring and obviously bright minds are willing to except a "it just is" explanation for so many things.
Why are we here? We just are. We developed from other life forms. It was kind of inevitable because of the properties of this planet.
Why does this planet have those properties? It just does. The universe is so large that it was bound to happen somewhere.
But everything seems so perfect for life on this planet. Almost like it was designed that way? That's an illusion
Why is it an illusion? Because it just is. We can explain loads of things. But we've never seen a Creator or heard from a Creator and we don't really want a Creator so any evidence that points to a designer is an illusion. It just is.
But what about the fine tuning of the universe how did that come about? It just did. there's probably an infinite number of universes and so one was bound to have the right properties for life to develop.
Is there any proof of other universes? No, but that's probably what happened.
What if there is a higher being of some sort that created this universe and designed it and set it up for life? HAHA! I can't believe you could even begin to believe that! You are sooo deluded! We don't need a god, we don't want a god, we don't believe in a god. Plus there is no evidence for it. This universe is here, life is here, it just is and that's the end of it.
I have this book. It's called the Bible it explains some of the things that science doesn't explain. HAHA! The Bible? That dusty old book? It can't explain anything. Trust in science, we gave you medicine, men on the moon and the Internet. Oh and nuclear bombs and biological warfare.
What if I don't believe your explanation of reality? Then you're a hypocrite, you're deluded and obviously lacking in character.
;)
Ay, Gleeber, it is indeed like a bairn's dummy tit. It offers solace and comfort, and has been used by many millions in many societies across the world. That'll be no bad thing, then?
No it's no a bad thing but danna start skurling when you grow up and mother takes it from you.
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 18:30
Climatic effects?? That's vague. So chemicals and environment came together ever-so-neatly by random natural forces to establish a truly astounding cycle that is part of the intricate biosphere that feeds life on this planet? Please provide the definitive proof that you so often demand from others that this cycle started and is maintained by "climatic effects", and while you're at it explain how the oxygen cycle and the nitrogen cycle just happened to also start up and so create such an astonishing planet. Empirical proof required please that it all started up by "natural" forces.
BTW Dark matter cannot be measured or demonstrated. It's a label for a gap in understanding and a theory that is being taught as fact in some quarters.
You just said it yourself! I have exlained this about 4 times, but for your benefit, here it is again. Like greenland you seem totally unable to understand and attribute things you dont understand to god, who apparently isnt "too vague"...
First off, there are cylces like the carbon cycle in several bodies in the solar system. Venus has mass volcanism for example. Now, Titan has a methane cycle almost exaclty the same as earth does with its water cycle. The difference? Temperature, seeing as its 10 times further away from the sun. Now the sun drives live on earth, through light and heat. The heat evaporates water and creates rain....at infinitum. Thast a natural cycle, driven my a star, that was naturally created, on a planet that was naturally created, using water that was created far far away in the core of a star that exploded.
Now, and dont avoid the question, where do you see evidence of god in any of that? What points to god in anything you see there?
Secondly...again your lack of understanding is the issue, not the data. What is the chances of all the process needed to generate life coming together at once? Id reckon a billion to one, at least. Its very VERY unlikely.
However, if its a billion to one, and you have, unknown number fo planets x 100 billion stars x 150 billion galaxies, then you will still get a billion life supporting planets in the universe. Its sheer numbers, its bound to happen.
Now, given how complex all that is......how much more unlikely is it that there is an even more complex being that design and operate it all?
And I want an asnwer sunshine, dont duck it like you did last time and the time before
The Goldilocks Theory anyone?
Gleeber - I was mindful to give it up as soon as I had a voice and could crawl on my own two knees!
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 18:36
I too am astonished. Astonished that so many enquiring and obviously bright minds are willing to except a "it just is" explanation for so many things.
Why are we here? We just are. We developed from other life forms. It was kind of inevitable because of the properties of this planet.
