View Full Version : Anti American
This was a description of someone used in another thread, I was going to reply but decided it was a subject which deserved a thread of it's own.
I believe that if you were to stop people in the street in America and ask them what America stood for the vast majority of them would reply "freedom and democracy".
So if someone is fighting the American government's policy of installing military dictators in countries, often overthrowing a democracy to do it, in the late 20th century can they actually be described as anti American? Or was it the American government which was anti American?
Sara Jevo
06-Jun-10, 06:39
I believe that if you were to stop people in the street in America and ask them what America stood for the vast majority of them would reply "freedom and democracy".
I'm sure that's true. But their freedom and democracy tends to come at the expense of others' freedom and democracy. It fosters a somewhat selfish outlook towards the resources of the world. Whatever else America stands for, it isn't egalitarianism.
Bit to ott for me this.As usual, not my field, but as I am off to usa in a few days I may convey your thoughts fred to my son an family there, an then again I may not.-depends how sober I am ;) an I will tell you there is not much chance of that.
Apoligies for not giving you a more coherent reply to your well presented post!
Another Anti-American thread en-route...............let us NEVER forget it was young Americans that put their lives on the line when Our bottoms were against the wall............
i honestly dont know what to say to this.. as an american i feel slightly offended by the huge brush you are using to paint us all with because of the actions of a few. perhaps you should look to your own door before you start casting shadows on others?
however, i will be the first to admit that the govt. is corrupt does not mean the people are.
americans are just like everyone else. living their lives day to day.. laughing loving crying and struggling. we are mothers fathers sons and daughters just like you.
every single day our men and women are laying their lives on the line and giving them up for the ideal of a better tomorrow. this is both the US and UK
the men and women doing everything they can, laying down their lives for a better future are not doing it to cause disent and power plays. its the few crooked corrupt men and women in charge that are doing that.
Another Anti-American thread en-route...............let us NEVER forget it was young Americans that put their lives on the line when Our bottoms were against the wall............
So true andmac, not once but twice!!!
I am not going to make anymore comments on this thread the OP is well known for this type of posting.
I hope none of my American Org pals think we all are like him!!!!!!!
This person is an embarrassment to the Org
There are opposing forces amongst everything in nature and human relations are no different.
Ive come to understand that and ultimately made a conscious decision where to hang my hat.
The Americans are a freedom loving people who take no nonsense. I'm with them and by default I support the state of Israel who stopped taking nonsense 60 years ago after centuries of persecution.
I can still be concerned by their methods and 2 things come to mind.
First, I'm glad its not me who has to make those monumental decisions and second I'm gladder it's not you fred.
i honestly dont know what to say to this.. as an american i feel slightly offended by the huge brush you are using to paint us all with because of the actions of a few. perhaps you should look to your own door before you start casting shadows on others?
however, i will be the first to admit that the govt. is corrupt does not mean the people are.
americans are just like everyone else. living their lives day to day.. laughing loving crying and struggling. we are mothers fathers sons and daughters just like you.
every single day our men and women are laying their lives on the line and giving them up for the ideal of a better tomorrow. this is both the US and UK
the men and women doing everything they can, laying down their lives for a better future are not doing it to cause disent and power plays. its the few crooked corrupt men and women in charge that are doing that.
I'm with you on this one Brandy. :D
In my experience we and our American friends have more similarities than differences.
We have the same or similar less than honourable representatives in government.
We have the same or similar less than honest operators in our banking and financial systems.
We have the same or similar new draconian legislation in the name of combating terrorism.
I could go on - but you'll know where I'm going.
The problem is we the people believe in democracy and yet there are those in government who are working to deny us this.
However I have to say many Americans can't spell oor wurds propperlie ;)
you lie!! *G* its you brits that cant spell! really! Tyre? Colour? really why would you add letters to perfectly fine words! its tire and color.. shakes head.. *grins* they are so stuck in the past.. stiff uper lip and all that.. *winks*
Sara Jevo
06-Jun-10, 10:01
It's too easy to wave a flag of patriotism at this thread and complain it is a slur on the men and women sent on military adventures around the world in the name of "freedom and democracy".
Ask why it is is necessary at all for soldiers to be sent into foreign lands.
At the root of this is the disproportionate consumption of the world's resources by countries like the USA, with the UK and other Western nations not far behind.
Each year, the population of Britain has consumed it's share of the world's resources by April; by October, the population of the world has consumed it's share.
The nett effect of all this that each year we eat into more and more of the world's "capital".
American militarism may well be dressed up in "freedom and democracy".
In reality, it is about the USA in particular and the West in general asserting their "freedom" to continuing consuming the world's resources at rates that cannot be sustained.
As these resources diminish, so competition between countries will increase - and with it the risk of greater conflict in future.
That is what I mean by the selfish outlook towards the world's resources by countries such as America. In a word, it is greed. It aims to support a lifestyle the planet simply cannot sustain.
Boozeburglar
06-Jun-10, 10:06
So if someone is fighting the American government's policy of installing military dictators in countries, often overthrowing a democracy to do it, in the late 20th century can they actually be described as anti American? Or was it the American government which was anti American?
Perhaps you could sort out this part of your post for clarity.
On the whole I would agree that the US government has often acted against the spirit of freedom and democracy associated with that country.
I cannot think of a government that does not have inherent contradictions of some nature.
In that light, the US seem to be little different than other liberal democracies of the last hundred years.
The question for me is how does a country attain status of shining beacon for democracy, and how is that status maintained through decades of international hostility and frequent authoritarian actions against its citizenry?
Seems the bubble has burst in the last two decades. The US has to thank globalization for its position in the modern world, but now is destined to be damned for all the faults of that trend, and scrutinized for its purveyance of the 'one size fits all' democracy and capitalism package that has utterly failed to flex to the needs of the people it exploits.
i honestly dont know what to say to this.. as an american i feel slightly offended by the huge brush you are using to paint us all with because of the actions of a few. perhaps you should look to your own door before you start casting shadows on others?
Someone mentioned that Tariq Ali was considered anti-American on another thread. He was considered anti American for opposing their support for a military dictatorship in Pakistan.
Would you say that being opposed to military dictatorships is un American? It just stuck me as odd that most Americans would say America stands for freedom and democracy yet someone opposed to a military dictatorship was branded anti American.
I would have brought it up on the other thread but it isn't really what the thread was about.
Im no politition but i think if the United nations and some of its members werent so soft in dealing with countrys that continually break international law america and its closest allies wouldnt need to take the leading role in sorting things out thats the problem.
In this day and age u need a strong un which we dont have so when there is a country breaking international law its up to the un and all the members to sort it out and not just the few countrys
well to tell you the truth only americans can be "un american" everyone is entitled to thier views and that is what makes the world a great place to be, diversity.
at the end of the day its the people of america who make it america.. not the grandstanding or foreign affairs.. but the day to day life on american soil.
as far as going against US politics.. there have been many proud american who have refused to go overseas and fight a fight that they do not belive in.
