When Did Scots Counties become Shires?

[golach]

When did Scottish Counties become shires and why?
I have been looking at an old atlas circa 1939 and noticed that all the Scottish Counties were shown as “ County of Perth, County of Ayr etc”.
But on a more modern atlas the majority of Scottish Counties have be come “Shires”
Sic Perthshire & Ayrshire. Why? How, and by whom?
To me a “Shire” is a former administrative district of England; equivalent to a county.
I understand the political regions when they were instituted but not the adding on of an Anglo – Saxon term to the end of our Counties.
Thank goodness that Caithness, Angus, Fife or any of the Lothian’s to name but a few cannot have shire added to the name of the county.
Before our supersensitive neighbours from the South start thinking I am having a pop at them I am not, I am genuinely curious

Golach

[hugh ross]

If you refer to Ordnance Survey 1880,s then all are shires, including Caithness ans Fife!!

[JAWS]

Golach, don't fall over but I'm with you on this one. I really am curious.

It brings to mind several linked questions.

William, Duke of Normandy, invaded England and became King William the Conqueror.
Just England not Scotland, not even Wales.

He then had his cronies Lord it over the English, literally. Sheriffs were "Shire Reeves", basically the thugs who enforced the Lord's will.

Scotland was never conquered by the Normans or if it was it slipped out of my history books.
How then did Scotland end up with Sheriffs who are still there to enforce the law in the local court?

Even more puzzling is just how so many of Scotlands great families of Norman descent. I'm sure the local Lairds didn't say "Do please come and take over from me!"

Come on you History Buffs! Just how did Scotland end up with Normans, Sheriffs and Shires?

[Kenn]

Shires were first instigated when the Anglo Saxons regained the lands from The Danelaw.
Originally they were autonomus states that later coalesced into a Kingdom.This system was adopted by the Normans who put at the head of each a shire reef/reeve that became known as a sheriff, he in turn appointed deputies to maintain law and order.

The system was adopted in Scotland during the 12th Century under the auspices of one Malcolm Canmore but did not spread to the whole of Scotland until the 17th century.

The 1746 Act abolishing hereditry juristrictions did away with many sheriffs who continued to maintain an independent attitude.

The name Shire was used in both countries to denote an area that had the right to Parliamentary Representation but the name started to fall out of use after The Re-Distrubution act of 1918.

Hope that goes some way to explaining why either term could be used on maps.

[JAWS]

Wow! Thanks for that LIZZ. I must confess that I thought the Shires were an invention of the Normans, but obviously not.

You wouldn't happen to know how Norman families got to such prominence in Scotland would you?

[Kenn]

Well the so called Normans were Vikings mainly from Denmark who first acted as mercenaries for the French and were later awarded lands and titles in the area of France still known as Normandy (Land of The Norse Men).With all the Viking influences on Scotland maybe the same ideas came from the Norwegian Vikings who at various times held Shetland,Orkney,The Hebrides and had more than a passing interest in Caithness.

Not bad fer a sassenach eh? [lol]

[JAWS]

Not bad at all, I'm impressed.
I never realised it before but really there's only the Welsh who aren't really a common or garden mongrel mixture. :evil

[George Brims]

Actually Lizz, the Normans had Norse Viking connections as well as Danish. William the Conqueror's grandfather was born in Caithness. The reason so many Scottish nobles were Norman was that the King of Scotland at the time offered lands to them in order to make them allies rather than have them overrun the place. Of course fealty to the king was presumably a condition of accepting the gift. He was probably a smart man. The Normans took over England with little trouble, so expanding to Scotland would probably have been their next expansion.

Getting back to the subject of shires vs counties, a guaranteed way to get in trouble with a Fifer is to call Fife a county (or a shire!). They still maintain it's a KINGDOM. Anyone know why?

[golach]

Ach george,
it called 'e Kingdom because in the days before Edinburgh or Perth. Dunfermline Abbey was where the Scottish Kings were crowned and the Kings also lived there,
A line of an old poem sticks in my mind.
" The King sat in Dunfermline toon drinking the blood red wine, saying whar will I get a skeely skipper to sail this ship o mine" I think the poem is "The Ballad of Sir John Spence"

Golach

[Kenn]

Well,well,well..thanks gbrims you have just given me, or rather Ken another Scot's connection and this time a direct one to Caithness.Ken has direct descent from a certain cousin of William the Conqueror so if his grandfather was born in Caithness then chances are we have cousins there to the 20th or there abouts removed!Small world eh?

Jaws you mentioned the Welsh well I'm standing up for The Cornish we might have intermingled with the Bretons and Welsh with an Irish influence some where off to the right but in many families both the name and the blood line still runs true just goes to show when remote corners of these islands are left to their own devices they can preserve an identity and custom.

OK golach's come up with an answer about Fife..but can any one tell me where the boundaries of The Pictish Kingdon were?

Over to you Mad Pict [lol]

[JAWS]

Sorry LIZZ I forgot about Kernow. And very independantly minded they are too.

The Scots obviously knew enough about Dear William to keep on his right side. They must have been aware that his parents truthfully were not married and the name he was known by not only defined that status but also, and more to the point, it most definitely described his nature.

If a castle he was attacking withstood him too long his actions were more in line with the more extreme actions seen in some recent African civil wars. Hacking everybodies hands or feet off was quite usual.

After the Northern Barons revolt in England he exacted savage revenge. The description of "Lancashire was laid waste" was not an exageration it literally was. Yorkshire, decades later was still baren. Everything had been destroyed and the whole population left to starve.

With a neighbour like that who needs enemies. And the Norsemen were still a threat from across the North Sea so having the Normans as allies would definitely seem a good idea.