Why does this planet have those properties? It just does. The universe is so large that it was bound to happen somewhere.
But everything seems so perfect for life on this planet. Almost like it was designed that way? That's an illusion
Why is it an illusion? Because it just is. We can explain loads of things. But we've never seen a Creator or heard from a Creator and we don't really want a Creator so any evidence that points to a designer is an illusion. It just is.
But what about the fine tuning of the universe how did that come about? It just did. there's probably an infinite number of universes and so one was bound to have the right properties for life to develop.
Is there any proof of other universes? No, but that's probably what happened.
What if there is a higher being of some sort that created this universe and designed it and set it up for life? HAHA! I can't believe you could even begin to believe that! You are sooo deluded! We don't need a god, we don't want a god, we don't believe in a god. Plus there is no evidence for it. This universe is here, life is here, it just is and that's the end of it.
I have this book. It's called the Bible it explains some of the things that science doesn't explain. HAHA! The Bible? That dusty old book? It can't explain anything. Trust in science, we gave you medicine, men on the moon and the Internet. Oh and nuclear bombs and biological warfare.
What if I don't believe your explanation of reality? Then you're a hypocrite, you're deluded and obviously lacking in character.
;)
And where did god come from?? The odds on their being a thing more complex than the universe, when you refuse to accept the universe this complex is cpaable of working under its own steam are ludicrously long, far longer than what I suggest
And all you got is a dusty old book to say so.....
You just said it yourself! I have exlained this about 4 times, but for your benefit, here it is again. Like greenland you seem totally unable to understand and attribute things you dont understand to god, who apparently isnt "too vague"...
First off, there are cylces like the carbon cycle in several bodies in the solar system. Venus has mass volcanism for example. Now, Titan has a methane cycle almost exaclty the same as earth does with its water cycle. The difference? Temperature, seeing as its 10 times further away from the sun. Now the sun drives live on earth, through light and heat. The heat evaporates water and creates rain....at infinitum. Thast a natural cycle, driven my a star, that was naturally created, on a planet that was naturally created, using water that was created far far away in the core of a star that exploded.
Now, and dont avoid the question, where do you see evidence of god in any of that? What points to god in anything you see there?
Secondly...again your lack of understanding is the issue, not the data. What is the chances of all the process needed to generate life coming together at once? Id reckon a billion to one, at least. Its very VERY unlikely.
However, if its a billion to one, and you have, unknown number fo planets x 100 billion stars x 150 billion galaxies, then you will still get a billion life supporting planets in the universe. Its sheer numbers, its bound to happen.
Now, given how complex all that is......how much more unlikely is it that there is an even more complex being that design and operate it all?
And I want an asnwer sunshine, dont duck it like you did last time and the time before
LOL. I think it's far more likely that it was designed and created! Once again you explained the effect....not the cause......
The complex cycles that I've mentioned are evidence to me of a Creator. That the elements all came together by themselves and got to work because of "natural" laws is a cop-out. A cop-out that you will no doubt continue to recycle.
And where did god come from?? The odds on their being a thing more complex than the universe, when you refuse to accept the universe this complex is cpaable of working under its own steam are ludicrously long, far longer than what I suggest
And all you got is a dusty old book to say so.....
Yep and the evidence of his Creation. The Bible says that he is the Creator, the maker of all things. So to try to answer where did God come from is impossible. The Bible teaches that He has always been there, eternal in both directions.
Bang on gleeber. Its a product of our evolution, a survival mechanism if you will. Thats all belief in a deity is
That is a good observation weezer and could well be true. If it is then that certainly makes it a very important part of us all and the question we have to ask now is WHY! we need it as a suvival mechanism.
I'm still interested in your answer to this question weezer
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 20:00
LOL. I think it's far more likely that it was designed and created! Once again you explained the effect....not the cause......
The complex cycles that I've mentioned are evidence to me of a Creator. That the elements all came together by themselves and got to work because of "natural" laws is a cop-out. A cop-out that you will no doubt continue to recycle.