Lots of military personell that have refused dispatch and gone awol because they do not belive in what they are fighting for. does it make them unamerican, anti-america or unpatriotic? in my opinion and in the opinion of lots of others .... No.
we as individuals do what our own moral codes allow us.
and if we are brave enough to stand up to the powers that be and say this is wrong i wont be a part of it and yes i am willing to be imprisioned for my beliefs.. then i would say that is very American.
America is a melting pot of nations, its very foundation was based upon freedom from oppression and dictatorship.
the general peoples still belive in the rights and fight for them everyday.
is it a happy sunshine land of rainbows and roses? no way
but it is what it is.
just because you have political powers that try to make things the way they want them does not mean anything if the people they represent do not agree..
they can go behind closed doors and do what they want, and unfortunatly as long as its not on our doorsteps we tend to turn a blind eye.
however, america is not a county of people that will turn belly up and do what the govt says willy nilly..
they are more likley to revolt..
we are a mule headed breed of people and have a lot of faith.. scary at times but at the end of the day its the truth and i would not like to see what would happen if the US ever did rise in civil unrest.
Im no politition but i think if the United nations and some of its members werent so soft in dealing with countrys that continually break international law america and its closest allies wouldnt need to take the leading role in sorting things out thats the problem.
In this day and age u need a strong un which we dont have so when there is a country breaking international law its up to the un and all the members to sort it out and not just the few countrys
Unfortunately America and it's allies, including Britain, are some of the worst offenders when it comes to breaking international laws and destroying the credibility of the UN.
Boozeburglar
06-Jun-10, 12:03
Why would anyone care about the credibilty of any organisation ruled by the Lizard Kings?
Another Anti-American thread en-route...............
Another? How would you know - you only have 2 posts to your credit. I suspect this is a banned member returning or someone using an alias ;)
I have no clear views on the subject. I do prefer America's (and our) government and way of life to that of other countries but I also believe it is not for us to say anothers' way of life is wrong. This whole view becomes a bit of a grey (the proper spelling ;) ) when genocide is involved. Hmmm thank God (whichever god you worship) I'm not a politician.
Anyone watched The West Wing? That was a great program! ;)
Another? How would you know - you only have 2 posts to your credit. I suspect this is a banned member returning or someone using an alias
I would check when andmac became a member of the Org! A lot longer than you Leanne. He has been a friend of many of us in the Chat room for years.
One does not need to be a prolific poster to be a good Orger, unlike some who post just to get their post tallies increased.
I would suggest you do a bit more research before broadcasting your suspicions[disgust]
I would check when andmac became a member of the Org! A lot longer than you Leanne. He has been a friend of many of us in the Chat room for years.
One does not need to be a prolific poster to be a good Orger, unlike some who post just to get their post tallies increased.
I would suggest you do a bit more research before broadcasting your suspicions[disgust]
Oh yes - 2006 - I stand corrected :eek:. I give my apologies Andmac :) I think the org is turning me into a conspiracy theorist! 2 posts in 4 years - what makes the anti-American post worthy of comment but not others? I always wondered how 'lurkers' minds work.
Could we please combine the hawking thread and the anti-american thread? They are equally preposterous....
Could we please combine the hawking thread and the anti-american thread? They are equally preposterous....
Why? And a few more words to make the required 10 characters
The Hawking thread is already a train wreck because none of us has much of a clue what constitutes his scientific greatness. Maybe it has something to do with doppler shifts and the ever expanding nature of the universe, maybe interested ORGers should take a university course. It might be fun.
As for the Anti-American, Anti-Jewish thread, well, that's not a place I could go to!
The Hawking thread is already a train wreck because none of us has much of a clue what constitutes his scientific greatness.
*puts hand in air* Me me me Sir, I have :) :) :)
oldmarine
06-Jun-10, 22:10
So much has changed and clouded the minds of people in the US of America (and the world) that I have forgotten why we fought that great WW2 so many years ago. I believe the US of A and Great Britain have, in general, forgotten why that war was fought. When we were fighting that great war I thought it was to preserve freedom. So many things have happened since then I believe younger people who have come along don't have any idea why that war was fought. It appears that no one believes in the history of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussalini's Italian Empire, and the Empire of Japan and their goals for world conquest.
Sara Jevo
06-Jun-10, 22:21
So much has changed and clouded the minds of people in the US of America (and the world) that I have forgotten why we fought that great WW2 so many years ago. I believe the US of A and Great Britain have, in general, forgotten why that war was fought. When we were fighting that great war I thought it was to preserve freedom. So many things have happened since then I believe younger people who have come along don't have any idea why that war was fought. It appears that no one believes in the history of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussalini's Italian Empire, and the Empire of Japan and their goals for world conquest.
It's just that . . . history. The world is a different place today.
So much has changed and clouded the minds of people in the US of America (and the world) that I have forgotten why we fought that great WW2 so many years ago. I believe the US of A and Great Britain have, in general, forgotten why that war was fought. When we were fighting that great war I thought it was to preserve freedom. So many things have happened since then I believe younger people who have come along don't have any idea why that war was fought. It appears that no one believes in the history of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussalini's Italian Empire, and the Empire of Japan and their goals for world conquest.
that just depends Oldmarine, I have children and all my brothers have children too. We always make a point of going to the cenotaph on Armistice Day every year. As it says on all our cenotaphs The Glorious Dead Lest We Forget
I certainly have no intention of letting them forget and I hope they do the same for their children
It's just that . . . history. The world is a different place today.
It is a very different world now. Without the sacrifice of people like Oldmarine, I seriously doubt it would be a place I would like to live or who knows, even have the opportunity to.
It's just that . . . history. The world is a different place today.
The world may be a different place but history is still the same.
Its always good to see oldmarine on the org. He represents something very special in the minds of those of us of a particular age. It would be awful if the whippersnappers were given a free hand to redefine history to suit their own particular prejudices.
It's just that . . . history. The world is a different place today.
What a silly crass statement that is!!
There are still people living who have had their lives shattered by WW2. unbelievable really makes my blood boil.
And even if it is your so called HISTORY we are suppose to learn from it
So much has changed and clouded the minds of people in the US of America (and the world) that I have forgotten why we fought that great WW2 so many years ago. I believe the US of A and Great Britain have, in general, forgotten why that war was fought. When we were fighting that great war I thought it was to preserve freedom. So many things have happened since then I believe younger people who have come along don't have any idea why that war was fought. It appears that no one believes in the history of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussalini's Italian Empire, and the Empire of Japan and their goals for world conquest.
There was nothing great about WWII, it was one of the lowest points in human depravity.
There is nothing great about the American government's attempts to dominate the world either.
So much has changed and clouded the minds of people in the US of America (and the world) that I have forgotten why we fought that great WW2 so many years ago. I believe the US of A and Great Britain have, in general, forgotten why that war was fought. When we were fighting that great war I thought it was to preserve freedom. So many things have happened since then I believe younger people who have come along don't have any idea why that war was fought. It appears that no one believes in the history of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussalini's Italian Empire, and the Empire of Japan and their goals for world conquest.
