View Full Version : (Q) Who pays John Thurso's paper bill and TV licence (A) We all do
If I want to buy a paper, I have to pay for one out of my own pocket, simple as that.
Same with TV licence, every year the money comes out of my bank account.
But if you are called John Thurso/Sinclair etc you can get the rest of the country to buy them for you.
Mr Thurso , or should I say WE subscribe (on his behalf) on an annual basis to Northern Times, Ross-Shire Journal, Press & Journal and our own Caithness papers.
As all the address details on his claim forms have been blanked out we do not know where these papers are even going to. Is it his Caithness home or his London home (what happens when Parliament is not sitting, is he sure that they are being recycled into correct boxes)
But surely, I hear some of you thinking, Mr Thurso wants to keep abreast of all the things happening in his consticuency.
Then why did he pay the Scottish Liberal Democrats £1000 for the "Provision of Research & Briefing material on Highland Issues"
http://mpsallowances.parliament.uk/mpslordsandoffices/hocallowances/allowances-by-mp/john-thurso/John_Thurso_0607_IEP.pdf (page 97)
http://mpsallowances.parliament.uk/mpslordsandoffices/hocallowances/allowances-by-mp/john-thurso/John_Thurso_0708_IEP.pdf
Vote Thurso X tomorrow - you know it makes sense :)
Boozeburglar
05-May-10, 12:20
Can you point the ill informed to the candidates who don't pay for research and who don't claim for newspapers?
NickInTheNorth
05-May-10, 12:21
Anfield, you could at least make it clear that the year for which you have evidence of this gross abuse :roll: of the public purse is 2007!
changilass
05-May-10, 12:22
How many others get the same things paid? or would answering that question hide your obvious bias?
NickInTheNorth
05-May-10, 12:24
and do you know, he even had the cheek to buy ink cartridges for his printer, not just black, but cyan, magenta and yellow too!
I'd rather pay it for him than any of the others.
If that's the worst he's got we're damn lucky
telfordstar
05-May-10, 12:39
I'd rather pay it for him than any of the others.
If that's the worst he's got we're damn lucky
Very well said buffy! seems like were starting the nit picking, I for one will always give my vote for Mr Thurso he has helped me a great deal with a few things and for that he will get mine.
Tighsonas4
05-May-10, 12:46
it will take a lot more than john thursos papers to put this country back on its feet tony
John Little
05-May-10, 12:47
I keep wondering if one of these user names on this forum hide the identity of John Thurso. It would be logical that he would browse this forum.....
If He posts here, I wonder who he is........
NickInTheNorth
05-May-10, 12:49
Having read through the details of his expenses claim as provided by the OP the only things I would take issue with are the following :
Not paying his BT phone bill by direct debit and incurring an additional charge of £4.50 per bill (some people don't like to pay by direct debit, fair enough, but pay the £4.50 himself)
Using a Dell printer - for the cost of the toner purchased from Dell in the one year he could have bought an HP laser printer, then used 3rd party toner cartridges and saved a fortune.
I also don't like the fact that he has been using taxis at £110 a time, but I would guess that is to get to Inverness for flights to London, and given the appalling state of public transport I don't think that there is much alternative. However it would be good to see our MP taking a lead on that and trying to get an improved rail / bus service with a bit of joined up thinking thrown in, maybe some bus / air linkage to allow people to get a coach from Caithness that links in to a specific flight?
All in all I think that those expenses claims are exemplary, and if all MP's had been as restrained then the country would have a lot more faith in our elected representatives.
I guess that to avoid any accusations of bias or hidden agendas I should make it clear that I will be voting for John Thurso tomorrow.
For god sake what next? IF people want to vote for John Thurso then let them, without all the nasty nitpicking,backstabbing posts on here,nothing you say is going to change voters minds if thats how they choose to vote!For all we know you may be one of the opposition! As Nick said,if you have to post things at least have the decency to make it clear that the things are 3 years old!x
Green_not_greed
05-May-10, 12:54
All in all I think that those expenses claims are exemplary, and if all MP's had been as restrained then the country would have a lot more faith in our elected representatives.
Well said.
John Thurso has also been fighting for the county for many years, and has a good track record in dealing with issues. I have always found him helpful and positive.
