WikiLeaks

[redeyedtreefrog]

Okay, so even if they mistook the guy's equipment for an RPG, even if it was an error of judgement, why did they open fire on a good Samaritan in a van?

[Neil Howie]

Further information on wikipedia here

for those interested.

[Connor.]

If you look well enough around "LiveLeak" you will find dozens of misuse of power in Iraq. There was one(Can't remember whether it made it to the news or not) where they collected people standing at the side of the road, took them behind a fence where no one would see them and beat them until they were unconscious.

There's a few heat vision ones where the pilot is told to "take out any movement".

It's sickening, to be frank.

[northener]

Medics? Where?

I see no marked medical vehicle (and naughty people are very keen to use these to transport themselves around in - so even they're on dodgy ground) and I see no obviously medical staff.

What I do see is what I referred to earlier. Someone trying to help out who should have had more sense.

Look at the pictures in front of you. An empty square, nothing but bodies and destruction - se anyone else running to their aid? No? Why not?
Because they knew what was happening.

Along comes the van.
Now, be honest: Something has obviously just taken place - if you had your kids in the van would you approach this situation? This is Iraq..not a country lane where the local vicar has just fallen off his bike.....

The poor sod in the van did what he thought was best - and he paid for it dearly. The Apache crew, based upon their existing knowledge of these situations did what they thought was best.

You don't go running round war zones getting involved without clear means of identification. You certainly don't park up a van with kids in and start lugging people into it without fully assessing the situation first.

But, then again, hindsight is a wonderful thing, as more than a few of us have proved in this thread.........

[bekisman]

As I see it that helicopter crew had a dodgy first engagement but the second one shooting up people involved in medical evacuation is clearly wrong in any civilised context and probably a crime even in war time.
Murdering medics and civilians giving aid to wounded is not what we are there for is it. I don’t really think its on!!

You must have better eyes than me - I did not see a 'medical evacuation' or anyone murdering 'medics' - this is exactly how propaganda is spread, but your post: #32 "I find it quite incredulious(sic) that so many pepole(sic) with expierience(sic) of war will stand back and say it never happens....blue on blue/ frendly(sic) fire/ miss id/ bad calls or whatever". Gives an indication that of course 'things' happen.

'War' is not an exact science, but don't at the same time suggest that we, who have experience, stand back and say it never happened; it does.

[dafi]

Sorry northerner but i disagree.


Firing on anyone that are engaged in helping the wounded appears to me to be a complete breach of the laws governing military conduct during war.

I think it is quite clear that a war crime has been committed here. It’s a pretty strait forwards sort of thing!! If people are engaged in helping the wounded then they are non combatants. If while engaged in this humanitarian act they are deliberately cut to pieces by machine gun fire then it is a war crime.

It might need more evidence to be produced in an enquire to prove beyond doubt like all the relevant com feeds and sworn testimony of those involved but I think this is a prima facia case of a war crime being committed.

To be seen to cover up incidents like this with denial and excuses like its not in the national interest is to expose is not on. Every time this sort of thing is exposed and bypassed, excused or ignored cuts the moral ground from under our feet and ultimately puts our forces in even more danger. Its not civil servants in the pentagon that will pay the price for this it’s the men and woman on the front line who will pay with their blood.

[northener]

I'll agree 100% with not trying to hide incidents like this. It certainly does more harm in the long run, no doubt in my mind at all.

Would I have fired on the van? No. Not until I had a clearer picture in my mind of what was happening, but that's easy for me to say sat in front of my PC safe in my house. Circling an armed incident over Iraq I maybe persuaded to change my stance on that issue.....

Is it a war crime? Not in my book - not unless you label every killing of a hapless civilain in armed conflict a war crime - which I suppose it is, really.

(edit)

Bear in mind my previous comment about the 'removal' of fighters from an area. The aircrew believed they were dealing with 'fighters', an unmarked van pulls up and begins lugging a 'fighter' away. Patched up to fight another day? No chance, pal.

Had the van been marked up as an ambulance - then all well and good. It wasn't.
The lesson to be learned here is don't get involved in something you shouldn't. Humanitarian doesn't come into it. This is war - it's not nice and the rule book doesn't work when people start shooting.

[dafi]

I am not a trained observer but i can recognise an AK 47 and an RPG at a glance and it was pretty obvious that none were on show at any point...and the victims were under observation for long enough to be seen carrying weapons and the fact to be established beyond doubt.

I think the rules do apply and should be applied…that’s what should be separating us form this criminal insurgency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sx...layer_embedded

This film is not nice and shouldnt be viewed if you have any qualms about watching sutch things!!

[John Little]

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility."
-- John Arbuthnot Fisher

"If you rub it in, both at home and abroad, that you are ready for instant war, with every unit of your strength in the first line and waiting to be first in, and hit your enemy in the belly and kick him when he is down … then people will keep clear of you." In a letter to German Grand Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz in March 1916, Fisher barked, "You're the sailor who understands war. Kill your enemy or be killed yourself."

[The Drunken Duck]

Watching a video of a heart operation doesn't make me an expert on heart surgery.

Watching a video of an Apache engagment doesn't make others an expert on warfare.

Warfare is a dirty, brutal, nasty, visceral, primitve buisness. It cant be fully explained unless you see it for yourself. It brings out the worst in people. The rules allow extreme force, thats what warfare is. The application of violence. Obviously thats unpaletable to the unwashed masses on the rare occasion they get a glimpse of it when they look up from X Factor so they start chirping away about something they know sod all about. But the one thing I REALLY dont get is that the enemy is painted as whiter than white while every opportunity is taken to paint our guys in the worst possible light. Some of these people need to go live in Iraq or Afghanistan for a while to see the reality for themselves, not that they would.