I remember what you and your fellow combatants went through for our freedom Oldmarine. And I shall never forget it.
Thank you.
You really are a nasty piece of work Fred you have no respect at all.
You are only interested in filling this forum with your Marxist view points along with a few others.
You give the County a bad name and Oldmarine Im sorry you have had to read 2 of the most ignorant post I have ever seen.
For that reason I am signing off the Org not to come back as I dont want a part of a forum expressing insulting views
Metalattakk
06-Jun-10, 22:45
There was nothing great about WWII, it was one of the lowest points in human depravity.
There is nothing great about the American government's attempts to dominate the world either.
great adj (greater, greatest) 1 outstandingly talented and much admired and respected. 2 very large in size, quantity, intensity or extent.Ignoramus.
You really are a nasty piece of work Fred you have no respect at all.
You are only interested in filling this forum with your Marxist view points along with a few others.
You give the County a bad name and Oldmarine Im sorry you have had to read 2 of the most ignorant post I have ever seen.
For that reason I am signing off the Org not to come back as I dont want a part of a forum expressing insulting views
Sixty million people killed.
You might think that's great, I don't.
northener
06-Jun-10, 22:56
Sixty million people killed.
You might think that's great, I don't.
Given the time of night, Fred, I sincerely hope you've had a drink and haven't picked up on Oldmarines' use of the word 'great'.
Ignoramus.
Sometimes it only takes one word.
Sixty million people killed.
You might think that's great, I don't.
But the side that did the vast majority of that killing was defeated. Result!
But the side that did the vast majority of that killing was defeated. Result!
Side?
There are no sides, do you mean Germany? Germany are our friends aren't they? Our partners in the European Union. Do you mean Japan? They're our friends aren't they?
There is only humanity and for six years we decided to slaughter each other.
Side?
There are no sides, do you mean Germany? Germany are our friends aren't they? Our partners in the European Union. Do you mean Japan? They're our friends aren't they?
There is only humanity and for six years we decided to slaughter each other.
They are our friends but when WW2 was ongoing they weren't the friends of many... I actually find your posts on this quite distateful. The German's committed genocide during WW2 - with a new government they are our friends but just a generation ago it was very much a different story.
were you there fred? did you bleed and or watch your brothers in arms bleed and die?
did someone you love go off to fight in that Great Big War and not come home? if not then you have absolutly no right to spout utter rubbish. we did not start the war. no one up and said one day.. ohhhh i fancy a bit of murder and mayham.. lets invade and kill everyone not like us or dosent think like us.. they are dif. there for bad.
oh wait.. thats what hitler did.. darn it.. silly man.. he must have been bored that day.
why did we join in the fight?
one thing that always stuck with me.. even though i wasnt there.. i didnt loose any one.. but in school as a child we read the diary of anne frank.
its for children like her that the world stood up and said no.. this is wrong.
20 years later and i can still remember the words i read as a 13 year old for english class.. and my teacher telling us.. that we were the luckiest kids in the world.
that we were gifted to live in a time of peace and prosperity.. to relish it and be thankful for it as it was one of the longest times of peace we have known.
that one day we would be at war again and everything we knew could change in an instant.
funnily enough that stuck with me, mankind is not a peacful race.
there will always be war, and hopefully there will always be those willing to fight the good fight.. that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
polotics aside..
when your country comes under fire, and your family is in danger.. and belive me women and children are so much cannon fodder.. the majority of men and women will stand and fight. they will lay down thier lives to save their homes and way of life. to fight for their freedom. feel free to twist that any way you wish, on how we are imposing our rule on others and what not. but as far as i know.. we are not killing people by the thousands, putting them into concentration camps and trying to destroy whole peoples because of their race.
in time of war people change and become something that they would not noramlly be. its not nice, its ugly and blood lust is real.
ive known many soldiers in my time.
some very well.. and living with what they did in times of war is something that they struggle with every day.. not because they wanted to but because they had no choice.
so unless youve been there and done it.. you have no room to rant and rave about something you know nothing about.
were you there fred? did you bleed and or watch your brothers in arms bleed and die?
did someone you love go off to fight in that Great Big War and not come home? if not then you have absolutly no right to spout utter rubbish. we did not start the war. no one up and said one day.. ohhhh i fancy a bit of murder and mayham.. lets invade and kill everyone not like us or dosent think like us.. they are dif. there for bad.
oh wait.. thats what hitler did.. darn it.. silly man.. he must have been bored that day.
why did we join in the fight?
one thing that always stuck with me.. even though i wasnt there.. i didnt loose any one.. but in school as a child we read the diary of anne frank.
its for children like her that the world stood up and said no.. this is wrong.
20 years later and i can still remember the words i read as a 13 year old for english class.. and my teacher telling us.. that we were the luckiest kids in the world.
that we were gifted to live in a time of peace and prosperity.. to relish it and be thankful for it as it was one of the longest times of peace we have known.
that one day we would be at war again and everything we knew could change in an instant.
funnily enough that stuck with me, mankind is not a peacful race.
there will always be war, and hopefully there will always be those willing to fight the good fight.. that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
polotics aside..
when your country comes under fire, and your family is in danger.. and belive me women and children are so much cannon fodder.. the majority of men and women will stand and fight. they will lay down thier lives to save their homes and way of life. to fight for their freedom. feel free to twist that any way you wish, on how we are imposing our rule on others and what not. but as far as i know.. we are not killing people by the thousands, putting them into concentration camps and trying to destroy whole peoples because of their race.
in time of war people change and become something that they would not noramlly be. its not nice, its ugly and blood lust is real.
ive known many soldiers in my time.
some very well.. and living with what they did in times of war is something that they struggle with every day.. not because they wanted to but because they had no choice.
so unless youve been there and done it.. you have no room to rant and rave about something you know nothing about.
Brandy I wanted to give you rep for that but it won't let me - I have to spread it first. So I'll give you a public pat on the back instead. That was a lovely thing to read - thankyou.
So much has changed and clouded the minds of people in the US of America (and the world) that I have forgotten why we fought that great WW2 so many years ago. I believe the US of A and Great Britain have, in general, forgotten why that war was fought. When we were fighting that great war I thought it was to preserve freedom. So many things have happened since then I believe younger people who have come along don't have any idea why that war was fought. It appears that no one believes in the history of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussalini's Italian Empire, and the Empire of Japan and their goals for world conquest.
I apologise to you and your fellow countrymen, for having to see the bigoted rhetoric that this person called fred has posted, I respect all you did, and am glad for it, otherwise I would be typing this in German!!!
It's just that . . . history. The world is a different place today.
It is a very different world now. Without the sacrifice of people like Oldmarine, I seriously doubt it would be a place I would like to live or who knows, even have the opportunity to.
The world is a very different place but it is all the sadder for people like fred being able to peddle their warped views on forums like this!
Boozeburglar
07-Jun-10, 01:44
the ever expanding nature of the universe
I am quite interested to know how the universe could possibly be expanding.