Which is more than I can say for the Labour candidate and his election pamphlet. It didn't have one positive thing to say about anything. All it did was slag the Tories. I would be extremely wary of any party which doesn't say anything positive about itself.
The Drunken Duck
05-May-10, 13:00
I keep wondering if one of these user names on this forum hide the identity of John Thurso. It would be logical that he would browse this forum.....
If He posts here, I wonder who he is........
My bet would be Andfield .. :D
I wouldn't consider his expenses excessive at all, he isn't my MP but if he was I wouldn't be upset about his claims at all.
Well, something needs to change in my op., if the incumbent has been fighting for Caithness issues for so long with little result as far as I can see. If nothing changes we will be in the dark ages soon despite the windmills. :eek:
Where is all the inward investment, new business, jobs etc?
HIE it seems, is very active and well funded but there is very little evidence here. :roll:
northener
05-May-10, 14:10
If I want to buy a paper, I have to pay for one out of my own pocket, simple as that.
Same with TV licence, every year the money comes out of my bank account.
But if you are called John Thurso/Sinclair etc you can get the rest of the country to buy them for you.
Mr Thurso , or should I say WE subscribe (on his behalf) on an annual basis to Northern Times, Ross-Shire Journal, Press & Journal and our own Caithness papers.
As all the address details on his claim forms have been blanked out we do not know where these papers are even going to. Is it his Caithness home or his London home (what happens when Parliament is not sitting, is he sure that they are being recycled into correct boxes)
But surely, I hear some of you thinking, Mr Thurso wants to keep abreast of all the things happening in his consticuency.
Then why did he pay the Scottish Liberal Democrats £1000 for the "Provision of Research & Briefing material on Highland Issues"
http://mpsallowances.parliament.uk/mpslordsandoffices/hocallowances/allowances-by-mp/john-thurso/John_Thurso_0607_IEP.pdf (page 97)
http://mpsallowances.parliament.uk/mpslordsandoffices/hocallowances/allowances-by-mp/john-thurso/John_Thurso_0708_IEP.pdf
Zzzzzzzzzz.........
Bit of a non-gripe, Anfield.
I claim tax relief on media publications related to my businesses. He's an MP and needs to be abreast of media developments - so he gets his telly licence sorted.
As for bunging his party a grand for information sourcing, I'd say that's either creative accounting or the truth - the LibDems have done some research for him and he's paid for that service. No problems there AFAICS.
So do you not have an MP where you live Anfield? If you do who's paying for his papers/ TV licence excetera?
Any one who thinks that John Thurso is profligate in his expenses should check out other MPs who live within easy commuting distance if London but still claimed for a second home and in the case of one labour member she was claiming for two one of which was let!
So do you not have an MP where you live Anfield? If you do who's paying for his papers/ TV licence excetera?
Any one who thinks that John Thurso is profligate in his expenses should check out other MPs who live within easy commuting distance if London but still claimed for a second home and in the case of one labour member she was claiming for two one of which was let!
I actually live here so I am concerned at the expenses of John Thurso/Sinclair.
(Very) Back bencher John Thurso/Sinclair expenses made him the 22nd costliest member of parliament. Alastair Carmichael, whose constituency is further away from Westminster is 226th on list, does that not tell you something?
I claim tax relief on media publications related to my businesses. He's an MP and needs to be abreast of media developments - so he gets his telly licence sorted.
But at the end of the day you have to buy the the media publications and despite tax relief it comes out of your pocket. Why should he get telly "sorted". Who is the most deserving case for a free TV licence, John Thurso/Sinclair MP or the millions of pensioners we have in this country who have to pay for their own papers and licence.
If you look at his website page for expenses, you will note a bit of difference to the one published by the House Of Commons
John Thurso/Sinclair version
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/john_thurso/caithness,_sutherland_and_easter_ross#expenses
House of Commons figures
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/john_thurso/caithness,_sutherland_and_easter_ross#expenses
Why is he ashamed to admit that he is the 22nd (out of 650) costliest MP we have in the UK
Anfield, you could at least make it clear that the year for which you have evidence of this gross abuse :roll: of the public purse is 2007!
