Sailors held by Iran

[Angela]

This is not related to ths selling of stories to the media.

fred, you're quoting my post #275, which naturally enough followed posts #272,#273,and #274...and doesn't relate to later posts on this thread.

I'd originally posted slightly off topic on this thread, on the subject of the sailors being allowed to sell their stories, and took that question to another thread...hence my post #275.

The issue of propaganda does, however, seem to straddle both threads.

[MadPict]

I didn't pity her anymore than the other 14. Try not making assumptions fred, they invariably make you look like an ass....
Who cares what the Iranians think of females serving their country - I don't. They show how they feel about females by executing teenage girls...

On 15 August, 2004, Atefah Sahaaleh was hanged in a public square in the Iranian city of Neka.

Her death sentence was imposed for "crimes against chastity".

The state-run newspaper accused her of adultery and described her as 22 years old.

But she was not married - and she was just 16.

Former revolutionary guard, 51-year-old Ali Darabi - a married man with children - raped her several times.

She kept the relationship a secret from both her family and the authorities.

The UN General Assembly has censured Iran for human rights violations, in a relatively close vote.

By 71 votes to 54, with 55 abstentions, the assembly on Monday said Tehran restricted free speech, used torture, and persecuted dissenters.

The resolution is not legally binding but is an expression of world opinion.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International says it fears an Iranian woman convicted of adultery may be buried up to her chest and stoned to death on Tuesday.

The human rights group has urged the Iranian authorities to grant a last-minute reprieve to the woman, Hajieh Esmailvand.

UN resolution also condemned Iran for -
* the execution of children

* torture, as well as degrading punishments such as amputation, flogging and stoning

* discrimination against women and girls

* the persecution of political opponents, following last February's mass disqualification of opposition candidates in the run-up to parliamentary elections

* discrimination against minorities, including Christians, Jews, Sunni Muslims, and in particular followers of the Baha'i faith, including arbitrary arrest and detention.

You love Iran so much - go and chuffin' live there and give us a rest....

[scotsboy]

I have been to Iran a couple of times, unfortunately it was in 1980 during the Iran/Iraq war and even though I was working for the Irano-British Shipping Company the Revolutionary Guard paid me little respect.........however it is a country I really want to explore and hope to travel there sometime in the future. Most Iranians I have met are very friendly and hospitable, and their country seeminlgy has fantastic beauty, and they have a long and prestigous history. I don't think that their current government (sic) regime is a great indicator of what I will find if I go there.

[JAWS]

I think we should be conscious of the customs and beliefs of other countries and make allowances where appropriate.

Yes, they should, shouldn't they!

[fred]

I have been to Iran a couple of times, unfortunately it was in 1980 during the Iran/Iraq war and even though I was working for the Irano-British Shipping Company the Revolutionary Guard paid me little respect.........however it is a country I really want to explore and hope to travel there sometime in the future. Most Iranians I have met are very friendly and hospitable, and their country seeminlgy has fantastic beauty, and they have a long and prestigous history. I don't think that their current government (sic) regime is a great indicator of what I will find if I go there.

I don't think Iran is ruled by their government, or any one group, it is a complex power sharing arrangement.

There is one point you could clarify with your experience of the Middle East. People talk about the oppression of women there. People who have worked in the Middle East have told me that it is the women themselves who enforce these laws, that if a woman was to say go out in public wearing makeup that it wouldn't be the men they had to fear they would be set upon by other women. Is this your experience as well and do you think things like cruel punishments which if someone were to post them might fill people with revulsion and hatred for the Iranian people are any worse in Iran than in other Middle Eastern countries such as our friends Saudi Arabia?

[fred]

Yes, they should, shouldn't they!

I don't think the Iranian army gets out too much for it to be an issue.

[MadPict]

The women in these countries are kept suppressed by the MEN. All the clerics are MEN. All the lawmakers are MEN.
MEN impose the dress codes on the women. The women accept it in some false belief it keeps their men loyal to them.

Why do women who try to improve the status of their fellow women suffer imprisonment and torture and persecution for only wanting equal rights to those enjoyed by the MEN?

You getting the link here yet fred? MEN MEN MEN....