No, yours is a cop out! A "im lazy and dont understand the principles behind it, so I will say god did it" common to all religious believers, without any attempt to explain what happens and how it happens. You have just said you think its more likely god did it. Based on what?
Think about it for a second...natural forces power these things, why cant natural forces create them? An answer please? Why cant natural forces create them
I have demonstrated cycles working without life being there, such as titan. Are you goind to say god did that too, if so, for what purpose as there is no life there?
Now answer that question. Why is there a methane cycle exactly the same as the water cycle on earth when there is no life to support?
And to say god always existed is a total cop out indeed, based on nothing more than the bible. The bible says you should kill me for saying god doesnt exist. Why haven't you hunted me down yet? You are picking and choosing what to believe and and beuase scicen cant say what kickstarted the universe you get on a high horse and say god did it.
now an answer please? Why havent you hunted me down and killed me when the bible says you should, why cant natural forces start the carbon cycles etc when they power them today and why is there a methane cycle on titan when there is no life to support?
Got this one from an old chum called Einstein, who appears to have been a bit quick on his feet when it came to maths, science, and knowledge:-
"The law of conservation of energy is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created or destroyed: it can only be transformed from one state to another."
So - energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That means it is, was, and will always be there.
Where did it come from, or is our knowledge incomplete?
I have a wee theory, but - no - that would make me whatever you call people with whom you disagree......
And while we're on the subject of Einstein - another one from the man himself: -
"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."
If the cap fits......
I have a wee theory, but - no - that would make me whatever you call people with whom you disagree......
Theories are good. That's how we come to understand the universe. Put it on paper and present it to your peers with all the available evidence you have at hand. Good Luck.
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 21:05
Got this one from an old chum called Einstein, who appears to have been a bit quick on his feet when it came to maths, science, and knowledge:-
"The law of conservation of energy is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created or destroyed: it can only be transformed from one state to another."
So - energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That means it is, was, and will always be there.
Where did it come from, or is our knowledge incomplete?
I have a wee theory, but - no - that would make me whatever you call people with whom you disagree......
You amazingly manage to outdo yourself with each post.
Read what the second law of thermodynamics says.......
And where did god come from? And if you can claim he always existed, why couldnt the energy/matter?
And you can try answering my last posts too
Amazing the truth finding powers of science eh? Especially when you spend all your time dismissing it
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 21:06
Theories are good. That's how we come to understand the universe. Put it on paper and present it to your peers with all the available evidence you have at hand. Good Luck.
Well said!
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 21:08
Whilst we are on Einstein, you can put your thanks for the general theory of relativity on the record, especially seeing as it destroyed genesis...
Or that bit if his science a bit to "closed minded"
I notice you've ignored the bits that don't work for YOUR theory.
I also notice that Einstein's plea for humility goes unnoted.
And as for "And if you can claim he always existed, why couldnt the energy/matter?" Well - maybe they're one and the same thing. A rose by any other name.
As to answering your spreadeagle question, which boils down to "come on then, prove that God exists?" I just have.
I also notice your question marks are increasing in number.
You really ARE annoyed, aren't you, you poor wee thing!
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 21:29
I notice you've ignored the bits that don't work for YOUR theory.
I also notice that Einstein's plea for humility goes unnoted.
And as for "And if you can claim he always existed, why couldnt the energy/matter?" Well - maybe they're one and the same thing. A rose by any other name.
As to answering your spreadeagle question, which boils down to "come on then, prove that God exists?" I just have.
I also notice your question marks are increasing in number.
You really ARE annoyed, aren't you, you poor wee thing!
You again duck my question! Answer them please, I beg of you!
Then you call god energy and claim that as proof! Thats not proof! You must be able to see this surely! If not then then there is no hope for you.
Im annoyed? No. The qustion havent increased in number you just dont answer them or claim the reaosn behind them is god, despite of no proof!