I dont have "evidence" these are figures published by the House of Commons. To see a complete list of Mr Thurso's/Sinclairs expenses for period 2004-2009 see:
http://mpsallowances.parliament.uk/mpslordsandoffices/hocallowances/allowances-by-mp/john-thurso/
For god sake what next? IF people want to vote for John Thurso then let them, without all the nasty nitpicking,backstabbing posts on here,nothing you say is going to change voters minds if thats how they choose to vote!For all we know you may be one of the opposition! As Nick said,if you have to post things at least have the decency to make it clear that the things are 3 years old!x
This is a public forum and if people don't wish to read threads then fair enough. I accept that my posts will not change the committed SLD voters, but like Mr Thurso/Sinclair and all the other people on the Org I have the right to post.
I can assure you that I am not in any way connected to any of the other candidates, they are all a bit too right winged for me. My vote, when I make my mind up, will go who to the one who I think will listen to what his constituents are saying, and not just vote for things which they have a vested interest in.
Vote Thurso X - you know it makes even more sense :lol:
Vote Thurso X - you know it makes even more sense :lol:
Right, one of you two are gonna have to change your name :eek:
Does anyone know the name, it will be a bit embarrassing if I turn out tomorrow and don't know where to but my X
I've not seen hide nor hair of them :eek:
John Little
05-May-10, 20:23
John Thurso was a man.
Yes a big man.
With an eye like an eagle and a beard like a haystack had he.
John Thurso was a man.
Yes a big man.
He was brave, he was fearless and as tough as a mighty oak tree.
From the Hieland bonnet on the top of ol John
to the heel of his rawhide brogue
The rippin'est roarin'est fightin'est man Caithness ever knowed.
John Thurso was a man.
Yes a big man.
And he fought for Caithness to make all Caithnessians free.
What a Thurso.
What a wonder.
What a dream comer truer was he.
John Thurso was a man.
Yes a big man.
With an eye like an eagle and a beard like a haystack had he.
John Thurso was a man.
Yes a big man.
He was brave, he was fearless and as tough as a mighty oak tree.
From the Hieland bonnet on the top of ol John
to the heel of his rawhide brogue
The rippin'est roarin'est fightin'est man Caithness ever knowed.
John Thurso was a man.
Yes a big man.
And he fought for Caithness to make all Caithnessians free.
What a Thurso.
What a wonder.
What a dream comer truer was he.
?
Have you mixed up your medication again John
kmahon2001
05-May-10, 20:53
Well said.
John Thurso has also been fighting for the county for many years, and has a good track record in dealing with issues. I have always found him helpful and positive.
Which is more than I can say for the Labour candidate and his election pamphlet. It didn't have one positive thing to say about anything. All it did was slag the Tories. I would be extremely wary of any party which doesn't say anything positive about itself.
That's all that Labour candidate ever does. He's always writing in to the Groat slagging off John Thurso. He never has any positive comments about his own plans and ideas. He seems to think that to win an election you simply deride your opponent rather than talking about what you stand for and what you would do if you were elected. Total waste of space IMO. [disgust] He'll never get my vote with that attitude - no matter what party he represents.
John Little
05-May-10, 20:53
Nah! I only take it when me back's bad!
Spot o plagiarising is all - politicians all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhYRDPG8Mu0
Nah! I only take it when me back's bad!
Your complaining that your back is bad? My beloved Liverpool have 2 bad backs and the worst thing is that one of them cost £20M!
I don't get "Daniel Boone" connection, I was more into "Gunsmoke" I think it was called. I kept expecting to see John Thurso riding a horse with banner declaring
"Only I can save Caithness"
That said, let us see if you can spot the connection in the following links to Daniel Boone:
http://www.petitiononline.com/BookSale/petition.html
and
http://www.castlesinclairgirnigoe.org/news.html#1
Vote Thurso X tomorrow - it still makes sense :lol:
I'm going to go to the polling station and close my eyes and hope for the best, lol:cool:
I'm going to go to the polling station and close my eyes and hope for the best, lolfile:///E:/DOCUME%7E1/KEVINL%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif
I do not blame you. Despite my dislike of our old Etonian's expenses "mismanagement", it really makes no difference who you vote for nowadays.
The days when you could go out and vote for a person who was going into Westminster with the good intentions of us all are long gone. (Guy Fawkes was the last one) I use a postal vote because if it came to me having to go to a voting station, I honestly could not guarantee that I would make the effort to go.