Boozeburglar
07-Jun-10, 02:05
So much has changed and clouded the minds of people in the US of America (and the world) that I have forgotten why we fought that great WW2 so many years ago. I believe the US of A and Great Britain have, in general, forgotten why that war was fought. When we were fighting that great war I thought it was to preserve freedom. So many things have happened since then I believe younger people who have come along don't have any idea why that war was fought. It appears that no one believes in the history of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussalini's Italian Empire, and the Empire of Japan and their goals for world conquest.
Great post. What was done in the name of freedom shall not be forgotten. Pity the fools who are so blind they cannot learn from those involved.
oldmarine
07-Jun-10, 05:37
You really are a nasty piece of work Fred you have no respect at all.
You are only interested in filling this forum with your Marxist view points along with a few others.
You give the County a bad name and Oldmarine Im sorry you have had to read 2 of the most ignorant post I have ever seen.
For that reason I am signing off the Org not to come back as I dont want a part of a forum expressing insulting views
Don't let negative comments like these drive you off the Org. There are too many good sensible posters on the Org. Don't let a couple bad ones drive you off. I have seen too many good posters fall by the wayside due to the nonsense you have mentioned above. There are people who have different opinions. Most posters recognize them for what they are, ignore them and move on.
oldmarine
07-Jun-10, 05:49
So much has changed and clouded the minds of people in the US of America (and the world) that I have forgotten why we fought that great WW2 so many years ago. I believe the US of A and Great Britain have, in general, forgotten why that war was fought. When we were fighting that great war I thought it was to preserve freedom. So many things have happened since then I believe younger people who have come along don't have any idea why that war was fought. It appears that no one believes in the history of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussalini's Italian Empire, and the Empire of Japan and their goals for world conquest.
Perhaps the word 'great' was a poor one to use. What I meant to imply was that it was a large war (world wide) and that's why I used the word 'great.' There truly wasn't anything great about so many lives being lost - particularly innoscent lives.
I am quite interested to know how the universe could possibly be expanding.
Physics 101.
Crackeday
07-Jun-10, 05:53
The org is fast becoming Anti-this, Anti that.
Its getting quite sad that the World wars were all in the name of freedom, but some are using their freedom to peddle hatred against the very countries and people who gave them their freedom.
Shameful really maybe they should go join their foreign "brethern" and see how much freedom they would really have?
Never been anti-american after all they are our allies. there not perfect but neither is ANY country, we all have flaws its just some like to attack the US or her allies at every opportunity.
The only countries I am really worried about is Iran and Pakistan,Iran due to their dictator trying to build bombs to nuke Israel,and Pakistan because they have the capability and is overrun in certain areas by Taliban who will stop at nothing to get hold of the "button".
Crackeday
07-Jun-10, 05:55
Someone mentioned that Tariq Ali was considered anti-American on another thread. He was considered anti American for opposing their support for a military dictatorship in Pakistan.
Would you say that being opposed to military dictatorships is un American? It just stuck me as odd that most Americans would say America stands for freedom and democracy yet someone opposed to a military dictatorship was branded anti American.
I would have brought it up on the other thread but it isn't really what the thread was about.
The other thread was about Israel but it didnt stop you bringing Iran into it constantly!!!! (Its a press Tv thing)[lol]
Sara Jevo
07-Jun-10, 06:58
What a silly crass statement that is!!
There are still people living who have had their lives shattered by WW2. unbelievable really makes my blood boil.
And even if it is your so called HISTORY we are suppose to learn from it
I'm sorry you feel offended by that.
Of course it's effect continues to be felt directly by those of a certain generation. It wasn't intended to dismiss that.
But, in the context of what's happening in the world today, it is history, just as World War One is history, the Napoleonic War is history, the Boer War is history..
The geo-political map has changed out of all recognition since the end of the Cold War, never mind WW2. The Cold War is history, too.
Sadly, it seems we haven't learned from history. Countless numbers - both military and civilian - continue to die today.
Boozeburglar
07-Jun-10, 07:33
Physics 101.
Really? Can you expound?
The org is fast becoming Anti-this, Anti that.
Its getting quite sad that the World wars were all in the name of freedom, but some are using their freedom to peddle hatred against the very countries and people who gave them their freedom.
Shameful really maybe they should go join their foreign "brethern" and see how much freedom they would really have?
Never been anti-american after all they are our allies. there not perfect but neither is ANY country, we all have flaws its just some like to attack the US or her allies at every opportunity.
The only countries I am really worried about is Iran and Pakistan,Iran due to their dictator trying to build bombs to nuke Israel,and Pakistan because they have the capability and is overrun in certain areas by Taliban who will stop at nothing to get hold of the "button".
Were the people of Germany in the mid 20th century not free? I've seen the newsreels and they certainly look free and very happy with their lot. They worshipped Hitler because he gave them their freedom, gave them back their self respect, they had effectively been slaves to the countries which beat them in WWI, another low point in human depravity. I wouldn't mind betting if you had asked a German soldier in WWII what he was fighting for he would probably have told you he was fighting for freedom.
Were the people of Japan not free? They worshipped their Emperor as a God and were happy to do so, if you asked a Japanese soldier in WWII what he was fighting for he would have told you he was fighting for freedom, America was taking their freedom away from them, sending ships and soldiers across the sea to steal the oil and natural resources which were rightly theirs.
So where is this freedom we fought for when we are keeping a million and a half people in an open air prison called Gaza? Depriving them of the basic necessities of life depriving them of a country, depriving them even of their self respect, is that the sort of freedom we fought for in WWII?
So you fear Iran a country which has not attacked another in a hundred years and more. Tell an Iranian you fear them and they will point to the west to Iraq the country we are devastating, they will point to the east to Afghanistan, another country we are devastating and they will laugh in your face, they will wonder what we are putting in the water in Britain which makes the people hallucinate. Tell them we are fighting for freedom and they will point at Gaza and tell you if that's the sort of freedom we believe in we can keep it.
Really? Can you expound?
Expansion of the universe is dealt with in basic Physics. But then as this is not verifiable by your own personal experience and because all the scientists/ physicists are in a a huge global conspiracy to delude the general population, you are right that the Universe probably isn't expanding.
Crackeday
07-Jun-10, 10:53
So where is this freedom we fought for when we are keeping a million and a half people in an open air prison called Gaza? Depriving them of the basic necessities of life depriving them of a country, depriving them even of their self respect, is that the sort of freedom we fought for in WWII?
So you fear Iran a country which has not attacked another in a hundred years and more. Tell an Iranian you fear them and they will point to the west to Iraq the country we are devastating, they will point to the east to Afghanistan, another country we are devastating and they will laugh in your face, they will wonder what we are putting in the water in Britain which makes the people hallucinate. Tell them we are fighting for freedom and they will point at Gaza and tell you if that's the sort of freedom we believe in we can keep it.
You really do seem to have a thing about Israel,its blatantly obvious you do.
You started this thread about Anti-Americanism but still manage to wind it back To Your 3 favourite subjects................Israel,Iran and YOU!!!!:lol:
You really do seem to have a thing about Israel,its blatantly obvious you do.
