View Full Version : James Donaldson = Isabella Donaldson (Mowat) m: 21.12.1827 Wick Caithness, and others
This discussion has jumped sideways out of the Forum discussion thread: James Robertson/Robeson & Elizabeth McDonald-Canisbay & Thurso. This has been done to keep a Robertson focus on the discussion.
This new thread is intended to carry detailed discussions of the Donaldson families raised in the Robertson thread. (It may be necessary to refer to the Robertson thread to fully understand the context of these Donaldson discussions.)
I'm pursuing this line as it leads to my wife's Great Grandmother - Mary Jane Donaldson, b: 1871 Carlton Vic / d: 1948 Hawthorn Vic. Mary Jane married John Mowat in 1894 at Maryborough Vic.
Initially, central to these discussions is the Donaldson couple above, James and Isabella (a.k.a Bell). In earlier discussions on the Robertson thread James is referenced as James_Senior.
Their son James (James_Junior in the other place) married Ann Bain in 1861 in Keiss Wick, they are parents of Mary Jane. James_Junior and Ann travelled to Australia in 1862.
James_Senior's parents are recorded as: James Donaldson (for clarity, to be labelled, when necessary, James(1)) and Ann Rolf (also found as Ralf/Ralfe/Ralph)
Isabella Donaldson/Mowat's parents are recorded as: Andrew Mowat and Isbel (or some such).
Matters currently under discussion include:
Clarification of which of: Rolf etc, as Ann's family name.
Ann's b: & d: information, along with those of her husband James(1).
Isabella Donaldson/Mowat's b: & d: information
The family name for the mother of Isabella Donaldson/Mowat
Confirm James_Junior's b: 30.01.1832.
Confirm the location of James_Junior on the 1851 & 1861 Census.
From my Australian perspective this thread can also be used to explore the families of Ann (Craig) Bain.
From above, Ann married James_Junior in 1861. I have the names for Ann's parents and grandparents. I have marriage dates for the three couples; these need confirmation. I have b: information for Ann's parents - Donald Bain and Catherine Rosie. All else is to be found.
regards
-bob kerr
For any data on this Donaldson discussion prior to this thread see http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=23264
The Robertson do however feature in this Donaldson family with Andrew Donaldson marrying Margaret Robertson 6 Jul 1860.
Thanks Bob for setting this new thread.
? What evidence for Isabel Mowat being a daughter of Andrew M?
Note she was in Ulbster at time of birth of her daughter Elisabeth Mowat or Donaldson 1820.
The census age for 1841 can be misleading.
Tricia
DATA for Thought
Andrew Mowat and Elizabeth Harper had C110432
Andrew c 1800 and Isobella 1795 and Christian 1797 Wick. (Not viewed on Scot Peop to know location)
The Andrew as informant on birth 1820 of Elisabeth Mowat/Donaldson below could be Isabella's brother a boat builder as he is around in various census as a boat builder then fishcurer in Janetstown by 1871.
SP record
30/06/1820 DONALDSON ELISABETH OR MOWAT//JAMES DONALDSON/ISOBEL MOWAT WICK /CAITHNESS 043/ 0040 0015
" James in Sarclet had by Isabel Mowat in Ulbster an illegitimate child named Elizabeth born April 30th bapt June 30th witnesses Andrew Mowat boat carpenter Ulbster and George Donaldson a Tailor in Wick"
Hi Tricia,
For consideration:
All from scotlandspeople OPR
ONE:
Isabella Mowat
Female
Parent - Andrew
Parent Is*
1.01.1810
ORKNEY
TWO:
Elisabeth Donaldson
Female
Parent - James
Parent - Isobel Mowat
30.06.1820
CAITHNESS
What does all this mean?
If true, our Isabella was nine and some when she became pregnant, then ten and some when Elisabeth was born in April 1820.
If we have James_Senior's birth year correct (1788) at 1819 / 1820 he would have been 31 / 32. The difference in their ages is greater than the 15 years shown at C41. If the above is correct, at C41 Isbel should be 31.