I would also pass a pub on the way, and that would be too much of a temptation. I would end up at last orders cheering Viscount Thurso when he makes his victory speech guaranteeing to lower the rate of duty on Highland Park , pay my annual subscription to "The Scum", pay my in-laws TV (both this side of 74)
Before you go to the polling station tomorrow, have a look at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/BookSale/petition.html
and
http://www.castlesinclairgirnigoe.org/news.html#1
then decide.
My Scouse m8 is really getting desperate now - the last load of crap was posted on this .org many months ago with arms and legs added :lol:
Vote John Thurso X today - The Scouse Neither Work Nor Want Party is a lost cause [lol].
John Little
06-May-10, 08:48
That said, let us see if you can spot the connection in the following links to Daniel Boone:
http://www.petitiononline.com/BookSale/petition.html
and
http://www.castlesinclairgirnigoe.org/news.html#1
Something about being a politician and defending a difficult position?
Now these New Liebour left wing fellas really know how to claim expenses, they have obviously followed the Merseyside style [lol]
Thought they were in Court again today but their appearance has been put back to 27 May, apparently it would not have looked too good for El Gordo Broon.
Bury North MP Chaytor, 60, of Todmorden, Lancashire, is accused of falsely claiming rent on a London flat he owned, falsely filing invoices for IT work and renting a property from his mother, against regulations.
Shorpe MP Morley, 57, of Winterton, North Lincolnshire, allegedly falsely claimed £30,428 in interest payments between 2004 and 2007 towards a mortgage on his home which he had already paid off.
Livingston MP Devine, 56, of Bathgate, West Lothian, is said to have wrongly submitted two invoices worth a total of £5,505 for services provided by Armstrong Printing Limited.
He also faced a second charge alleging that he dishonestly claimed cleaning and maintenance costs of £3,240 by submitting false invoices from Tom O'Donnell Hygiene and Cleaning Services.
These lads are getting Legal Aid at your expense so thats all right then [disgust]
You know thats what has always baffled me-how the heck do they get legal aid with their wages??? Its hard enough to get it when you have nothing! Oh and when you do get it if you make any money out the settlement etc you have to pay it back,so something isnt right there! x
Im not voting,so then i can blame all of you for voting the next monkey in to raise tax's:lol:
Im not voting,so then i can blame all of you for voting the next monkey in to raise tax's:lol:
It does not work that way, the fault will be all yours for not voting :~(
It does not work that way, the fault will be all yours for not voting :~(
Nothing to do with me lol
Actually who should i vote for?I just think they are liers to get power,then the country will get worse...if that is possible!
Amy-Winehouse
06-May-10, 09:39
It does not work that way, the fault will be all yours for not voting :~(
Well said Golach, they can have no complaints if they do not use their vote.
How many candidates do we have standing in caithness today ? Id say J.T was going to win as per normal, Im never voting for Lhabour again & Tories are anti- Scotland.
Its a difficult choice as they all promise but never deliver
[QUOTE=Amy-Winehouse;702425
How many candidates do we have standing in caithness today ? .
[/QUOTE]
Just the 5 all 4 main parties in Scotland plus Gordon Campbell, never seen much of him this year at all.
Something about being a politician and defending a difficult position?
Incorrect John,
Try looking at it in a geographical way
Plus another teaser for you:
"..Note: Lord Thurso then undertook to carry out an investigation but, after 8 month of delays and what one could consider “stalling”, he produced a face-saving and self-serving report which he decided to send to the OSCR (Organisation of Scottish Charity Regulators) in the hope that it would pre-empt any report which Niven Sinclair might submit.."
A copy of this report can be obtained by contacting the Clan Sinclair Trust (trust.secretary@clansinclair.org ).
Incorrect John,
Try looking at it in a geographical way
Plus another teaser for you:
"..Note: Lord Thurso then undertook to carry out an investigation but, after 8 month of delays and what one could consider “stalling”, he produced a face-saving and self-serving report which he decided to send to the OSCR (Organisation of Scottish Charity Regulators) in the hope that it would pre-empt any report which Niven Sinclair might submit.."
Simple answer anfield..........dont vote for him
kmahon2001
06-May-10, 11:27
Well said Golach, they can have no complaints if they do not use their vote.