You started this thread about Anti-Americanism but still manage to wind it back To Your 3 favourite subjects................Israel,Iran and YOU!!!!:lol:
You were the one who brought Iran into the thread in post #50.
I hadn't mentioned Iran at all till then.
You still haven't explained why you consider a country which hasn't attacked anyone in over a hundred years to be a threat.
Boozeburglar
07-Jun-10, 11:28
Expansion of the universe is dealt with in basic Physics. But then as this is not verifiable by your own personal experience and because all the scientists/ physicists are in a a huge global conspiracy to delude the general population, you are right that the Universe probably isn't expanding.
You seem to have me confused with the conspiracy theorists.
Would it be possible for you to explain what you mean rather than make lazy assumptions?
annthracks
07-Jun-10, 11:28
We have the same or similar less than honest operators in our banking and financial systems.
leasom (sp?) yep, but the recent world wide crash was, I believe, caused by the American Sub Prime lending
We have the same or similar new draconian legislation in the name of combating terrorism.
I think we're just following the yanks on this one
The problem is we the people believe in democracy and yet there are those in government who are working to deny us this.
Then rioting on the streets and rivers of blood will follow...
On a side note, some questions if someone could answer them (perhaps one of our more mature personages...Northerner, Fred ? ) :
Have we murdered US troops in the name of "friendly" fire?
Why did the Japanese bomb pearl harbour?
and when you've answered that,
Is it because the US would have had no other reason to "join" the war, and help the rich get richer?
thanks.
Don't let negative comments like these drive you off the Org. There are too many good sensible posters on the Org. Don't let a couple bad ones drive you off. I have seen too many good posters fall by the wayside due to the nonsense you have mentioned above. There are people who have different opinions. Most posters recognize them for what they are, ignore them and move on.
The problem is though that too many good threads die or turn into blood baths. Without the debate where's the fun?
So you fear Iran a country which has not attacked another in a hundred years and more. .
Oh come on Fred lets not be pedantic, but don't you remember what you wrote?
24-Oct-07, 12:57: "Iran has never started a war in 2,000 years"
Swiftly followed by:
24-Oct-07, 23:00: "Sorry, should have been 200 years"
So what is it? :confused
You seem to have me confused with the conspiracy theorists.
Would it be possible for you to explain what you mean rather than make lazy assumptions?
Physics 101=basic physics. There was the big bang and ever since the universe has been expanding. I assumed you knew what "101" adjacent to any subject matter meant. It is the foundation module of any given subject.
Were the people of Germany in the mid 20th century not free? I've seen the newsreels and they certainly look free and very happy with their lot. They worshipped Hitler because he gave them their freedom, gave them back their self respect, they had effectively been slaves to the countries which beat them in WWI, another low point in human depravity. I wouldn't mind betting if you had asked a German soldier in WWII what he was fighting for he would probably have told you he was fighting for freedom.
Were the people of Japan not free? They worshipped their Emperor as a God and were happy to do so, if you asked a Japanese soldier in WWII what he was fighting for he would have told you he was fighting for freedom, America was taking their freedom away from them, sending ships and soldiers across the sea to steal the oil and natural resources which were rightly theirs.
So where is this freedom we fought for when we are keeping a million and a half people in an open air prison called Gaza? Depriving them of the basic necessities of life depriving them of a country, depriving them even of their self respect, is that the sort of freedom we fought for in WWII?
So you fear Iran a country which has not attacked another in a hundred years and more. Tell an Iranian you fear them and they will point to the west to Iraq the country we are devastating, they will point to the east to Afghanistan, another country we are devastating and they will laugh in your face, they will wonder what we are putting in the water in Britain which makes the people hallucinate. Tell them we are fighting for freedom and they will point at Gaza and tell you if that's the sort of freedom we believe in we can keep it.
I had been following this thread with interest from the beginning. I even posted a contribution.
I have to pick up on fred’s diatribe (#54) about freedom and correct a few of his misconceptions.
I accept that it could be argued that WW2 started in 1921 with the Treaty of Versailles and the imposition of draconian retribution upon Germany. However in the 1930’s not all the people of Germany were free. The newsreels you see were part of the Nazi propaganda machinery. If you had socialist leanings, was part of the academic intelligentsia, if you were Jewish, if you had any criticism of ‘national socialism’ you would be marginalized, beaten and even killed. Many German people lived in fear.
The people of the Empire of Japan weren’t free. Japan was to a large extent still a feudal society. The Empire had invaded Korea and Manchuria in the early 1930’s so many young Japanese men where conscripted and brutalised in the name of the Emperor and his government’s plans for expansion and the sequestration of those country’s assets and resources.
Gaza has many complex problems and while Israel/USA/’the west’ can be blamed for many of them, Palestinian politics is a minefield of their own making. There are dozens of factions vying for power with loyalties constantly changing. It is difficult but many NGOs are trying to get aid into Gaza without the said aid being used as a political pawn by either Israel or the plethora of Palestinian groups. Its ironic that most of the aid for Palestine comes from Israel, the USA and ’the west.’
Iran has some legitimate concerns, not least as a result of the West’s support of Iraq during its eight year war with that country. However the significant number of refugees from that country and the recent demonstrations against the questionable elections held there, indicate that not all Iranians are happy with their government and its policies.
Finally fred I ask you to consider this – if you were a resident national in any of these countries’s you imply you support, do you really think the government or its agencies would allow you to be so dogmatic and persistent in your criticism of the administration? I don’t think so.
You can do so in this country and on this forum only because of those who fought for your freedom to do so.
Why did the Japanese bomb pearl harbour?
and when you've answered that,
Is it because the US would have had no other reason to "join" the war, and help the rich get richer?
thanks.
The Japanese wanted to be an industrial nation but they didn't have the natural resources so they decided to do what everyone else does and go and steal somebody else's. After France was invaded by Germany they decided they could move into French Indochina and there wasn't much France could do about it. America retaliated by cutting off Japan's oil supply, Japan couldn't survive without oil so they decided to invade the Ditch East Indies and get their own oil but they knew America would use their Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbour to stop them. Japan would also have to take the Philippines which had already been occupied by America. The only way Japan could get oil was to put the American navy out of action for long enough for them to take the Dutch East Indies.
annthracks
07-Jun-10, 14:30
Thanks for that fred.
I realise you meant Dutch :)
I had been following this thread with interest from the beginning. I even posted a contribution.
I have to pick up on fred’s diatribe (#54) about freedom and correct a few of his misconceptions.
I accept that it could be argued that WW2 started in 1921 with the Treaty of Versailles and the imposition of draconian retribution upon Germany. However in the 1930’s not all the people of Germany were free. The newsreels you see were part of the Nazi propaganda machinery. If you had socialist leanings, was part of the academic intelligentsia, if you were Jewish, if you had any criticism of ‘national socialism’ you would be marginalized, beaten and even killed. Many German people lived in fear.
