Spittal Hill - Dumbest Place Ever for a Windfarm

[bekisman]

You're right. The Salter ducks didn't work. Salter is a doddery old git. His supporters live in a dreamworld of conspiracy theories. As far as I can see, there is little prospect of extracting much energy from the waves.

Alex Salmond may be a gullible fool, but as I said before, Gordon Brown told us last week that Africa has huge plutonium reserves.

Could not resist - could you post link?

[secrets in symmetry]

Could not resist - could you post link?

I'm trying to find one, but I've had no success so far. I'll keep looking.

[bekisman]

I'm not too bothered as he does have the habit of saying things that we're not supposed to hear..

[olivia]

Evening Bekisman

Just wondered what has happened to your windy Miller logo/avatar/thingy?

Thought he was rather cute!

[bekisman]

Evening Bekisman

Just wondered what has happened to your windy Miller logo/avatar/thingy?

Thought he was rather cute!

Eh?
Sorry Olivia, bit confused (me age I suspect), but really have no idea what you're referring too, can you help?

[olivia]

Sorry, just having a mad moment. Thought it was you but infact it was MadPict's little picture (see his posts at the start of this thread all that time ago), just getting old!

[bekisman]

Sorry, just having a mad moment. Thought it was you but infact it was MadPict's little picture (see his posts at the start of this thread all that time ago), just getting old!

no problem - Know how you feel

[Rheghead]

You're right. The Salter ducks didn't work......[]......As far as I can see, there is little prospect of extracting much energy from the waves.

Functionally, the Salter ducks did work in trials. The R&D on the project was wrapped up in 1982 which was a)many years before Climate Change became an environmental and political issue, b) years after the threat of OPEC shananigans had subsided and c) two years before Thatcher ran down the coal mines. What a perfect time to cut the 'wastage' of public funding into something that wasn't 'needed'?, another Tory ideological triumph and short term gain.

However, I agree that there is little prospect of wave power curing the UK energy crisis, although it will be a valuable contributor, it will be marginal compared to other well established renewables. Probably about 4% of our total energy needs is the full potential and that would need a massive investment of wave machines stretching from northern Scotland to Argyll and from Pembrokeshire to Cornwall almost continuously.

[ducati]

I still think that public funding for some of these wacky ideas is wrong. If an idea has merit it will attract commercial investment (if, there is any prospect of it becaming profitable to the right degree).

[peter macdonald]

"What are you doing for the "cause" Peter? "
It isn't my cause ..and politicising it will not convert me . Maybe Ive missed something ie that you have to be of certain political persuasions to be "anti wind farm". Reading the main parties views on the subject it does not leave a lot to pick and choose from
PM

[Scout]

I have been reading the response to arguments off dumbest place ever for wind farm. First were would one be good place? as I can see every application is the wrong place the sea is the wrong place etc. As regards to Tourist I came back from the Lake District They have a wind farm and believe me you could not park to see lake Windermere from tourist. These are facts however the more you got north the less traffic on the roads this has nothing to do with Wind farms but the price of fuel facts. As regards to money being pump in to wind farms. This is no different to Dounreay, land buy outs, Farming, Crofting, all these have big hand outs. I have also been reading about few Turbines had to be shut down as there was too much power being produced for the grid. Now if we all believe anti Wind farm groups these wind farms do not produce enough power then why do they need to pay few to shut down for?

[ywindythesecond]

I have been reading the response to arguments off dumbest place ever for wind farm. First were would one be good place? as I can see every application is the wrong place the sea is the wrong place etc. As regards to Tourist I came back from the Lake District They have a wind farm and believe me you could not park to see lake Windermere from tourist. These are facts however the more you got north the less traffic on the roads this has nothing to do with Wind farms but the price of fuel facts. As regards to money being pump in to wind farms. This is no different to Dounreay, land buy outs, Farming, Crofting, all these have big hand outs. I have also been reading about few Turbines had to be shut down as there was too much power being produced for the grid. Now if we all believe anti Wind farm groups these wind farms do not produce enough power then why do they need to pay few to shut down for?