I am just glad I dont have to put my neck on the line for them anymore.

[bekisman]

Watching a video of a heart operation doesn't make me an expert on heart surgery.

Watching a video of an Apache engagment doesn't make others an expert on warfare.

Warfare is a dirty, brutal, nasty, visceral, primitve buisness. It cant be fully explained unless you see it for yourself. It brings out the worst in people. The rules allow extreme force, thats what warfare is. The application of violence. Obviously thats unpaletable to the unwashed masses on the rare occasion they get a glimpse of it when they look up from X Factor so they start chirping away about something they know sod all about. But the one thing I REALLY dont get is that the enemy is painted as whiter than white while every opportunity is taken to paint our guys in the worst possible light. Some of these people need to go live in Iraq or Afghanistan for a while to see the reality for themselves, not that they would.

I am just glad I dont have to put my neck on the line for them anymore.

Nah, it's so much safer from behind a PC..

[Phill]

Watching a video of a heart operation doesn't make me an expert on heart surgery.

Watching a video of an Apache engagment doesn't make others an expert on warfare.

Warfare is a dirty, brutal, nasty, visceral, primitve buisness. It cant be fully explained unless you see it for yourself. It brings out the worst in people. The rules allow extreme force, thats what warfare is. The application of violence. Obviously thats unpaletable to the unwashed masses on the rare occasion they get a glimpse of it when they look up from X Factor so they start chirping away about something they know sod all about. But the one thing I REALLY dont get is that the enemy is painted as whiter than white while every opportunity is taken to paint our guys in the worst possible light. Some of these people need to go live in Iraq or Afghanistan for a while to see the reality for themselves, not that they would.

I am just glad I dont have to put my neck on the line for them anymore.

I can't give you rep for that as I apparently need to spread it around some more!


Having now had chance to watch the un-edited version of this video it is clearly very different from the original clipped/edited version I saw.
The situation is very different from what some factions want to paint it as, the difference between the two videos is quite amazing.

The first one is spin & propaganda.

I'm still at odds with the transcription though, do we know if this has been done by the Wikileaks people, is this what they refer to as decrypted or is that a DoD transcription (which I doubt)?

[fred]

Watching a video of a heart operation doesn't make me an expert on heart surgery.

Watching a video of an Apache engagment doesn't make others an expert on warfare.

Warfare is a dirty, brutal, nasty, visceral, primitve buisness. It cant be fully explained unless you see it for yourself. It brings out the worst in people. The rules allow extreme force, thats what warfare is. The application of violence. Obviously thats unpaletable to the unwashed masses on the rare occasion they get a glimpse of it when they look up from X Factor so they start chirping away about something they know sod all about. But the one thing I REALLY dont get is that the enemy is painted as whiter than white while every opportunity is taken to paint our guys in the worst possible light. Some of these people need to go live in Iraq or Afghanistan for a while to see the reality for themselves, not that they would.

I am just glad I dont have to put my neck on the line for them anymore.

Well you see the war didn't look too horrible for the American soldiers sat up there out of harm's reach in their helicopters, they were having a whale of a time laughing and joking. It was those two young children who had just been shot up with 30mm machine gun fire right after being orphaned for whom the war was dirty, brutal and nasty.

[scotsboy]

Well you see the war didn't look too horrible for the American soldiers sat up there out of harm's reach in their helicopters, they were having a whale of a time laughing and joking. It was those two young children who had just been shot up with 30mm machine gun fire right after being orphaned for whom the war was dirty, brutal and nasty.

The ones that the soldiers were seen carrying and trying to get medical assistance for..........its all about persective, and unfortunately we dont have all the facts, it would be nice to see and know what occurred before the start of the video.

[fred]

The ones that the soldiers were seen carrying and trying to get medical assistance for..........its all about persective, and unfortunately we dont have all the facts, it would be nice to see and know what occurred before the start of the video.

Yes, the ones which were turned away from an American military hospital and handed over to Iraqi police who were told to take them to an Iraqi civil hospital.

[northener]

Well you see the war didn't look too horrible for the American soldiers sat up there out of harm's reach in their helicopters, they were having a whale of a time laughing and joking. .......

You've just lost credibility with that comment, Fred. Tabloid-style fist shaking and hand wringing really should be below you.

If you want to discuss - then fine, I'll be happy to oblige. I respect much of what you say although I disagree.
But if you're going to go off on one of your tiresome emotive slagging excercises then you'll hear no more from me.

[onecalledk]

war has no winners. This post screams justification for what is going on in that country.

Of course there is spin, spin from this country into what the other side are doing to get everyone hating the other side and vice versa.

So at the end of the day who wins ? no one . The soldiers sent out from this country put their lives on the line. The people living in that country face death every time they venture out.

We are all human beings. War brings out the very worst in humans, there is no doubt about that. Years from now the atrocities that were carried out by BOTH sides will come out just like it has done from previous wars.

Soldiers who are trained to kill and fight do just that. They bypass their human ethics and emotion as if they didnt they would be at greater risk of being killed. That however does not make it right.

War will NEVER solve anything on this planet. It just brings death and destruction to everyone involved.

K

[John Little]

"War will NEVER solve anything on this planet." Actually OCK although I can agree with most of your post this ain't so.

War finished the Nazis; it finished Napoleon, gained Scotland independence from Edward ll etc.

[fred]

"War will NEVER solve anything on this planet." Actually OCK although I can agree with most of your post this ain't so.

War finished the Nazis; it finished Napoleon, gained Scotland independence from Edward ll etc.

It still didn't solve anything, it just replaced one set of psychopaths with another.

[John Little]

I do assure you that you would find the present set preferable to the ones who were defeated in 1945.

They did not allow dissent Fred - and you would be on their list.