Yes or No to independance

[cesare]

what will you decide?

ON ANOTHER NOTE DID YOU KNOW

the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell) recently stated that " Scotland was part of England since the 1707 Treat of Union and do not exist"
This means in legal terms, if SCOTLAND becomes a "NEW STATE" by voting for Independence on Sept 18th 2014 they DO NOT inherit any debt incurred by the UK and start with a new bank account..

[macadamia]

Yes, with nothing in it, because Scotland doesn't exist in the eyes of the Union so it can't be given the money. Next......

[orkneycadian]

I guess that means they wont inherit of the oil that lies off the coast of the former "England" either then.

I am still waiting for Eck and Nic to publish the financial prospectus. But I think I'll be waiting a long time, and on that basis, my mind is pretty much already made up. Unless of course, they can come with a full and proper prospectus between now and then that will show us what we are being asked to vote for.

[Duncansby]

what will you decide?

ON ANOTHER NOTE DID YOU KNOW

the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell) recently stated that " Scotland was part of England since the 1707 Treat of Union and do not exist"
This means in legal terms, if SCOTLAND becomes a "NEW STATE" by voting for Independence on Sept 18th 2014 they DO NOT inherit any debt incurred by the UK and start with a new bank account..

Gee Whiz -missed that quote at the time! So much for England and Scotland being partners in 'union'!

[orkneycadian]

So if Scotland is still part of England, and as at this point in time, doesnt actually exist, what are we doing with a devolved government?

[Oddquine]

what will you decide?

ON ANOTHER NOTE DID YOU KNOW

the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell) recently stated that " Scotland was part of England since the 1707 Treat of Union and do not exist"
This means in legal terms, if SCOTLAND becomes a "NEW STATE" by voting for Independence on Sept 18th 2014 they DO NOT inherit any debt incurred by the UK and start with a new bank account..

And that is precisely why we are where we are now...there has never been a Union of two nations...that would have required a federal system.....and England wouldn't have been able to dictate as they have for the last 300+ years. I'm not even going to say that Westminster MPs are on the wrong side of brain dead and have spent their lives maintaining their income and perks at the expense of democracy.

The rUK is certainly pushing for the "we will replace the UK everywhere in foreign/International relations and Scotland has to start as if they were Eire or South Sudan". Wonder if it could be because if Scotland removes itself from the Union, the fishing waters go, the oil goes and the nuclear deterrent goes....and all the theoretically empty space up here used as NATO training areas goes.....and they are trying to pretend that nothing they used to get the UN veto, the EU membership etc has just removed itself from their control?

It will certainly be a real benefit if we don't have to accept our share of UK debt...as our share of UK assets aren't overly likely to negate them completely, given the current debt level....though we would end up with a lot less debt than the UK proportionate to population.....as we do now, if they included oil income in our figures.

[Oddquine]

So if Scotland is still part of England, and as at this point in time, doesnt actually exist, what are we doing with a devolved government?

Good question...that would be because what they are saying is the usual crock of Unionist crap...which is predicated only on the ability to throw manure in the hope that some sticks. We have devolution because Tony Blair thought it would kill off the SNP (and that worked well!).

If they really believed that Scotland was a part of England.....why would they be worrying about the SNP any more than they worried about the BNP? Even if Scotland elected SNP MPs in all constituencies that doesn't mean that the Union Parliament has to take any notice, given any MPs elected by Scotland are still outnumbered in Westminster by around 10 to 1.

What Unionist politicians say for public consumption and what they think are different things. Afer all, if they did not think Scotland was a separate nation...why did they bury the McCrone Report?

[ywindythesecond]

what will you decide?

ON ANOTHER NOTE DID YOU KNOW

the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell) recently stated that " Scotland was part of England since the 1707 Treat of Union and do not exist"
This means in legal terms, if SCOTLAND becomes a "NEW STATE" by voting for Independence on Sept 18th 2014 they DO NOT inherit any debt incurred by the UK and start with a new bank account..

I haven't checked but I think that it is very unlikely that David Mundell actually stated that " Scotland was part of England since the 1707 Treat of Union and do not exist".

I also haven't checked, but I doubt if "legal terms" apply to "if SCOTLAND becomes a "NEW STATE" by voting for Independence on Sept 18th 2014 they DO NOT inherit any debt incurred by the UK and start with a new bank account".

[Kenn]

Get a life Oddquine if England had n't bailed Scotland out on several occasions then it would have gone down the pan many years ago.

[Partan]

Get a life Oddquine if England had n't bailed Scotland out on several occasions then it would have gone down the pan many years ago.

It would be useful if you would specify the "several occasions".

My history studies failed to mention these.