Scout
The problem with wind energy is that you have no idea when you are going to get it, and how much or how little it will be when you do. So there always has to be an alternative source of power available, and as frequently there is effectively no wind generation across the country, other forms of generation have to be in place and paid for for when there is no wind. The only reason wind generated power is used is that the Government has decreed that it will be used when it is generated so we can satisfy EU targets for generation by renewables. Otherwise it is too costly and too unreliable to use. The very high prices paid recently to persuade wind generators to turn off their input when wind and hydro generation was high and demand was low was necessary to maintain a stable supply to customers, including you, and the level of charge was effectively blackmail. The more wind power that is built the more frequently the electricity consumers will have to foot the ransom bill for turning it off when it threatens grid stability. Scotland is already overprovided with wind generation. We need a National Energy Strategy and our politicians are avoiding the issue.
http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/2...6th-april-2011

[bekisman]

Oh you mean this ywindythesecond,? makes disgusting reading - wonder where the money comes from.. I'm not being confrontational either..
'Six Scottish windfarms were paid up to £300,000 to stop producing energy, it has emerged. The turbines, at a range of sites across Scotland, were stopped because the grid network could not absorb all the energy they generated.
The REF said energy companies were paid £900,000 to halt the turbines for several hours between 5 and 6 April.According to the REF research, the payments made cost up to 20 times the value of the electricity that would have been generated if the turbines had kept running
The largest payment was given to Whitelee windfarm in East Renfrewshire, owned by Scottish Power, which was paid £308,000 in April. The RWE nPower-owned Farr windfarm, south of Inverness, received £265,000 in the same month.
Hadyardhill in South Ayrshire, which is owned by SSE Renewables, was given £140,000 to stop producing energy, while Blacklaw windfarm in Lanarkshire - also owned by Scottish Power - was given £130,000.
The Millennium windfarm in the Highlands and Beinn Tharsuin, just north of Alness, each received £33,000 and £11,500 respectively.'


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13253876

[Rheghead]

Oh you mean this ywindythesecond,? makes disgusting reading - wonder where the money comes from.. I'm not being confrontational either..
'Six Scottish windfarms were paid up to £300,000 to stop producing energy, it has emerged. The turbines, at a range of sites across Scotland, were stopped because the grid network could not absorb all the energy they generated.
The REF said energy companies were paid £900,000 to halt the turbines for several hours between 5 and 6 April.According to the REF research, the payments made cost up to 20 times the value of the electricity that would have been generated if the turbines had kept running
The largest payment was given to Whitelee windfarm in East Renfrewshire, owned by Scottish Power, which was paid £308,000 in April. The RWE nPower-owned Farr windfarm, south of Inverness, received £265,000 in the same month.
Hadyardhill in South Ayrshire, which is owned by SSE Renewables, was given £140,000 to stop producing energy, while Blacklaw windfarm in Lanarkshire - also owned by Scottish Power - was given £130,000.
The Millennium windfarm in the Highlands and Beinn Tharsuin, just north of Alness, each received £33,000 and £11,500 respectively.'


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13253876

So this costly event happened because of a transmission fault which had nothing to do with the practicalities of managing wind energy on the grid.

How much were fossil fuel generators paid to stop producing electricity?