Go look up some of the issues faced by women in countries like Iran - girls hung from the arms of JCBs - women made to sit on the ground and have rocks piled onto them until the life is crushed out of them.
Women in Afghanistan shot in the back of the head in public for a "sin".

Women treated like chattels - this is the 21st century, not the dark ages.

But of course we should respect their customs because women are mere possessions.....

[fred]

The issue of propaganda does, however, seem to straddle both threads.

It does.

But my main concern is the average of 70 civillians a day being killed in Iraq and countering the anti Iranian propaganda being spread by the war mongers on this board. The same sort of propaganda spread about Iraq before our invasion.

Servicemen selling stories doesn't seem all that important to me, the 70 civillians a day in Iraq does but even that might pale into insignifigance compared to what might happen if America launches airstrikes on Iran.

[MadPict]

What "anti-Iranian propaganda" and who you calling a "warmonger"?

The treatment of women in Iran is not propaganda - go look up some human rights sites instead of gleaning your information from apologist sources.

The "70 civilians getting killed a day in Iraq" are probably being killed by Iranian funded insurgents!!!........

Cherry picking points again eh?.....

[golach]

The Royal Hussars nickname the Cherrypickers

[Angela]

Servicemen selling stories doesn't seem all that important to me, the 70 civillians a day in Iraq does but even that might pale into insignifigance compared to what might happen if America launches airstrikes on Iran.

Yes fred...I was glad that the British sailors came home safely, not only for them as individuals, but because it seemed as if a diplomatic solution had been found that appeared to get the result we (in this country) wanted. It avoided the Iranians losing face, which I think is, and always has been, an especially important factor in the Middle East.

I'd hoped that the situation might then calm down, and not escalate.

Unfortunately I feel further British goverment propaganda -which is what the sailors' stories appearing in the media is in effect - will increase tensions. That's the main reason I think it's an important issue. (My feeling that it's a sort of compensation "by the back door" which must be distressing to the families of servicemen and women who have lost their lives in Iraq or elsewhere does, I agree, belong on the other thread.)

This doesn't mean that I agree with the way women are treated in Iran or indeed in Afghanistan (I don't) but I see no reason for us to charge into other people's countries and make matters worse, either.

I don't agree with our forces being in Iraq (although since they are there I obviously do support them and wish them well) and the last thing I would want is an attack on Iran.

[fred]

This doesn't mean that I agree with the way women are treated in Iran or indeed in Afghanistan (I don't) but I see no reason for us to charge into other people's countries and make matters worse, either.

We are two different cultures and there are bound to be things which most people find repulsive on both sides. The male domination of women in Islamic countries is one of them though I'm sure there are more than a few wife beaters in Britain. Equally there will be things about the west most Iranians will find repulsive, things like alcohol, gambling and pornography, though I'm sure there are more than a few Iranians like a tipple from time to time.

I think if we took an honest look at ourselves the way Iranians must see us, parents affraid to let their children walk home alone for fear of what might happen to them, the casualty unit on a Saturday night, the depravation of the inner cities, we'd find we don't have too much to be proud of ourselves.

[golach]

We are two different cultures and there are bound to be things which most people find repulsive on both sides. The male domination of women in Islamic countries is one of them though I'm sure there are more than a few wife beaters in Britain. Equally there will be things about the west most Iranians will find repulsive, things like alcohol, gambling and pornography, though I'm sure there are more than a few Iranians like a tipple from time to time.

I think if we took an honest look at ourselves the way Iranians must see us, parents affraid to let their children walk home alone for fear of what might happen to them, the casualty unit on a Saturday night, the depravation of the inner cities, we'd find we don't have too much to be proud of ourselves.

In Edinburgh we have a fairly large Iranian community, and I know a few of them very well, they drink and smoke and gamble and think the Western women are fair game to them. A case of when in Rome eh Fred?
There is also a large Saudi Arabian community here too, but they are by far the worst Arabs I have seen, for not keeping to their faith when not inside the confines of their homeland.
Many of my Iranian friends are refugees for their own country.....so why do they come here? If as you say Fred we are the decedant West?

[Rheghead]

We are two different cultures and there are bound to be things which most people find repulsive on both sides. The male domination of women in Islamic countries is one of them though I'm sure there are more than a few wife beaters in Britain. Equally there will be things about the west most Iranians will find repulsive, things like alcohol, gambling and pornography, though I'm sure there are more than a few Iranians like a tipple from time to time.