Again, for your benefit, it comes down to what is the likelyhood of god existing. The odds are smaller, far smaller than the universe forming and running itself seeing as god would be infinitly more complex. Plus there is no evidence. You and I know it, you just choose to ignore evidence and go with nothing more than a hunch. Rather like children do with a wordrobe monster...
Now, again, can I please get an asnwer to the questions posted. Pretty please, with sugar on top?
PS: second law of thermaldynamics says the total amount of disorder always increases. Ill let you figure out how that applies to the first law
I notice you've ignored the bits that don't work for YOUR theory.
I also notice that Einstein's plea for humility goes unnoted.
And as for "And if you can claim he always existed, why couldnt the energy/matter?" Well - maybe they're one and the same thing. A rose by any other name.
As to answering your spreadeagle question, which boils down to "come on then, prove that God exists?" I just have.
I also notice your question marks are increasing in number.
You really ARE annoyed, aren't you, you poor wee thing!
Oh give it a rest now all of you. It's getting monotonous.
Agree to disagree, believe in what you want to believe in.
I don't believe. You do
Move on.
If the total amount of disorder increases, then it must have started out as SOME disorder. If energy can neither be created or destroyed, then what created energy? I want the answer? I want it now? If you don't give me the answer then you are deluded? Exterminate! Extrapolate!
John Little
10-Mar-11, 21:36
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 21:40
If the total amount of disorder increases, then it must have started out as SOME disorder. If energy can neither be created or destroyed, then what created energy? I want the answer? I want it now? If you don't give me the answer then you are deluded? Exterminate! Extrapolate!
We dont have the answer......yet, as we have said all along! And still you duck my questions! You can see where this is going, and it doesn't prove god exists. Unless of course you belive in wardrobe monsters, tooth fairies and the phantom of the opera!
So are tooth fairies real?
Bang on gleeber. Its a product of our evolution, a survival mechanism if you will. Thats all belief in a deity is
I'm still interested in your answer to this question weezer
I dont think weezers going to entetain your enquiry. :lol:
Seeing as he quoted me I will explain what I meant by it. God belief has little or nothing to do with an evolved survival instinct or in fact any kind of God. However, like small children getting a cuddle from their primary carer or growing up in a loving environment, believing in a loving God and in particualr a loving father is just an extension of that childhood need. Simple really. Cuddles for adults and on top of that you live forever. :eek:
That'll do for me! You're right, Shazzap. Bored now. Enough.
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 22:18
That'll do for me! You're right, Shazzap. Bored now. Enough.
Of course! Going gets tough the weak give it up......sounds a bit like natural selection that!
Those questions are still waiting, and will be. Maybe you might want to ask yourself them
weezer 316
10-Mar-11, 22:32
That is a good observation weezer and could well be true. If it is then that certainly makes it a very important part of us all and the question we have to ask now is WHY! we need it as a suvival mechanism.
Apologies I meant to answer earlier but I couldnt remember who had asked and I couldnt find the post!
Im not sure there is a right or wrong answer for why humans have religion. There are so many religions and there isnt a culture without at least one that there will be several reasons.
One which I think is top of the list of reasons though is mans development of civilization. Before Democracy, a power stucture was needed and a god gave a base from which to base a power structure around. A pharoah/king/a.ruler could then say their power was legitimate as they had a mandate from god. This has evolution as its root as civilization was clearly advantageous for human beings survival and helped to prolong life and also increase the chance your genes will be passed on. Therefore, belief in a higher opwer helped civilization flourish from humble beginnings.
Im sure there are several more reasons. Some people are undoubtedly spiritual and its likely they are the root of religions in their respective cultures.
No surprise for me there, lol I don't see it as part of a survival instinct, but not convinced about the cuddly figure either, their god figures are not cuddly or loving at all. A desire perhaps to try and control their invironment and they believed in reincarnation, but it does not explain why the same symbols and Mother goddess appeared in so many diverse cultures. The cuddly element does not quite convince me but I had considered it so I guess I am still looking at the control element.