[Scout]

Oh you mean this ywindythesecond,? makes disgusting reading - wonder where the money comes from.. I'm not being confrontational either..
'Six Scottish windfarms were paid up to £300,000 to stop producing energy, it has emerged. The turbines, at a range of sites across Scotland, were stopped because the grid network could not absorb all the energy they generated.
The REF said energy companies were paid £900,000 to halt the turbines for several hours between 5 and 6 April.According to the REF research, the payments made cost up to 20 times the value of the electricity that would have been generated if the turbines had kept running
The largest payment was given to Whitelee windfarm in East Renfrewshire, owned by Scottish Power, which was paid £308,000 in April. The RWE nPower-owned Farr windfarm, south of Inverness, received £265,000 in the same month.
Hadyardhill in South Ayrshire, which is owned by SSE Renewables, was given £140,000 to stop producing energy, while Blacklaw windfarm in Lanarkshire - also owned by Scottish Power - was given £130,000.
The Millennium windfarm in the Highlands and Beinn Tharsuin, just north of Alness, each received £33,000 and £11,500 respectively.'


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13253876

Yes that was what I was reading from. But what you don't go on and say in the paper I was reading this was fair payout as wind farms have to pay high price to connect to grid and it is only right they should be paid compensation when ask to switch off.

[ywindythesecond]

Yes that was what I was reading from. But what you don't go on and say in the paper I was reading this was fair payout as wind farms have to pay high price to connect to grid and it is only right they should be paid compensation when ask to switch off.

Twenty times the value of the electricty? Fair payment? National Grid balances the system by bringing on and constraining off thermal plant and compensates plant turned off for their losses, that is only reasonable but it is a controlled operation. This latest windfarm scam is not compensation for loss, it is blackmail. And Scout, you will pay for your share of it in your next electricity bill.

[bekisman]

Twenty times the value of the electricty? Fair payment? National Grid balances the system by bringing on and constraining off thermal plant and compensates plant turned off for their losses, that is only reasonable but it is a controlled operation. This latest windfarm scam is not compensation for loss, it is blackmail. And Scout, you will pay for your share of it in your next electricity bill.

You are right windy - 20 times!! wish people would read the whole article.

[Rheghead]

You are right windy - 20 times!! wish people would read the whole article.

Yes, I just wish folks would read the full article. 20 times eh? Not even close. Just one wind farm, Farr wind farm, 92MW was paid 16 times the going rate at £800 per MWh, but the report says the over whelming majority of generators amounting to 619MW were compensated at an average of £196 per MWh, just less than 4 times the going rate for lost production of electricity.

[bekisman]

A few thoughts on wind farms (I have links if needed):

"Soon we "celebrate" the 20,000th wind plant, without replacing even one single small plant of conventional energy."__ Ferdinand Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Bartenstein, Chairman, Bundesverband Landschaftsschutz (Federal Association for Landscape Protection), Germany

"To us these windfarms are a disaster in the countryside, we know their effect on ‘global warming’ is pathetically tiny, but to the Government they are seen as ‘proof positive’ to a gullible populace that something really is being done to reduce CO2 emissions."__ Edward Luscombe, C.Eng., B.Sc. (Eng.), MIEE


"Increased development of wind turbines does not reduce Danish carbon dioxide emissions." __ Flemming Nissen, Head of Development, Elsam, Denmark

"Wind farms don't live up to the hype that they are an environmental saviour and a serious alternate energy source, and the effects they can have on their neighbours are so serious it means they should not be allowed to get away with the exaggerated claims. Their claims are fraudulent." __ Peter McGauran, Australian Federal Agriculture Minister, former Minister for Science

"The turbines are the worst desecration of our countryside since it was laid waste in the 30 Years War nearly 400 years ago."__Hans-Joachim Mengel, Berlin University professor

The dream of environmentally friendly energy has turned into highly subsidised destruction of the countryside."__Germany's influential magazine Der Spiegel

"As our continental neighbours have discovered, and we in the UK are quickly learning, the infrastructural costs needed to support wind power generation appear to hugely outweigh the advantages. It provides a trickle of green energy but is against all the principles of sustainable development."__Clive Aslet, Country Life Magazine Editor

"The Whinash project, by replacing energy generation from power stations burning fossil fuel, will reduce carbon dioxide emission by 178,000 tonnes a year. This is impressive, until you discover that a single jumbo jet, flying from London to Miami and back every day, releases the climate-change equivalent of 520,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year. One daily connection between Britain and Florida costs three giant wind farms."
__George Monbiot, visiting professor of planning at Oxford Brookes University and 1995 recipient of the United Nations Global 500 Award for outstanding environmental achievement

"Wind turbines don't make good neighbors." __ John Zimmerman, Northeast U.S. Representative Enxco.