I think if we took an honest look at ourselves the way Iranians must see us, parents affraid to let their children walk home alone for fear of what might happen to them, the casualty unit on a Saturday night, the depravation of the inner cities, we'd find we don't have too much to be proud of ourselves.

That is a fair post, I agree.

[scotsboy]

I don't think Iran is ruled by their government, or any one group, it is a complex power sharing arrangement.

There is one point you could clarify with your experience of the Middle East. People talk about the oppression of women there. People who have worked in the Middle East have told me that it is the women themselves who enforce these laws, that if a woman was to say go out in public wearing makeup that it wouldn't be the men they had to fear they would be set upon by other women. Is this your experience as well and do you think things like cruel punishments which if someone were to post them might fill people with revulsion and hatred for the Iranian people are any worse in Iran than in other Middle Eastern countries such as our friends Saudi Arabia?

Dress for males and females in Islamic countries should be conservative, there are certain Islamic standards for both male and female dress – and in Saudi Arabia guidance is given to you before you arrive as to what is expected. It’s not a law as such, more a standard that is expected. Of course most Westerners who work in Saudi live in residential complexes, where the standards of dress are just like anywhere else – but when they go out in communities they should dress conservatively. Western women are not required to wear Islamic dress, but most choose to when they go out – so as not to cause offence. If they don’t then some may get hissed at etc by local women, but that is not common in Cities/towns and would probably only be encountered in more rural areas. There are religious police (Mataween) who sometimes will confront people about their dress – however if a lady is out on her own, they are not permitted to speak directly to her. Probably the biggest percentage of transgressions in dress code are committed by ex-pat males, who wear shorts in public areas, again there is no law against it, but it is just seen as being disrespectful.

It should be stated that more and more Saudi women are entering the workforce, and are playing a far more active role in their society than they are given credit for outside Saudi Arabia. And do not be fooled into thinking that “having” to wear Islamic dress is any barrier in terms of appearance, style and allure – there are some stunning women, dressed in a very alluring way.

In answer to your question Fred, I think it’s a bit of yes and no. There are generally accepted standards, and people like them, they feel comfortable with them – but they are changing. Anyone who has been to Bahrain/Dubai etc will know that it is more akin to Miami than the Middle East – and dress is much more informal.

[JAWS]

According to Tehran's own account, 189 prisoners were hanged in 2006, including women and minors. Last year a total of 1,250,000 people were arrested in Iran. Peaceful demonstrations of women, students, teachers, bus drivers, labour unions and ethnic minorities were violently suppressed and hundreds arrested and imprisoned.

Currently, there are eight women sentenced to death by stoning and 32 facing execution by other means, five of them are below the age of 20.

http://www.ikwro.org.uk/

Since 1990, we know of 13 child offenders that have been executed in Iran. Six of them were executed in 2005. We are concerned about this increase in executions of child offenders.

We estimate that there are currently between 28 and 35 child offenders under sentence of death in Iran's prisons. The Iranian authorities have denied their execution of child offenders. On 20 January 2005 they reported to the Committee on the Rights of the Child that such executions had been suspended. On the very same day, Iman Farrokhi was hanged in Tehran for a crime he committed when he was 17.

In one of the most compelling cases of juvenile executions in Iran, a 16-year-old girl, Atefeh Rajabi, was executed on 15 August 2004 for 'acts incompatible with chastity'. Atefeh's trial was seriously flawed, receiving no legal representation and being subjected to insults and condemnation throughout the trial, at one point by the judge.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.as...ArticleID=2113

At least 23 other child offenders reportedly remain on death row in Iran. Their names, and ages (where known) at the times of their alleged crimes are as follows:

1- Beniamin Rasouli, 17
2- Hossein Toranj, 17
3- Hossein Haghi, 17
4- Morteza Feizi, 16
5- Sa’eed Jazee, 17
6- Ali Mahin Torabi, 16
7- Milad Bakhtiari, 16
8- Farshad Sa’eedi, 17
9- Mostafa, 16
10- Mahmoud, 17
11- Saber
12- Hamid, 17
13- Sajjad, 17
14- Farzad, 15
15- Hossein Gharabaghloo, 16
16- Asghar, 16
17- Iman, 17
18- Ne’mat, 15
19- Mohammad Mousavi,
20- Delara Darabi, 17
21- Hamzeh S, 17
22- Shahram Pourmansouri, 17
23- Hedayat Niroumand, 15

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irn-090205-action-eng

Just a few of the slight Cultural Differences to be found in Iran. But it all right provided you dress with modesty.