How many candidates do we have standing in caithness today ? Id say J.T was going to win as per normal, Im never voting for Lhabour again & Tories are anti- Scotland.
Its a difficult choice as they all promise but never deliver
The Tories aren't so small-minded as to be deliberately anti-Scotland, they're simply anti anything outside of the home counties and Scotland just happens to be one of those places that's furthest away from that favoured area. ;) However, the scope of their disinterest (or even downright contempt) is even bigger than just the area outside the home counties, they're also anti anyone who lives in the home counties who doesn't earn at least a 6 figure salary.
If the Tories get in, it would be interesting to see if they remove the Civil Partnership rights, increase taxes for unmarried couples, re-introduce Clause 28 etc etc.
BTW Am I the only one who feels somewhat cynical about these vote-grabbing whistle-stop tours of the country that all the party leaders have indulged in over the last week or two? [disgust] I'd be more impressed if we saw them out and about in the country when there isn't an election, or even a bi-election, looming. If they visited different parts of the country on a regular basis, perhaps they would have a much better grasp of what is important to the population of the UK, as well as any matters relevant to a particular part of the UK.
Must say Ive never had any dealing with MP's before, but I must say when I had a bit of trouble I found John Thurso very obliging and he DID represent my case as one of his constituants.
BTW this is not a vote for John Thurso post, its just I found him a decent chap.
I don't have a vote in Caithness but if I did I think I would vote for that nice young local loon John MacKay.
Amy-Winehouse
06-May-10, 12:14
Must say Ive never had any dealing with MP's before, but I must say when I had a bit of trouble I found John Thurso very obliging and he DID represent my case as one of his constituants.
BTW this is not a vote for John Thurso post, its just I found him a decent chap.
i forgot to mention in an earlier post about J.T , he may not be everyones choice but to be fair to him he did help out my case in something I requested him to do a year or 2 ago. I suppose I might just vote for him today but we`ll see how I feel when I get to the ballot box ;)
The Pepsi Challenge
06-May-10, 14:56
I don't have a vote in Caithness but if I did I think I would vote for that nice young local loon John MacKay.
.......Ditto.
Well-my wife and I have just doubled the Conservative vote in Caithness :eek:
The OH was a floating voter until she reached the booth :Razz
northener
06-May-10, 20:20
......
Before you go to the polling station tomorrow, have a look at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/BookSale/petition.html
and
http://www.castlesinclairgirnigoe.org/news.html#1
then decide.
Aye, I read those two.
The first one states thet the Sinclair Trust are considering selling documents that were donated to raise funds. Note "Sinclair Trust" - not John Thurso.
The second one states that an allegation was made about mismanagement, was investigated and was dismissed. Again, not John Thurso himself.
Maybe it's a conspiracy?;)
That's about the same level of low quality mud slinging that the Labour numpty up here spouts in a feeble effort to damage the reputation and standing of his opponents.
Thank God most people up here have the wit not to be taken in by cheap, crude and cynical manipulation of straightforward issues by those with no real ammunition in their lockers.....
It ain't gonna stick, Anfield. Just been and given the beardy one my vote.:Razz
The second one states that an allegation was made about mismanagement, was investigated and was dismissed. Again, not John Thurso himself.
Have another read Northerner, "..investigated and was dismissed.." did that phrase not come from the Clan Sinclair Trust?.
I would sooner wait for the Organisation of Scottish Charity Regulators to publish their report on the activities on John Thurso, Viscount Thurso, John Sinclair, Lord Thurso or any other alias he uses.
changilass
06-May-10, 21:03
I would sooner wait for the Organisation of Scottish Charity Regulators to publish their report on the activities on John Thurso, Viscount Thurso, John Sinclair, Lord Thurso or any other alias he uses.
Quite obviously you wouldn't rather wait, or you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
Let it go, you are worse than a dowg wi a bliddy bone.
You have 1 hour left to Vote Thurso X. :lol:
Hold the front page for more of Anfield's startling (old news) unfounded revelations. [lol]
northener
06-May-10, 21:07
Have another read Northerner, "..investigated and was dismissed.." did that phrase not come from the Clan Sinclair Trust?.
....
QED, Anfield. The Clan Sinclair trust - not JT personally.
I'm going to have to beat you to death with a rolled up copy of the 'Morning Star', methinks.:Razz
BTW, Is the Morning Star still in print?
