View Full Version : Is Orkney part of the United Kingdom?
First a little history. At one time Scotland and Norway used to fight a lot over just who owned what, eventually they got tired of fighting all the time and not getting anywhere so they decided to sit down and divide it up between them. In 1266 they signed the Treaty of Perth, that is when Caithness officially became Scottish. Scotland got the Western Isles and Norway got Orkney and Shetland.
Thus it remained until 1468 when the King of Denmark and Norway was a bit skint and couldn't afford to pay the dowry for his daughter Margaret to marry James III so he pawned Orkney to Scotland for 50,000 guilders. This gave Scotland control and rights over Orkney but as Orkney was only security on a loan which could be redeemed by future kings of Norway sovereignty was not transferred. This left Orkney in a bit of a legal no man's land so in 1669 Charles II passed the Act of Annexation which effectively made Orkney a crown dependency, not sovereign territory. At the end of the act he said that this couldn't be changed by future acts of parliament, any attempts "shall from the beginning and in all time coming be void and null and of no effect". There are a few ways sovereignty of a territory can change but this meant that in the case of Orkney, legally, act of parliament wasn't one of them. In 1707 when the Act of Union was passed therefore Orkney was a Scottish dependency not Scottish sovereign territory.
So it would seem on this basis that Orkney is a crown dependency, like the Isle of Man, not a part of the United Kingdom.
Have you asked any Orcadians how they feel about it, after all, they are the ones who really matter?
John Little
08-Mar-10, 23:12
You mean Orkney could be a tax haven and everyone there could pay lower taxes than on the mainland....
and loads of international investers would put their money there to avoid tax and the Orkney banks could cream loads of money off to enrich the local economy...
It's a notion...
Have you asked any Orcadians how they feel about it, after all, they are the ones who really matter?
I think everyone matters including Orcadians.
Wasnt there a bloke who "invaded" an uninhabited island there to claim it for himself and now produces his own stamps etc? Im sure I read about it or seen it on TV sometime.
George Brims
08-Mar-10, 23:28
Have you asked any Orcadians how they feel about it, after all, they are the ones who really matter?
The first time I went to Orkney, in I think 1966, a lady asked me how I was finding the difference between Orkney and Scotland.
You mean Orkney could be a tax haven and everyone there could pay lower taxes than on the mainland....
and loads of international investers would put their money there to avoid tax and the Orkney banks could cream loads of money off to enrich the local economy...
It's a notion...
It could go further than that. In the rest of Britain the foreshore, the land between low and high water marks is property of the Crown. Not in Orkney, Orkney is not sovereign territory and therefore the Crown has never claimed ownership of the foreshore there. So if they don't own the foreshore do they own the sea bed? And if they don't own the sea bed do they own the oil?
roadbowler
09-Mar-10, 00:28
yea, interesting to note that udal law including udal tenure applies in orkney and shetland. Says a lot in my opinion. Long before the recent abolition of feudal tenure in scotland, true allodium existed always in orkney and shetland. Meaning they cannot be taxed on their property at all. Udal tenure is free from all encumberances. But, strangely after abolition of feudal tenure all titles in scotland are now effectively allodial titles. Provided you don't place a mortage or security on the title, effectively giving away its allodial status, they can't tax you on it or take it from you or even place a charging order on it. You're the absolute owner. This has existed there since well norse rule. Bazeye, the bloke is in shetland, it appears he is completely correct. He certainly hasn't been challenged on it as far as i'm aware.
And if they don't own the sea bed do they own the oil?
I've said this before on the independance threads.
If Orkney or Shetland claimed independance from the UK/Scotland they would be very rich oil nations.
yea, interesting to note that udal law including udal tenure applies in orkney and shetland. Says a lot in my opinion. Long before the recent abolition of feudal tenure in scotland, true allodium existed always in orkney and shetland. Meaning they cannot be taxed on their property at all. Udal tenure is free from all encumberances. But, strangely after abolition of feudal tenure all titles in scotland are now effectively allodial titles. Provided you don't place a mortage or security on the title, effectively giving away its allodial status, they can't tax you on it or take it from you or even place a charging order on it. You're the absolute owner. This has existed there since well norse rule. Bazeye, the bloke is in shetland, it appears he is completely correct. He certainly hasn't been challenged on it as far as i'm aware.