Apologies I meant to answer earlier but I couldnt remember who had asked and I couldnt find the post!
Im not sure there is a right or wrong answer for why humans have religion. There are so many religions and there isnt a culture without at least one that there will be several reasons.
One which I think is top of the list of reasons though is mans development of civilization. Before Democracy, a power stucture was needed and a god gave a base from which to base a power structure around. A pharoah/king/a.ruler could then say their power was legitimate as they had a mandate from god. This has evolution as its root as civilization was clearly advantageous for human beings survival and helped to prolong life and also increase the chance your genes will be passed on. Therefore, belief in a higher opwer helped civilization flourish from humble beginnings.
Im sure there are several more reasons. Some people are undoubtedly spiritual and its likely they are the root of religions in their respective cultures.
I thought you were not going to answer this one but glad that you have. I would say the god figures emerged before socual structures were required but I have never considered that some people may be considered spiritual and that is some way their spiritual knowledge created a belief system. That is not sitting well with me but still I find it to be a stronger surmise than a comfort figure but will continue to give both more thought.
No, yours is a cop out! A "im lazy and dont understand the principles behind it, so I will say god did it" common to all religious believers, without any attempt to explain what happens and how it happens. You have just said you think its more likely god did it. Based on what?
Think about it for a second...natural forces power these things, why cant natural forces create them? An answer please? Why cant natural forces create them
I have demonstrated cycles working without life being there, such as titan. Are you goind to say god did that too, if so, for what purpose as there is no life there?
Now answer that question. Why is there a methane cycle exactly the same as the water cycle on earth when there is no life to support?
And to say god always existed is a total cop out indeed, based on nothing more than the bible. The bible says you should kill me for saying god doesnt exist. Why haven't you hunted me down yet? You are picking and choosing what to believe and and beuase scicen cant say what kickstarted the universe you get on a high horse and say god did it.
now an answer please? Why havent you hunted me down and killed me when the bible says you should, why cant natural forces start the carbon cycles etc when they power them today and why is there a methane cycle on titan when there is no life to support?
Please tell me where in the Bible it says I have to hunt you down and kill you because you don't believe in God? I have no idea why there is a methane cycle on Titan. How the fact that there is a methane cycle on Titan has any relevance as to whether God exists or not you'll have to explain to me.
Methane cycle on Titan + oxygen/water/nitrogen etc. cycle on earth = no creator.
Interesting equation but you might need to refine a bit for it to catch on in the scientific community. :lol:
OK folks, this has been interesting, frustrating and enlightening. I'm pretty sure that no one has actually managed to convince anyone of anything in fact my faith has been strengthened if anything! So in the knowledge that I will be ridiculed and criticised none the less I'm going to bow out of this discussion for now.
If you'd like to continue our discussion Weezer please PM me.
Please tell me where in the Bible it says I have to hunt you down and kill you because you don't believe in God?
2 Kings 10:18-27 NLT?
weezer 316
11-Mar-11, 09:05
Please tell me where in the Bible it says I have to hunt you down and kill you because you don't believe in God? I have no idea why there is a methane cycle on Titan. How the fact that there is a methane cycle on Titan has any relevance as to whether God exists or not you'll have to explain to me.
Methane cycle on Titan + oxygen/water/nitrogen etc. cycle on earth = no creator.
Interesting equation but you might need to refine a bit for it to catch on in the scientific community. :lol:
Well how on earth does the fact the earth has a water cycle have any relevance to or prove a god either! Like I said, these cycles are a natural process set up and powered naturally, not by god for our benefit. As I said also, you worship a god of the gaps, try and find gaps in scientific knowledge and call said effect god.