Q. Where did Anfield spring from with such contentious thoughts so short of a General Election?
A. I think it might be personal but have no way of knowing this. I look forward to the official results. :)
It does not work that way, the fault will be all yours for not voting :~(
exactly, if you cant be bothered using your vote, THEN DONT MOAN WHEN THE GOVERMENT DOES SOMETHING YOU DONT LIKE, AFTER ALL WHATS A FEW MINUTES OUT OF YOUR DAY.
I'm going to have to beat you to death with a rolled up copy of the 'Morning Star', methinks.:Razz
For a charabanc operative from Keiss you can be quite sharp sometimes (why for you not stand for de gubbermint)
[lol][lol]
john thurso x
all the way
northener
06-May-10, 21:19
For a charabanc operative from Keiss you can be quite sharp sometimes (why for you not stand for de gubbermint)
[lol][lol]
I spend all day spouting my opinion upon all matters from me front seat. I couldn't stand the competition in trying to get me opinion across in Parliament...plus I have a captive audience.:Razz
ragdollyanna
06-May-10, 21:56
.......Ditto.
John Mackay gets my vote - we need fresh blood in the County - Caithness is facing a real struggle with the Dounreay and Vulcan rundown - he's a real local with a genuine interest in the County.
Plus, he was the only candidate to come to my door with his pamphlet. Can't imagine John Thurso coming anywhere near Pennyland for a chat.
I've never heard of John Mackay so that leaves me out of voting for him. It's all superfluous now.. The polls have closed.
John Mackay gets my vote - we need fresh blood in the County - Caithness is facing a real struggle with the Dounreay and Vulcan rundown - he's a real local with a genuine interest in the County.
Plus, he was the only candidate to come to my door with his pamphlet. Can't imagine John Thurso coming anywhere near Pennyland for a chat.
he came to my house for a chat and a cup of tea the other year, as he was helping us with a matter, the nicest man you would ever meet, and what did my oh do, he gave him a cup with a chip in it lol.
Being new to the county I am a bit confused by all these claims of who is 'local'.
From what I have read the Mackay fellow only moved here a few weeks ago and will apparently go back South to his day job soon whereas the Thurso/Sinclair bloke has always lived in Thurso.
Am I picking this up wrong ?
webmannie
06-May-10, 22:34
john thurso x
Held back from commenting till after closing time. Absolutely the 'beardy one', he's answered my queries, taken time to understand my business, acted upon suggestions.
On questioning the labour candidate, for such a 'local loon' he had not got a scooby about how to deal with the real issues holding back the counties regeneration.
We need an experienced hand for the hard times ahead! In particular one that is a good mediator and has sound business acumen!
As for Annfield comments, I've treated with the contempt they deserve
On questioning the labour candidate, for such a 'local loon' he had not got a scooby about how to deal with the real issues holding back the counties regeneration.
We need an experienced hand for the hard times ahead! In particular one that is a good mediator and has sound business acumen!
As for Annfield comments, I've treated with the contempt they deserve
Fair enough to you mate, that is why we live in a democracy, as I have said on many occasions until the the other parties improve their candidates, the SLD will get in every year. We need a strong local presence and an MP who is not tied to his party
ducati
I think someone has created an account to wind up the original poster, politics sometimes brings out the spite in people :)
But i could be wrong
Green_not_greed
07-May-10, 09:00
Rather interesting election result for Scotland I think.
To me it is a resounding kick in the teeth for the SNP and their minority government. The rest of the MSPs should rally together and use this to force a vote of no confidence in the SNP government followed by a Scottish election.
We need an experienced hand for the hard times ahead! In particular one that is a good mediator and has sound business acumen!
As for Anfield comments, I've treated with the contempt they deserve
More people voted against John Thurso than voted for him - fact
Boozeburglar
08-May-10, 19:06
A bit disingenuous to suggest this result says much about the SNP.
It was a Westminster election, not a Scottish parliament election, and the majority of voters in Scotland evidently voted on that basis.
While we have this partial separation there will always be some element of crossover between preferred vote and actual vote.
What is clear to me is that the natural home for a lot of people who vote Lib Dem is not the Tory Party in a two party system, and as such democracy is not served by ignoring the 18+ million who voted against the Tories.