Wind farms are "environmentally damaging money wasters whose large scale use increases power demand. The New Age dream of a world operated by wind farms will remain a dream because the laws of physics do not allow it in an industrialised world. If wind power were economic then oil tankers would be sailing ships". __Dr. Richard Courtney, internationally recognised expert on Energy and climate change

“With the right subsidies, wind could become a viable energy source. And, with the right subsidies, gasoline could be made free, and 2-carat diamonds could be given away in cereal boxes. How is it that wind, with a 4000-year head start, is such a small player in the energy scene? Could it be — just possibly — that the answer has something to do with physics instead of economics and politics?“__ Dr. Howard Hayden, Professor Emeritus of Physics, University of Connecticut

"The Prince of Wales believes that wind farms are a "horrendous blot on the landscape" and that their spread must be halted before they irreparably ruin some of Britain's most beautiful countryside. Prince Charles, who has an abiding interest in environmental issues, has told senior aides that he does not want to have any links with events or groups that promote onshore wind farms."__ (news.telegraph, October 25, 2004)

"I am delighted to learn of the Prince of Wales's views. His Royal Highness's support on this matter would be invaluable. He understands there is nothing incompatible with being green and being opposed to wind turbines. We oppose the huge, dominant use of wind farms onshore because they won't do the job. I am sure the Prince is concerned by the aesthetics of wind farms. The great thing about the Prince is that he doesn't just shoot from the hip. He studies the facts and makes carefully formed judgments." __Campbell Dunford, chief executive of the British Renewable Energy Foundation, 2004

"I was asked to open the windfarm at Delabole. At that time nobody was talking about a gigantic programme, getting 15 or 20 per cent of the country's energy from wind turbines. It was a kind of nice green gesture. I think, now that I know as much as I do, I wouldn't have touched it with a bargepole."__ James Lovelock, founding historical and cultural leader of environmentalism for environmentalists around the world and originator of the GAIA concept.

"The trouble with wind farms, they have a huge spatial footprint for a piddling little bit of electricity. You would need 800 turbines to replace the output of a coal fired power station" __ Sir Martin Holdgate, former chairman of the British Renewable Energy Advisory Group

"Windpower is a big lie. The windmills sprouting all over our countryside are a giant nonsense." (Reader's Digest August 2003) __German professor Otfried Wolfrum, "a long-time Friends of the Earth supporter"

"Huge amounts of tax payers money for scant environmental and electrical benefit make them a scam. Wind-farms are inefficient, destroy the landscape and far more could be achieved through energy efficiency. If you lagged the roofs of 500 homes it would have the effect of putting up one turbine. They can only work 30% of the time at very best, in Denmark it is only 17%. We have to keep other stations running, spinning in reserve, inefficiently pouring out carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide. These turbines are 22 storeys high put on hills where everyone can see them. They kill bats and birds and need 1,000 tonnes of concrete as well as a road infrastructure. It beggars belief that some environmental groups can say they are 'green'."__Professor David Bellamy

"The landscape is being raped [by large wind turbines] with governmental collusion and fraudulent claims." __ Dr. John Etherington, Llanhowell, Pembrokeshire in 'Founded on a lie', The Scotsman 12/27/05

[olivia]

All good stuff Bekisman.

Went along to the first day of the Inquiry today in the Ross Institute, Halkirk. A good turnout. Going along nicely, but slowly, but then there's a lot to say. All about Landscape, Visual and Cumulative impacts. Should get on to Highland Council and Scottish Natural Heritage witnesses tomorrow starting at 0930 am.

See you there!