Education in Scotland

[rob murray]

From Joseph Rowntree report :http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jr...tland-full.pdf

‘Little of the variation in student achievement in Scotland is associated with the ways in which schools differ.… Who you are in Scotland is far more important than what school you attend, so far as achievement differences on international tests are concerned. Socio-economic status is the most important difference between individuals.’ or putting it bluntly if you have, chances are your kids will do better than those who have not An analysis of data from different tiers of the educational system shows that the attainment gap in Scotland is pervasive, starting from preschool and widening as children move up through the school system.

See page 49 : National government is in a good position to increase the national focus on low educational achievement in pupils from economically disadvantaged homes. It can direct attention and resources to it, and promote evidence informed knowledge about what works to make education more equitable

Question is...are they doing this ? as quite unequivically the facts are unavoidable, after 7 years of having the direct power to rectify the matter.....Who you are in Scotland is far more important than what school you attend...I notice that the SNP claim curriculum for excellence has been a major step forward....but it doesnt go near socio economic "differences"....more smoke and mirrors Im afraid.

THIS IS NOT A TROLL POST : IF ANYONE IS OFFENDED WITH THE ABOVE PLEASE CONTACT THE JOSEPH ROWNTREE FOUNDATION DIRECTLY

[cptdodger]

From Joseph Rowntree report :http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jr...tland-full.pdf

‘Little of the variation in student achievement in Scotland is associated with the ways in which schools differ.… Who you are in Scotland is far more important than what school you attend, so far as achievement differences on international tests are concerned.

Unless I am misunderstanding what this person is saying (which is possible!) then, what is the point of fee paying schools, such as Gordonstoun, and in my case The High School in Dundee, which I hasten to add I did not attend. Surely there has to be some reason as to why you would spend thousands of pounds a year on your children's education.

That may be a true statement when it comes to schools, but it is not for Universities, I was told by one of the Lecturers that taught Law at Abertay University (Dundee) that a student who attended the same course at St Andrew's University, and ended up with the same degree as somebody at Abertay, would be in a better position to gain a job, because St Andrew's was a more established University. Now that's just his opinion.

[rob murray]

The Rowntree report unfortunately applies to non fee paying schools ie attainment gaps in ordinary state schools.... thats whats so worrying...... education is turning into a post code lottery...your post code and where the school is determines largely a childs educational attainment. Fee paying schools were and are always streets ahead than state schools...again based on who a child is and where they come from ( largely ) and parental involvement especially in paying the fee's. No one from Fettes, Eton, Goronstoun signs on now do they ??? Universities....see them as brand names, ST ANdrews is a bigger brand name than Abertay ( possibly on snob appeal ) and a law BA is the same everywhere, ..... its the same for any course really.... business studies is business studies, yet in Scotland some universities are seen as different / higher value, eg Strathclyde some uni's have better research departments / records than others that another differentiator.

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[cptdodger]

The Rowntree report unfortunately applies to non fee paying schools ie attainment gaps in ordinary state schools.... thats whats so worrying...... education is turning into a post code lottery...your post code and where the school is determines largely a childs educational attainment. Fee paying schools were and are always streets ahead than state schools...again based on who a child is and where they come from ( largely ) and parental involvement especially in paying the fee's. No one from Fettes, Eton, Goronstoun signs on now do they ??? Universities....see them as brand names, ST ANdrews is a bigger brand name than Abertay ( possibly on snob appeal ) and a law BA is the same everywhere, ..... its the same for any course really.... business studies is business studies, yet in Scotland some universities are seen as different / higher value, eg Strathclyde some uni's have better research departments / records than others that another differentiator.

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Oh right I see, I have to say, when I went to school it was the primary nearest to me, then depending on where you lived it was The Grove in Broughty Ferry or Monifieth High. In my daughters case with my grandson (they live in England) she would need a degree to understand the best schools for him, she has gone through all the ofsted reports, which I have to say are not worth the paper they are written on. The first school he went to was fine, the middle school where he is now, not so great, he seems to have had more teachers than I did at Secondary, and he is only 10. The school had glowing reports, within a year put into special measures.

I am so pleased my children are all grown up now, my poor daughter has to do this all again next year when he starts secondary. I think that was what the Lecturer was getting at about the Universities, the courses, are as you say, identical, but it is the snobbery factor. Abertay is for all intense purposes a baby University compared to Dundee and the rest, there is nothing wrong with the place, without it you would'nt have Grand Theft Auto !!