A bit disingenuous to suggest this result says much about the SNP.
It was a Westminster election, not a Scottish parliament election, and the majority of voters in Scotland evidently voted on that basis.
While we have this partial separation there will always be some element of crossover between preferred vote and actual vote.
What is clear to me is that the natural home for a lot of people who vote Lib Dem is not the Tory Party in a two party system, and as such democracy is not served by ignoring the 18+ million who voted against the Tories.
But that is the system BB, the "winners" of an election almost always have more votes against than for.
A bit disingenuous to suggest this result says much about the SNP.
It was a Westminster election, not a Scottish parliament election, and the majority of voters in Scotland evidently voted on that basis.
While we have this partial separation there will always be some element of crossover between preferred vote and actual vote.
What is clear to me is that the natural home for a lot of people who vote Lib Dem is not the Tory Party in a two party system, and as such democracy is not served by ignoring the 18+ million who voted against the Tories.
Nor is ignoring the 19,288,145 who voted against lib dems, or the 17,511,725 who voted against labour
More people voted against John Thurso than voted for him - fact
John Thurso has secured his seat, comfortably, once more, in his Constituency. Fact.
The fact is most parties had reasonable numbers locally and nationally and there should be a way to represent those numbers in the government.
Also voting for another party doesn't mean your against the other. there are grey areas. Its not a binary decision.
Often, I believe, people will vote for the party most likely to get them out of whatever mire the previous lot left us in. With PR you'd never get a clear one party in government.
Often of course people blindly vote for the people they always voted for. :roll:
NickInTheNorth
09-May-10, 09:19
Often, I believe, people will vote for the party most likely to get them out of whatever mire the previous lot left us in. With PR you'd never get a clear one party in government.
Often of course people blindly vote for the people they always voted for. :roll:
But why should a minority of the electorate be able to foist their choice of government on the majority of the electorate.
What is wrong with a parliament which genuinely represents the desires of the electorate. The largest single party could still form the government, the only difference would be that the government would have to carry a majority of the parliament along with them by negotiation rather than just being an elective dictatorship as we have had for the past 31 years.
Weaken the parties - strengthen the people
Gives a rough idea of difference between present system and a possible new one? :confused
Arguments cited in favour of a change from First Past the Post to PR include:
The fairer treatment of minority parties and independent candidates
Fewer votes are 'wasted', as more people's preferences are taken into account
Greater effective choice for voters. By reducing the dominance of the large parties, PR may encourage turn-out and reduce apathy
By rarely producing an absolute majority for one party, PR ensures greater continuity of government and requires greater consensus in policy-making.
Arguments cited against PR include:
PR provides a route for extremists into the political mainstream, who would otherwise be excluded by the structure of FPTP
PR produces 'weak' coalition governments rather than 'strong' majority governments, which can lead to indecision, compromise and even legislative paralysis. It can also reduce accountability to voters, as an ousted party of government can reinstall itself by finding new coalition partners after an election
The adoption of list systems breaks the link between the elected representative and his or her constituency
The greater complexity and choice that PR allows can put voters off voting, by requiring them to have a greater knowledge of individual and party positions.
But why should a minority of the electorate be able to foist their choice of government on the majority of the electorate.
What is wrong with a parliament which genuinely represents the desires of the electorate. The largest single party could still form the government, the only difference would be that the government would have to carry a majority of the parliament along with them by negotiation rather than just being an elective dictatorship as we have had for the past 31 years.
Weaken the parties - strengthen the people
I'm not disagreeing Nick. It is interesting to me that these arguements always come up when the Tories er..win.
The Tories this time got a higher % vote than Labour last time but ended up with no majority :confused
The other danger of PR for me is that you would always end up with the same government. New lot same as the old lot, to paraphrase.
There would be changes under PR so the same guys wouldn't always be there. The current system has various fluctuations between elections this would factor into PR also. Depending on the system parties could run different candidates in each area and you could vote for the party or the individual candidate or rate them etc.
Like I said STV is the most enlightened or PR. http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ is a decent resource for information on the different types of PR also.
I just don't know why this country is so opposed to hung parliaments, minority governments, coalitions and PR; why do we hate making things more democratic and representative.
I'll admit some minority extreme parties would get a few seats but nothing that would spiral out of control again look at the PR system definition.
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