And before I get classed as a "Warmonger", no, the above are not a reason for going to War with Iran but pretending that, provided we accept a few cultural differences, everything is fine seems to be simply to trivialise matters.

[scotsboy]

I fail to see the thrust of your "argument" Jaws? It seems you have only become interested in the human rights of those you perceive as being wronged in Iran since they "took" (sic) some of our service personnel. There are many more countries in the World with dodgy human rights records. TOf course "they" must be wrong - look they kill children (if I knew how to do a rolling eyes smiley i would)

The regime in Iran I would assume is no more representative of the Iranian people than the Blair government is of those in the UK - there will of course be those who blindly toe the party line and assume everything they are told is fact.

[JAWS]

What I am saying is that the differences between our two cultures runs a little deeper than such facts as we drink alcohol and they don't like women wearing make-up.

I am also aware that there are places in the world with far greater human rights abuse activities than Iran but as far as I am aware they are not under discussion on this Thread.

The examples I posted are mainly from that extremely biased and anti-Iranian Organisation Amnesty International.

As for my interests in Human Rights activities in Iran goes, the recent incident has nothing to do with them and, in fact go back to prior the First Gulf War.

The fact that I have not expressed any opinions on Human Rights in Iran is simply because I have never previously found the requirement.
I am also aware that there is also, and has been for a considerable time, a power struggle between the Politico-Religious Groups and the Politico-Secular Groups in Iran. The reason I add the term "Politico" is that I am sure that the vast majority of the population in Iran would wish for both of the extremes would find some way of accommodating the other. I also used the term to indicate that I do not consider that the attitudes of those with extreme religious views to be representative of Muslims in general although I am sure there are those who will still make that accusation of me.

And no, I don't see all, or even any, Iranians as the "Devil Incarnate", hard as it will be for some people to accept.

Unlike some I do not paint Countries in terms of Black and White and even less so the populations of Countries, unfortunately they all come in varying murky shades of grey.
As for the recent incident, at a Government level, from the point of view of both sides I think the "least said, soonest mended" would be the best action because neither side behaved very well, to say the least!

[scotsboy]

That's a good post Jaws - and I'm glad you gave me your position, as it was not what I took from the other thread above. Thanks.

[JAWS]

Sorry Scotsboy, it must have looked as if it had been directed directly at your previous post, which it wasn't intended to be.

Putting aside all the propaganda and posturing over the incident both the Iranian and the British Authorities behaved like squabbling children.

Working on the assumption that the boundaries between National Waters in that area is, to say the least, a murky area then neither side are able to say with any certainty just who was on which side of the Boundary. (The argument over if or why the Boundary issue is murky is a different question)

Having accepted that there can be no certainty as to who is definitely right or wrong then the Iranians over-reacted by snatching the Sailors in such an area.
Once that had occurred the British also over-reacted by screaming what was, in effect, "Piracy", "Kidnapping", or whatever similar label you wish to put on it.

I suspect that whoever in Iran was in ultimate charge of the Iranian boats was more interested their pecking order in Iranian Politics than creating an International Incident. Our Governments reaction in using what I understand is loosely called "Megaphone Diplomacy" escalated the incident much more than was probably the original intent. That, of course, backed the Iranians into a corner. They could either cave-in and look feeble or they could, and in effect did, tough it out for at least a reasonable time before behaving in "a responsible and reasonable manner", thereby, as somebody said earlier, saving face.
(Don't tell anybody I said that, I'd rather the world saw me as an Unthinking Thug when it comes to those nasty "Johnny Foreigners" or perhaps it should be "Hamish Foreigners" in view of where I stay)

Now things have calmed down I am more inclined to think the whole thing was an all round Cock-up rather than any carefully staged Conspiracy by any of those concerned.