[rob murray]

Oh right I see, I have to say, when I went to school it was the primary nearest to me, then depending on where you lived it was The Grove in Broughty Ferry or Monifieth High. In my daughters case with my grandson (they live in England) she would need a degree to understand the best schools for him, she has gone through all the ofsted reports, which I have to say are not worth the paper they are written on. The first school he went to was fine, the middle school where he is now, not so great, he seems to have had more teachers than I did at Secondary, and he is only 10. The school had glowing reports, within a year put into special measures.

I am so pleased my children are all grown up now, my poor daughter has to do this all again next year when he starts secondary. I think that was what the Lecturer was getting at about the Universities, the courses, are as you say, identical, but it is the snobbery factor. Abertay is for all intense purposes a baby University compared to Dundee and the rest, there is nothing wrong with the place, without it you would'nt have Grand Theft Auto !!

ABertay is seen in Dundee as where you can go if you dont get the grades for Dundee Uni...but ABertay is well known for computer related subjects as you say, so people interested in this discipline will want to go there rather than Dundee. There is snob issue with uni's I went to STrathclyde as a mature student and it is known by some in Glasgow as "the tech" cos it was a tech college / institute many moons ago and Glasgow Uni was established for centuries...you could see the differences in students....Glasgow was all trendy and Strathclyde more "street wise" My youngest daughter got 6 A highers and 2 A advanced highers she applied for ST ANdrews along with a couple of others, she didnt get into St ANdrews, so I phoned admissions for the hell of it and queried ...why ?? I got a load of bull from a spluttering adminstrater....her grades didnt come into it, nor extra school activities, apparently they had to get the balance right between overseas and home students...still couldnt answer the question though why she never got in !! Best thing she did was go to Dundee, as she ended up with a first and moved onto teaching training at JordanHill, is currently progressing a masters in supported learning which she now specialises in ( ie autism children, learning difficulties etc ) and has been teaching for 5 years. Dundee was a great place all round for my kids, education and a great city to be in. The art school there is possibly the best in Scotland as well !!!

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[cptdodger]

My son went to Dundee University, he had the added advantage of my family living there, so although he grew up in England Dundee itself was'nt such a shock for him !! I do'nt know if you know this, but Dundee University was part of St Andrew's University in the early days. I am certainly not saying your daughter's first choice of St Andrew's University was because Prince William and The Duchess Of Cambridge went there, but I bet it swayed some towards it !!

You're right though, Duncan of Jordanstone is second to none, a lot of famous people (in that world) have graduated from there, I believe one was even awarded an Oscar !! Then you have the Dundee Rep, a lot of well known faces have done their acting apprenticeships (for want of a better description) there.

All in all Dundee is not a bad place to start your education. Your daughter has done really well, my son got a 2/2, I was over the moon he was devastated, he was so upset he had'nt done better, no matter how much I told him how proud I was of him. My sister's niece eventually got through to him, she had got a 2/2 as well and pointed out to him that she is now on her way to being Rector of one of the secondary schools in Dundee !!

[rob murray]

My son went to Dundee University, he had the added advantage of my family living there, so although he grew up in England Dundee itself was'nt such a shock for him !! I do'nt know if you know this, but Dundee University was part of St Andrew's University in the early days. I am certainly not saying your daughter's first choice of St Andrew's University was because Prince William and The Duchess Of Cambridge went there, but I bet it swayed some towards it !!

You're right though, Duncan of Jordanstone is second to none, a lot of famous people (in that world) have graduated from there, I believe one was even awarded an Oscar !! Then you have the Dundee Rep, a lot of well known faces have done their acting apprenticeships (for want of a better description) there.

All in all Dundee is not a bad place to start your education. Your daughter has done really well, my son got a 2/2, I was over the moon he was devastated, he was so upset he had'nt done better, no matter how much I told him how proud I was of him. My sister's niece eventually got through to him, she had got a 2/2 as well and pointed out to him that she is now on her way to being Rector of one of the secondary schools in Dundee !!

Yep she's done well, worked really hard, her brother went to Dundee to so she knew the city before she went and ST ANdrews is only over the tay a bit, he got a first as well...so she had competition to catch up with. ALthough she did her post graduate diploma / masters he headed for journalism another traditional city of Dundee specialism. Nah she wasnt a royal groupie lol lol lol ( to think I may have been related to a Price eh lol lol lol : the bad in law !! ) she just fancied it along with Dundee, our post code must have stopped her application !!! Dundee is really great a lot of people dont know how good the uni and city is, nowt wrong with a 2.2, anyway its what you do afterwards in the great big world that counts, like your sisters niece

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[rob murray]

FRom BBS News : The system Scotland uses for the testing of pupils in the classroom will be re-examined, the country's first minister has pledged.Nicola Sturgeon said there needed to be a "national improvement framework" as councils had different approaches.
She believed an improved system would help lead to better pupil attainment.The first minister promised that her government would "close completely" the attainment gap between poor and rich pupils.