So what do you think would have happened to anyone even suspected of being a Communist in 1950s America? Or anyone supporting the Irish Republicans in Britain in the 1980s when they could not even speak on British radio? Isn't America using unmanned drones for the extra-judicial assassination of anyone who opposes them in Pakistan today? Don't you think the children in Gaza who saw their families killed last year live in fear as they hear the Israeli jets roar overhead each night?
On this forum aren't those who oppose Zionism labelled anti Semitic and woe betide anyone even suspected of supporting the German National Socialists. Are there not things we still can not say?
The Japanese wanted to be an industrial nation but they didn't have the natural resources so they decided to do what everyone else does and go and steal somebody else's. After France was invaded by Germany they decided they could move into French Indochina and there wasn't much France could do about it. America retaliated by cutting off Japan's oil supply, Japan couldn't survive without oil so they decided to invade the Ditch East Indies and get their own oil but they knew America would use their Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbour to stop them. Japan would also have to take the Philippines which had already been occupied by America. The only way Japan could get oil was to put the American navy out of action for long enough for them to take the Dutch East Indies.
If your version is so accurate, why did the Japanese invade China in 1931
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=59&catid=2
Mancuria invaded also 1931
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/china/JapanManchuria.html
And finally Malaya on the 8th of December 1941, the day after Pearl Harbour was attacked.
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=47
I see you make no mention of that piece of history, Japan had all the resources of those oil bearing countries before they ever attacked Pearl Harbour without a proper declaration of War.
Was the Obama Administration involved in the Planning of the Israeli Attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla?
The Broader Military Agenda
by Michel Chossudovsky
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20100606&articleId=19573http://www.globalresearch.ca/coverStoryPictures/19573.jpgGlobal Research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/), June 6, 2010
[/URL]
The Israeli Navy Commando had prior knowledge of who was on the Turkish ship including where passengers were residing in terms of cabin layout. According to Swedish author Henning Mankell, who was on board the Marmara , "the Israeli forces attacked sleeping civilians."
These were targeted assassinations. Specific individuals were targeted. Journalists were targeted with a view to confiscating their audio and video recording equipment and tapes.
"We were witnesses to premeditated murders," said historian Mattias Gardell who was on the Mavi Marmara.
"...Asked about why activists on the Turkish ship had attacked the Israeli soldiers, Gardell stressed "it is not as if Israel is a police officer whom no human being has the legitimate right to defend him or herself against":
"If you are attacked by commando troops you of course must have the right to defend yourself ... Many people on this ship thought they were going to kill everyone. They were very frightened ... It's strange if people think one should not defend oneself. Should you just sit there and say: 'Kill me'?" he said." (See Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, [URL="http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19519"]Detailed Compiled Eyewitness Accounts Confirm Cold-Blooded Murder and Executions by Israeli Military (http://www.stumbleupon.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalresearch.ca%2Fin dex.php%3Fcontext%3DviewArticle%26code%3DCHO201006 06%26articleId%3D19573), Global Research, June 1, 2010)
“They even shot those who surrendered. Many of our friends saw this. They told me that there were handcuffed people who were shot,” (quoted by Press TV (http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129190§ionid=351020202))
(http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129190§ionid=351020202)
The Israeli Commando had an explicit order to kill.
What was the role of the United States?
The raids on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, bear the mark of previous Israeli operations directed against unarmed civilians. It is a well established modus operandi of Israeli military-intelligence operations, which is tacitly supported by the US administration.
The killing of civilians is intended to trigger a response by Palestinian resistance forces, which in turn justifies Israeli retaliation (on "humanitarian" grounds) as well as a process of military escalation. The logic of this process was contained in Ariel Sharon`s "Operation Justified Vengeance" (also referred to as the "Dagan Plan") initiated at the outset the Sharon government in 2001. This Operation was intent upon destroying the Palestinian Authority and transforming Gaza into an urban prison. (See Michel Chossudovsky, "Operation Justified Vengeance": Israeli Strike on Freedom Flotilla to Gaza is Part of a Broader Military Agenda (http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19447), Global Research, June 1, 2010).
The Israeli attack on the Flotilla bears the fingerprints of a military intelligence operation coordinated by the IDF and Mossad, which is now headed by Meir Dagan. It is worth recalling that as a young Coronel, Dagan worked closely with then defense minister Ariel Sharon in the raids on the Palestinian settlements of Sabra and Shatilla in Beirut in 1982.
There are indications that the US was consulted at the highest levels regarding the nature of this military operation. Moreover, in the wake of the attacks, both the US and the UK have unequivocally reaffirmed their support to Israel.
There are longstanding and ongoing military and intelligence relations between the US and Israel including close working ties between various agencies of government: Pentagon, National Intelligence Council, State Department, Homeland Security and their respective Israeli counterparts.
These various agencies of government are involved in routine liaison and consultations, usually directly as well as through the US Embassy in Israel, involving frequent shuttles of officials between Washington and Tel Aviv as well as exchange of personnel. Moreover, the US as well as Canada have public security cooperation agreements with Israel pertaining to the policing of international borders, including maritime borders. (See Israel-USA Homeland Security Cooperation (http://www.mops.gov.il/BPEng/OnTheAgenda/Israel-USAcollaboration), See also Michel Chossudovsky, The Canada-Israel "Public Security" Agreement (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8530), Global Research, 2 April 2008)
The Role of Rahm Emmanuel
Several high level US-Israel meetings were held in the months prior to the May 31st attacks.
Rahm Emmanuel, Obama's White House chief of Staff was in Tel Aviv a week prior to the attacks. Confirmed by press reports, he had meetings behind closed doors with Prime Minister Netanyahu (May 26) as well as a private visit with President Shimon Peres on May 27.
The Issue of Territorial Waters
Israel's blockade of Gaza is in large part motivated by the broader issue of control of Gaza's territorial waters, which contain significant reserves of natural gas. What is at stake is the confiscation of Palestinian gas fields and the unilateral de facto declaration of Israeli sovereignty over Gaza's maritime areas. If the blockade were to be broken, Israel's de facto control over Gaza's offshore gas reserves would be jeopardy. (See Michel Chossudovsky,War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields (http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680), Global Research, January 8, 2009. See also Michel Chossudovsky, The War on Lebanon and the Battle for Oil, (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2824)Global Research, July 23, 2006)
annthracks
07-Jun-10, 15:18
If your version is so accurate, why did the Japanese invade China in 1931
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=59&catid=2
Mancuria invaded also 1931
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/china/JapanManchuria.html
And finally Malaya on the 8th of December 1941, the day after Pearl Harbour was attacked.
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=47
I see you make no mention of that piece of history, Japan had all the resources of those oil bearing countries before they ever attacked Pearl Harbour without a proper declaration of War.
It's because the American government goaded, pushed and prodded the Japanese into taking action so that they (the American people) would WANT to join the war, and give the people in power an EXCUSE to join the war.
but history is written by the victors, so you won't see any American history referring to FDR's tactics of the time
Boozeburglar
07-Jun-10, 16:49
Expansion of the universe is dealt with in basic Physics. But then as this is not verifiable by your own personal experience and because all the scientists/ physicists are in a a huge global conspiracy to delude the general population, you are right that the Universe probably isn't expanding.