The events described above may also explain the seven years between Elisabeth's birth and the marriage of James and Isabella (Bell on the marriage record). They waited till Bell was at least 17.
I've only looked at the SP index records, haven't seen any supporting detail; for later.
I've done some early work on Ann Rolf (or whatever). My notes are a mess; for later.
Regards
-bob
DATA for Thought
Andrew Mowat and Elizabeth Harper had C110432
Andrew c 1800 and Isobella 1795 and Christian 1797 Wick. (Not viewed on Scot Peop to know location)
The Andrew as informant on birth 1820 of Elisabeth Mowat/Donaldson below could be Isabella's brother a boat builder as he is around in various census as a boat builder then fishcurer in Janetstown by 1871.
SP record
30/06/1820 DONALDSON ELISABETH OR MOWAT//JAMES DONALDSON/ISOBEL MOWAT WICK /CAITHNESS 043/ 0040 0015
" James in Sarclet had by Isabel Mowat in Ulbster an illegitimate child named Elizabeth born April 30th bapt June 30th witnesses Andrew Mowat boat carpenter Ulbster and George Donaldson a Tailor in Wick"
Hi Tricia,
I don't understand your C110432 on the first line. I think my general ignorance.
The remainder is a better option for the birth of Elisabeth. Gives Bell a better age at 1819/20! Also, could witness Andrew Mowat be her father?
But why the seven year gap between Elisabeth's birth and the marriage? Unless James_Senior was away somewhere?
Regards
Bob
I think you may have wrong Isabel Mowat born in Orkney.
I imagine she is more likely to be the one I posted last message
ie:
Andrew Mowat and Elizabeth Harper had following children C110432
Andrew c 1800 and Isobella 1795 and Christian 1797 Wick.
=
SP 05/01/1795 MOWAT ISOBELLA ANDREW MOWAT/ELIZABETH HARPER WICK /CAITHNESS 043/ 0030 0127
FROM SP viewed (copy if you want)
She was born in Sibster to Andrew Mowat and Elizabeth Harper and witnesses were Andrew Mowat and David Harper both from Sibster.
B 1795 certainly makes her able whilst living in ULBSTER to have illeg daug 1820 named Elizabeth (named after her mother as tradition?).
However also but in Bower
SP:
12/08/1799 MOWAT ISABELL ANDREW MOWAT/JANET DONALDSON FR 167 F BOWER /CAITHNESS 034/ 0010 0256
NB Christian b1797 sister of Isabellab 1795 was also born in Sibster.
Anyone else help.
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
C110432 is the IGI Batch Number
1701 - 1854
PS I have Kerr in Caithness. :) but that is a different topic
Tricia
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
C110432 is the IGI Batch Number
1701 - 1854
PS I have Kerr in Caithness. :) but that is a different topic
Tricia
Hi Tricia,
Re the IGI batch number - thanks. Something I've not yet tried. We have a couple of LDS place close; eventually it'll need to be done. Does the LDS material provide more than SP?
Research for my Kerr family threads takes me to AYR - Dalry & Beith and the south of England. I'm solid back to the 1850s at the moment (for GG.GP level) and some lines before. Some folk on the net have pushed back much much further, however, with little supporting evidence. A path for a later journey.
My mother-in-law (she who was initially a Mowat) is 92 next week, I'm trying to get some holes filled on this work before them. A triumph of hope I suspect!
Regarding Isabella Mowat - I have some work to do, it may be a couple of days.
Regards
Bob
I think you may have wrong Isabel Mowat born in Orkney.
I imagine she is more likely to be the one I posted last message
ie:
Andrew Mowat and Elizabeth Harper had following children C110432
Andrew c 1800 and Isobella 1795 and Christian 1797 Wick.
=
SP 05/01/1795 MOWAT ISOBELLA ANDREW MOWAT/ELIZABETH HARPER WICK /CAITHNESS 043/ 0030 0127
FROM SP viewed (copy if you want)
She was born in Sibster to Andrew Mowat and Elizabeth Harper and witnesses were Andrew Mowat and David Harper both from Sibster.