And your faith has been strengthened eh! Quite incredible the ignorance some people call faith. What actually happened is your ignorance was strengthened. But thats ok. Reason wins in the end, even over a non-existant almighty god, hence the reason our churches are now practically empty.
secrets in symmetry
11-Mar-11, 23:41
Well how on earth does the fact the earth has a water cycle have any relevance to or prove a god either! Like I said, these cycles are a natural process set up and powered naturally, not by god for our benefit. As I said also, you worship a god of the gaps, try and find gaps in scientific knowledge and call said effect god.
And your faith has been strengthened eh! Quite incredible the ignorance some people call faith. What actually happened is your ignorance was strengthened. But thats ok. Reason wins in the end, even over a non-existant almighty god, hence the reason our churches are now practically empty.For once I agree with you weezy. Saveman's lack of understanding of basic science is an embarrassment.
secrets in symmetry
12-Mar-11, 00:25
I include you with the other delusional posters on hre because you seem incapable of reading a point adn remembering it for for than a second. That's balderdash.
The deluded one is so deluded that her defence of her delusion is even more deluded than her delusion itself, but I suppose that's inevitable when your entire philosophy is based on postmodernist crap, as RecQuery has pointed out on several occasions. She evidently doesn't know that time is part of spacetime and isn't just something invented by humans. It's hardly worth mentioning all the crap she writes on her own site about crystals and healing, but I will. Unlike claims of a God who knows more than we do, and lives beyond our spacetime, the suggestion that crystals have powers that can heal humans is so deludedly lunatic that I haven't even bothered bringing it up until now.
EARTHFROMABOV3
13-Mar-11, 09:51
I think subjects such as this one should be left well alone. Trying to prove Gods existance is sheer impossible. Its never going to be solved, the only way people will know wether or not if there is a God is when they die. Charles Darwin's Theory Of Evolution isnt doing so well im afraid if 75 percent of the worlds population if not more believe in some form of higher power, deity, God whatever you choose to call it.
I think subjects such as this one should be left well alone. Trying to prove Gods existance is sheer impossible. Its never going to be solved, the only way people will know wether or not if there is a God is when they die. Charles Darwin's Theory Of Evolution isnt doing so well im afraid if 75 percent of the worlds population if not more believe in some form of higher power, deity, God whatever you choose to call it.
Oh well if there's that many, I'll have to change my mind.
If you can't beat 'em; join 'em
John Little
13-Mar-11, 12:21
Oh well if there's that many, I'll have to change my mind.
If you can't beat 'em; join 'em
b-ismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīmi.
b-ismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīmi.
Do you know the remaining 112?
John Little
13-Mar-11, 12:31
Do you know the remaining 112?
Nope - but I have them on my wall in stylised Arabic. I thought there were only 99? Send you a pic if you like - it's big and very striking.
My step-son is an Islamic artist. Have a gander at this;
http://www.spiritilluminated.org/Prints/Cairo-07-C-li.htm
The Music Monster
13-Mar-11, 13:12
Nope - but I have them on my wall in stylised Arabic. I thought there were only 99? Send you a pic if you like - it's big and very striking.
My step-son is an Islamic artist. Have a gander at this;
http://www.spiritilluminated.org/Prints/Cairo-07-C-li.htm
That is really beautiful!
Yes, there are 99, the idea being that 100 would be a whole number, and as God is the only complete and perfect being, humans can only offer 99. It's also why Islamic art is never perfect.
I love to pick out the same symbols in Islamic art as on the Pictish carved stones, always make sme wonder .....................
John Little
13-Mar-11, 13:29
Hmm - maybe you'd like to see some more;
http://www.spiritilluminated.org/Prints.htm
You really have to zoom in to see the detail. They are also very expensive; the gold is real gold, the red is vermiliion I think, and the blue is lapis lazuli.
secrets in symmetry
13-Mar-11, 13:59
I think subjects such as this one should be left well alone. Trying to prove Gods existance is sheer impossible. Its never going to be solved, the only way people will know wether or not if there is a God is when they die. Charles Darwin's Theory Of Evolution isnt doing so well im afraid if 75 percent of the worlds population if not more believe in some form of higher power, deity, God whatever you choose to call it.Why the defeatist agnostic fundamentalism? Does your username tell us that you are God? Are you worried that we're closing in on you? Are you trying to put us off the scent?