Yes, the fact that udal law takes precedence over UK law in Orkney is another indicator that they are not actually part of the United Kingdom.
Interesting discussion but what are the practical implications?
roadbowler
09-Mar-10, 00:40
sorry repost on reload!!
Interesting discussion but what are the practical implications?
Simpless, send in a NATO/UN task force before the Orcadians and the Zetlanders declare unilateral Independence, they are ripe for an attack force [lol]
Simpless, send in a NATO/UN task force before the Orcadians and the Zetlanders declare unilateral Independence, they are ripe for an attack force [lol]
Yep-they need a regime change so we can put someone responsible in charge of the tide lecky :Razz
Interesting discussion but what are the practical implications?
Theoretically Orkney would have the right to have their own Parliament, raise taxes and issue their own currency should they challenge sovereignty and win. The Isle of Man does all of those and they were actually given to Scotland in the Treaty of Perth. The Isle of Man isn't even a member of the European Union.
Theoretically Orkney would have the right to have their own Parliament, raise taxes and issue their own currency should they challenge sovereignty and win. The Isle of Man does all of those and they were actually given to Scotland in the Treaty of Perth. The Isle of Man isn't even a member of the European Union.
Yes, I used to do a lot of business with the Isle of Man Gov. a few years ago and I can tell you, it is a lot easier doing business with an EU country.
(Although they are tremendously nice chaps)
Be interesting to do the pros and cons for the sheltys and orcadians, you know whether they would be better off as they are or as an Island State.
~~Tides~~
09-Mar-10, 01:07
At the end of the act he said that this couldn't be changed by future acts of parliament, any attempts "shall from the beginning and in all time coming be void and null and of no effect". There are a few ways sovereignty of a territory can change but this meant that in the case of Orkney, legally, act of parliament wasn't one of them.
I'll have to dust off the constitutional law textbook tomorrow, but, right now I am very sure that I'm right in saying that the as the UK Parliament is sovereign, it can pass any law that it likes. It can repeal or amend any law that it wishes. This is the basis of our (unwritten) constitution, i.e. parliamentary sovereignty. As such, no previous parliament can bind a future parliament.
Simpless, send in a NATO/UN task force before the Orcadians and the Zetlanders declare unilateral Independence, they are ripe for an attack force [lol]
Well no, as a Crown Dependency and British protectorate I'm afraid the UK would be obliged to protect them from any NATO attack. Britain would still represent and defend them in international affairs but they would have complete control over domestic issues.
I'll have to dust off the constitutional law textbook tomorrow, but, right now I am very sure that I'm right in saying that the as the UK Parliament is sovereign, it can pass any law that it likes. It can repeal or amend any law that it wishes. This is the basis of our (unwritten) constitution, i.e. parliamentary sovereignty. As such, no previous parliament can bind a future parliament.
But is the UK Parliament sovereign in Orkney? That is the question.
Boozeburglar
09-Mar-10, 01:18
A wonderful and interesting thread.
Seems we are back on Fred talking about things he does not fully understand again.
I'm getting a bit sick of not being able to discus the things which interest me with other orgers without being subjected to personal character attacks from the org bullies.
This has been a perfectly pleasant and interesting interchange till you decided to stick your oar in.
Boozeburglar
09-Mar-10, 01:52
"org bullies"
Lol. You could not make this crap up.
Lol. You could not make this crap up.
No need to make it up.
I didn't make any personal remarks about anyone else who contributed to this thread, why did you feel you had to make personal remarks about me?
If you don't like the thread don't read it. If you want to put a different point of view then make your point. Why do you feel the need to be insulting?
Boozeburglar
09-Mar-10, 02:10
Sorry. but you just cannot 'educate pork'.
Sorry. but you just cannot 'educate pork'.
Apparently not.
round and around we go again.
You's can play nicely or you wont be geting your visa's stamped at independent Orkney's Groats pasport control post on county show day!!
Well my OH is currently filing a claim to the islands along with the English,Scots,Norwegian and French thrones.
Do not point the tea stains!