Granted the Union of 1707 bailed out the Scottish aristocracy who had foolishly mortgaged their assets for the Darien Scheme. "Parcel of rogues" and "English gold" etc.

[squidge]

Whatever happened in the past is useful to know as it helps us think about what we would do differently. If Lizz believes that England has bailed Scotland out and that is a reason for not supporting the union then it is equally valid to say that Scotland has bailed out England through the oil revenues and that had Westminster not squandered the oil revenues then Scotland would not have needed any bailing out. We need to look forward. The referendum is about Scotland's future and the future of our children. It is about putting the power to run Scotland back into the hands of the people of Scotland. You and me. Its about having the opportunity to change things in a way we dont have now.

And before someone slags me off for mentioning oil as if that is all there is lets add some context to Scotland's economy.


Scotland having generated more tax per head than the UK for every one of the last 30 years
* Our world-class food and drink industry which is seeing rising exports and the most recent annual turnover of £12.4 billion
* Our thriving creative industries which are recognised throughout the world and have an annual turnover of £4.8 billion
* Our global reputation in life sciences and an annual turnover of £2.9 billion
* Our oil and gas industry, which is seeing record investment and which, in 2011, contributed £26bn to Scotland’s GDP and boosted the UK balance of payments by £40bn.
* Our green energy reserves, with an estimated 25 per cent of Europe’s tidal and offshore wind resources.
* Our tourism industry which employs almost 200,000 people
* Our manufacturing sector, which exported £14.7bn in 2011

Scotland can afford to be independent.

[orkneycadian]

From an Orkney context then;

Scotland having generated more tax per head than the UK for every one of the last 30 years
* Our world-class food and drink industry which is seeing rising exports and the most recent annual turnover of £12.4 billion
Orkney Meat, producer of the World Class "Orkney Gold" brand - No more
* Our thriving creative industries which are recognised throughout the world and have an annual turnover of £4.8 billion
Ortak - One of the biggest jewellery manufacturer - In administartion - a number of shops in the UK now closed
* Our global reputation in life sciences and an annual turnover of £2.9 billion
Not something that happens in this neck of the woods, as far as I am aware
* Our oil and gas industry, which is seeing record investment and which, in 2011, contributed £26bn to Scotland’s GDP and boosted the UK balance of payments by £40bn.
Flotta Oil Terminal - A quiet backwater compared to the 70's and 80's. Tankers in Scapa flow are something of a rareity these days
* Our green energy reserves, with an estimated 25 per cent of Europe’s tidal and offshore wind resources.
With many Scottish residents sending out a message that they do not want this in Scotland
* Our tourism industry which employs almost 200,000 people
With downturns due to visitors saying they cannot afford to come to the extremities of the UK due to the higher cost compared to going to low cost destinations
* Our manufacturing sector, which exported £14.7bn in 2011
Not sure what we manufacturer in these parts anymore, thats not covered above.

Scotland can afford to be independent.

So either these cash cows are not relevant to the North of Scotland, or they have been milked dry and are on the way to the knackery. In either case, we might become as dependant on Central Scotland as we presently are on England.

[Partan]

Whatever happened in the past is useful to know as it helps us think about what we would do differently. If Lizz believes that England has bailed Scotland out and that is a reason for not supporting the union then it is equally valid to say that Scotland has bailed out England through the oil revenues and that had Westminster not squandered the oil revenues then Scotland would not have needed any bailing out. We need to look forward. The referendum is about Scotland's future and the future of our children. It is about putting the power to run Scotland back into the hands of the people of Scotland. You and me. Its about having the opportunity to change things in a way we dont have now.

Squidge, the voice of reason, logic and conciliation! I am serious not sarcastic.

I have to disagree with your view that we should move on from the contention by LIZZ that England is continually bailing out Scotland.

An ongoing tactic by the Better Together cabal is to make bald assertions and repeat them ad nauseam in the hope that they will be accepted as fact.

In the interest of the truth these assertions must be challenged. Assertions about the future will only be confirmed or proved false when the time comes. Neither side of the argument do the electorate any favours by making unfounded or currently nonprovable assertions.

Again I ask LIZZ to back up her assertions of bailout with facts to support it.

Squidge, have a good day.

[rich62_uk]

I think I love you Squidge ! Totally agree ONCE AGAIN on all you say.

[Oddquine]

Get a life Oddquine if England had n't bailed Scotland out on several occasions then it would have gone down the pan many years ago.

But if they bailed Scotland out on any occasions....wouldn't that have been because of the effects of the actions of the English Government (since the Union of the Crowns) and a predominantly South of England oriented Parliament (since the Union of Parliaments) producing policies which were not designed to help our economy at all?