I don't care what 75% of the world's population or 25% of the world's population believes. The only thing that matters is what the right answer is.
That is really beautiful!
Yes, there are 99, the idea being that 100 would be a whole number, and as God is the only complete and perfect being, humans can only offer 99. It's also why Islamic art is never perfect.
Basmala (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): بسملة basmalah) or Bismillah (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): بسم الله) is an Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language) noun that is used as the collective name of the whole of the recurring Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic) phrase b-ismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīmi. This phrase is recited before each sura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura) except for the ninth sura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba); according to others it constitutes the first verse of 113 suras/chapters of the Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an), and is used in a number of contexts by Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmala
Hmm - maybe you'd like to see some more;
http://www.spiritilluminated.org/Prints.htm
You really have to zoom in to see the detail. They are also very expensive; the gold is real gold, the red is vermiliion I think, and the blue is lapis lazuli.
Many thanks I do appreciate these, I have downloaded them all and can see the detail. Painstaking attention to detail and they must be fantastic when you can see the gold etc
Nope - but I have them on my wall in stylised Arabic. I thought there were only 99? Send you a pic if you like - it's big and very striking.
My step-son is an Islamic artist. Have a gander at this;
http://www.spiritilluminated.org/Prints/Cairo-07-C-li.htm
Yes very nice John
I remember when out in Hong Kong in the late 60's a couple of mates and I purchased some smart looking ties, which had Chinese writing on them - no idea what it said; just looked good.
After a lot of sniggering, from local new-territory folk, was told the writing simply said "Western Pigs"..!
John Little
13-Mar-11, 14:43
Basmala (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): بسملة basmalah) or Bismillah (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): بسم الله) is an Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language) noun that is used as the collective name of the whole of the recurring Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic) phrase b-ismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīmi. This phrase is recited before each sura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura) except for the ninth sura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba); according to others it constitutes the first verse of 113 suras/chapters of the Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an), and is used in a number of contexts by Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmala
Aha! Them Sura things - I thought yoo wuz torkin abaht the 99 names of gord!! I is nut a muslim but iggerant.... :(
John Little
13-Mar-11, 14:44
Yes very nice John
I remember when out in Hong Kong in the late 60's a couple of mates and I purchased some smart looking ties, which had Chinese writing on them - no idea what it said; just looked good.
After a lot of sniggering, from local new-territory folk, was told the writing simply said "Western Pigs"..!
LOL! Where can I get one? I would wear it with pride...
Just listened to BBC Radio 4's "In Doubt We Trust", available on the i-player. Apparently, Einstein and I aren't the only ones arguing for a touch of humility. Socrates had also come to the conclusion that the more we think we know, the less we actually do. But, then again, what did HE know?
secrets in symmetry
13-Mar-11, 15:41
Just listened to BBC Radio 4's "In Doubt We Trust", available on the i-player. Apparently, Einstein and I aren't the only ones arguing for a touch of humility. Socrates had also come to the conclusion that the more we think we know, the less we actually do. But, then again, what did HE know?Are you worshipping False Gods or putting yourself at the same level as Einstein or Socrates?
Just quietly hinting that I favour a touch of humility, along with these venerable gentlemen! Scarcely the same thing as putting myself at their level?
secrets in symmetry
13-Mar-11, 15:50
That's good, but don't go too far along Socrates' route or you'll be in danger of becoming agnostic.
I've read some Einstein and I'm still not sure what he was. I mean what he really, really was.
John Little
13-Mar-11, 15:57
Are you worshipping False Gods or putting yourself at the same level as Einstein or Socrates?