B 1795 certainly makes her able whilst living in ULBSTER to have illeg daug 1820 named Elizabeth (named after her mother as tradition?).
However also but in Bower
SP:
12/08/1799 MOWAT ISABELL ANDREW MOWAT/JANET DONALDSON FR 167 F BOWER /CAITHNESS 034/ 0010 0256
NB Christian b1797 sister of Isabellab 1795 was also born in Sibster.
Anyone else help.
Hi Tricia,
No question, as I reflected later my work on ISabella is not correct.
I have Bell's mother Isbel and I cannot recall how this became so; it is distracting my work.
Work to be done.
regards
Hi Tricia,
As promised, this material is where I've got to with my work looking at the life of Ann Ralf.
What we know:
At death 04.03.1874 of son, James_Senior - Mother: Ann Donaldson MS Ralf (deceased) [scotlandspeople (SP) image]
At birth 01.03.1788 of son James_Senior - Parents: James Donaldson / Ann Ralf [SP birth index record]
Between 1740 and 1799, only one marriage of a James Donaldson to Ann R* recorded on (SP) search - County/City: All Records
Marriage 17.11.1781 Wick Caithness of James Donaldson [Assumption James(1)] to Ann Rolf [(SP) marriage index record]
Description on marriage document. [Words in () are not clear. Words between ? ?, separated by / are guesses.]
Donaldson James Sarclet was matrimonially contracted to Ann ?Ralf/Rolf? in Thrumster (Caithness) for the man James ?Bremner? in Thrumster, and for the woman George (Miller?) ?joiner/junior? in Thrumster.
Children of James and Ann.
All WICK / CAITHNESS
No Date Surname Forename Parent Names/Frame No. GROS Data
1. 25/05/1785 DONALDSON ALEXANDER JAMES DONALDSON/ANN RALF 043/ 0030 0035
2. 20/01/1793 DONALDSON CATHERIN JAMES DONALDSON/ANN RARPH 043/ 0030 0109
3. 11/12/1782 DONALDSON GEORGE JAMES DONALDSON/ANN RALFE 043/ 0030 0017
4. 22/10/1790 DONALDSON HELEN JAMES DONALDSON/ANN RALPH 043/ 0030 0088
5. 01/03/1788 DONALDSON JAMES JAMES DONALDSON/ANN RALF 043/ 0030 006
Census information: I cannot find anything C41 information for Ann or James(1).
Establishing Ann's birth.
On SP between 1700 and 1770 for All County/City records:
Birth of - Ann Rolf (0 index entries);
Ann Rolfe (0);
Ann Rarph (0);
Ann Ralf (1); - 1706, not our Ann!
Ann Ralfe (0);
Ann Ralphe (0);
Ann Ralph (12) [of these 0 recorded for Caithness]
Of these 12, a tighter focus between 1740 and 1765, halves the number, to six.
No Date Sur Fore Parent Names/Frame No. Sex Parish City/County GROS Data
1. 01/12/1741 RALPH ANN THOMAS RALPH/ F FIRTH AND
STENNESS /ORKNEY 017/ 0010 0311
2. 10/01/1753 RALPH ANN GEORGE RALPH/ F STRATHMIGLO /FIFE 457/ 0010 0033
3. 20/11/1755 RALPH ANNE WILLIAM RALPH/
ANNE MAIN FR113 F ARDERSIER /INVERNESS 091/ 0010 0028
4. 01/01/1756 RALPH ANNE ALEXR. RALPH/
MARGT. SHAW F KINLOSS /MORAY 138/ 0010 0121
5. 20/04/1760 RALPH ANNE WM. RALPH/
ISOBEL MILLAR F ALVES /MORAY 125/ 0020 0255
6. 01/07/1763 RALPH ANNE JAMES RALPH/
JANNET MUTERER F ALVES /MORAY 125/ 0020 0270
Establishing Ann's death.
From the records relating to the birth of the children, Ann lived at least until January 1793.