So there you have it, an admission from the top that a gap exists..WHY... who let this disgrace happen, so I havent dreamt it up, imagined it or am trolling, its a straightforward acknowledgement of facts from the SNP leader who's government has precided over education for 7 years...no one else to blame but the SNP however she pulls a classic political trick sturgeon wants a review first....some one send her the rowntree report which makes the point of having standardised testing in LA's..something basic thats right in front of her nose...however standardised testing me thinks will lead to dumbing down, as you can bet your bottom dollar that no additional resources will be taken on at LA level...cos they are cash strapped and strangled with red tape ( devouring valuable front line money ) maybe if they paid as much attention to the future wealth generators of Scotland than they do on constitional wranglings we would get somewhere. Still despite this and other messes...NHS next to hit the spotlight ( again ) they get off scot free and will walk next years election. They should be ashamed of themselves...they got the power, but all we get is posturing, grandstanding and posing. Meanwhile a generation is being callously disregarded and written off. As Iain Gray, Labour puts it : "A child starting high school this week will have spent every year of their education under the SNP government and three quarters of S2 pupils from the poorest backgrounds don't have the counting skills they need. . Instead of yet another speech from the first minister, it's time the SNP government actually did something to close the gap between rich and poor in Scotland's schools."

THIS IS NOT A TROLL BUT A FACTUAL STATEMENT BASED ON RECOGNISED SOURCES

[Gronnuck]

Could it be that the disparity in education attainment between the socio-economic groups is because those that ‘have’ recognise the value of education. I have seen very marked differences between parents who make the effort to interact with their children and those parents who abrogate their responsibilities because they can’t/won’t make any effort with their offspring. I can only assume they believe education is someone else’s responsibility.
I suggest any problems are very much more complex than can be assigned to ‘a post code lottery’. Any government, whatever political persuasion, is going to have an uphill struggle against parents who quite frankly couldn’t care less.
Since composing this response I’ve notice this thread has become political and the swords are out for the SNP again. This subject is more important than party politics. As I said ‘Any government, whatever political persuasion,’ will find difficulty in getting parents to engage with schools and teachers for the betterment of their offspring.

[rob murray]

Could it be that the disparity in education attainment between the socio-economic groups is because those that ‘have’ recognise the value of education. I have seen very marked differences between parents who make the effort to interact with their children and those parents who abrogate their responsibilities because they can’t/won’t make any effort with their offspring. I can only assume they believe education is someone else’s responsibility.
I suggest any problems are very much more complex than can be assigned to ‘a post code lottery’. Any government, whatever political persuasion, is going to have an uphill struggle against parents who quite frankly couldn’t care less.
Since composing this response I’ve notice this thread has become political and the swords are out for the SNP again. This subject is more important than party politics. As I said ‘Any government, whatever political persuasion,’ will find difficulty in getting parents to engage with schools and teachers for the betterment of their offspring.

WHilst agreeing with your points on parents 100%, post codes do come into it as in Scotland some post codes are more deprived than others and people have lower expectations, now thats a fact, compare Galsgow post codes for example, life expectancy varies dramtically as does aspiriations, and if you have no hope ....why bother, you still have to agree that education and the now proven gap in attainment, sits squarely with the government...any government... and we have an SNP government, however you put it, they hold the power and responsibility and as stated children starting high school will have spent their entire primary education under an SNP government...so do we look the other way or look for action and hold the government to account, of course its political because the issue has developed under a political party holding power and is now publically ackowledged by its leader who pledges to rectify the situation...if it wasnt political then why should she bother eh ?

[cptdodger]

Could it be that the disparity in education attainment between the socio-economic groups is because those that ‘have’ recognise the value of education. I have seen very marked differences between parents who make the effort to interact with their children and those parents who abrogate their responsibilities because they can’t/won’t make any effort with their offspring. I can only assume they believe education is someone else’s responsibility.
I suggest any problems are very much more complex than can be assigned to ‘a post code lottery’. Any government, whatever political persuasion, is going to have an uphill struggle against parents who quite frankly couldn’t care less.
Since composing this response I’ve notice this thread has become political and the swords are out for the SNP again. This subject is more important than party politics. As I said ‘Any government, whatever political persuasion,’ will find difficulty in getting parents to engage with schools and teachers for the betterment of their offspring.

With the best will in the world, this is under the Politics section and not the General section. I would'nt say the swords are necessarily out for the SNP, but unfortunately as they hold the majority, the buck stops with them, whether it be education, the NHS, or anything else stated in their manifesto, if Nicola Sturgeon does not deliver, well, who are we supposed to blame ?