Socrates! Amateur...
Dead right, John. He done it all for the love, not the lucre, that Socrates! And Secrets in Symmetry, me old china, Einstein was NEVER a member of the Spice Girls......
secrets in symmetry
14-Mar-11, 01:21
And Secrets in Symmetry, me old china, Einstein was NEVER a member of the Spice Girls......That's what you think. Who do you think wrote these lines from Say you'll be there?
If you can't work this equation then
I guess I'll have to show you the door
I can tell you right now that it wasn't Posh Beckham. It was Uncle Al!
Now, back to the matter at hand, namely Creation.
I've been reading Universe Creation for Dummies by young Stephan Ho King, but I'm sure he's not God and I'm not convinced his recipe is how it worked. Surely we were supposed to gauge the connection between gravity at different points when Christ's awe fell symbolically into the transporter. Having enough energy in your arguments isn't enough, your ideas have to have enough momentum to make the connection between them and the rich e-curvature of spacetime, and use Big G as Uncle Al did. Does that action give me all the letters in the code for creating the Universe - bar h, obviously? I honestly don't know.
Meanwhile, my inflaton is raring to go. You gotta roll with it!
Your inflaton is more than capable. At a pinch, you could use it to Rule The World. As far as the code is concerned, I believe it is dy by dx, where the limiting value of delta y to delta x tends towards zero. Either that, or "m". I'm sure the Big Man will accept either.
What,,,what...- I've been woken up by all these raging voices denouncing and ridicuiling a concept most of them do not even believe in - GOD!
The GOD thread will run and run, there is no end to it.
GOD is, at the very least, a monument to some deep-rooted anxieties that Orgers seem to have and Orgers are no diffferent from their fellow countrymen.
So I have an idea (although I must say Orger's response to my inspired and healthy idea for exoploding tweed underwear has left me a little doubtful about your appetite for innovation) but here goes!
Inspired by MacDonald's restaurant and Kentucky Fried Chicken, I have decided to create the GOD FRANCHISE. Now what is the difference between that and a Church, you may ask. Well, for starters there will be young women on roller skates whizzing around distributing tortilla chips and healthy bumpers of claret. There will be the loudest electronic church bells so you cant hear a word uttered by priest of franchisee (I think the Catholics may already have this!) For elderly,boney shanked folk like myself comfortable hammocs will be provided.) Then best of all we will play SURVIVOR dispatching to heaven or hell whomever we please. Oh, the bliss of absolute power....! It might be argued that the idea is too American. but we have a speical, hidden weapon to destroy the enemy - CAITHNESS!!! Or as we shall retitle it FLATLAND. Because most of the county is flat....except of course for our mountaoins - the PAPS. HereI think is the source of some pretty powerful relligious imagery. We could have a cult here to trump the Virgin Mary. Up Morvern and on to the Paps, carrying your cross with you. (Only 100 Euros each) There is no end to the profits to be made. No end? Did I say no end? Wasn't there a religion based on that....?
Back to sleep...just turn down the volume level on the theology channel or I'll send a plague of frogs on you....
silverlady
16-Mar-11, 17:46
Watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GhOUaszMGvQ
As long as I live, I'll praise You, Lord!
John Little
16-Mar-11, 19:06
Well if we are into Youtube...
I am not a religious man though I would not elevate myself to claiming that I know all that is in Heaven and Earth. But I would not be without the religion in the world for it has inspired too many of our glories for me to ignore.
I love this;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0nMXunT3A4
I don't believe it at all but it sends the hairs up on my neck - as does a lot of Handel.
The Sistine chapel, Titian's Assumption of the Virgin, Cimabue's frescos at Padova, The Piccolomini galleries, St Peter's in Rome and Tintern Abbey are amongst other things where I see that religion has worked out the best and highest in the human mind.
Like Janus I see both sides and keep my options open, believing neither one nor the other.
But without religion we would lack a lot that is good and beautiful.
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