I will just quote the post I am interested in again, so you know that what I would like explained is what you mean when you say the universe is expanding.
Specifically your understanding of what constitutes the universe; and how you conceive of such expanding.
So what do you think would have happened to anyone even suspected of being a Communist in 1950s America? Or anyone supporting the Irish Republicans in Britain in the 1980s when they could not even speak on British radio? Isn't America using unmanned drones for the extra-judicial assassination of anyone who opposes them in Pakistan today? Don't you think the children in Gaza who saw their families killed last year live in fear as they hear the Israeli jets roar overhead each night?
On this forum aren't those who oppose Zionism labelled anti Semitic and woe betide anyone even suspected of supporting the German National Socialists. Are there not things we still can not say?
What is your point fred?
IMO you're scrabbling around introducing anything and everything to justify your dogmatic but nebulous arguments. Now you’ve brought in MacArthurism, Irish Republicanism, Pakistani dissidents and Zionism!
Communism, Zionism, German National Socialism and Irish Republicism might not be popular but they do have their supporters and they are still allowed to argue their points - because they have the freedom to do so!
At the end of the day no government is perfect but in the USA, Britain and many other countires in 'the west' there are 'checks and balances' within the administration to counter most excesses.
Many other countries, particularly those in the Middle East and Asia there are no such systems and their ruling parties make many people's lives miserable.
It's because the American government goaded, pushed and prodded the Japanese into taking action so that they (the American people) would WANT to join the war, and give the people in power an EXCUSE to join the war.
but history is written by the victors, so you won't see any American history referring to FDR's tactics of the time
There are always at least two sides to every story/debate/arguement.
The Empire of Japan was in the ascendency, its forces expanding through Manchuria into China. The USA feared Japan’s growing strength because it deduced that Japan would attempt to dominate the Pacific basin. If that happened Roosevelt’s advisors believed that within two years Japan would be threatening the American west coast.
Roosevelt’s decided to stop selling oil, steel and other materials to Japan.
Meanwhile the Japanese advanced through Malaya to take Singapore.
A result of the American trade embargo was to lead the Japanese government into believing their country would be attacked within a few months to halt its further excursions. Japan decided to strike first.
OK peeps I’ve had enough of this subject. :eek:
I’ve tried to point out that there is more than just one perspective on any event in history.
Love ‘em or hate ‘em the Americans are here to stay. You might not like what their government does but then there are a lot of Americans don’t like what they do either.
I’ve worked and socialised with many Americans over the years and can honestly say I’ve found them to be good people with the sort of optimism that we could do with over here.
Boozeburglar
07-Jun-10, 19:13
Expansion of the universe is dealt with in basic Physics. But then as this is not verifiable by your own personal experience and because all the scientists/ physicists are in a a huge global conspiracy to delude the general population, you are right that the Universe probably isn't expanding.
I will just quote the post I am interested in again, so you know that what I would like explained is what you mean when you say the universe is expanding.
Specifically your understanding of what constitutes the universe; and how you conceive of such expanding.
Your P.M. does not help, I am asking you what you mean when you say universe.
Once you have given me that information, we may not need to go further.
oldmarine
07-Jun-10, 19:25
There was nothing great about WWII, it was one of the lowest points in human depravity.
There is nothing great about the American government's attempts to dominate the world either.
Fred: I have to agree with you on both points. WW2 turned out to be a low (or high?) point in human tragedy, but you have to remember the axis powers started it all. Churchill and Roosevelt had no choice except to try and stop it which they did.
I agree with you that USA should quit trying to police the world. It's too big of a job for one country to do by itself although Great Britain appears to agree and have been trying to go along with the USA on shutting down the countries (or at least the people who destroyed the twin towers & the Pentagon where many children and adult lives were destroyed). I don't have the answers but then I don't believe you do either. If you have a better solution, you should mention it rather than run down other people with your negative comments.
I believe you are the same person (under a different name) who accused me of destroying many Japanese lives when the two A-Bombs were dropped on the Japanese Empire. That did force Emperor Hirohita to call off the war against the USA. I wish to inform you that I was not in high enough position to order dropping those 2 A-bombs, but history proved that it was a worth-while effort. My comrades who viewed the fortified positions of old men, women & children who would have defended against an assult on the Japanese main islands verified that as many as 2-1/2 million people lives on both sides would have been lost. It not that many at least a large number of lives.
oldmarine
07-Jun-10, 19:43
Some posters on this thread have mentioned that citizens of the USA wanted to go to war. That is not true. The majority of citizens of the USA were isolationists and did not want war. The attack on Pearl Harbor drove most citizens into retaliation even though there were some who still did not want to go to war.
The comment by the Japanese Admiral who ordered the attack on Pearl Harbor stated "I'm afraid we have awakened a sleeping giant". That's exactly what happened. The USA became a stronger developed nation (even stronger than Great Britain).
As a result the USA has become a target of those who would like to destroy us, in particular, the Islamic Muslims (and others) who immigrated to the USA and ahve been trying to destroy us from within.
I have spent much time in Great Britain and I have discovered the USA has many friends there and want to help us as much as possible. For that I am very grateful. I believe we need all the help we can get.
Fred: I have to agree with you on both points. WW2 turned out to be a low (or high?) point in human tragedy, but you have to remember the axis powers started it all. Churchill and Roosevelt had no choice except to try and stop it which they did.
I agree with you that USA should quit trying to police the world. It's too big of a job for one country to do by itself although Great Britain appears to agree and have been trying to go along with the USA on shutting down the countries (or at least the people who destroyed the twin towers & the Pentagon where many children and adult lives were destroyed). I don't have the answers but then I don't believe you do either. If you have a better solution, you should mention it rather than run down other people with your negative comments.
I believe you are the same person (under a different name) who accused me of destroying many Japanese lives when the two A-Bombs were dropped on the Japanese Empire. That did force Emperor Hirohita to call off the war against the USA. I wish to inform you that I was not in high enough position to order dropping those 2 A-bombs, but history proved that it was a worth-while effort. My comrades who viewed the fortified positions of old men, women & children who would have defended against an assult on the Japanese main islands verified that as many as 2-1/2 million people lives on both sides would have been lost. It not that many at least a large number of lives.
No, I don't think the Axis powers were the only ones to blame, I think they were only trying to do what Britain and America had been doing for a long time. How did French Indochina become French? How did the Dutch East Indies become Dutch?
Yes I do have a solution for 9/11, that is to hold a full and impartial investigation, including all the evidence which hasn't been destroyed, with those in power at the time testifying under oath and answering all the questions. There is a lot more evidence linking Saudi Arabia and Israel to 9/11 than there is Afghanistan.
I have never posted here under a different name.
You might not like what their government does but then there are a lot of Americans don’t like what they do either.
I’ve worked and socialised with many Americans over the years and can honestly say I’ve found them to be good people with the sort of optimism that we could do with over here.
to be sure, i know this to be true
but i dont know any who have joined up for the military
Your P.M. does not help, I am asking you what you mean when you say universe.