And, based on no information regarding Ann Donaldson in the 1841 Census, the assumption is to search between these two years, i.e. 1792 to 1842.
An initial search of OPR records show no death for Ann Donaldson in Caithness during the period. (Also, nothing for James Donaldson, as well.)
It would seem - up in a puff of smoke! I'm doing something wrong!
Regards
Hi Bob
Agree with data as you listed down to births to James and Ann.
1841 census their are 2 Donaldson females who could fit.
Ann aged 75 and A widow aged 77. One also shows aged 82 in 1851 but must have died before 1855 when records for deaths were kept.
I had typed it all up but computer stalled before I sent it ................ :( so sending this now.
Hi Bob
Agree with data as you listed down to births to James and Ann.
1841 census their are 2 Donaldson females who could fit.
Ann aged 75 and A widow aged 77. One also shows aged 82 in 1851 but must have died before 1855 when records for deaths were kept.
I had typed it all up but computer stalled before I sent it ................ :( so sending this now.
Hi Tricia,
I think bingo on the C51 entry.
On freecen.org for C41 I only see the 75yo, with nothing to make a call.
On C61 nothing.
For me the connection on the C51 is the niece. As I see it J&A's daughter Helen had three option for marriage - one was James CAMPBELL (1823). The HARPER on C41 doesn't fit for either daughter. (Catherine = Sutherland nor Helen = Craig / Campbell / Flett)
So to Ann's death:
On SP: between 1851 and 1854 death of 13 Ann D's, none in Caithness; between 1855 and 1861 death of 2 Ann D's both 1855 (87 yo & 92); neither Caithness.
All this material has been cut from SP into my email system. I'm not going to move it to this forum. The mess will take too long to clean up.)
We are edging closer!
Regards
-bob
Hi Tricia,
Following from SP:
Date: 10/04/1838
Name: CAMPBELL MAY (F)
Parents: JAMES CAMPBELL/HELEN DONALDSON
Location: HALKIRK/CAITHNESS 037/ 0020 0099
The name isn't correct.
The birth date fits with the stated age on C51
I think it might be a reasonable start point to say Ann Ralf was still living during 1851.
Assuming her age at C51 is in the range 80 - 85, maybe we can say she was born somewhere in the range 1760-1775, as a start for a search. I think this means we are looking for RALPH, not Ralf or Rolf in this period, from previous research.
Regards
-bob
Hi Bob
1841: the 2 entries
the 1841 census in Brickigoe Wick District 6.
with an Ann D aged 75 and Ann Harper aged 7.
young Ann is Ann Harper b 1833 app Wick - daughter of John Harper and Janet Donaldson. her mother Janet Donaldson 1809- 1898 parents being John Donaldson and Ann Bain in Latheron.
other more probable in 1841 has a widow? Donaldson aged 77..
Piece: SCT1841/43 Place: Wick -Caithness Enumeration District: 7
Civil Parish: Wick Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 0 Page: 20
Address: -
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
DONALDN Widow F 76 Labourer Caithness
DONALDN Anne F 42 Caithness
DONALDN Janet F 35 Caithness
They are in Sarclet close to James D and Isobel Mowat. (also next door to some of my family) Certainly correct area but we need to find who the 42 Ann and 35 Janet are. I have not yet found ...
1851:
Ann D with a niece Henrietta Campbell!!
* Ann living in Winlass(Winless). as head of house.
Why would she move so late in life.
and in 1841
There is Ann D in Winlass in 1841 Enumeration District: 1
Wick Ecclesiastical Parish,Folio: 0 Page: 7
farmer aged 60 with a son James 25 - remember ages in 1841 could be way out.
I would favour the 1841 in Sarclet !!! E District 7. (SEE NEXT MESSAGE FOR CHANGE OF MIND)
.
I would favour the 1841 in Sarclet !!! E District 7.
.
BOB
NOW changed my mind on that - reckon "widow" was Margaret Bruce widow of George Donaldson.b 1763.app his Father George (George D b 1763 app has a brother of James D b 1750)!!!!.Yours ??.