[rob murray]

With the best will in the world, this is under the Politics section and not the General section. I would'nt say the swords are necessarily out for the SNP, but unfortunately as they hold the majority, the buck stops with them, whether it be education, the NHS, or anything else stated in their manifesto, if Nicola Sturgeon does not deliver, well, who are we supposed to blame ?

Thats the key issue, the government holds the power and responsibility, so have to be held to account ,if we had a labour / LD / Tory government do you honestly think that they would go unchallenged by other parties if they were responsible for this situation, by their own words the SNP claim to be the anti austerity party yet on their 7 year watch an educational attainment gap has increased dramatically between rich and poor by their own admission right from the top..some anti austerity approach that turns out to be, educated kids will get jobs uneducated will struggle / get low paid unskilled jobs, this is avoidable and there is no defense , they the SNP goverment admit there is a problem, they now need to deliver, we need to see what is being done, or do we apply a different set of rules to the SNP...this is ridiculous

[Gronnuck]

My apologies to rob murray and cptdodger I wouldn’t want to interrupt your political carping.
The major problem with our education system is political interference from people in ivory towers fashioning policies that do nothing to contribute and much to hinder progress.
I shall leave you to your chuntering.

[cptdodger]

My apologies to rob murray and cptdodger I wouldn’t want to interrupt your political carping.

I shall leave you to your chuntering.

If you can't engage in a discussion that you may disagree with without resorting to being rude, then fine, off you go then.

[rob murray]

My apologies to rob murray and cptdodger I wouldn’t want to interrupt your political carping.
The major problem with our education system is political interference from people in ivory towers fashioning policies that do nothing to contribute and much to hinder progress.
I shall leave you to your chuntering.

Your not interupring you came on this thread with some good points as acknowledged. But there seems to be one rule for the SNP another for every other party.....education is political ( unfortunatly ) always was and always will be... who pays the geezers in the ivory towers...and who listens to them....governments thats who. Chuntering eh......more slagging !!!

[rob murray]

My apologies to rob murray and cptdodger I wouldn’t want to interrupt your political carping.
The major problem with our education system is political interference from people in ivory towers fashioning policies that do nothing to contribute and much to hinder progress.
I shall leave you to your chuntering.

Just noticed your Mary Black qoute....and cannot see how you can dismiss education attainment and lack of, between rich / poor and your / her foodbanks quote.....the kids of parents going to foodbanks are of course high achievers...I think not.....no one should have to go anywhere near a foodback and everyone desreves an equal chance in the educational system and thats not happening is it, you seem oblivious to the irony of using that statement and pretending education is not political because your party ( must be SNP using a Mary Black quote ) have had 7 long years to try and sort the mess out.....

[cptdodger]

I had to check the meaning of that word, we do'nt use it where I come from, I can see why now - chuntering "to talk in a low inarticulate way" wow. However as this person is clearly an SNP voter, that, I presume is perfectly acceptable behaviour.

[rob murray]

I had to check the meaning of that word, we do'nt use it where I come from, I can see why now - chuntering "to talk in a low inarticulate way" wow. However as this person is clearly an SNP voter, that, I presume is perfectly acceptable behaviour.

Yep I know, still when people cant "get" you, they resort to cheap shots, so we win dont we, as thats all he /she could come back with lol lol lol

[squidge]

According to the report, there is little evidence that families in deprived areas have lower hopes or aspiration for their children. The report says that families in poverty "do not have the social or economic capital or know how to achieve these goals "

This report also unequivocally sets out the link between poverty and deprivation and poor educational attainment. It is absolutely right. It also states that "increases in parental income directly lead to increases in educational attainment of children living in poverty" Anti poverty policies, policies which support parents in low income households plus good quality affordable pre school education for children are the most important issues when trying to increase the attainment of children in school and their destinations out of school.

What is interesting also is that there is evidence of lots of different programmes exist to support children and families but that evaluations of these programmes is patchy. We need to be better at this whilst recognising that what works in Easterhouse, may not work in Caithness and avoiding the drive to "do something" by implementing a one size fits all solution across Scotland.

I also am interested to see that where children are grouped according to ability there is very little impact on attainment and where children are placed in mixed ability and mixed socio economic groups they perform better. A really interesting report which shows that educational attainment for children cannot be looked at in isolation outside economic and welfare policy. Thanks for sharing.

[rob murray]

Thats more like it civility !! Yes its a good report undertaken by a very creditible long established organistion which makes the consensually accepted point that educational attainment for children cannot be looked at in isolation outside economic and welfare policy, so integrated joined up government thinking is required. Contrary to what some would believe, education, by definition, is "political". I agree a one size fits all, top / down imposed model, driven by what an LA can "afford" wont work. Government has a core and key role to play here, unavoidable and hence open to debate and attention.