Once you have given me that information, we may not need to go further.
1-I choose to respond via e-mail, as an explanation of the expansion of the universe is not pertinent to the original post,
2-I did not mention expansion of the universe (go check, you questioned a post by Rich). I replied to your qery with a sardonic retort.
3-I have given you all the information I am going too to find out about the expansion of the universe. Use it or loose it. Either way, you aren't going anywhere close to my direction, so where do you think "we" were going? :lol:
Second thought. Never mind.;)
What is your point fred?
That maybe this freedom they speak of is an illusion. America calls themselves the land of the free, the people seem to believe they are the land of the free.
The statistics show they have the largest prison population in the world, how can this be?
northener
08-Jun-10, 09:46
That maybe this freedom they speak of is an illusion. America calls themselves the land of the free, the people seem to believe they are the land of the free.
The statistics show they have the largest prison population in the world, how can this be?
Regarding 'Freedom' - it can mean many things to many people. One mans' democracy is another mans opressive regime. Personally, I do not believe that the average US citizen is any more 'free' than any other citizen of any given Western-style democracy.
Regarding prison statistics, it could be argued that the incarceration of those who operate outside the law of any land is for the good of the democracy as a whole....
That maybe this freedom they speak of is an illusion. America calls themselves the land of the free, the people seem to believe they are the land of the free.
The statistics show they have the largest prison population in the world, how can this be?
That's right Fred. They talk about freedom and if I want to be really free the blighters will lock me up. Your right too about it being an illusion. Nothing is as it seems. I was looking up at the night sky early on Sunday morning and suddenly realised the reality of my position. I was standing on an enormous lump of rock with molten metal at its core, whizzing through the universe at 3000 miles per hour, in an easterly direction, apparently, and all I was thinking about was my heartburn and how quickly can I get some bicarbonite of soda down my throat. Every little bit of that scenario was an illusion and fantasy apart from the knowledge that I was there and experienced the illusion.
So, I agree. Its all an illusion.
Now, before the org collapses in chaos tell me how you would make things different and remove the illusion or perhaps change it to an ilusion of your own making?
I do think it's time you came up with some amswers.
Regarding 'Freedom' - it can mean many things to many people. One mans' democracy is another mans opressive regime. Personally, I do not believe that the average US citizen is any more 'free' than any other citizen of any given Western-style democracy.
Regarding prison statistics, it could be argued that the incarceration of those who operate outside the law of any land should be incarcerated for the good of the democracy as a whole....
Democracy? In a democracy all are equal, everyone has equal chance of being President. What are the chances in a country of 300,000,000 people of father and son both being President in the space of a few years?
Is it really a democracy or is that just an illusion too?
northener
08-Jun-10, 10:37
Democracy? In a democracy all are equal, everyone has equal chance of being President. What are the chances in a country of 300,000,000 people of father and son both being President in the space of a few years?
Is it really a democracy or is that just an illusion too?
Well, when daddies a President, it's easier to grease the political wheels. Look at the Kennedy family.
All 'democracy' is really an illusion in as much that no-one is ever going to be able to say 'all are equal'....
Orwell cliches aside, there must be a core of decision makers to enable large societies to move forward. Therefore, straight away, you have a group of people within a democracy who will wield more power than their fellow citizens.
We are group/herd animals, leaders will favour certain ones in the group, no-one will favour those who oppose them - even in a 'democracy'...the wheel turns again....
So I believe, Fred, that the answer is that there never has been - or will be - a 'true' democracy.
It is an illusion, or more accurately, a vision to aspire to.
Well, when daddies a President, it's easier to grease the political wheels. Look at the Kennedy family.
Well yes but in the case of George Bush he didn't even get more votes than the other feller, he lost the election but got made President anyway.
Orwell cliches aside, there must be a core of decision makers to enable large societies to move forward. Therefore, straight away, you have a group of people within a democracy who will wield more power than their fellow citizens.
You mean the Bilderberg Group?
oldmarine
09-Jun-10, 15:06
Fred, Why do you hate USA Americans so much? What have they done to you to make you bitter? You likewise sound bitter against your own country Great Britain. What have they done to you to make you so bitter. We are not in a perfect world, but I suggest you try to make the best of what you have and not be so bitter, if that is possible for you. Perhaps you need some good counseling to help you.
Fred, Why do you hate USA Americans so much? What have they done to you to make you bitter? You likewise sound bitter against your own country Great Britain. What have they done to you to make you so bitter. We are not in a perfect world, but I suggest you try to make the best of what you have and not be so bitter, if that is possible for you. Perhaps you need some good counseling to help you.
Like Fred I dislike the American foreigns affairs policy, that does not mean that I hate all Americans
As for "making the best of what we have got, " is that not just a selfish "I'm all right Jack" attitude
The world would be a far finer place if we tried to ensure, without military intervention, that we try and make it better for EVERYONE in the world,
Crackeday
09-Jun-10, 15:37
Like Fred I dislike the American foreigns affairs policy, that does not mean that I hate all Americans
As for "making the best of what we have got, " is that not just a selfish "I'm all right Jack" attitude
The world would be a far finer place if we tried to ensure, without military intervention, that we try and make it better for EVERYONE in the world,But nuke the ones we dont!!!!!
Boozeburglar
09-Jun-10, 15:41
As for "making the best of what we have got, " is that not just a selfish "I'm all right Jack" attitude
I think not.
The world would be a far finer place if we tried to ensure, without military intervention, that we try and make it better for EVERYONE in the world,
Hard to see how you could really make a change without the iron fist in the velvet glove throwing a punch now and then.
:)
But nuke the ones we dont!!!!!
With the Israeli nuclear weapons which were provided by.........................
I will let you complete the rest
Crackeday
09-Jun-10, 16:21
With the Israeli nuclear weapons which were provided by.........................
I will let you complete the rest
Who said anything about israel? are you and fred related!!!![lol]
I
But nuke the ones we dont!!!!!
Who said anything about israel? are you and fred related!!!!
I
By we, I was under the impression that you meant the nation that your signature flag depicts.
I apologise if Iwas mistaken
With the Israeli nuclear weapons which were provided by.........................
I will let you complete the rest
FRANCE
'Israel began investigating the nuclear field just one year after its 1948 founding and with French support secretly began building a nuclear reactor and reprocessing plant in the late 1950s. Although Israel first built a nuclear weapon in 1967-68.'
northener
09-Jun-10, 17:39
FRANCE
'Israel began investigating the nuclear field just one year after its 1948 founding and with French support secretly began building a nuclear reactor and reprocessing plant in the late 1950s. Although Israel first built a nuclear weapon in 1967-68.'
Pesky Frogs.
Two former CIA analysts wrote an article about the amount of military aid given to Israel by the USA which showed that since 1949 America has given some $101 Billion of aid to Israel, of which more than half ($53 Billion) has been military aid.
More here (http://www.counterpunch.org/christison03052009.html)
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