SP death for Janet b 1807 app (in1841 census) died 1855 in Sarclet aged 48 unmarried daughter of George Donaldson and Margaret Bruce.
She had a sister Ann b 1797 app....
however your
Ann Donaldson daughter of James D & Ann Ralf(Raff)
married William Bruce 26 Feb 1819
She died 1875(SP death Cert) Wick aged 77
1841 with husband and family in Sarclet
.
Hi Tricia,
Out of town without my files. We are celebrating 92nd birthday of my mother-in-law. A daughter of Ethel Ann Mowat; she who started all this.
I suspect little will be done until the weekend.
In your lastest posts there is much food for though and action. Finding James and Ann, for me, has become an interesting challenge. Once done I can move to James & Isabella.
After all this I have some gaps in my Mowat and Bain lines, where I may seek further advice. That's for the future.
btw: I may have at least one connection with Winless; I think one of my Mowats living there circ. 1840/50.
Regards
-bob
It is almost a month since my last post on this matter. The following is a summary of progress made and where I think the discussion reached before the pause. It isn't a rehash of all the detail in the posts below, just a list of the challenges outstanding. The earlier posts may need to be read to obtain the full picture.
Background: The research is to obtain the history of Ethel Ann Mowat (EAM) born Maryborough Victoria 1895, died Maryborough Victoria 1982.
Three James Donaldson's play an important past in her history.
A James was EAM's grandfather; his father was James D (the James_D = Isabella Mowat); and then there's the final James, the Father / Grandfather of the other two James').
The marriages of the three James of interest are as follows:
1. James_D (EAM's grandfather) = Ann Bain :: 09.08.1861
2. James_D = Isabella Mowat :: 21.12.1827
3. James_D = Ann Ralf (or ROLF/RALFE ...) :: 17.11.1781
For 1:
We need the birth of this James. His marriage to Ann Bain and an entry at Census_1841 suggests 1831/32. Age at death suggests pre 1830.
(note: The history for Ann Bain will be addressed in a separate post.)
For 2:
We need both the birth and death for this Isabella Mowat. A number of options exist. These are set out in ealier posts. Father Andrew Mowat is certain.
For 3:
We need birth and death for both James and Ann.
Advice / guidance will be appreciated.
BOB
NOW changed my mind on that - reckon "widow" was Margaret Bruce widow of George Donaldson.b 1763.app his Father George (George D b 1763 app has a brother of James D b 1750)!!!!.Yours ??.
SP death for Janet b 1807 app (in1841 census) died 1855 in Sarclet aged 48 unmarried daughter of George Donaldson and Margaret Bruce.
She had a sister Ann b 1797 app....
however your
Ann Donaldson daughter of James D & Ann Ralf(Raff)
married William Bruce 26 Feb 1819
She died 1875(SP death Cert) Wick aged 77
1841 with husband and family in Sarclet
.
Hi Tricia,
I reckon you are correct this "widow" is Margt. Bruce. FamilySearch shows she had daug. Anne (b1797) and Janet (b1807). C41 ages being what they are birth years are close.
My earlier research didn't find a James_D & Ann Ralf daug Ann. Maybe I missed a variation of Ann's surname in my searching.
James Donaldson = Ann Rolf 17/11/1781 Wick Caithness (043/ 0030 0414)
Ann was recorded as in Thrumster in the marriage document.
On SP I can find 6 potential births for Ann - all RALPH. (One of a number of spellings of her surname used when recording the birth of her children with James.)
Question: Was there a minimum female age for marraige at 1781?
This could help knock out the dates close to 1781.
No birth is from Caithness. They are in: Orkney(1741); Fife (1753); Inverness(1755) and three from Moray(1756, 1760 1763).
Question: Is it reasonable, or not, to think folk would travel from these four different areas to Caithness during these times?
From a distance I'm ignorant of these things. My take so far in my reseach is folk were born, lived, married and died in very close proximity.
Thanks in anticipation.
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