Boozeburglar
09-Mar-10, 03:09
Lizz, are you a latter day Lady Thatcher? ;)
I really have no idea about the constitutional issues, but would consider that as Orkney and Shetland appear to be comfortable with being part of the United Kingdom, then they are. I have always found Orkney and Shetland more British than Scottish, and I mean that in a positive way.
I suppose if we were to be pedantic we could say that none of the islands that surround Great Britain are part of the UK, as the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Great Britain being the largest of the British Isles).
northener
09-Mar-10, 10:44
It's always fascinated me, there certainly would appear to be grounds for Orkney and Shetland to argue the Sovereignty issue if they saw fit. I learnt very quickly that calling Orcadians and Shetlanders 'Scots' is a very dodgy area to be in, some don't mind - other get a bit miffed.
I don't want to steer this towards a 'Scotlands Oil' thread - we've already go that on the go - but I would be very interested to see how Shetland would react if Scotland was to gain full control over the oil reserves some lay claim to. Life savings on Shetland breaking away from Scotland....
Regarding the guy who set up his own 'country' (Forvik), all the gory details are here: http://shetlopedia.com/Forvik_Island and his own website is: http://www.forvik.com/
My moles on Shetland tell me he's managed to upset everybody at some stage...not very popular, apparently. Sounds like fun, mind.:Razz
BTW...'Fishboxing'....now there's a wheeze.....
Sorry. but you just cannot 'educate pork'.
Good to see you don't hold a grudge BB [lol]
So you think Orkney is not part of the UK, there's other bits too you know http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3712510 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3712510) no, go on read down the list (too long to reproduce here) but Orkney is not alone in this respect. Obviously (before anyone jumps all over me) this tread IS about Orkney, just thought I'd mention it in passing..
So you think Orkney is not part of the UK, there's other bits too you know http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3712510 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3712510) no, go on read down the list (too long to reproduce here) but Orkney is not alone in this respect. Obviously (before anyone jumps all over me) this tread IS about Orkney, just thought I'd mention it in passing..
Yes Cornwall has a good claim too.
It was with great regret I read last year that the last native speaker of the Cornish language, that is someone who grew up in a home where their parents spoke Cornish as their first language, had died. If you kill the language you kill the country.
Yes Cornwall has a good claim too.
It was with great regret I read last year that the last native speaker of the Cornish language, that is someone who grew up in a home where their parents spoke Cornish as their first language, had died. If you kill the language you kill the country.
Goodness me!!! There will be no holding back Lizz and her OH now[lol]
We need to keep Gaelic alive too, its part of our Highland Heritage.
A wonderful and interesting thread.
This is a good thread but why do you spoil it with silly comments?
roadbowler
09-Mar-10, 12:36
lol. Fishboxing! Good one. Thanks for posting the name of the place, couldn't remember it for the life of me. What about the Principality of Sealand? The oil rig country off the coast of england? The few orcadians i know think of themselves as very Scottish but, don't think they think too highly of the scottish government. Does anyone though? :)
Mystical Potato Head
09-Mar-10, 12:51
I really have no idea about the constitutional issues, but would consider that as Orkney and Shetland appear to be comfortable with being part of the United Kingdom, then they are. I have always found Orkney and Shetland more British than Scottish, and I mean that in a positive way.
I suppose if we were to be pedantic we could say that none of the islands that surround Great Britain are part of the UK, as the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Great Britain being the largest of the British Isles).
Never thought of Orkney being more British than Scottish and Shetland even less.Personally i would have thought there are more Scandanavian ties that Scottish or British,certainly historically
Orkney has never felt British to me anyway.
Boozeburglar
09-Mar-10, 14:39
I remember at school (Shetland) we were very proud of being Scottish, as well as being Shetlanders, islanders and having close links with Norway.
I think this question should be :-
Is Caithness part of the UK?
After all if you want to get anything delivered the Price is put up as they say that Caithness is not part of the UK.
Once the decision has been made regarding Caithness then you can go one and ponder about Orkney. :D
And what about the cost of transport to us!
Once our goods reach caithness they still an expensive distance from home.
We pay through the nose for stuff over here, coal, fuel, building supplys, food, ect ect.
If the OIC was running the show then its on the cards that we would be paying an import tax as well. I wouldnt trust the local goverment to run the show as they could not orgnise a pish up in a brewery....They would sell tickets though!!
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