Can you come up with any time Scotland was "bailed out" as you put it, for any reason which was not as a direct result of policies made in London for London........or for buying votes in England? The deregulation of the banking system is one classic example which immediately springs to my mind.

[squidge]

So either these cash cows are not relevant to the North of Scotland, or they have been milked dry and are on the way to the knackery. In either case, we might become as dependant on Central Scotland as we presently are on England.

Far be it for me to question someone who lives on orkney but I think you may be being a wee bit pessimisitic,

A couple of examples -

Food and Drink

http://www.orkney.com/b/Orkney+Quali...+and+Drink+Ltd

Creative Industries - Crafts
http://www.orkneydesignercrafts.com/...l_Brochure.pdf

Renewables
Hatston (Orkney) – a five hectare marine site identified in the National Renewables Infrastructure Plan (N-RIP). Construction of six workshop units is underway and there are potential agglomeration benefits when considered together with Lyness and Scrabster. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...oyment17012012
http://www.orkneymarinerenewables.co...velopments.asp

Oil

Whilst definitely quieter than its heyday, Flotta is still seeing nearly 3 million barrels of oil through its terminal.

Here is the OrkneyCouncils Economic review for 2011. http://www.orkney.gov.uk/Service-Dir...nformation.htm
It shows that there are a greater percentage of the working population who are economically active in Orkney than in Scotland and the UK. About five per cent more. It shows that there were the following active enterprises in Orkney in the sectors shown.

Agriculture, forestry and fishing
710
Mining & Quarrying
5
Manufacturing
55
Electricity, gas, steam and air conditioning supply
10
Water supply, sewerage, waste management & remediation activities
5
Construction
130
Wholesale & Retail Trade and Repair of Motor Vehicles
175
Transportation and storage
45
Accommodation and food services
80
Information and communication
15
Financial and insurance services
10
Real estate activities
10
Professional, scientific and technical activities
75
Administrative and support services
70
Education
10
Human health & social work
35
Arts, entertainment, recreation
25
Other service activities
35

There is an economic strategy too http://www.orkneycommunities.co.uk/C...on%20plan_.pdf

Tourism alone is worth 32 million to Orkney and whilst Orkney, like the rest of us, has had casualties of this economic downturn, with a 1.5% unemployment rates - the lowest in the highlands - it seems to be holding its own.

I am sure that it can seem depressing when you compare it to the heyday of the oil industry and 8,9, million barrels of oil heading through Flotta but you must see that Orkney is not "on its way to the knackery".

[squidge]

Just as an aside in case anyone missed it. The Scottish Governments paper Scotland's Economy; the case for Independence was published yesterday. I urge everyone to read it whatever their view on Independence. I am not suggesting that it will change your mind - I have no expectations of that - indeed I dont care which way you vote or even if you choose to vote at all - that is YOUR choice. I do care that you have the information you need to make a decision. I rather think that many committed No supporters will curl their lip and not get past Alex Salmond's Introduction but they should. The report is easy to read and understand. It is not couched in the economic language that turns many people off the subject - including me. I found it very straightforward and it is a paper that all voters should really try to read. There are tables and supporting evidence for the mathematically inclined and plenty of referenced quotes for those who prefer words.Even if you have never read anything like this before you should give it a go.

Here it is

http://scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00422987.pdf

[Oddquine]

Just as an aside in case anyone missed it. The Scottish Governments paper Scotland's Economy; the case for Independence was published yesterday. I urge everyone to read it whatever their view on Independence. I am not suggesting that it will change your mind - I have no expectations of that - indeed I dont care which way you vote or even if you choose to vote at all - that is YOUR choice. I do care that you have the information you need to make a decision. I rather think that many committed No supporters will curl their lip and not get past Alex Salmond's Introduction but they should. The report is easy to read and understand. It is not couched in the economic language that turns many people off the subject - including me. I found it very straightforward and it is a paper that all voters should really try to read. There are tables and supporting evidence for the mathematically inclined and plenty of referenced quotes for those who prefer words.Even if you have never read anything like this before you should give it a go.

Here it is

http://scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00422987.pdf

Tried to rep you but wasn't allowed to...so just posting to say that the PDF file is interesting. I have spent a long time reading it....and while there are parts with which I, personally, am inclined to disagree (mainly EU and the green/windmill oriented stuff...not the figures but the real need for either), there are enough figures given for a decent discussion...though on here. I won't be holding my breath in anticipation of that.

As an effort to be even-handed I link you all to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22580074 and to
http://thinkandtalkwithtods.com/2013...y-environment/

[golach]

No disrespect to you Squidge, but I choose not to believe anything that comes from Eck and his cronies, I will still vote NO no matter what.

[squidge]

None taken Golach